OK. I'll jump right in. Why is rape given special status as a crime?

[AchtungNight]

This sounds good, in theory. It's very much how many men would approach to the situation. However, what it does is retraumatizes the person repeatedly. Some people may find this a valid and empowering strategy. Many would find that it keeps the rape in their thoughts constantly.

Life is not a revenge movie. Learning self-defense is good, but one of the things that is driven home is that the first and best response is to run and get away as soon as you can. Fighting back is a last resort.

This isn't about being tougher than your attacker, by the time you are raped, the damage is done. Your psyche is scarred and it is pernicious in ways that you can't even imagine until it happens to you.

I'd argue that having support systems and coping strategies for when you have a (for lack of a better term) flare up is better than pursuing a revenge fantasy for most people.

If that’s what works for you, fine. Long as you endure and survive. I’m not saying my strategy is for everyone. Just that it’s a very good strategy. I let each person decide if they agree.

Oh, one more thing. Fighting back is not a last resort for me. It’s a possible strategy. And a necessity if another person is threatened or I can’t get away. And I would endure any amount of further trauma to keep it that way.

 

[Omenainen]

I did not mean that last thing. I mean go out and get stronger, overcome your fear by whatever means necessary. Surround yourself with a group of worthy allies when you go out. Train in mixed martial arts and verbal skills to become tougher mentally and physically. Psych yourself into a new mindset.

And start by dropping this whole “men are tougher than women” thing. That’s not true. I come up against certain women- Cynthia Rothrock or Holly Holm, say- it doesn’t matter that I’m a man. I’m going down. Not that I would ever force myself on anyone, if that wasn’t obvious. For me, sex has to be consensual and enjoyable for all parties involved. If it isn’t going to be that way, I’m perfectly happy to drop the idea and be content with fantasy. I don’t try to force the issue.

Rapists are of course the opposite. And we as a society need to stop enabling such people. Refuse to be a victim. Rise up. Empower yourself. You need training dummies? Turn on a video game or go by your local martial arts school and explain the situation. I’m sure you will find plenty of volunteers.

If necessary, start with the video game and work up to the martial arts school. Or maybe write a story where a character based on you has the ability you want. Imagine how it could happen. Then make it so. It’s what worked for me.

Can’t you see that this is just another way to victim blame? You’re essentially saying, too bad this happened to you, but if you had been skilled in marital arts / more careful / not gone out alone / whatever it wouldn’t have happened to you?

Please think it through. This is not the supportive stance you think it is.

 

[AchtungNight]

Can’t you see that this is just another way to victim blame? You’re essentially saying, too bad this happened to you, but if you had been skilled in marital arts / more careful / not gone out alone / whatever it wouldn’t have happened to you?

Please think it through. This is not the supportive stance you think it is.

I have thought it through. And I still hold it. Shame me if you like. Then think about whether I might be right.

Victims, monsters, and heroes are facts of life. They exist. I know because I have been all three. I know which I prefer.

Oh and you have one thing wrong. I’m not saying it -would not- have happened. I’m saying it -might not-. Then I’m asking you to improve the odds so they’re in your favor. Get it now?

And I’m not blaming the victim for their own past trauma. I’m challenging them to make it more difficult for a possible perp- who is of course still to blame- next time it might happen. They can take that as they will.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I did not mean that last thing. I mean go out and get stronger, overcome your fear by whatever means necessary. Surround yourself with a group of worthy allies when you go out.

You know one of the things I love?

Being alone. Having space to be me, just me, with my thoughts and the cool night air.

I love my friends too, and it's great to hang out with them sometimes. But I can't be with people everywhere I go, all day long, and even if I did... they have lives and commitments of their own. They can't come by to form an escort every time I need to go out to the shops. I challenge you to try it just for a month: only go out when you have a couple of friends to keep you company. See how confining that feels.

But mostly it's not the "going out" that's the problem, because most rapes don't happen with a stranger in a dark alley. They happen with friends and family, often people who were the victim's "worthy allies" right until they weren't.

Train in mixed martial arts and verbal skills to become tougher mentally and physically. Psych yourself into a new mindset.

And start by dropping this whole “men are tougher than women” thing. That’s not true. I come up against certain women- Cynthia Rothrock or Holly Holm, say- it doesn’t matter that I’m a man. I’m going down.

Okay. So, even as a guy, a guy who has apparently put a fair bit of work into this, you do understand that there are people in the world who you can't hope to match physically? Well, that's also the situation for a lot of women.

Not that I would ever force myself on anyone, if that wasn’t obvious. For me, sex has to be consensual and enjoyable for all parties involved. If it isn’t going to be that way, I’m perfectly happy to drop the idea and be content with fantasy. I don’t try to force the issue.

Rapists are of course the opposite. And we as a society need to stop enabling such people. Refuse to be a victim. Rise up. Empower yourself. You need training dummies? Turn on a video game or go by your local martial arts school and explain the situation. I’m sure you will find plenty of volunteers.

Erm. How does a video game help here? The only one I know of that seems relevant here is https://hypnoticowl.com/games/theday/ and I don't think that's what you're talking about.

This next bit is a general statement, and I don't know whether it applies to you. You will have to be the judge of that. But:

I feel like a lot of guys put far more energy into telling women what they should do to avoid getting raped than they do into encouraging their fellow men not to be rapists, and I feel like the world would be a better place with fewer rapes if that situation were reversed.

Please believe that the average woman has thought about this issue A LOT. By the time she's old enough to be on this board, you can bet dollars to donuts that she's already given a great deal of time to questions like "am I safer going to this thing alone, or with that nice friendly-seeming guy from work?" and "how much protection would martial arts give me against a potential attacker in the risk scenarios that are relevant to me personally, and what are the costs and risks in terms of time, money, and training injuries?" and she has done her best to figure out what seems like the least bad strategy for her, which might be a lot like yours or might be very much unlike yours.

I think a lot of guys could afford to stop and ask themselves: "am I telling her anything she doesn't already know, that's going to be relevant to her personal situation?" and then take all that energy and use it for less comfortable things like calling out their own mate when he's pestering a woman.

If that's not about you, then it's not about you. But it's about a lot of guys.

 

[jaF0]

Caveats about me.

Your posts have been noticed.

Perhaps not in the way you intended.


Caution is advised.

 

[AchtungNight]

I agree with you, Bramblethorn. And the kind of game I’m talking about is something like Mortal Kombat, Max Payne, or Streets of Rage. I’ve never heard of the game you linked.

 

[jaF0]

I will point out that it's one of the few crimes where you have to actually prove you were the victim of it.

It goes further than that. MUCH further.

You not only have to prove it happened, but that you didn't want it, didn't do anything to entice or allow it, didn't enjoy it in any way and did your best to avoid/stop/fight it. And prove that the fact you're still alive isn't evidence to the contrary.

 

[jaF0]

So you're saying I can't understand your position unless I've been raped? And I'm saying I don't think I would react that way... feeling that my personhood had been stolen. I wonder why that is assumed. It may happen, but it may happen under other circumstances.

If it ever happens, I and most others can almost guarantee you'll think differently.


In some cases, victims are destroyed to the point they never fully function again ... at all. They nearly completely withdraw from society and family.

 

[jaF0]

And then there are those victims whose partners, associates and families can't accept it and they move away, leaving the victim alone even if they don't want to be.

Some victims are driven nearly to insanity and dive into substance abuse.

 

[EmilyMiller]

While the existence of this thread is frankly very disturbing, the majority of responses to it are encouraging. Doesn’t always happen here.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

If it ever happens, I and most others can almost guarantee you'll think differently.


In some cases, victims are destroyed to the point they never fully function again ... at all. They nearly completely withdraw from society and family.

You’re arguing with someone who just wants to argue. That’s evident from the entire thread (and others here as you note in your first reply). Oxygen reduction is a good approach.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

A few questions:

• Why was this post created? It’s not really anything to do with here - the OP tries to kinda link it, but - IMO - that’s window dressing
• The phrasing “I’m going to jump in” into what? There are all sorts of arguments here about rape in fiction - I think my stance is pretty well-known - but discussions about rape itself, I don’t think so
• It’s a provocative question - but is it even a question? The OP doesn’t seem to want answers?
• How the OP conducts themselves - are they engaging in discussion, or simply being an agent provocateur? I’d say clearly the latter?
• What about common sense? It’s all too possible for a guy to have some of the views the OP espouses, through a lack of personal experience. But a woman? Regardless of age, or upbringing? That makes zero sense to me. So maybe they aren’t arguing from a bona fide POV and instead just throwing hand grenades. That seems more in line with the facts on the ground.

Maybe I’m wrong and it’s an in good faith attempt to discuss a difficult and sensitive issue. But it sure doesn’t smell that way.

Em

 

[BelleCanzuto]

No longer the person that would let something like that happen to them.

This sidesteps the fact that in general, men are stronger than women so the “won’t let that happen to them” part means what exactly?

I was going to respond, but once again more articulate people have written what I thought.

I feel like a lot of guys put far more energy into telling women what they should do to avoid getting raped than they do into encouraging their fellow men not to be rapists, and I feel like the world would be a better place with fewer rapes if that situation were reversed.

Just repeating this for emphasis.

And the kind of game I’m talking about is something like Mortal Kombat, Max Payne, or Streets of Rage. I’ve never heard of the game you linked.

And now you've lost whatever small amount of credibility you started with, imo, if you think that playing Mortal Kombat in any way transfers useful self defense skills. You're either complete clueless about how human beings learn anything, or you're just very young, with zero life experience.

 

[Winter_Fare]

The phrasing “I’m going to jump in” into what? There are all sorts of arguments here about rape in fiction - I think my stance is pretty well-known - but discussions about rape itself, I don’t think so

Abso-fucking-lutely.

 

[Djmac1031]

To those who know me, this post isn’t written with ageism intent. I’m just about old enough to be a target of ageists myself.

And more so, I’m well aware that many of our most prolific and esteemed posters present and past are well on in years.

So, this wasn’t saying age means a person is backward. It was more specifically saying that some backward people are products of their age, environment, lack of empathy, living under a rock, being from other planets, and on and on.

Oh hell. Now I need to explain myself to people from other planets too!

79 years should be more than long enough to understand simple things like empathy and compassion.

 

[TadOverdon]

Of course they do. Are you saying that the victim of an assault during a mugging doesn't have feelings?

No. Are you dim?

 

[EmilyMiller]

No. Are you dim?

Rhetorical question?

Em

 

[HordHolm]

A few questions:

• Why was this post created? It’s not really anything to do with here - the OP tries to kinda link it, but - IMO - that’s window dressing
• The phrasing “I’m going to jump in” into what? There are all sorts of arguments here about rape in fiction - I think my stance is pretty well-known - but discussions about rape itself, I don’t think so
• It’s a provocative question - but is it even a question? The OP doesn’t seem to want answers?
• How the OP conducts themselves - are they engaging in discussion, or simply being an agent provocateur? I’d say clearly the latter?
• What about common sense? It’s all too possible for a guy to have some of the views the OP espouses, through a lack of personal experience. But a woman? Regardless of age, or upbringing? That makes zero sense to me. So maybe they aren’t arguing from a bona fide POV and instead just throwing hand grenades. That seems more in line with the facts on the ground.

Maybe I’m wrong and it’s an in good faith attempt to discuss a difficult and sensitive issue. But it sure doesn’t smell that way.

Em

Yeah, when I saw the thread pop up a couple of days ago I did a double-take and a 'whaaaa...?' I can only think it's an attempt to be contrarian for the sake of it on an issue that is just about the last damn thing that needs some kind of iconoclastic contrarian 'controversy'. I really didn't want to get dragged in (and yet here I am), and I'm particularly glad Bramblethorn has posted that articulate response.

 

[AchtungNight]

And now you've lost whatever small amount of credibility you started with, imo, if you think that playing Mortal Kombat in any way transfers useful self defense skills. You're either complete clueless about how human beings learn anything, or you're just very young, with zero life experience.

No. I’m 44 years old and I’m skilled in martial arts. The interest started when I played Mortal Kombat as a child and wanted to be like Johnny Cage. Psychological mindset. Once I had the mindset, all I needed was the skill. And I got it. Philosophers like Bruce Lee and Masaad Ayoob further brought forth the mindset in me. As did training with people who have similar philosophies. I encourage you and anyone else who would disagree with me to look into the people I’m mentioning and see if they can still find me not credible.

If you still don’t, well, you have a right to your opinions.

 

[AG31]

"Assume?"

So if a rape victim claims they are suffering traumatic effects of their rape, you...what, DOUBT them?

More importantly, why is how rape is or isn't allowed to be portrayed in a fictional story here more important to you than actual human empathy for a fellow real world person?

If your right to write a rape story is more important to you than the feelings of a traumatized human being I think maybe you need to reexamine your priorities.

I find this whole thing quite disturbing.

When I said "assume," I meant "assume that all rape victims have this reaction," and "assume that it is significantly worse that the trauma that might be associated with being beaten up during a mugging."

 

[AG31]

It's not a law enforcement thing. It's a society thing. I had my own mother not believe me. She told me I shouldn't report because it would ruin his life. She didn't give a fuck about how it affected me and I was her daughter.

I wish I could have made it clearer that I was talking about rape itself, not the societal treatment of it. This has to do with erotica, not RL.

 

[AG31]

It's possible that you wouldn't. Different people process things differently, and I understand there are some rape survivors who report not experiencing it as particularly traumatic.

But for a lot of people, sex is special. It's treated as an irreplaceable expression of love and intimacy, but one that minors need to be protected from witnessing or even reading about. People who would think nothing of paying a professional to cut their hair may be revolted by the idea of paying a professional for sex; a guy who'd share everything he owned with his friend might be violently offended by the idea of sharing his wife (who he doesn't own).

Another factor there, or perhaps another facet of the same factor, is that crimes like mugging usually aren't meant personally; the mugger just wants money, and mugging you just happens to be the easiest way to get it. Rape, OTOH, tends to be intended personally even when the target is a stranger; if it was just about getting an orgasm there are so many easier, safer ways to achieve that.

Thanks for the thoughtful approach to answering my question.

 

[EmilyMiller]

No. I’m 44 years old and I’m skilled in martial arts. The interest started when I played Mortal Kombat as a child and wanted to be like Johnny Cage. Psychological mindset. Once I had the mindset, all I needed was the skill. And I got it. Philosophers like Bruce Lee and Masaad Ayoob further brought forth the mindset in me. As did training with people who have similar philosophies. I encourage you and anyone else who would disagree with me to look into the people I’m mentioning and see if they can still find me not credible.

If you still don’t, well, you have a right to your opinions.

Hun,

All anyone is saying is that teaching women marital arts is not the answer. That’s some Hollywood fantasy.

Giving women guns is not the answer.

Trying to work out what it is that goes on in the minds of some men might be useful. Thinking about why and how society normalizes violence against women might be another.

But at the end of the day, solutions need to address would be perpetrators, not actual victims.

And meeting violence with violence (or self defense if you want) isn’t necessarily the way forward. It’s putting the onus on the victim.

That’s all people are saying.

Em

 

[AG31]

No. Are you dim?

No, i don't think so. I just don't see how pointing out that rape victims have feelings explains why rape is treated differently than other crimes here on Lit. Again, I'm not sure of the rules, I'm just reacting to posts in the forum.

 

[AchtungNight]

Hun,

All anyone is saying is that teaching women marital arts is not the answer. That’s some Hollywood fantasy.

Giving women guns is not the answer.

Trying to work out what it is that goes on in the minds of some men might be useful. Thinking about why and how society normalizes violence against women might be another.

But at the end of the day, solutions need to address would be perpetrators, not actual victims.

And meeting violence with violence (or self defense if you want) isn’t necessarily the way forward. It’s putting the onus on the victim.

That’s all people are saying.

Em

Okay. Thank you.

I never said it was *the* answer. I said it was *an* answer. It was what worked for me. Find your own answer if it’s more comfortable for you. Good luck.