Now it has happened

[Wills]

wishfulthinking

(2001-01-04) PORTUGAL: NEW SOCIAL PHENOMENON v WOMEN RAPING MEN

Whilst not wishing to lighten the tone of this thread in any way or to divert the topic - a few words about the Portuguese.

Portugal is currently examining its whole attitude to sex in part as a result of a high profile peodofilia case that involves distinguished public figures up to the most senior government level. This has engendered an hysteria of claims and statistics.

Any statistical output from Portugal should be viewed very cautiously. The population in Portugal has been 'stuck' at 10m for about the last thirty years despite hundreds of thousands returning from the ex-colonies. Portugals official EU statistics for 2000 record 7 (seven) immigrants. This in the face of every other construction worker being from Eastern Europe. Apparently the worlds cheapest airline ticket is the return leg from Lisbon to Romania or the Ukraine, they arrive each week in the hundreds and no one catches the plane back.

Generally, Portuguese society operates on an entirely different plane to say UK society. This is particularly notable among the young where M/M. F/M and F/F social intercourse is far more open. It is not unusual to see two males with their arms around each others shoulders in the street, close M/M relatives will kiss on meeting. They are not displaying any sexuality - just friendship. F/M and F/F social intercourse occurs in a similar pattern.

I had lunch today in a backstreet 'tasca' in Lisbon where I guess there were twenty odd diners ranging in ages from 20 to 70. A complete social harmony exists across the age bands with strangers encouraged to join tables and conversations. I watched a man in a Tax Office entertain a four year old whilst his Mother dealt with her business. He was unknown to the Mother but she had no fear in allowing the man to entertain her son, Ok the childs Grandmother was watching on but that kind of social behaviour could not happen in the UK, you would risk being arrested.

Returning to the statistics and with particular note to the last line.

It is not stated by the police report how much resistance these men offered.

It is worth observing - and this is just the devil in me - that the Euro 2004 Football Tournament takes place in Portugal this summer, are the Police just trying to reassure the males who will flood this country that they are going to have a good time?

Will's

 

[OldnotDead]

One more man voice

Good afternoon,

Perdita and others asked early in this thread about where were the men's voices. Several arrived and made a variety of points. As I read through the thread, it seems to me that there are two parallel discussions going on. The first is a theoretical discussion of rape and non consensual sex. The second is more specific to the illustrative example introducing the thread by Svenskaflicka. There is so much I want to say about both, but I will try to keep myself somewhat under control.

Rape has both social and legal definitions, as has been alluded. More importantly, rape tends to be an act of violence. Someone mentioned that in some countries it is not possible for a woman to be charged with raping a man. That is a legal issue. What most social scientists use to differentiate sexual abuse or harassment from rape is the nature of the act. They tend to perceive rape to have physical violence or domination as the driving force and not sexual gratification. In this case, as reported, it would appear that it is more about sexual harassment and not rape.

While people have put it differently I think we all agree that any kind of rape is totally unacceptable no matter who is involved. Lately we are hearing more of male/male rape that does not involve homosexuality but is sourced in adolescent hazing rituals. There seems to be some discussion about who would feel more violated. I think Perdita had a perception that penetration and 'invasion' makes for a more psychologically damaging situation. But I would say only if the 'rape' involved were sexual intercourse. As mentioned above, rape is usually about more than non consensual sex. The rebuttals that physical damage could be even more devastating were well founded.

But the case given seems so much in the vein of 'inappropriate touching' that it is almost unfair to the victims of rape to even compare. Yet, what can we do, except use such an example as a departure point?

The general discussion touches on so many aspects of a difficult situation. Men are most often portrayed as 'wanting it' and Women get labeled as 'denying it', so our comedians rely on these sterotypes and make jokes of situations where men are sexually harassed. Leno and others could get lots of laughs off Svenska's news story.

For myself, I can personally speak of seeing both the humor and the tragedy in a situation of unwanted, inappropriate touching. I would never want to compare my own experience to those who have experienced far worse.

After graduating from college I stayed in the area and continued to socialize with friends, including students, faculty and administrators. Many nights found me over at one person's apartment or another's socializing, drinking and, yes, smoking something that was not tobacco. On one occasion I found myself one of the last to leave and I was seriously considering staying the night. It was a short drive to my own place, but not something I had to do and in my current condition, something I probably should NOT have done.

Anyway, as I considered staying, my host sat next to me on the sofa and professed pure lust for me. Saying that while my intellect was good and my wit above average, the real attraction was physical and proceeded to mash me with kisses all the while unzipping my pants and attempting a blow job. I say attempting, because the feeling was not mutual and I found the whole thing more distasteful than disgusting or violating. Looking back, I think that I accepted a certain mutual inebriation that precluded getting too wound up about anyone's behavior.

I did say no and when 'no' didn't work, I finally got up and moved away. But I didn't move very fast. I think it was mostly being high.

Now the humor. Once I had put myself back together, I explained to my suitor that I was REALLY not interested. #1 I liked girls, not guys. And then I got a little silly with him. I pointed out that for years, like most adolescents, I had dreamed of the day someone would say to me, "I just want you for your body," and participate in guilt free mutually satisfying sex. Of course MY dream had the one saying that to be a voluptuous female, not an older guy. Instead, I realized the dream (at least the spoken part) with an older, gay faculty member that was definitely not voluptuous and resembled far more a linebacker from the football team than the cheerleader image for which I had lusted. (Hey! I did say adolescent <G> )

At that point, what should have been a most embarassing episode became more farsical and, fortunately, somehow we remained friends. He and I both laughed as I told him how he had ruined my fantasy. To this day, I look back on it as more farce than anything else. I mean, it was not a shock that he was gay. He had also hinted at his interest in me, so that was not the huge surprise. The real surprise was his willingness to force himself on me.

And I guess, in that regard, I gave him a huge pass. But I was able to stop things and not do something I really didn't want to do. I certainly did not have to deal with being 'overpowered' (although he had a some inches and many pounds to his advantage). And while I was upset, there was no trauma involved. I knew what I liked and what I didn't.

So I feel like I can talk a little bit about harassment, but I would never pretend that what I experienced even approached the trauma of someone that has been raped. Today, would I file a complaint with the school and put the man on notice? Probably not. I had graduated. It was strictly a social situation and one that I could have chosen to not attend.

Does this provide any insight into men's attitudes? I think not. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I can really only speak for myself.

I do believe that it is not unreasonable to tolerate the occasional incident of someone pushing a little too much. At the same time, I feel very strongly that when someone says stop, one should stop. And if things did go too far, it is NEVER an excuse to go that far again. If that seems inconsistent, so be it. I'm willing to accept that we give mixed signals and our own personal controls can be good or bad at anyone time. But repetition is NOT a good thing.

I have adolescent children and I feel very strongly that they should not be forced into things for which they are not ready or interested. I do not expect them to not do the things my friends and I did. I DO expect them to be more careful. What could be corrected with penicillin in my adolescence can kill in theirs. It is a significant difference.

My biggest concern is always intimidation. The abuse of power, whether physical or mental, is most disturbing to me. Svenska said in one of her replies that sex without mutual gratification is totally unsatisfactory. She would rather masterbate. I agree. I would like my children to learn that and, more importantly, expect it.

Some posters have touched on the underreporting of physical abuse of men by women. This is an equally disturbing phenomenon that, again, can be the subject of humor, ignoring the seriousness of the problem. Child abuse of parents is also a serious, too often ignored problem. I know of one very sad example right now where a single mom is trying to get her heroin addicted son through rehab, but the abusive/dependent relationship is so well developed that she is having tremendous problems being the 'adult'.

One similarity that runs through a lot of these incidents is the inability of the victim to deal with the situation. Sometimes it is out of fear and lack of control. Often it is the unexpected nature of the situation. As friends, parents, colleagues, we need to be aware that sometimes the most important way to help is support for what the victim DID do, and not making them feel remiss for what they did not do.

I think that's enough for now. More than enough

 

[wishfulthinking]

Hi Wills, sorry I didn't mean to reflect bad on portugal at all. Lisboa is lovely, and so are the beaches on the Algarve, and inland places like Silva and Monchique (can't remember correct spelling), so everyone do travel there! But the stats are so out of date I don't think anyone would consider them. I just was amazed at the last part - very tongue in cheek by the author.

 

[wishfulthinking]

OnD - thank you for sharing. It shows that even as an adolscent you possessed a deep maturity to handle a situation like that - by using humour you were able to turn what could have been a terrible situation into something you can joke about with this person.