G
Guest
Guest
Muy suave, hombre.janus40s said:
Perdita
Now it has happened
- Thread starter Svenskaflicka
- Start date
Perdita
Svenskaflicka
Fountain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2002
- Posts
- 16,142
I'm proud to have started such a deep and important debate.
I was touched by the story of the guy who felt violated when the woman tricked him into "getting surrounded" - the only expression I can think of as being equal to a female "getting penetrated".
I feel sorry for the guy, and I think it was an excellent example not only of the fact that sometimes, guys just don't feel like having sex, for whatever reason, and not having that will met with respect, makes them feel hurt and violated - degraded, even!
Excellent put, Ice.
I take a wow, that the first Immunity I get this year, will go to Non-Consent.
Yes.
Even before Lesbian Sex!
(No offense!)
I was touched by the story of the guy who felt violated when the woman tricked him into "getting surrounded" - the only expression I can think of as being equal to a female "getting penetrated".
I feel sorry for the guy, and I think it was an excellent example not only of the fact that sometimes, guys just don't feel like having sex, for whatever reason, and not having that will met with respect, makes them feel hurt and violated - degraded, even!
Excellent put, Ice.
I take a wow, that the first Immunity I get this year, will go to Non-Consent.
Yes.
Even before Lesbian Sex!
(No offense!)
G
Guest
Guest
You are unbelievably darling, Svenskamou. No one's "voice" affects me like yours.Svenskaflicka said:Even before Lesbian Sex!
P.
Svenskaflicka
Fountain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2002
- Posts
- 16,142
With this cold I'm having, it would have a fun effect on most people!
Gary Chambers
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 374
Craters on my full moon
Your wish is my command.
I think your first instinct was right, and I suspect the Norwegian lad is either having a campy lark with the court system or is some kind of sexually confused gender bender.
Svenska, an erection alone doesn't signal consent. I wake up with a shocking stiffy every morning, most men do. It's just involuntary body function resulting from our bodies being rested and primed for a marathon. What signals consent is the fact he went to a party and fell asleep in mixed company. If I was concerned about being fondled by a horny woman without my permission, I would not attend a party where women are relaxing perhaps with intoxicants that reduce their inhibitions, then fall asleep among them, displaying my ignorance and bad manners and thereby inviting their ribald humour and lusty little pranks at my expense. Women are sexual creatures, thank the Holy Spook. The puritanical pretense that they are all innocent lambs, constantly at the mercy of uncontrollable male libidos, is an insult to both sexes. This Norwegian Noddy should have known that, and if not he should thank the lass for teaching him in such a fun way.
As Perdita pointed out, there is a deep psychological difference between being penetrated and being fondled, to say nothing of the risks of unwanted pregnancy or contamination with a sexually transmitted disease. Did he awake to find her probing his back passage with a strap-on? No he did not. Was she rubbing her button on his parted lips? Not by the sound of it.
Rape? Yeah right, and my ass is a dartboard.
perdita said:
Your wish is my command.
I think your first instinct was right, and I suspect the Norwegian lad is either having a campy lark with the court system or is some kind of sexually confused gender bender.
Svenska, an erection alone doesn't signal consent. I wake up with a shocking stiffy every morning, most men do. It's just involuntary body function resulting from our bodies being rested and primed for a marathon. What signals consent is the fact he went to a party and fell asleep in mixed company. If I was concerned about being fondled by a horny woman without my permission, I would not attend a party where women are relaxing perhaps with intoxicants that reduce their inhibitions, then fall asleep among them, displaying my ignorance and bad manners and thereby inviting their ribald humour and lusty little pranks at my expense. Women are sexual creatures, thank the Holy Spook. The puritanical pretense that they are all innocent lambs, constantly at the mercy of uncontrollable male libidos, is an insult to both sexes. This Norwegian Noddy should have known that, and if not he should thank the lass for teaching him in such a fun way.
As Perdita pointed out, there is a deep psychological difference between being penetrated and being fondled, to say nothing of the risks of unwanted pregnancy or contamination with a sexually transmitted disease. Did he awake to find her probing his back passage with a strap-on? No he did not. Was she rubbing her button on his parted lips? Not by the sound of it.
Rape? Yeah right, and my ass is a dartboard.
minsue
Gosling
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2002
- Posts
- 22,062
Re: Craters on my full moon
I absolutely, positively must disagree with the statement that falling asleep at a party in mixed company signals consent. Am I hopefully just missing a joke here since sarcastic tone of voice doesn't come through in the postings??? If not, it's the same as all of those who claim a woman deserved to be raped based on her clothing, her location, the fact that she made eye contact, or myraid other bizarre reasons.
- Mindy
Gary Chambers said:Your wish is my command.
I think your first instinct was right, and I suspect the Norwegian lad is either having a campy lark with the court system or is some kind of sexually confused gender bender.
Svenska, an erection alone doesn't signal consent. I wake up with a shocking stiffy every morning, most men do. It's just involuntary body function resulting from our bodies being rested and primed for a marathon. What signals consent is the fact he went to a party and fell asleep in mixed company. If I was concerned about being fondled by a horny woman without my permission, I would not attend a party where women are relaxing perhaps with intoxicants that reduce their inhibitions, then fall asleep among them, displaying my ignorance and bad manners and thereby inviting their ribald humour and lusty little pranks at my expense. Women are sexual creatures, thank the Holy Spook. The puritanical pretense that they are all innocent lambs, constantly at the mercy of uncontrollable male libidos, is an insult to both sexes. This Norwegian Noddy should have known that, and if not he should thank the lass for teaching him in such a fun way.
As Perdita pointed out, there is a deep psychological difference between being penetrated and being fondled, to say nothing of the risks of unwanted pregnancy or contamination with a sexually transmitted disease. Did he awake to find her probing his back passage with a strap-on? No he did not. Was she rubbing her button on his parted lips? Not by the sound of it.
Rape? Yeah right, and my ass is a dartboard.
I absolutely, positively must disagree with the statement that falling asleep at a party in mixed company signals consent. Am I hopefully just missing a joke here since sarcastic tone of voice doesn't come through in the postings??? If not, it's the same as all of those who claim a woman deserved to be raped based on her clothing, her location, the fact that she made eye contact, or myraid other bizarre reasons.
- Mindy
Gary Chambers
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 374
Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Mindy, treasure
He wasn't raped. He was fondled. The ignorant little gutter snipe went to a social gathering and insulted everyone by falling asleep. Svenska didn't say he was drunk or stoned, but I'd lay you decent odds on it. Some gal, with an admittedly bold sense of humour 'fondled' him. She did not invade him. She did not break him down and force him to plead for mercy, only to scoff at his pain and continue slaking her thirst. She did not climb through his bedroom window with her pantyhose stretched over her head, and hold a stilleto to his terrified throat while she probed his inner sanctums. The lady is a tramp, I'll give you that, but she appears to have been in like company. This Norwegian boy just needs to develop a taste for Sinatra.
Stop and try to imagine your entire sex on the outside of your body, and try to imagine that same reproductive organ shoots your eggs like missiles instead of incubating them. Imagine you have no practical holes for sex except your anus and mouth, only equipment to excavate the holes of others. Think how these things might change your definition of being invaded.
I pity this poor girl. She lets down her guard and approaches the opposite sex on equal terms, trusting as she is so often expected to do herself, that the boy involved will laugh with her when he hears what she did. Instead he wakes up like some demented bear fresh out of hybernation and calls for lawyers, guns and money. Your sense of justice and desire for everyone to be equal under the law is admirable, Mindy, but those sentiments are far too valuable and rare to waste on some nerdy little twerp who thinks his pecker is a holy shrine too pure for her sort. If he was that worthy of your kind consideration he would have stayed awake and been sociable, instead of snubbing everyone with his slumber.
This wasn't some dirty geezer copping a feel on a crowded commuter train. This was a young woman giving a young man better treatment than he deserved; treatment the rest of the male population seems only too anxious for. Most of all, he was not penetrated. His body wasn't invaded, his trousers were. This was an assault against trousers.
minsue said:
Mindy, treasure
He wasn't raped. He was fondled. The ignorant little gutter snipe went to a social gathering and insulted everyone by falling asleep. Svenska didn't say he was drunk or stoned, but I'd lay you decent odds on it. Some gal, with an admittedly bold sense of humour 'fondled' him. She did not invade him. She did not break him down and force him to plead for mercy, only to scoff at his pain and continue slaking her thirst. She did not climb through his bedroom window with her pantyhose stretched over her head, and hold a stilleto to his terrified throat while she probed his inner sanctums. The lady is a tramp, I'll give you that, but she appears to have been in like company. This Norwegian boy just needs to develop a taste for Sinatra.
Stop and try to imagine your entire sex on the outside of your body, and try to imagine that same reproductive organ shoots your eggs like missiles instead of incubating them. Imagine you have no practical holes for sex except your anus and mouth, only equipment to excavate the holes of others. Think how these things might change your definition of being invaded.
I pity this poor girl. She lets down her guard and approaches the opposite sex on equal terms, trusting as she is so often expected to do herself, that the boy involved will laugh with her when he hears what she did. Instead he wakes up like some demented bear fresh out of hybernation and calls for lawyers, guns and money. Your sense of justice and desire for everyone to be equal under the law is admirable, Mindy, but those sentiments are far too valuable and rare to waste on some nerdy little twerp who thinks his pecker is a holy shrine too pure for her sort. If he was that worthy of your kind consideration he would have stayed awake and been sociable, instead of snubbing everyone with his slumber.
This wasn't some dirty geezer copping a feel on a crowded commuter train. This was a young woman giving a young man better treatment than he deserved; treatment the rest of the male population seems only too anxious for. Most of all, he was not penetrated. His body wasn't invaded, his trousers were. This was an assault against trousers.
Re: Craters on my full moon
Even then, it would be inappropriate to start right off with the genetalia.
I make the distinction about nakedness because I want the freedom to be naked in a hot tub full of naked women and have one of them caress my leg *as an overture*.
Hmmmm... now I'm done fantasizing...
No, it takes more than that. In the situation of falling asleep in mixed company, if the genders were reversed, we would fault a man for fondling a sleeping woman. And well we should.Gary Chambers said:
Adding the intoxication mitigates this a bit, but not by much. If both were seriously snockered and both were awake, and both were naked, an initial fondle might be forgiven. *Mutual* drunkness adds the element of a forgivable *momentary* lapse of judgement. But if the fondled one said 'no', then it stops.
Even then, it would be inappropriate to start right off with the genetalia.
I make the distinction about nakedness because I want the freedom to be naked in a hot tub full of naked women and have one of them caress my leg *as an overture*.
Hmmmm... now I'm done fantasizing...
On this point, in isolation, I agree. It is demeaning to apply a different standard to women, simply because they are women.
Gary Chambers
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 374
Not even an orgasm for her effort
I fully agree on this point, Janus. It's always best to be awake and sober too when embarking on a sensual experience with a lover. We both know a woman doesn't want the failure of a futile attempt to overcome our brewers droop, any more than we need the shame of it. And your hot tub fantasy identifies you as a sensualist too. I'm just suggesting that perhaps this young woman is exactly the same as us, but lacked the experience to know exactly how to go about it. She had the bad luck to test herself not on a true sensualist (a real man) who might have shown her compassion through good humour, even if he later pointed out that she owed him one, but on a litigant fop who apparently considers his jeans a temple. So the lad's feelings are hurt. Does that mean a sensuous young woman trying to learn how to express her glorious lust should face the threat of 15 years of porridge? We both know there is a constant shortage of bad girls. My heart goes out to her. From what I've heard of this case, I see her as a Norwegian Monica Lewinsky, dragged into the rapacious glare of publicity and legal catharsis, but without even the satisfaction of having earned those presidential wings. If we were Norwegian jurors locked in camera we might be at each other's throats over it Janus, but happily we're just a pair of smutmeisters, and the world is eager to ignore us both. We can agree to disagree.
janus40s said:
I fully agree on this point, Janus. It's always best to be awake and sober too when embarking on a sensual experience with a lover. We both know a woman doesn't want the failure of a futile attempt to overcome our brewers droop, any more than we need the shame of it. And your hot tub fantasy identifies you as a sensualist too. I'm just suggesting that perhaps this young woman is exactly the same as us, but lacked the experience to know exactly how to go about it. She had the bad luck to test herself not on a true sensualist (a real man) who might have shown her compassion through good humour, even if he later pointed out that she owed him one, but on a litigant fop who apparently considers his jeans a temple. So the lad's feelings are hurt. Does that mean a sensuous young woman trying to learn how to express her glorious lust should face the threat of 15 years of porridge? We both know there is a constant shortage of bad girls. My heart goes out to her. From what I've heard of this case, I see her as a Norwegian Monica Lewinsky, dragged into the rapacious glare of publicity and legal catharsis, but without even the satisfaction of having earned those presidential wings. If we were Norwegian jurors locked in camera we might be at each other's throats over it Janus, but happily we're just a pair of smutmeisters, and the world is eager to ignore us both. We can agree to disagree.
Icingsugar
peas o kayk
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
- Posts
- 2,051
Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Let's say that we have this. A young, pretty woman goes to a party, gets herself properly drunk as party-goers sometimes do, and ends up sound asleep in a bed or sofa or whatnot, knocked out cold by mr Booze.
Now, here comes Joe Schmuck, a fairly handsome young man in his own right. But young mr Schmuck is also a, well, a schmuck. A horny bastard with no respect for such things as personal privacy.
Now Joe spots this yong sleeping beauty, sneaks up to her, sees that she is asleep, and starts probing her panties, maybe takes a squeeze or two on those nice tits of hers too.
Ya think she'd apprecitare that? Is he giving her "a better treatment than she deserves"?
I agree, this is not rape in the sense that the word is used today, but it is clearly some kind of sexual abuse going on. And mr Schmuck deserves at least to be slapped around a bit.
Now just switch gender on the two combatants. It's as easy as that.
Now, the proper way for Joe Schmuck, or the lady in Bergen would of course had been to wake the guy/girl up and ask "Wanna fuck?" (or maybe something a little more tasteful). If "yes", do like the monkeys. If "no" make like a tree, leave, and try someone else.
Do I really need a DUH here?
Alrighty, let's see what happend then. (and forgive me for being lecturing here)Gary Chambers said:This wasn't some dirty geezer copping a feel on a crowded commuter train. This was a young woman giving a young man better treatment than he deserved; treatment the rest of the male population seems only too anxious for. Most of all, he was not penetrated. His body wasn't invaded, his trousers were. This was an assault against trousers.
Let's say that we have this. A young, pretty woman goes to a party, gets herself properly drunk as party-goers sometimes do, and ends up sound asleep in a bed or sofa or whatnot, knocked out cold by mr Booze.
Now, here comes Joe Schmuck, a fairly handsome young man in his own right. But young mr Schmuck is also a, well, a schmuck. A horny bastard with no respect for such things as personal privacy.
Now Joe spots this yong sleeping beauty, sneaks up to her, sees that she is asleep, and starts probing her panties, maybe takes a squeeze or two on those nice tits of hers too.
Ya think she'd apprecitare that? Is he giving her "a better treatment than she deserves"?
I agree, this is not rape in the sense that the word is used today, but it is clearly some kind of sexual abuse going on. And mr Schmuck deserves at least to be slapped around a bit.
Now just switch gender on the two combatants. It's as easy as that.
Now, the proper way for Joe Schmuck, or the lady in Bergen would of course had been to wake the guy/girl up and ask "Wanna fuck?" (or maybe something a little more tasteful). If "yes", do like the monkeys. If "no" make like a tree, leave, and try someone else.
Do I really need a DUH here?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Indulge me, please, what is the significance of the new AV?
Perdita (drinking Beaujolais still)
oops, just read the wording over the AV, uh, cool.
Cakebloke-no-longer: I know you write poetry but where the fuck does leaving like a tree come from? I'm giggling still.Icingsugar said:
Indulge me, please, what is the significance of the new AV?
Perdita (drinking Beaujolais still)
oops, just read the wording over the AV, uh, cool.
Icingsugar
peas o kayk
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
- Posts
- 2,051
Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
sip some more of that for me,
/Ice
Have you never heard the expression "Make like a tree, and leave." ??perdita said:
Just tried to make a poetess giggle in another forum. I succeded. Yay for me.
sip some more of that for me,
/Ice
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Perdita (I wish there were a wine glass smilie)
No, but now I have and I just 'got' it. Giggle. (Gee, that reminds me, I miss Lorri, *giggle*)Icingsugar said:
Perdita (I wish there were a wine glass smilie)
destinie21
Daddy's Brat
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Posts
- 3,612
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
That's the cutest thing I have heard all night Dita
perdita said:
That's the cutest thing I have heard all night Dita
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Perdita
Uh, thanks, Dest, but I work so hard to keep away from cute.destinie21 said:That's the cutest thing I have heard all night Dita
Perdita
Icingsugar
peas o kayk
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2003
- Posts
- 2,051
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Where HAS Lorri run off to by the way?
Splendid! That's the third lovely lady I've gotten to giggle here on the boards tonight. I'm on a roll!perdita said:
Where HAS Lorri run off to by the way?
wishfulthinking
Misbehaving
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 1,972
Thank you.
I have to say I've been converted. I said earlier that I believed that physical damage sustained by a women would be far greater than any injury suffered by a male raped by a women, simply because a woman took a man/object inside of her, and men were stronger. After reading everyone's views, I'm convinced otherwise. Damage inflicted on a male's member, even though external, can be just as brutal and vicious, but perhaps rarer.
I have to say I've been converted. I said earlier that I believed that physical damage sustained by a women would be far greater than any injury suffered by a male raped by a women, simply because a woman took a man/object inside of her, and men were stronger. After reading everyone's views, I'm convinced otherwise. Damage inflicted on a male's member, even though external, can be just as brutal and vicious, but perhaps rarer.
Gary Chambers
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 374
Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
Wishful,
I'm not trying to be argumentative, because I've already accepted that the assumption of sinister intentions could be correct, no matter how unlikely it seems to me. Nevertheless, I'm curious to know what great physical damage you feel would be done by her fondling. I'm just concerned I may be missing some aspect I haven't even considered.
No, of course not Ice. The scenario you created left little doubt as to the level of guilt and lack of mitigating circumstances. The problem is that we don't know enough about the case. I'm leaning toward the assumption we are looking at a case of adolescent inexperience and poor judgment, and others I think are seeing something more sinister. I admit either situation could be correct. Maybe as time goes by more details will reach us. Until then it remains a case of agreeing to disagree.Icingsugar said:Do I really need a DUH here?
Wishful,
I'm not trying to be argumentative, because I've already accepted that the assumption of sinister intentions could be correct, no matter how unlikely it seems to me. Nevertheless, I'm curious to know what great physical damage you feel would be done by her fondling. I'm just concerned I may be missing some aspect I haven't even considered.
wishfulthinking
Misbehaving
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 1,972
Hi Gary, I don't in the least equate the fondling described here as rape (in my mind means penetrative) or sexual harassment (eg. inappropriate non-consensual conduct in the workplace such as pinching, making suggestions), but rather as sexual assault, or perhaps attempted rape (if she had the intention to follow through).
Sorry to confuse you! I meant that a man being raped by a woman - that is taking him inside her, inserting an object anally etc - is capable of suffering great physical harm, albeit of a different nature.
Linbido
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2003
- Posts
- 515
Re: Re: Re: Excuse me, is this where one gets an argument?
That's abuse enough for me. A gentleman or genltewoman don't pull stunts like that. Not even when young and dumb.
I read the article in a Norweigan newspaper. What we do know is, alledgedly - noone is convicted of anything afaik, that subject A groped and fondled subject B's genitals fully aware of that subject B was asleep and had not agreed to said groping.Gary Chambers said:
That's abuse enough for me. A gentleman or genltewoman don't pull stunts like that. Not even when young and dumb.
wishfulthinking
Misbehaving
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 1,972
I admit to thinking something more 'sinister' has occured.
The reason for this is because I believe a man waking up after a party and finding a woman fondling him is not likely to go to the police. Even in a moment of outrage and shock he did then complain to the police, I then think he would more than likely have the charges withdrawn the next day.
wishfulthinking
Misbehaving
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
- Posts
- 1,972
Just for interest. Note the last part - no wonder males don't report it!
(2001-01-04) PORTUGAL: NEW SOCIAL PHENOMENON v WOMEN RAPING MEN
The latest statistics released by the Portuguese Judiciary Police are somewhat disturbing: it is estimated that there are 11 cases of rape every day in Portugal, in a population of 10 million.
This statistic is based on the fact that there is one confirmed complaint per day but that 90% of rape victims do not tell the authorities in Portugal. This is due to the fact that generally the victim is so horrified that she closes up and refuses to accept what has happened. Only through psychological counselling do the victims start to open up and admit the crime committed against them. Other reasons are fear of retaliation or the fact that a proportion of women raped are prostitutes v who are sometimes raped even by policemen.
Comparisons are made with other countries, showing that the statistics are similar in Western European countries but that the rape rate in the USA is far higher. In Europe, only 10% of victims report the crime, whereas in the USA, the figure is 25% .
There are two categories of the classical rapist v the desire for power over another human being and the desire for revenge against women. However, a third category has since appeared in Portugal v that of the female rapist.
Recently in Lisbon, a group of three women raped five men. It is not stated by the police report how much resistance these men offered.
(2001-01-04) PORTUGAL: NEW SOCIAL PHENOMENON v WOMEN RAPING MEN
The latest statistics released by the Portuguese Judiciary Police are somewhat disturbing: it is estimated that there are 11 cases of rape every day in Portugal, in a population of 10 million.
This statistic is based on the fact that there is one confirmed complaint per day but that 90% of rape victims do not tell the authorities in Portugal. This is due to the fact that generally the victim is so horrified that she closes up and refuses to accept what has happened. Only through psychological counselling do the victims start to open up and admit the crime committed against them. Other reasons are fear of retaliation or the fact that a proportion of women raped are prostitutes v who are sometimes raped even by policemen.
Comparisons are made with other countries, showing that the statistics are similar in Western European countries but that the rape rate in the USA is far higher. In Europe, only 10% of victims report the crime, whereas in the USA, the figure is 25% .
There are two categories of the classical rapist v the desire for power over another human being and the desire for revenge against women. However, a third category has since appeared in Portugal v that of the female rapist.
Recently in Lisbon, a group of three women raped five men. It is not stated by the police report how much resistance these men offered.
Svenskaflicka
Fountain
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2002
- Posts
- 16,142
Lin puts it very well:
He had not agreed to it. Falling asleep is not the same thing as agreeing.
Gary, the way you reason, one might as well say that if I go out dancing with my galpals, and we go to a nightclub, with a mixed crowd of people who are out to have a good time, then that could be interpreted that I have signalled consent to any man who gets it in his head to sudddenly drag me into the bathroom and start fondling me!
I really can't understand how anyone can justify what the woman did here.
He had not agreed to it. Falling asleep is not the same thing as agreeing.
Gary, the way you reason, one might as well say that if I go out dancing with my galpals, and we go to a nightclub, with a mixed crowd of people who are out to have a good time, then that could be interpreted that I have signalled consent to any man who gets it in his head to sudddenly drag me into the bathroom and start fondling me!
I really can't understand how anyone can justify what the woman did here.
