Okay, well I don't know what category you could put this in

[Guest]

Re: Re: compliment

"coles"???

*sigh*... You really have to do a spell check, or Rybka (and sometimes myself, depending upon what your spelling mistake is) will keep after you. Besides, it's good practice. There's nothing more annoying than reading a good poem and then hitting a glaring spelling error. It breaks the mood.

I see the Fish has now become a seal. I like the seal much better than the clam... that was hideous. Actually, that one-eyed, tumorous fish was also bad. Come to think of it, so was the green one with pink lipstick. Rybka seems to be hideous in the majority of his forms. Such a shame.

And no, I don't have the clap. That would be a male problem.

--Xtaabay

 

[karmadog]

Well, I don't care for the crow's poem at all. 'Silken cords' must be mentioned in at least 20% of the 'erotic' poems on lit. It's a very stale image attempting to combine softness with bondage. Frankly, in the BDSM subgenre, the number may reach 85% or 90%.

Seriously, don't use that anymore.

Still, I like the Crow. This individual dealt with serious piscine brutality with grace. Surely that is evidence of potential.

And, go ahead, explain your nick.

 

[Angeline]

Menangerie

Crow meet dog. Dog, crow. Dog, you know fish. Fish is now a seal. Seal, meet crow. Crow, seal.

My head hurts.

 

[CrowSingsOver]

silken cords and misspelled words

coals, happy?

About the poem, I actually did it as a test. I wanted to see if I could write something melodic with a sexual hint to it. I think it was done about a year ago, and not about physical bondage. It was about my bf (my ex bf now), who really didn't respect me. He would want me, but only when it was good for his schedule. But no worries there, he's gone. *happy dance*

Anyway, the name Crow Sings Over comes from the symbolism of crows. As in the movie, crows actually do have to do with a connection between life and death. They are usually represented as people who help souls over to the other world. As I am a Shamanic little witch, the crow is one of my totems. A good book to look up this symbolism in is called Animal Speak. You can also check out your own totems and see what they represent about you.

-Crow (singing now..la la la la)

 

[Guest]

Re: silken cords and misspelled words

coals, happy?

About the poem, I actually did it as a test. I wanted to see if I could write something melodic with a sexual hint to it. I think it was done about a year ago, and not about physical bondage. It was about my bf (my ex bf now), who really didn't respect me. He would want me, but only when it was good for his schedule. But no worries there, he's gone. *happy dance*

Anyway, the name Crow Sings Over comes from the symbolism of crows. As in the movie, crows actually do have to do with a connection between life and death. They are usually represented as people who help souls over to the other world. As I am a Shamanic little witch, the crow is one of my totems. A good book to look up this symbolism in is called Animal Speak. You can also check out your own totems and see what they represent about you.

-Crow (singing now..la la la la)

I shall hold my tongue, except to say that it's interesting how shamanism and witchcraft are combined by certain people (since they each have distinct histories and multiple interpretations). It's also interesting how new agers are influenced by popular culture and have integrated such elements into one pan-religious type of belief system. That is all I have to say about that.
Good for you for getting rid of the boyfriend. Being used is never any fun.

--Xtaabay

 

[CrowSingsOver]

shamonic witchcraft

actually, witchcraft and wicca aren't the same thing. Wicca is quite a new religion and is a mesh of several older religions. Wiccans worship gods and goddesses from pantheons including that of greece, rome, egypt, Britain, and more. Secondly, Shamanism isn't just Native American. The term Shaman is given to Holy men and women in Australia, Europe, parts of Russia, and several other places. I practice a type of shamanism that's a lot like that practiced in many places in Northern Europe, mostly because my roots are in countries like England, France, and Germany. Sadly a lot of the more ancient religions have lost much of their structure and information about them is hard to come by. I've had to feel my way through most of it so far.
As for people who believe that relgion is about only one certain path, I believe they are missing the whole point of life. You can't learn much if you're too busy judging everyone else. I think Wiccanism should create an atmosphere to believe in your own truth, even if it changes as you grow.

 

[Guest]

Re: shamonic witchcraft

actually, witchcraft and wicca aren't the same thing. Wicca is quite a new religion and is a mesh of several older religions. Wiccans worship gods and goddesses from pantheons including that of greece, rome, egypt, Britain, and more. Secondly, Shamanism isn't just Native American. The term Shaman is given to Holy men and women in Australia, Europe, parts of Russia, and several other places. I practice a type of shamanism that's a lot like that practiced in many places in Northern Europe, mostly because my roots are in countries like England, France, and Germany. Sadly a lot of the more ancient religions have lost much of their structure and information about them is hard to come by. I've had to feel my way through most of it so far.
As for people who believe that relgion is about only one certain path, I believe they are missing the whole point of life. You can't learn much if you're too busy judging everyone else. I think Wiccanism should create an atmosphere to believe in your own truth, even if it changes as you grow.

I didn't actually say anything about Wicca. And I'm quite aware of what shamanism is, since I have degrees in cultural anthropology and have done fieldwork in quite a few places. What I don't like is how some people (I'm not saying you, because I don't know you) like to appropriate Native American religions (or rather, their concept of what they believe Native American religions to be) for their own purposes. I'm not the religion police or anything, but you have to understand my perspective: First, people come here and push Native Americans farther to the West. While they do this, they try to Christianize them. Then, when they decide they want more land, they push them onto shrinking reservations, still trying to Christianize them, and also trying to kill them. Then, when they have starved and hunted them into submission and have them nicely contained on crappy pieces of land, and the people are finally forced to be completely dependent on the U.S. gov't for survival (and they are missionized and their own religious practices are outlawed) suddently the government says, "You know what? These people are a problem. We need to acculturate them." And so their children were stolen from them and sent to boarding schools where they had their languages and cultures (and religions) beaten out of them until they forgot them. Finally, the government decided that it should allow people to look after themselves, so it pulled itself out from under the dependent people on reservations (except to give them commodity foods every so often) and left them without decent resources for jobs or education (necessary for surviving in the dominant culture). Then, when people continue to live in poverty and get drunk some old white guys scratch their heads and wonder why. Now... to get to my point. After all of this has happened (and continues to happen) and such people change from "wild savages" to "the noble savage" to romanticized Indians full of peace, love, and spiritual healing, (because such people are no longer threatening once they're pushed to remote parts of the country and therefore they become easy to romanticize) a group of new agers decides to create some half-baked idea of what "Indian religion" is, and then uses it to make themselves feel good. That's the kicker. Take the land, take the languages, take the culture, forbid people to practice their own religions, and then take symbols and elements from them and formulate some sort of pan-Indian pseudo religion and appropriate it in the self-focused quest for spirituality (because after being kicked in the ass so many times, Indians are ultra-spiritual). This is a lot like adding insult to injury for quite a few people. I don't mean to sound nasty (Because obviously it's not the intention of new agers to upset Indians) but I do wish people would be aware of the ways in which their actions affect others. When Native People see a bunch of new agers burning sage and smoking tobacco it tends to annoy them--probably for two main reasons. First, such groups tend to romanticize Native Americans and "Native culture" but they rarely talk to Native Peoples, if at all (i.e. they like the image, but are scared of the reality) and they never do anything which might contribute to their wellfare (despite all the talk about how much they love Indians and Indian things). Second, such groups rarely allow room for Indians to exist in any other way. I've heard such comments as "all Indians are traditional and spiritual." How long do you have to have something before it's traditional? What if your reservation has been mostly Catholic for 400 years? That's not enough time for Catholicism (or anything else) to become traditional? Indians aren't allowed to practice Christianity or go to the bar or get PhD's? Do Indians always have to fit the stereotype of the stoic, spiritual guide, existing only to help new agers on their quests for enlightenment? Are Indians just mystical guides who are extra concerned about helping white people, and then when their jobs of spiritual guiding are done they vanish in a puff of smoke? Just something for people to think about. Again, I'm not trying to arouse anger or guilt, or point fingers at anyone in particular. I'm just trying to show a slightly different perspective. Kudos to you for keeping any open mind about religion. I do agree with you--it's not necessary to follow one main religion, and nothing is wrong with looking at various religions, but if anyone asks you to participate in a sweat lodge or burn some sweet grass, please think carefully about it.
--Xtaabay

 

[Rybka]

WOW!
There's enough there for an epic! Or at least a tome of poems. Let it all out fair lady, then organize it and hit us between the eyes one piece at a time!

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[Guest]

like Beowulf, except with a social message

WOW!
There's enough there for an epic! Or at least a tome of poems. Let it all out fair lady, then organize it and hit us between the eyes one piece at a time!

Regards,                                 Rybka

I think it's as organized as it's gonna get Think of it like Beowulf, except less poetic and with more of a message

 

[CrowSingsOver]

Native Religions

okay, I couldn't even read that far too long reply, you're preaching to the choir about how very unfair the natives of this country were treated. Although I don't have some degree in anthropology or cultural studies, mostly becaus I'm only 20, doesn't mean I'm completey ignorant about what has happened in the past. Actually I was raised to respect Native Americans and their cultures. I've studied their cultures and several different ones ranging all over the globe. It's one of my passions. I actually have quite an interest in anthropology, at one time wanting to go dig around in northern Europe to study the Celtic cultures there. And yes, I do believe that there are too many wannabes around here that only say they respect the native beliefs. It's all bull and usually is up there with the middle and far eastern fad that's been going on. Instead of trying to jump on me, which you have no reason to. There is a certain little entry in one of the Reader's Digests that you should spend that energy on. Some dumb ass who obviously has no clue about the poverty levels on most reservations, was denouncing the few ways the Native tribes have been able to get money. He was preaching on about how sad it was that some woman might have to lose her family land because a tribe had filed suit. Personally I wanted to drop kick this guys ass into a native woman's skin about two hundred years ago and see how he likes being raped, tortured, and otherwise brutalized. With the amount of passion you speak with, you're efforts are wasted on me. I think people need to hear the other side of the story, considering how many people subscribe to Reader's Digest. Actually, I think Reader's Digest should have had their asses kicked for even printing the article. It was racist, one-sides, and missimforming to say the least. X, I'd just ask you to wait before you jump to conclusions about me. You're right, you don't really know me at all, but you might be surprised with how much we are alike.

 

[Rybka]

CrowSingsOver & Xtaabay, drop the S

I'd just ask you to wait before you jump to conclusions about me. You're right, you don't really know me at all, but you might be surprised with how much we are alike.

So stop PMSing and just PM each other! Don't fight chillun, play nice now.

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[CrowSingsOver]

sweat lodges, sweet grass and sage, oh my

Actually I do enjoy sage and sweetgrass, but I also like rose, jasmine, ylang ylang, lavendar, and a lot of other herbs. It's not because the natives used them, I just like the way they smell and they work pretty well in ritual. I don't smoke anything, let alone a peace pipe, it'd be like a Baptist calling up the four directions. Of course I also have athsma, so smoaking is out anyway. I did recieve a lot of my initial training from a half Cherokee woman who taught me what she felt was right. Of course I didn't follow many of the practices because it didn't really fit, but I respected her circle if I sat in it. There was one time that I almost did a sweat lodge, but it didn't work out, which is probably best. A lot of the animal symbolism I've studied and use is native, but it seems to work best because they know most about the creatures that live here. Personally, I think that if people learned more about their own roots, they'd be surprised. I do agree that natives have been stereotyped out the ass. I swear, every time I watch some wilderness movie there's a wise old grandfather. It's gotten to the point where I either turn the tv off, leave the room, or seriously think about banging my head against something. It's like asking someone from Scotland if he plays the bagpipes and lives with sheep (which is way too overdone as well). The whole entertainment world really needs to get an imagination, or a reality check!

 

[Angeline]

You're all right and alright

Shalom Aleicham, the great teller of Yiddish folk tales, has this wonderful story in his book, Tevye the Dairyman. In it, Tevye comes across a group of his fellow villagers. Two men are arguing. Tevye listens and says to the first man, "I agree. You're right." The second man says, "No no, Tevye," and proceeds to explain *his* side. Upon hearing it, Tevye says "You know, you're right." A third fellow speaks up: "Reb Tevye, they speak two opposing opinions. How can they both be right?"

Tevye ponders and says, "You're also right."


We learn our truths in bits and pieces--right and wrong isn't always cut and dried. The trick is to keep learning, so your understanding of what is "true" grows as you do and, maybe more important, recognize that even the most learned among us still doesn't know everything.

I always thought I had no prejudices because I grew up in an "enlightened" family. And certainly as a Jew and one only a few generations removed from WW2, how could I not understand anyone's oppression? Well that, of course, is so much bullshit. One cannot, imho, be acculturated in the USA (or probably anywhere else, but I can only speak for where I am) and be without prejudice. Racism--and all the other isms--are institutions here. Yes. Today. Still. Recognizing *that* is the beginning of seeing people instead of skin color or religion or tribe or sexual preference or whatever.

None of us here should feel we have to defend our respect for any culture, nor should any individual have to apologize for these shameful events of our history. Certainly not on this board, anyway. (And if anyone wants to get revisionist with me, I want an explanation for chedder and bacon bagels, which they sell at my local bagel shoppe. )

The best things we can do are a) acknowlege that mistreatment due to stereotying has and does exist and 2) read all you can and educate yourself until you see individuals instead of a group of stereotypes. Then plan to spend the rest of your life reminding yourself that we're all members of the human race. Even new agers, lol.

I have credentials, too, but the most important one is whatever I'm currently reading that helps me get another piece of the puzzle in place.

One credential I will mention is my background in education as a teacher and researcher, and I note it for one reason: I can quote you a million or so studies that all prove there is nothing in the long term gained from negative reinforcement. In other words, if I criticize you in a way that makes you feel bad, I may shut you up momentarily, but what you'll remember in the long term is not what I want you to know, but that I made you feel crummy. And really what's the point of that?

Peace ,
A.

 

[Rybka]

Thanks, Angie!

Xtaabay: "You drink your own bath water, you stringy, carrion devouring, cat bedeviling, belligerent brat of a lab experiment."

CrowFlysOver: "You wear flea collars that clash with your shoes, you illiterate, dirt ingesting, monkey violating, aberrant promulgator of a sweaty cow’s high-jumping lunacy."



Naa, Naa, Na Naa, Ya!

Regards,                                 Rybka

 

[Guest]

Re: Native Religions

okay, I couldn't even read that far too long reply, you're preaching to the choir about how very unfair the natives of this country were treated. Although I don't have some degree in anthropology or cultural studies, mostly becaus I'm only 20, doesn't mean I'm completey ignorant about what has happened in the past. Actually I was raised to respect Native Americans and their cultures. I've studied their cultures and several different ones ranging all over the globe. It's one of my passions. I actually have quite an interest in anthropology, at one time wanting to go dig around in northern Europe to study the Celtic cultures there. And yes, I do believe that there are too many wannabes around here that only say they respect the native beliefs. It's all bull and usually is up there with the middle and far eastern fad that's been going on. Instead of trying to jump on me, which you have no reason to. There is a certain little entry in one of the Reader's Digests that you should spend that energy on. Some dumb ass who obviously has no clue about the poverty levels on most reservations, was denouncing the few ways the Native tribes have been able to get money. He was preaching on about how sad it was that some woman might have to lose her family land because a tribe had filed suit. Personally I wanted to drop kick this guys ass into a native woman's skin about two hundred years ago and see how he likes being raped, tortured, and otherwise brutalized. With the amount of passion you speak with, you're efforts are wasted on me. I think people need to hear the other side of the story, considering how many people subscribe to Reader's Digest. Actually, I think Reader's Digest should have had their asses kicked for even printing the article. It was racist, one-sides, and missimforming to say the least. X, I'd just ask you to wait before you jump to conclusions about me. You're right, you don't really know me at all, but you might be surprised with how much we are alike.

Sorry you didn't read all of my reply. If you did, you would have seen that I did not intend to make anyone feel guilty or point fingers. I wanted to provide another perspective; one which has often been obfuscated by American cultural hegemony. But I want to make myself clear--I'm not talking about "...how very unfair the Natives of this country WERE treated," (as you say). Rather, I tried to frame the current appropriation and manipulation/cultural reconstruction of Native spirituality and image within a historical context, in order to show how the current trend (of neo shamanism and Native stereotyping) is an extension of past injustices, even if it is not recognized as such by the dominant culture. I don't hate you, and I'm not charging you with genocide or anything of that nature. I know that you are a "friend of the Indian" and whatnot (as you make that very clear). I just want you to think a bit before you go about espousing the glories of Native religions (as you are familiar with them). I want you to consider how it may make certain other people feel. After all, shamans are highly respected people because they are doctors who have responsibilities to their communities (not something to be taken lightly or embarked upon solely for personal enlightenment). It would be akin to donning the robes of a priest or rabbi (without going through the complete training or making the life-long commitment to helping the congregational community) simply because you find it appealing and/or exotic and want to adopt elements for your personal spiritual quest. But no matter. I've already said what I wanted to say. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for. Just please, please, please (take note: I hardly ever beg, so this is significant ) try to consider what it is that you are doing and how it affects others. That's all.
--Xtaabay

 

[Guest]

Re: Thanks, Angie!

Xtaabay: "You drink your own bath water, you stringy, carrion devouring, cat bedeviling, belligerent brat of a lab experiment."

CrowFlysOver: "You wear flea collars that clash with your shoes, you illiterate, dirt ingesting, monkey violating, aberrant promulgator of a sweaty cow’s high-jumping lunacy."



Naa, Naa, Na Naa, Ya!

Regards,                                 Rybka

Err???
--Xtaabay

 

[Angeline]

You're Welcome Rybka

You are sooo gonna like the link of the day, which will be up in about a half hour.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Native Religions

Sorry you didn't read all of my reply. If you did, you would have seen that I did not intend to make anyone feel guilty or point fingers. I wanted to provide another perspective; one which has often been obfuscated by American cultural hegemony. But I want to make myself clear--I'm not talking about "...how very unfair the Natives of this country WERE treated," (as you say). Rather, I tried to frame the current appropriation and manipulation/cultural reconstruction of Native spirituality and image within a historical context, in order to show how the current trend (of neo shamanism and Native stereotyping) is an extension of past injustices, even if it is not recognized as such by the dominant culture. I don't hate you, and I'm not charging you with genocide or anything of that nature. I know that you are a "friend of the Indian" and whatnot (as you make that very clear). I just want you to think a bit before you go about espousing the glories of Native religions (as you are familiar with them). I want you to consider how it may make certain other people feel. After all, shamans are highly respected people because they are doctors who have responsibilities to their communities (not something to be taken lightly or embarked upon solely for personal enlightenment). It would be akin to donning the robes of a priest or rabbi (without going through the complete training or making the life-long commitment to helping the congregational community) simply because you find it appealing and/or exotic and want to adopt elements for your personal spiritual quest. But no matter. I've already said what I wanted to say. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for. Just please, please, please (take note: I hardly ever beg, so this is significant ) try to consider what it is that you are doing and how it affects others. That's all.
--Xtaabay

Alright. I give up. After receiving quite a few PMs from people, I'll just say I'm sorry I ever said anything. I thought I was being quite reasonable (see quote above), but apparently others disagree. So I'll just make my apologies for daring to voice a controversial opinion and go back to being silent about it.
--Xtaabay

 

[Angeline]

Please don't be silent

you have contributed so many wonderful poems and opinions to this board. You're a valuable member of the community, and the fact that you bring your particular experiences to it is an assest. Were it not for you, I would never have written my poem Chichen Itza (even if I did post it only to be teased about bait worms by some insane dog ).

I understood your points and they are impotant--well taken and, yes, something to bear in mind. No practitioner of whatever wants to feel their tradions or icons have been trivialized.

My only point was about tone--and if that was inappropriate, I apologize.

I hate to see new poets made to feel unwelcome and I was afraid that was happening (I was a teacher and I'm a mommy--I try to protect everyone, lol). But your ideas have great value, and really, I'd be among the first to defend them.

 

[Floater]

Xtabaay hero or villain - let history decide

Thank god for honest passion.

What's the problem?

Xtaabay spent a generous amount of time (nobody types THAT fast THAT accurately) outlining a detailed anatomy of something important he actually knows and cares about.

This detonated a discussion of potent passionate partisan participants - for which Mr X deserves an award I suggest should be specially created in his honour. Does he really deserve complaints he may have offended someone?

Frankly, I'm sure Crow can handle herself (eeerrrrrrrrr . . .) beautifully; any chivalrous cavalry rushing in to what they assume is her rescue should refer back to her failure to implode at frankly vicious & brutal comparisons of her poem with the hated Hallmark, as well as her robust response (unfair tho I felt it to be) to Mr X.

If they're not defending HER, what are they defending? Surely not our dubious right to blunder through life unchallenged incase we collapse in incontinent horror?

Shamanism, as she would probably be the first to agree, isn't an entertaining diversion that confers the status of being interesting - it's a real thing, so why not take issues surrounding it seriously? It's also a human thing, something people do. The WAY they do it is important; it changes how it works, what it becomes and what it means to other people.

Shamanism is actually also poetic - like poetry it recognises everything is saturated in a meaning which reaches beyond the immediately material into a world that has coherence, rules and that reflects back into the sphere we're familiar with, effecting changes in it. Both poetry & shamanism, when they're the real thing, tranform awareness, which in turn changes everything. That being so, a discussion of shamanism is as much at home here as sonnets and sestinas.

At the risk of sounding as if I want to be nice to everyone (heaven forfend) I think its a credit to the boarders that a string of this intensity and gravity appears - and for that we principally have Mr X to thank.

Anybody ever read Cutting through Spiritual Materialism by Chogyam Trungpa, pub Shambhala? It's a lucid joy.
Trungpa offended LOTS of people, but then the truth often does.

Stay passionate.

Floater's Ghost.

ps. anyone offended by any views expressed here, feel free to email me at:
donaldrumsfeld@chainsawstressmanagement.co.usa

 

[Floater]

PPS

I like crows - they give no ground to sentimental hopes


Cock's Crow

Gazing from open windows soothes my spirit -
Usually.
Eases the pressure of thought,
Settles memory,
Softens conscience -
I let it all go into the blue,
The pearly grey,
The starry dark.

Looking out this evening
My eyes met the scrutiny of a crow
Close, on a broken branch.
He extended his feathered arms like Dracula,
Then closed them with machined precision
Like a well oiled iron maiden.

His beak was blackened bone,
An ominous spear levelled at my heart.
He cocked his head,
Confident it could split
Even so small a target.

His eyes stayed rivetted on mine.

The mud-bed bottom of my mind stirred,
And in that floating world
Drowned dust devils
Lifted in their silent dances of regret:

The curving luxury of your breasts
My eyes widening in wonder;
Being shot like an arrow
From the tight bow of your hips
In delighted disbelief.
Like fairyland.

The ricochets of grief I started in your eyes
Still sting like the panicked cries of disaster.

A stark crow
On a dead branch.
Only when his darkness had filled my soul
Did he take off
For death's other kingdom.

 

[Guest]

Re: ??

was Rybka kidnapped and tortured by the Hallmark Company or something? There's a lot of anger towards them. I don't mind Hallmark, it's better than wasting my time trying to figure out something nice to say to someone I really don't like.

Your poem was interesting but it didn't flow. I like the choice of words but the content comes across as schizo. As for the BDSM subgenre, I dont see it being overdone in poems at all.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Okay, I wrote this one a while back. How can I help it? I think the punctuation is breaking it. In my head it sounds melodic. What do you think?


Wrap your flames around me,
Black unseeking doubt.
I'll hold the fire to my lips,
Or blow the whole thing out.

You're message takes me higher,
Angel from below.
Turn and twist and tear me out,
I'll never want to go.

Silken cords of costly words,
Are never far behind.
You only hold me in your arms,
And blow away my mind.

Seeking claws of anger,
Ripping at my bed.
Hold me under water,
Stop these demons in my head.

The stars above call out your name,
It's carved into my skin.
I'm waiting forthe dying light,
Sou you'll come to me again.

Your touches feel like heaven,
We glide and then we flow.
I want to stay forever,
But you say you have to go.

excellent, I would only do as I showed give the reader a pause
or a break to allow it to soak in and seperate topics or thoughts or sayings...very nice write

 

[Rybka]

???

I don't know why this has been brought forward, but I would suggest, if you have the time, that you read this thread from the beginning.
It is full of information, and also shows the "nature" of the bickering/interchange two years ago. - And MET, you wish to claim that this forum has not gone down hill since then?

It is great to have CSO back with us and I wish Owera was far more active, but she is far too busy getting ready for her Doctoral Oral Defense to come back to us now.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I don't know why this has been brought forward, but I would suggest, if you have the time, that you read this thread from the beginning.

It is full of information, and also shows the "nature" of the bickering/interchange two years ago. - And MET, you wish to claim that this forum has not gone down hill since then?

Oh, such sweet irony.