OK. I'll jump right in. Why is rape given special status as a crime?

[AG31]

I seriously fail to see how any woman cannot empathize with what it feels like to suffer violent sexual assault.

It’s different to being beaten up for your iPhone. Orders of magnitude different.

Even if you are lucky enough that it never happens to you, can’t you imagine what it might be like?

Em

I just don't think I would have that kind of reaction. Anyway, does that warrant asking people to make their erotic stories politically correct?

 

[EmilyMiller]

Okay. Thank you.

I never said it was *the* answer. I said it was *an* answer. It was what worked for me. Find your own answer if it’s more comfortable for you. Good luck.

But you’re not a woman, hun.

Em

 

[AG31]

It's not a law enforcement thing. It's a society thing. I had my own mother not believe me. She told me I shouldn't report because it would ruin his life. She didn't give a fuck about how it affected me and I was her daughter.

That's why it's treated different. It's the only crime where the victim has to prove they were harmed, often to degrading and humiliating degrees.

It's a crime that just keeps fucking hitting you over and over for years and decades to come because you still have to face the family who looked you in the eye and told you they gave your rapist money because you kicked him out in the middle of the night and they felt bad for him. It doesn't stop attacking you after the rapist is finished.

I wish I had made it clearer that I was talking about the rape itself, not the way society handles it in the aftermath. I was talking about the thing that usually appears in erotic stories and that members of Lit. treat differently.

 

[AG31]

Caution is advised.

???????

 

[Mastered_again]

To be blunt, this qualifies as the dumbass-iest question of the year.

 

[SimonDoom]

I confess I don't understand this thread. I've read it through and I still don't understand it. The OP says it's about erotica, not real life, but most of the discussion seems to be about real-life rape.

Real-life rape is not the same thing as assault and battery. A guy punched my face outside a bar once. It was a crime, and he ultimately went to jail (he also assaulted a woman minutes before and knocked her unconscious), and for a long time after it happened I recall feeling a sense of rage against the assailant. But I don't think it was even remotely in the same universe as the feeling of being raped. I don't have any personal knowledge about that; that's my sense based upon what I've read and seen. You can question why rape is so traumatic all you want, but at some point if you are a reality-based person you just have to accept that it IS in fact traumatic and that it's not the same as a simple battery. I think victim reports amply demonstrate that. There is a profound feeling of violation that goes beyond what one experiences in a mugging, or being punched in the face.

I don't know what this thread has to do with erotica at this Site. This Site doesn't give rape special treatment. As a general principle the Site proscribes writing about violent conduct, including torture, mayhem, murder, and rape, as a source of erotic pleasure. So in the realm of nonconsensual sex it leaves two things you can write about. You can write about rape (and other crimes) if the treatment is not erotic. And you can write about nonconsensual sexual behavior where the victim enjoys it. This is fantasy stuff. It's not real and it's not the way people actually experience nonconsensual sexual activity in the real world. It's a fantasy world where the laws of reality are suspended.

There's no special treatment for rape, either in the real world or at this Site, that I can see.

 

[AchtungNight]

But you’re not a woman, hun.

Em

No, but I am the brother of one who has been threatened with the possibility of rape more than once. One of the ways she responded was by developing skills similar to mine. And by encouraging her children to develop similar skills. You can choose for yourself whether or not you believe me. It’s the truth.

I’m also the son, the nephew, the cousin, the friend, and the significant other of similar women.

 

[Winter_Fare]

Anyway, does that warrant asking people to make their erotic stories politically correct?

You're mashing together a bunch of stuff that needs teasing apart. Erotica isn't politically correct by the way. Never has been.

Any publisher is entitled to curate their space. On Lit, the boundaries blur sometimes because they're unclear about what's allowed. It's nothing to do with the reality of sexual assault. The site has wobbly rules about content. That's it.

Separate conversation about how rape is criminally distinct from common assault *might* be interesting, but only as a political discourse, nothing to do with Lit rules.

 

[AG31]

A few questions:

• Why was this post created? It’s not really anything to do with here - the OP tries to kinda link it, but - IMO - that’s window dressing

As I said in the OP, I've had this question most of my life. I've been impressed with the intelligent, mostly open, back and forth here on Lit, where I've just gotten active recently. I was sitting on the couch the other day and thought, "Oh! I could ask the forum!" Because I know from experience that this is not normally something discussable. I've gotten two or three attempts to answer the question here, but mostly it's just more of the "What??? How could you possibly not know the answer????"

• Maybe I’m wrong and it’s an in good faith attempt to discuss a difficult and sensitive issue. But it sure doesn’t smell that way.

Yes, you're wrong.

 

[Winter_Fare]

To be blunt, this qualifies as the dumbass-iest question of the year.

New readers choice award category?

 

[EmilyMiller]

No, but I am the brother of one who has been threatened with the possibility of rape more than once. One of the ways she responded was by developing skills similar to mine. And by encouraging her children to develop similar skills. You can choose for yourself whether or not you believe me. It’s the truth.

I’m also the son, the nephew, the cousin, the friend, and the significant other of similar women.

I’m not arguing, hun.

But what worked for you will not work for everyone. And it’s after the fact. We need to stop rapes happening, not to react to them.

Em

 

[HordHolm]

Why is rape treated in a special way in environments like Lit.? I frankly don't know what the rules are, as it's not my thing. But I've seen lots of posts that isolate rape as "special."

The above is from your original post, and I will try to make the answer as simple as possible as it regards Lit and the content rules:

Rape is a crime. Having rape as an erotic component of a story would mean glorifying that sexual crime, normalising it, as it were and presenting it for gratification. It's the same with the over 18 rule, with the difference that yes, there are countries where sex under 18 is legal (I come from one and live in another), but in the US (where Lit is based), the age of consent is 18. Stories featuring those under that age of consent would depict a sexual criminal act for the gratification of readers. For that reason such stories are verbotten, and for exactly the same reason rape stories are verbotten too (with some fig leaves and work arounds excepted). Basically, if the sexual thrill comes from a criminal act, it ain't welcome.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I confess I don't understand this thread. I've read it through and I still don't understand it. The OP says it's about erotica, not real life, but most of the discussion seems to be about real-life rape.

Real-life rape is not the same thing as assault and battery. A guy punched my face outside a bar once. It was a crime, and he ultimately went to jail (he also assaulted a woman minutes before and knocked her unconscious), and for a long time after it happened I recall feeling a sense of rage against the assailant. But I don't think it was even remotely in the same universe as the feeling of being raped. I don't have any personal knowledge about that; that's my sense based upon what I've read and seen. You can question why rape is so traumatic all you want, but at some point if you are a reality-based person you just have to accept that it IS in fact traumatic and that it's not the same as a simple battery. I think victim reports amply demonstrate that. There is a profound feeling of violation that goes beyond what one experiences in a mugging, or being punched in the face.

I don't know what this thread has to do with erotica at this Site. This Site doesn't give rape special treatment. As a general principle the Site proscribes writing about violent conduct, including torture, mayhem, murder, and rape, as a source of erotic pleasure. So in the realm of nonconsensual sex it leaves two things you can write about. You can write about rape (and other crimes) if the treatment is not erotic. And you can write about nonconsensual sexual behavior where the victim enjoys it. This is fantasy stuff. It's not real and it's not the way people actually experience nonconsensual sexual activity in the real world. It's a fantasy world where the laws of reality are suspended.

There's no special treatment for rape, either in the real world or at this Site, that I can see.

We don’t see eye to eye about rape in fiction, but I agree with what you say about real life here.

Em

 

[AchtungNight]

I’m not arguing, hun.

But what worked for you will not work for everyone. And it’s after the fact. We need to stop rapes happening, not to react to them.

Em

I agree we need to stop rapes happening. But it already happened to me- the threat at least. And if the threat happens again, I’m ready. I hope. Same for the women I know.

As for preventing future rapes, maybe turning more potential victims into people ready and able to fight back is a good thing. I accept that it’s not for everyone. If you can’t do it, just disassociate yourself from the situation and move on with your life as best you can. Taking the blue pill is a common response.

 

[BelleCanzuto]

why rape is treated differently than other crimes here on Lit. Again, I'm not sure of the rules,

I don't think I'm the only person here who did not realize that you meant to confine your question to the treatment of rape in stories, on this site. It seemed to me that you were asking a much more broad question.

So, to answer (from my perspective) the question you say you meant to ask: why is rape treated differently in the rules about submissions to this site? I have two related, possibly contradictory responses.
1) It isn't treated differently, inasmuch as if you wrote at story in which an assailant gained sexual gratification from mugging someone, at the point of the story was to eroticize that violence only, then it would likely get sent back. If you write a story in which, as a plot point, a person is mugged, and (say) they use that incident as motivation to get more physically fit, and something sexy happens as a result of that, then it would like be published. If the traumatic incident was a rape, that is not graphically described, and not the main point of the story, but simply the bad thing that happened in the past that spurred the protagonist to make life changes, then the "victim has to enjoy it" rule doesn't apply.
2) the "victim has to enjoy it" rule applies to nonconsent stories here because those kinds of fantasies are so common, and it's the stance the site owner has taken to set up some kind of guardrail against publishing stories she thinks go too far. Many (some very vocally) authors and readers find this rule to be inconsistently enforced, especially with older stories.

Re your comparison to BDSM: as someone already wrote, BDSM is consensual. It should be clear in a BDSM story that it *is* consensual. And those stories can get sent back or reported if readers think they cross the line into sexualizing gratuitous violence or nonconsent.

 

[SimonDoom]

No, but I am the brother of one who has been threatened with the possibility of rape more than once. One of the ways she responded was by developing skills similar to mine. And by encouraging her children to develop similar skills. You can choose for yourself whether or not you believe me. It’s the truth.

I’m also the son, the nephew, the cousin, the friend, and the significant other of similar women.

It's perfectly OK and sensible to advise people that they should be careful about where they walk at night, or what they drink at a frat party. It's fine to recommend people take self-defense classes.

It's not OK to suggest after the fact that one's behavior is partly responsible for making the crime as bad as it is. A person who walks through a dangerous neighborhood at night and gets attacked has perhaps acted foolishly, but they are every bit as much a victim of a terrible crime as the person who took every precaution. The crime should be punished every bit as severely.

I'm not sure this is what you are suggesting, but I think it's somewhat unclear to people in this thread exactly what you ARE suggesting.

 

[AchtungNight]

It's perfectly OK and sensible to advise people that they should be careful about where they walk at night, or what they drink at a frat party. It's fine to recommend people take self-defense classes.

It's not OK to suggest after the fact that one's behavior is partly responsible for making the crime as bad as it is. A person who walks through a dangerous neighborhood at night and gets attacked has perhaps acted foolishly, but they are every bit as much a victim of a terrible crime as the person who took every precaution. The crime should be punished every bit as severely.

I agree. And for the record, I never once said past behavior of a victim was responsible for their assault. I’m just sharing my own personal coping mechanisms and suggesting possible future behavior. If you don’t think you can do things my way, find your own coping mechanisms. Good luck to you. I hope things turn out ok.

 

[HordHolm]

I don't think I'm the only person here who did not realize that you meant to confine your question to the treatment of rape in stories, on this site. It seemed to me that you were asking a much more broad question.

So, to answer (from my perspective) the question you say you meant to ask: why is rape treated differently in the rules about submissions to this site? I have two related, possibly contradictory responses.
1) It isn't treated differently, inasmuch as if you wrote at story in which an assailant gained sexual gratification from mugging someone, at the point of the story was to eroticize that violence only, then it would likely get sent back. If you write a story in which, as a plot point, a person is mugged, and (say) they use that incident as motivation to get more physically fit, and something sexy happens as a result of that, then it would like be published. If the traumatic incident was a rape, that is not graphically described, and not the main point of the story, but simply the bad thing that happened in the past that spurred the protagonist to make life changes, then the "victim has to enjoy it" rule doesn't apply.
2) the "victim has to enjoy it" rule applies to nonconsent stories here because those kinds of fantasies are so common, and it's the stance the site owner has taken to set up some kind of guardrail against publishing stories she thinks go too far. Many (some very vocally) authors and readers find this rule to be inconsistently enforced, especially with older stories.

Re your comparison to BDSM: as someone already wrote, BDSM is consensual. It should be clear in a BDSM story that it *is* consensual. And those stories can get sent back or reported if readers think they cross the line into sexualizing gratuitous violence or nonconsent.

Thank you, you put it much better than I did.

 

[AchtungNight]

AG31- I think what you’re not grasping here is that in *fictional* erotic stories such as the ones posted on Lit and those I have written, sex is always consensual and enjoyable. Such is not the case with real life sexual assault or harassment cases. Those crimes should be shamed and punished as the terrible unwelcome things they are.

Everyone else who has responded to me- I apologize if necessary. You are seeing things in my advice that were not my intention. I hope you will believe that. I also hope you will not further question or dishonor my coping mechanisms. I can accept that they don’t work for everyone. I hope you can accept that what works for me and others I know also works just as well as whatever you think does.

 

[RejectReality]

The above is from your original post, and I will try to make the answer as simple as possible as it regards Lit and the content rules:

Rape is a crime. Having rape as an erotic component of a story would mean glorifying that sexual crime, normalising it, as it were and presenting for gratification. It's the same with the over 18 rule, with the difference that yes, there are countries where sex under 18 is legal (I come from one and live in another), but in the US (where Lit is based), the age of consent is 18. Stories featuring those under that age of content would depict a sexual criminal act for the gratification of readers. For that reason such stories are verbotten, and for exactly the same reason rape stories are verbotten too (with some fig leaves and work arounds excepted). Basically, if the sexual thrill comes from a criminal act, it ain't welcome.

No, the legality of the act in the real world has nothing to do with permissibility on Lit. That's a combination of what Laurel personally chooses not to publish, and overwhelming visitor sentiment. If the legality of the act in the real world was a determining factor, murder, beatings, drug use, speeding, trespassing, etc. would also be forbidden on Lit. Partisan politics and religion are perfectly legal in the real world, yet their more preachy edges are forbidden on Lit.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

 

[HordHolm]

No, the legality of the act in the real world has nothing to do with permissibility on Lit. That's a combination of what Laurel personally chooses not to publish, and overwhelming visitor sentiment. If the legality of the act in the real world was a determining factor, murder, beatings, drug use, speeding, trespassing, etc. would also be forbidden on Lit. Partisan politics and religion are perfectly legal in the real world, yet their more preachy edges are forbidden on Lit.

You misunderstand (or I was unclear) - it is the act of gaining sexual gratification from the criminal act which is the issue. Of course there can crime in stories, just not in a way that makes it the erotic centrepiece.

As for religion, politics, etc, there is the simple issue that Laurel can do without the grief, but again it isn't (generally) about the sexual or erotic nature of those things - which don't have any (and yes, I'm sure its possible to find an outlier on the site where a priest gets into the pulpit and gets off on his own sermon, just to undermine my point) - whereas with rape and under 18, there is the legal issue of a sexual crime on an erotic site, remembering that the other crimes you mention are not sexual crimes per se (though a perpetrator might have a kink, the vast majority don't).

 

[Djmac1031]

When I said "assume," I meant "assume that all rape victims have this reaction," and "assume that it is significantly worse that the trauma that might be associated with being beaten up during a mugging."

I understood that.

My point is; no one is "assuming" all rape victims have "this (traumatic) reaction."

Because ask any rape victim and they'll TELL YOU THEIR REACTION.

Meanwhile YOU are putting out there this assumption that it can't be any worse than being beaten up by a mugger.

People here are TELLING you what rape is like.

Not ASSUMING.

Telling you what it actually IS.

LISTEN TO THEM.

 

[RejectReality]

You misunderstand (or I was unclear) - it is the act of gaining sexual gratification from the criminal act which is the issue. Of course there can crime in stories, just not in a way that makes it the erotic centrepiece.

As for religion, politics, etc, there is the simple issue that Laurel can do without the grief, but again it isn't (generally) about the sexual or erotic nature of those things - which don't have any (and yes, I'm sure its possible to find an outlier on the site where a priest gets into the pulpit and gets off on his own sermon, just to undermine my point) - whereas with rape and under 18, there is the legal issue of a sexual crime on an erotic site, remembering that the other crimes you mention are not sexual crimes per se (though a perpetrator might have a kink, the vast majority don't).

It's not illegal to create or publish that material in written form. Last time I checked, nobody had dragged Stephen King out of his house in chains for that not enough PG and too much 13 scene in "It". Incest in the real world is almost always non-consensual and frequently illegal — yet it's the biggest category here and glorifies the shit out of it. Therefore, it's personal preference and not the legality of the act.

Going on and on about the legality of the act in the real world throws fuel on the fire of people railing against the under 18 rule on Lit. "But I'm from XcountryX and 16 is legal here!"

Speculating about the reasoning Laurel has for her personal preference may be an interesting intellectual exercise, but when it comes down to it, the only answer that truly matters and doesn't open the door to annoying arguments from people attempting to circumvent the rules is "It's my house! If you don't like it, you can get the fuck out!"

 

[BelleCanzuto]

Everyone else who has responded to me- I apologize if necessary. You are seeing things in my advice that were not my intention. I hope you will believe that. I also hope you will not further question or dishonor my coping mechanisms. I can accept that they don’t work for everyone. I hope you can accept that what works for me and others I know also works just as well as whatever you think does.

I didn't have any intention of denigrating your coping mechanisms. But you did not originally (in the post to which I responded) present them as your coping mechanisms.
Your first post included the sentence I quoted, and your framing: "no longer" be "the person" who would "let" rape happen to her/him reads like classic victim blaming. If English isn't your primary language, then I'll accept that my reaction was essentially a mistranslation of what you meant. To then go on an cite Mortal Kombat as a way to gain martial arts skills (which is what I reacted to) doesn't make sense. And you clarified, that game was just the spark that lit your interest in martial arts.

If having learned those skills, you feel more confident and safer, then I applaud that. And I appreciate you clarifying and reframing the intent of your original post. I also appreciate your recognizing that your coping mechanisms won't work for everyone.