on line vs real

[wenchhh]

Primalgirl, thanks so much for stepping forward and saying something. This has all become a bunch of bs. Your husb asked for advice, ppl gave it, and then ppl ARGUED with the advice given. Seems to me that advice is just that, ppls opinion. I agree that Ice isn't the kinda guy to be a Predator, preying on a womans naivete or helplessness, and of COURSE you're not a damsel in distress, you're a strong woman who knows what she wants and is trying to obtain it legitly, with her husband or with his knowledge atleast. My hat is off to you. I hope it all works out, and in fact wouldn't mind talking with you via PM about this topic as we have some things in common. HUGS to you, girl.

 

[PrimalGirl]

..My Turn

Thanks Wenchie! Glad for the kudos from you! anytime you wanna chat- my ear is yours PG

 

[Evil_Geoff]

GULP..... oh crap... I think I just wet these panties, again. the big question is.... from fear, or excitement!!!

*LOL*

Either way, it's all good to me!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I think you need to focus on what I said, not your revision of what you think I said. Allow me to clarify..

I quote.."Combined with my need to understand in depth what makes people, woman, specifically, sub’s think the way they do."

I said I have a need to understand, this means I have spend a lot of time pondering the question. I made no clam beyond that point other than I have put a lot of effort into the task. I think making that effort puts me ahead of most on the subject but I surely make no clams to being an expert, only that the subject fascinates me to no end, like a puzzle that that can't be solved.

I also stated my spicific intrest is submissive women. Its my personal feeling that submissive men behave in a similar manor for similar reasons but I really have no idea nor do I care.

now trying to twist my words into some kind of slam on a women is really out there doll. I have a few women in my life right now and I can safely say all of them are more intelligent than myself.

You really got in left field on this post Cat. I have you peged as a romantic, and I know you don't care fo my hardass approach but lets at lease keep our differences clearly defined and correct













I'll let her note speak for itself and stand on its own merit. Your speculation on why she wrote it is as good as mine. I only mention it because I struck close to the truth in her mind at least. Which adds a bit of credibility to my efforts of attempting to understand the female sub thing.



To summarize your post Cat I think it was a gallant attempt to attack me as a Dom but you offer no argument to the debate which really got your blood flowing on vanilla moving to s/m.

Ice, I have come to realise just what sort of person you are, and believe me, it is not someone I would put on a pedestal. You are rude, you think you are superior because you are male, and I don't see you as Dominant in any way...domineering and obnoxious maybe, but those are not qualities I see in Dominants. And why you may ask? Well many points, not the least the one where I have told you on more than one occasion I find it offensive and unwelcome for you to refer to me as 'doll' and 'sweetheart' and any other such terms you like to throw around, but you continue to use them. My conclusion?.....you think you are being clever, you think you are putting 'the little woman' in her place, and you mean to use it to demean and/or patronise....problem is, the only thing it has done is to make you look like a fool and a fake to many on this forum. I imagine as a female slave you think I should submissively accept whatever you say or do as your right because you say you are a Dom of some experience...roflmao, you don't know me well then, I form my own opinions based on what I see and hear, and I submit to only one. Believe me, I have dealt face to face with more middle aged out of touch with the times people such as yourself to let your rudeness bother me, but if it is where you are stuck in your journey, good luck to you.

As to your assumptions you are something special because you 'try' to understand the mind of the female submissive...lol, you sure haven't cruised the threads here much. Seems to me it is one of the most popular topics on this forum and other online D/s forums of a similar nature. Not only are you not as unique as you thought, but your words and behaviour continue to show you really have no clue no matter how much thought you might have put into it. I suspect you spend more time trying to come up with paragraghs about jumping on your planes and your pilots etc., which I suspect were meant to impress but which I suspect only some believe to be more than fantasy, to ever be able to come close to understanding anyone's mind.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Ok, Ive remained silent in all this..NOW I will speak up and say my piece. I did send a PM to Ice..I liked what he had to say, and NO, he was not "RUSHING" to defend me or any other such thing. Im no "shrinking violet" or any thing like that at all. I take what I read w/ a grain of salt. Im not about to "fall prey" to anyone. Id like to think that I am SOMEWHAT intelligent . As far as me feeling like I was failing in the eyes of "MY D" NOPE, no such truth in that. The original person that I had started to have an online D/s relationship, failed in my eyes, so I CHOSE to move on. I just wanted to speak up, although I had chosen to remain in the background on this one, after reading that last post, I decided it was time for me to be heard. Sorry, not trying to stir up crap, BUT, Im not looking for a hero either. BTW, thanks for the many varied responses, it has been interesting (to say the least) to see the many ways suggested for my husband to "DOMINATE" me - LOL- PG

Sorry you felt so put out PrimalGirl, and thanks for posting. I must admit though, I am lost as to what you are saying because the OP was about your partner not feeling you gave him enough respect as a Dom when you switched and it was your turn to sub to him, your post here indicates you are talking about dumping an online Dom. I am so confused.

You are most welcome here, and you will find as someone newer to the world of D/s that you will gather a lot of valueable information, advice, and thoughts here to help you find what works best for you. As most will tell you, only you can know what it is that is going to unlock you from that place where you are not finding it as easy to show your respect to your Dom when he assumes that role.

As to the mention of falling prey...that was not primarily aimed at you, but it is something I have seen happen here many times over the years, often beginning with the Dom PMing the sub who is having difficulties, or a sub PMing their gratitude for a Dom on the forum supposedly acting in a way they found supportive of their needs, often against what their own Dom/me was saying. My personal take is it is dangerous to PM a Dom when you are having problems with your own, or they are having problems with you, unless you know that third party very well and can trust them to not take advantage of the situation. I might be biased, but any man who goes around calling women he does not know doll or sweetheart after being told it is considered offensive by a particular woman who he then continues to call such names, has the character of the online predator who has no resepct for others, least of all females...IOW, he is not a gentleman. If you choose to confide in someone who has such little regard for manners, that is your choice.

Catalina

 

[Ice2000]

Sorry you felt so put out PrimalGirl, and thanks for posting. I must admit though, I am lost as to what you are saying because the OP was about your partner not feeling you gave him enough respect as a Dom when you switched and it was your turn to sub to him, your post here indicates you are talking about dumping an online Dom. I am so confused.

You are most welcome here, and you will find as someone newer to the world of D/s that you will gather a lot of valueable information, advice, and thoughts here to help you find what works best for you. As most will tell you, only you can know what it is that is going to unlock you from that place where you are not finding it as easy to show your respect to your Dom when he assumes that role.

As to the mention of falling prey...that was not primarily aimed at you, but it is something I have seen happen here many times over the years, often beginning with the Dom PMing the sub who is having difficulties, or a sub PMing their gratitude for a Dom on the forum supposedly acting in a way they found supportive of their needs, often against what their own Dom/me was saying. My personal take is it is dangerous to PM a Dom when you are having problems with your own, or they are having problems with you, unless you know that third party very well and can trust them to not take advantage of the situation. I might be biased, but any man who goes around calling women he does not know doll or sweetheart after being told it is considered offensive by a particular woman who he then continues to call such names, has the character of the online predator who has no resepct for others, least of all females...IOW, he is not a gentleman. If you choose to confide in someone who has such little regard for manners, that is your choice.

Catalina

I think I am going to be doing this a lot , This looks like a Great place to start.

Catalina I will no longer call you a Romantic as it might offend you in some way, but I will offer an explanation of your behavior each and every time I see you making accusations against me and others that are totally unfounded and untrue as a result of your emotions running away from you.


Lets look at the real truth here, and let Lit judge who is vanilla here.

Fact: You did not like my belief that it is extremely difficult for a vanilla relationship to go BDSM, you elected to attack me rather than disagree with my reasoning.

Fact : I did call you Doll, and before I realize it offended you I referred to you as a Sweetheart. I immediately apologized both publicly and privately and assured you privately it would not happen again. The private message was clear and crisp with no BS or hidden meanings. A straight sensor apology and an assurance I would not do it again.

Fact: YOU are the only woman on Lit I have ever PM'd unsolicited. That message was in the form of an apology and 10 hours after I'm sure you received the message you call me an online predator.

Fact: You are stereotyping and degrading others in an attempt to attack me. Primalgirl on this thread, and what, the entire western culture on another?

Fact: when I make a mistake I immediately apologize. When you make a mistake you what? Continue to offer offer Primalgirl your worldly advice? Amazing..


The only thing I have said negative about you is that your emotions seriously effect your decision making ability. I offer facts to back that charge. Sense You accuse me of degrading women let me add that this is a personality type common in men and women. But I make this charge against you, not all women of the world

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think I am going to be doing this a lot , This looks like a Great place to start.

Catalina I will no longer call you a Romantic as it might offend you in some way, but I will offer an explanation of your behavior each and every time I see you making accusations against me and others that are totally unfounded and untrue as a result of your emotions running away from you.


Lets look at the real truth here, and let Lit judge who is vanilla here.

Fact: You did not like my belief that it is extremely difficult for a vanilla relationship to go BDSM, you elected to attack me rather than disagree with my reasoning.

Fact : I did call you Doll, and before I realize it offended you I referred to you as a Sweetheart. I immediately apologized both publicly and privately and assured you privately it would not happen again. The private message was clear and crisp with no BS or hidden meanings. A straight sensor apology and an assurance I would not do it again.

Fact: YOU are the only woman on Lit I have ever PM'd unsolicited. That message was in the form of an apology and 10 hours after I'm sure you received the message you call me an online predator.

Fact: You are stereotyping and degrading others in an attempt to attack me. Primalgirl on this thread, and what, the entire western culture on another?

Fact: when I make a mistake I immediately apologize. When you make a mistake you what? Continue to offer offer Primalgirl your worldly advice? Amazing..


The only thing I have said negative about you is that your emotions seriously effect your decision making ability. I offer facts to back that charge. Sense You accuse me of degrading women let me add that this is a personality type common in men and women. But I make this charge against you, not all women of the world

OK, seeing as you continue to go back to whether people can switch from vanilla to BDSM within the same relationship (which BTW I didn't address earlier today due to time constraints and the fact it has been addressed already). If you go back in this thread alone to my post which is 3rd after the OP, and before you made any comments, you will see I said it is often difficult to make that switch, especially if also involving switching within the same relationship and roles, but with mental work and a real desire to do so, it is not impossible. As Dixie herself told you, she has in her own long marriage done just that, and successfully....she is not the only one. Where I believe it becomes a problem more often is when the people or person involved and having difficulty making the shift cannot fully move from thinking in a lifelong trained thought process which holds to mainstream ideas and behaviours....and if you have read other posts throughout the years, you will see I also say this is often difficult at various times for even the most seasoned D/s person simply because for most of us it is what we were taught from birth and D/s often is challenging everything about those teachings, not to mention going against what most of society and it's infrastructures and customs are set up to support and promote as healthy.

Then you offered the fact PrimalGirl had PMed you as support you were correct and you also had great understanding of the female submissive mind....PrimalGirl's husband has said she finds it difficult to act in a way he sees as respectfuilly submissive and if I remember correctly she also said she is probably more comfortable in the Dominant role....so I don't see her as a great reference of proof for understanding how a female submissive thinks, though it may be an examle of how a female trying to conform to and please in the submissive role thinks and feels....there is a difference.

Now let's address the degrading of others including PG...no I didn't degrade or put her down, or you, or anyone...I actually defended her position from the first page of being publicly outed this way and then expected to feel submissive and respectful. I offered some suggestions for how she might be feeling of which I could have added a dozen more, which in themselves were not degrading but acknowledging once again that she was not in an enviable or easy position, nor did I think it was helpful (as I pointed out) for her husband to compare her behaviour, to his, especially publicly, which he felt (and we only have his word on it) is examplary when in the sub role. Now how is that putting her down or degrading her?

And yes, I am well aware both women and men can be degrading to men and women...I never said anything different, but nor was I aware it was a topic for discussion or excused you for being such in my perception. As to your PM....I still have not read it, nor have I read the others that have been awaiting me since this morning simply because I have a life and I had a full day without including anything online. If you apologised, fine. I can accept that, but if I had never said anything about how I felt about your countless moments of addressing me in ways I found yuk, I would have no grounds to complain when or if you continue it and you would be unaware of how or if you had offended. I find communication far better than sitting here bitching behind scenes to people and never letting you know where you might be treading on my or someone else's toes so you at least have the opportunity to modify your speech to those who do not welcome it. Beleive me, I have been called endearing terms by other PYL's here, but usually after they have known me for awhile and we have reached some sort of familiarity on the board. I have been called a lot of less flattering names too, and abused, but that is life and I cannot help how others choose to react or interpret my words..it happens all the time and to everyone at some point or another...comes with the territory of public forums I have found.

As for being emotional...well that has actually been a huge positive in most of my life, especially my professional life where it saw me able to deal with situations most couldn't simply because they were unable to feel the emotions others were experiencing and made it a rule to remove emotions from their work and often personal life. That is not me, and fortunately I am slave to one who is also highly emotional and passionate. I'm sorry you see it as a negative, I see it as aplus in the world we live in where most couldn't care less about their fellow man, especialy if it cost them something.

Regardless, I didn't see myself as being emotional simply because I told you I didn't like the way you addressed me, or I didn't agree 100% with what you had said on everything...and I was not alone but I notice you do not say anything to anyone else. Remember, I am not the one tossing around accusations of being under attack, being degraded, simply because someone dared to politely say they did not like how you addressed them, nor could they agree with all you said. Given you have only seemed to challenge Marquis and myself, one has to wonder if it has something to do with our being moderators making it worth your while to debate everything we say in reference to your points. Oh then again, you did remark Cutie Mouse's marriage had failed because she had tried to go D/s at which point she corrected you and told you it had nothing to do with the end of her marriage....but your response didn't offer an apology for the misunderstanding (ignored it in fact), but did continue to patronise (another female coincidentally) by giving her permission to keep on saying what she thinks because you think that it is OK for her to do that and you want her to...sheesh, since when did she need your or anyone's permission to post in the way she always has since 2004? I actually am beginning to think you don't even see what you do as patronising and offensive because you are so used to thinking and doing it that way. I also get the impression if anyone is emotional over the topic and postings, it is you.

Now western society...blah, I don't have a lot of time for it these days, nor have I most of my life. Many (governments in particular) are more concerned with making money, (governments) controlling their citizens by whatever means, using their money to gain special advantage, shafting those around them for their own gain, greed, deception, lacking much in areas of values and/or ethics, and no longer have the ability to feel for their fellow human being. There are many that do, but those who hold power over our lives rarely do, and have influenced the thought patterns and bahaviours of many of the citizens of western society. You see, if western society really cared for the third world and others less fortunate than ourselves, they could end third world debt tomorrow, put an end to poverty, provide adequate health care for not only 3rd world countries but their own western citizens, but they don't do they? And that is only the tip of the iceberg.

You only have to listen to most politicians, and those who feel they speak for the people such as Bill O'Reilly, to hear them speak of the ending of innocent human life with no more passion or empathy than they would put into yawning when they wake up in the morning. To them people are expendable if it means capital gain or power....scare tactics based on lies are used to sell their lies as fact. Religion has become a commodity also....there are few who truly commit to it in the way intended....a few people (KC, Graceanne to name a couple) here do I am pleased to say, but on the whole the churches and places of worship in the western world are filled with people who do so out of fear, looking for an insurance policy on immortality, making the right contacts for business or government, looking good, and gaining power. And then of course, to keep it tentatively connected to BDSM and sexuality as a topic, those who make the laws which prevent many of us doing what we like in our bedrooms without breaking any laws or involving any non-consenting participants, and risking imprisonment or financial punishment, are the same ones we see plastered across the headlines from time to time when they are caught with their own hand in the illegal honeypot...only difference is, they often suffer anything more than damaged pride the world found out, maybe a change of job often with a golden handshake, and for clergy found guilty of molesting children, they get transferred to another parish where their behaviour is not reported and continue to live just as they did before only with a change of address and a fresh batch of victims. So no, I don't see western society or any society for that matter as perfect..so shoot me for expressing my opinion instead of being a sheep and following along believing all is wonderful or at least pretending to and hoping it all works out in the end.

Catalina

 

[Ice2000]

wow.. this hurts my head but good post Catalina.


I won't re quote all this but will respond to a few key points.

First, let me make the point that I never said your high level of emotion was a bad thing. I only said your comments were emotionally driven and clouding your ability to reason. At least I hope that is the case, it would at least make me feel a bit better about some of the wild things you have said.

As far as the Cutiemouses thing goes, I did not make mention of any reason why her relationship failed, I don't know and that is none of my business. I only pointed out it was a failed thing .. one of the hundred I had referring to. She added additional information that sounded reasonable to me and I saw no reason to comment further. If I offender her by using her situation as an example I assure you that was not the intent. As you have mentioned and she has demonstrated in many posts, she is a very intelligent person, I'm sure if she was offended she would say something.

Next the Marquis thing...now that was Fun!!! Marquis is extremely quick on his feet and a real challenge to debate. Frankly lots of things he said went right over my head until I read them a couple of times. But he used facts and reasoning to make his points. Talking specifically about what I said or did. And clearly stated everything said was meant in a lite hearted way.. my only regret is he didn't fire back again to keep the exchange going.


Now let me talk about where emotion can be a bad thing. You say that you meant no insult? I truly believe that and have every sense we started this little debate we have going. But I also believe your emotions to be spewing and and cloud your ability to realize what your saying. So let me ask you a few things.

Here is a list of things I find offensive.

You have accused me of lying directly. specifically when I apologized on 2 threads and PMed you. Your response was something to the effect of, I don't believe you or accept what you said.,, But today you have a different view? who knows?

You have called me a sexual predator, perhaps there is a little truth in this but I doubt seriously in the way you meant it.

a male chauvinist pig? I confess to opening doors for women if that is what you meant? but I don't think it was? I challenge you to product anything I have said that associates me to that stereotype.

I also find it offensive for you to start telling me all the things I believe when I have said no such thing. And you don't know me from Adam. So how in the hell do you know what I think?



You and I have a difference in culture going on. For example, I would not mind if your Dom flirted like crazy with my women. I would see that as a compliment. They know there limits, and I have no fear that someone could steal them. If he did something that crossed the line and they told him.. I would expect him to back of as I did and say sorry if he didn't know. I do have western views, along with millions of others. That does not make us bad people as you have insinuated in your posts.

EG made an excellent post a couple of days back.. Dom's are people, we are all different. As far as me being good or bad, better or worse than other dominate males I make no clams. I don't read minds, or know what might be offensive to you and yours. Sing out if I step on your toes.. because I will be in your face when you step on mine.


So.. I will ask again, did you mean all the things you have stated ? or was that emotion talking? or please explain how I miss read or misunderstood?

 

[Ice2000]

Ahh Catalina... was hoping you were going to keep digging here but I see your making indirect comments on other threads, I'm sure that has nothing to do with me


I guess your fan club is right, no matter how off the wall your comments it is not possible for you to admit a mistake. sad but true I'm afraid.


Anyway I will close with this ... if you don't like to engage in verbal war.. do not play with verbal bombs. Name calling really isn't cool even when you have hard information to back you up. And it really reflects badly when it is total fabrication.


Until next time

Your friendly neighborhood bad guy...

Ice