Non-Consent
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tryn2Bgood
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I don't think writers are responsible for conveying any specific messages about anything, good or bad. When writing fiction, you can write whatever you want. People who are interested in that can read it and think whatever they want. People who don't like it can not read it, or read it anyway and criticize it.
What you write, or how you write it, comes down to purpose and intent. If you're writing to cater to a certain audience, then you would tailor the story to appeal to that group. No need to explain, defend, or water it down so other people will like it too. If you're writing something to persuade or influence people into thinking a certain way, then by all means, do your best to be convincing. If you 'want' people to see forced sex as just a fun kink...well, ok. You have the right (maybe not the ability) to depict it that way.
Personally, when I write something my goal is to make the reader feel. That might include making them happy, sad, excited, hopeful, angry, or even conflicted, depending on the topic. Evoking the desired emotions means it was well written. That being said, I wouldn't write a story that depicted rape as a good thing because I don't want to make anyone feel that way.
What if a serial rapist wrote a book detailing the euphoric feelings he experienced...described why it was so appealing to him, or how irresistible the urge to satisfy those desires was. What if, in his demented mind, he truly believed all his victims wanted it to happen...desired it as much as he did? Would you suggest that book never be published? Someone else with those tendencies might use it to justify their own urges and commit the same crime. Then again, it could be useful information for police, profilers, psychologists, and others to use in preventing those crimes. But I don't think it would convince most people to say, "Well, maybe rape isn't so bad. Sounds like fun!"
I think the same is true for a work of fiction/fantasy. It's doubtful any such stories could sway someone's opinion of right or wrong, fantasy or reality...especially with a topic people already have such strong opinions on.
What you write, or how you write it, comes down to purpose and intent. If you're writing to cater to a certain audience, then you would tailor the story to appeal to that group. No need to explain, defend, or water it down so other people will like it too. If you're writing something to persuade or influence people into thinking a certain way, then by all means, do your best to be convincing. If you 'want' people to see forced sex as just a fun kink...well, ok. You have the right (maybe not the ability) to depict it that way.
Personally, when I write something my goal is to make the reader feel. That might include making them happy, sad, excited, hopeful, angry, or even conflicted, depending on the topic. Evoking the desired emotions means it was well written. That being said, I wouldn't write a story that depicted rape as a good thing because I don't want to make anyone feel that way.
What if a serial rapist wrote a book detailing the euphoric feelings he experienced...described why it was so appealing to him, or how irresistible the urge to satisfy those desires was. What if, in his demented mind, he truly believed all his victims wanted it to happen...desired it as much as he did? Would you suggest that book never be published? Someone else with those tendencies might use it to justify their own urges and commit the same crime. Then again, it could be useful information for police, profilers, psychologists, and others to use in preventing those crimes. But I don't think it would convince most people to say, "Well, maybe rape isn't so bad. Sounds like fun!"
I think the same is true for a work of fiction/fantasy. It's doubtful any such stories could sway someone's opinion of right or wrong, fantasy or reality...especially with a topic people already have such strong opinions on.
MeekMe
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Actually, a rapist did write about his encounters. He didn't call it rape though, he called it primal play. He wrote about how much the women loved being abused by him. Some of them did love it. The ones that didn't find it so fun were threatened and silenced by his fan club. He published a book on Amazon and had a wildly popular blog profile. The profile and the book are down because they're evidence now. The people reading his encounters thought everything was great. He's so sexy and edgy because he doesn't stop when they say no or beg to stop. I'm sure the one he tortured into agreeing to an act she said was a hard limit felt great when his fans went out of their way to discredit and harass her.
Not calling it rape makes a huge difference.
As a personal note, lit's non-con/reluctance category is kind of crap. I HATE when the character enjoys some or all of it. Completely ruins it and sends the message that if you just throw in enough orgasms the character will eventually like their situation. Basically, I have to either stop reading part of the way or skip/ignore the parts where they like it. Makes for shit reading.
Not calling it rape makes a huge difference.
As a personal note, lit's non-con/reluctance category is kind of crap. I HATE when the character enjoys some or all of it. Completely ruins it and sends the message that if you just throw in enough orgasms the character will eventually like their situation. Basically, I have to either stop reading part of the way or skip/ignore the parts where they like it. Makes for shit reading.
CyranoJ
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I wouldn't expect someone to reach that conclusion simply out of reading a book, no. Would I hope a real-life victimizer was kept from profiting off his victims' misery in publication? Yeah, actually.
(Here's something I think is a positive: there are jurisdictions in England considering making misogyny -- sexist abuse, harassment, boasting about rape et cetera -- prosecutable as a hate crime. Which is fair game because misogyny has in fact been the gateway drug in radicalizing many current neo-fascists, the Proud Boys and "red-pillers" and neo-Nazis and MRAs and general vile parade of scum-baggery that constitutes the Alt Reich. Going out and publishing nonfiction books boasting about how many people you raped would plausibly qualify under those guidelines and if it did, I wouldn't have any problem with similar standards being adopted elsewhere. That's a radically different business from publishing fiction or fantasy.)
CyranoJ
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So... after engaging in several rounds of straw manning, hyperbole and misplaced indignation, that's you flouncing from a discussion because the other party went out and used the interwebs for actual research. Oookay. That's... a shame. Could've gone better.
(I know, I know. I shouldn't bother either. Not to worry, silly gifs were invented for precisely the sort of situation where people actually no-foolin' say "take a cookie from a jar" to someone putting some effort into backing up their opinion with fact. Here you go.)
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Nezhul
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1) he's ignoring me because he couldn't prove a point once. So he will only reply to half of the things I said and will completely skip the rest - where it is convenient to him. Been there, done that.
2) his links are half of the time cosmopolitan articles and not a real study
3) Bramblethorn will make point A, then when I reply he will say, "Yes, but here's point B". When I reply to that he would return to point A as if it wasnt discussed just 3 posts ago. And he will do so in a circle over and over until the opponent gets tired and THEN he will have the last word in a conversation, saying how he'd won.
4) He will take 1 sentence or even 1 phrase from a post, twist it around or nitpick in it with a child's logic. Completely ignoring all the rest. He will prefer answering wittingly to 1 point out of 10, completely ignoring that he can't really find an argument for everything else.
5)He's a troll, and I will not reply to his posts. He thrives in making himself look smarter than the rest, and his most used tool - are 10 links in each post, because links make everything look better.
6) He's also a self-proclaimed genious and a wise person who should take money from everyone he disagrees with for teaching them and clarifying their misconceptions - and I'm not shitting here, he did say that.
You are welcome to comment on his points favourably, and I may discuss it with you. But I will not bother answering to a troll who stands above all mortals in his unshakable wisdom.
2) his links are half of the time cosmopolitan articles and not a real study
3) Bramblethorn will make point A, then when I reply he will say, "Yes, but here's point B". When I reply to that he would return to point A as if it wasnt discussed just 3 posts ago. And he will do so in a circle over and over until the opponent gets tired and THEN he will have the last word in a conversation, saying how he'd won.
4) He will take 1 sentence or even 1 phrase from a post, twist it around or nitpick in it with a child's logic. Completely ignoring all the rest. He will prefer answering wittingly to 1 point out of 10, completely ignoring that he can't really find an argument for everything else.
5)He's a troll, and I will not reply to his posts. He thrives in making himself look smarter than the rest, and his most used tool - are 10 links in each post, because links make everything look better.
6) He's also a self-proclaimed genious and a wise person who should take money from everyone he disagrees with for teaching them and clarifying their misconceptions - and I'm not shitting here, he did say that.
You are welcome to comment on his points favourably, and I may discuss it with you. But I will not bother answering to a troll who stands above all mortals in his unshakable wisdom.
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tryn2Bgood
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I hadn't heard about that case. Sounds pretty messed up. I did assume that type of book had already been written by someone somewhere, followed by controversy. And in that case, I guess it was useful...as evidence.
Yeah, the profiting from a crime does kind of throw a wrench in it, but if no real names or specific likenesses were mentioned and there were regulations against receiving a profit from crimes against humanity, I would not be opposed to having such material printed. In fact, I would even be interested in reading it just to have a look inside their mind...from a research point of view. (Also, when I mentioned this example I was referring to already self-confessed and convicted criminals...not someone trying to get away with it, but someone expressing their thoughts and reasons behind why they did it.)
I actually think categorizing those examples as prosecutable hate crimes is a good idea, although it would probably be difficult to get enough tangible evidence for a conviction in most cases.
CyranoJ
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@Nezhul: Uh, I think I'll decline the offer to be a messenger between you and another poster, thanks all the same.
FWICT none of the links in the posts you just flipped out at are Cosmo links and it looks to me like all of them are on point and worthy of attention. I personally have never felt any reason to regard Bramble as a troll and if you think it's them and not you who's coming off as rhetorically, uh, inexact here -- and I'm telling you this as someone disposed toward you in friendly fashion -- you're mistaken.
I don't think you're being malicious or deliberately dickish or anything, I think most of what is happening here is simple misunderstanding. IMO you would benefit from backing up and doing a little re-read and a rethink. But hey, it's your call of course.
FWICT none of the links in the posts you just flipped out at are Cosmo links and it looks to me like all of them are on point and worthy of attention. I personally have never felt any reason to regard Bramble as a troll and if you think it's them and not you who's coming off as rhetorically, uh, inexact here -- and I'm telling you this as someone disposed toward you in friendly fashion -- you're mistaken.
I don't think you're being malicious or deliberately dickish or anything, I think most of what is happening here is simple misunderstanding. IMO you would benefit from backing up and doing a little re-read and a rethink. But hey, it's your call of course.
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Nezhul
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I feel it's a missunderstanding too. As I said, there's not argument here as long as no one says that the writer must include a clear message in his books or must depict some topics (that are known to be crimes by any sane man) as explicitly bad ones just for the sake of covering up possible misunderstandings.
As long as we can agree that the writer can write whatever he wants as long as he doesn't promote or justify rape (and crime in general) - I don't have anything else to prove.
As for Bramblethorn - you just never got to disagree with him strongly and then try to have a conversation. At first he will try and make civilized dialogue (with links and stuff), but if you don't fall to your knees and accept that he's right - he will very soon become annoyed and start trolling, attacking the weakest points of your arguments while ignoring all others, often times by quoting part of your post and twisting it around 180 degrees. Or nitpicking at words, as well as attacking someone personally with statements that have nothing to do with the discussion.
Seen that happen to me, seen that happen to others. Not gonna talk with him, especially now that he has an excuse of ignoring me to quote only those parts of my posts that he feels like he can safely debunk.
He's a troll when he can't get someone to agree with him fast. He's one of those people who seem great guys as long as you don't have a disagreement - and then you find out he's full of rotten shit.
As long as we can agree that the writer can write whatever he wants as long as he doesn't promote or justify rape (and crime in general) - I don't have anything else to prove.
As for Bramblethorn - you just never got to disagree with him strongly and then try to have a conversation. At first he will try and make civilized dialogue (with links and stuff), but if you don't fall to your knees and accept that he's right - he will very soon become annoyed and start trolling, attacking the weakest points of your arguments while ignoring all others, often times by quoting part of your post and twisting it around 180 degrees. Or nitpicking at words, as well as attacking someone personally with statements that have nothing to do with the discussion.
Seen that happen to me, seen that happen to others. Not gonna talk with him, especially now that he has an excuse of ignoring me to quote only those parts of my posts that he feels like he can safely debunk.
He's a troll when he can't get someone to agree with him fast. He's one of those people who seem great guys as long as you don't have a disagreement - and then you find out he's full of rotten shit.
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Bramblethorn
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Yeah, this is almost every discussion with Nezhul. He posts something counterfactual, somebody debunks it with actual evidence, he declares contempt for any source of information outside his own feelpinions.
I mostly have him on ignore, but occasionally if I'm logged out or somebody quotes him I'll see something that needs to be challenged.
Bramblethorn
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FWIW, here below is the post Nezhul is referring to. As can be seen, his summary of it is... rather a long way from truthful. I cited consulting rates to him, and only him.
As for "self-proclaimed genious (sic)", that's an outright fabrication; I've never said anything remotely like that. FWIW, I think "genius" is a lazy word and vastly overused.
And now back to my usual policy of ignoring the shameless liar in the corner.
LeandraNyx
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Nezhul
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[Material prohibited per our forum guidelines.]
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Gotham_Central
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Can one of you please tell me how in Hades a simple thread asking about A GENRE OF EROTIC FICTION... has gone so far off the rails?
Anyone care to discuss the original question?
Anyone care to discuss the original question?
Nezhul
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Yea sure. Got carried away.
Well, the original question has pretty much been discussed thoroughly already, don't you think?
CyranoJ
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Oh god please stop and go away and read something, dude. Or just... stop. This is like watching someone jump headfirst into a wood-chipper.
Gotham_Central
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Who can know?
The degree to which some rants cluttered the thread made me not want to read the thread and I asked the freakin' question!
Nezhul
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You are welcome to disagree.
I'm aware that my post is controversial, but I'm fine with that. Controversial things need to be discussed, even if only for my opinion to be banished into oblivion.
It's a valid opinion, even if it stands against what a lot of people were trained to think of as unshakable truths.
And hell, maybe I'm wrong even. And maybe someone can persuade me - I have no problems with that. But for now, I'm standing by my words.
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Gotham_Central
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You are welcome to disagree.
I'm aware that my post is controversial, but I'm fine with that. Controversial things need to be discussed, even if only for my opinion to be banished into oblivion.
It's a valid opinion, even if it stands against what a lot of people were trained to think.
Dude, I myself have plenty of "controversial" views and I post them from time to time.
But I try to post them in the threads where they belong!
Not just seize any moment to express my self described expertise.
Fiction, dude. I asked about Consensual Non-Consent in FICTION!
You went so far out in left field your not in the parking lot, you're out back of the Chinese place two blocks away!
LeandraNyx
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LeandraNyx
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CyranoJ
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Forgiving as Lit is, I'm pretty sure that demanding people educate you as to what's the difference between taking a kid's lunch money and engaging in statutory rape is both well over the line as regards the Forum rules and just straight bonkers. I was trying to cut you some slack but sorry, that's gonna be a hard no.
Nezhul
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I'll just say that there's no use to argue with a person who can go to such heights of hypocrisy.
Now go on, make the next sthep, say that being a woman is being mentally handicapped too, because of all the hormones and emotions that cloud one's judgment.
