online humiliation

[FurryFury]

You, as always, are making complete sense Fury. When the need to avoid out of proportion reactions is present, the skills to make that happen become almost ingrained. But, as you say, if carried over to a relationship how can the true building blocks of faith and trust be maintained.

I do have to say I’m probably closer to Shy on this though that I would prefer to not be placed in a position of temptation. Not that I might not be willing to attempt some task, but if something interfered with accomplishing it I’m afraid I would fall back on pre-established habits. I'd like to think I'd have the fortitude to follow Captains Wench's example, but never having been truly tested on this I just don't know. The reluctance to disappoint and the fear of affection being withdrawn can be a very powerful motivator.

Rox.

Thank you for your kind words Rox!

The kind of honesty you are giving here is admirable.

I think it's a good thing to say, hey I simply don't know until I'm in that position.

I do agree about motivators like that being powerful as well.

I believe a really good Dom doesn't set one up to fail. Hopefully they do know one well enough to be able to gauge that sort of thing.

Fury

 

[Pure]

the captain's

wench said,

I think most people think like shy. [about humiliation?]

no, i don't think so.

in any case, "most people" don't practice SM.

 

[the captians wench]

wench said,

I think most people think like shy. [about humiliation?]

no, i don't think so.

in any case, "most people" don't practice SM.

Forgive me, I ment in that it's easy to just lie rather than to confess something that might cause some one's disaproval or something like that. The whole "why not just lie about it" or "just don't tell him" type thinking. And I wasn't refurring just to SM practices. Maybe it's just that I work with a lot of teens that this seems to be a popular way of thinking.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I have said this time and again.

Personally there is a high chance I would lie.

He knows that, I have been honest and upfront about it, yet when I dare say such things in a post I am often told how disrespectful I am.

It is not disrespect, it is non-compliance over something I have no interest in doing and he has no way of knowing if I actually achieved it. As part of my needs I want him to see the results of my doing something he has asked for.

Because I have been honest about the potential of my lying to him he does not choose to exert control over me in this way.

I do not consider it 'topping from the bottom' I consider it a part of an honest relationship.

He does not ask me to cum on command, inflict pain on myself, nor does he micro-manage me from a distance. All of which he could do.

The downside is when he asks me to do someting, I know he means it. I know it has a specific purpose and he has a reason other than 'because he says so' for stating he wants it to happen.

If I then lied then, yes, it would be disrespectful.

He does not do online or any other form of humiliation.
When I first became aware of BDSM and D/s it was something I really wanted to happen and I was very interested in meeting someone who would/could do this.

However, reality is different. I agree with all the posters who have said it can leave psychological damage without the person doing the humiliation being aware of it.
Anyone who has issues they struggle with may understand my view that, in general, they are not something we parade in public. Therefore if something is said that affects us at a deeper level we may not say how it has affected us. Initiallly we may not realise they extent of its' affect until days/months/years later.

No-one can crawl completely inside another persons mind.

I now see verbal humiliation in the same way as some people view breath control ~ A place never to go no matter what (personally the times he has used breath control, I have found it wonderful).

In another thread it was said that subs are fragile. To cope with humiliation, online or not, you cannot be fragile. You need to be sure in your own mind of who you are and what you like about yourself. All of that needs to be seperate from an inner understanding of a desire and wish to be a pyl.

i agree with everything you said, right up to the point of to 'handle being humiliated, you cannot be 'fragile' ' i am 'fragile' emotionally, Master has changed alot of that in me and made me a much stronger person, BUT He has also done humiliation play, no, not to the extreme of poking fun of me being fat or of any of my insecurities. i think there is a BIG difference between playing one's weaknesses and insecurities than there is humiliating them. if you are playing on their insecurities you could and probably will do damage to their psyche. BUT, making them Masturbate in their car, in the parking lot of a place that anyone could walk by and see what they are doing....that to me is humiliation and would do nothing to my 'psyche' if i were caught (and i was by the way *giggles* but that's another story for another thread) my point is, to humiliate someone you do not need to make their insecurities about themselves worse, there are plenty of other ways to do humiliation play. and i agree completely with fury's above comment about it being my job to put myself down and His place to reassure me..i know that wasn't a direct quote and i'm sorry, but i'm too lazy to look it up *grins*

 

[wogult]

On the lighter side

One day a man came home from work to find his wife crying hysterically in the kitchen.
"What's wrong dearest??" asked the confused husband.

"Oh darling," sobbed the wife, "I was cleaning little Suzie's room when I found whips, handcuffs and chains under her bedm, along with a very erotic porn magazine! What ever are we going to do???"

"Well," replied the man...
"I guess a spanking is out of the question?"

 

[Kailey_86]

One day a man came home from work to find his wife crying hysterically in the kitchen.
"What's wrong dearest??" asked the confused husband.

"Oh darling," sobbed the wife, "I was cleaning little Suzie's room when I found whips, handcuffs and chains under her bedm, along with a very erotic porn magazine! What ever are we going to do???"

"Well," replied the man...
"I guess a spanking is out of the question?"

This made me laugh out loud. Just what i needed. Thanks.

 

[myinnerslut]

One day a man came home from work to find his wife crying hysterically in the kitchen.
"What's wrong dearest??" asked the confused husband.

"Oh darling," sobbed the wife, "I was cleaning little Suzie's room when I found whips, handcuffs and chains under her bedm, along with a very erotic porn magazine! What ever are we going to do???"

"Well," replied the man...
"I guess a spanking is out of the question?"

Sir tells me that joke all the time except replaces my name with "suzie"

 

[wickedlady31]

fragile

It is hard for me to even think that a sub can be 'fragile.' As for a Dom having limits, sure...everyone has some limits...but the fun of it all is to push those limits.
I have been both...a sub and a dom.....not to a professional extent or something I do often....To be a sub one must bestow trust on another....but it should waiver a bit.....trust. What is the fun...if there is complete trust? The truth is, with ME, I like the unknown variable. I like not knowing whether or not my 'master' is going to read my signs of pain or fear and stop....will he care? The element of the unknown is the most erotic. AS for humilation....I don't think I can be really...humiliated. First of all...putting panties in my mouth while masturbating is just part of the game...it is not humiliating. Being pissed on..is not humilating.....even though it is meant to be. Picking on my fat could be...but if done in the context of being dominated...well I know it is part of the 'game.'

Now as a master, in my mind...if my sub is willing to be just that, then they are willing to take on just about anything I want them to. Their opinions do not matter as they are my sub.....will I go out of my way to humiliate? No...that is not what I do....but will I make them question just how far I am willing to go....yes....that is the control element...the fun of it all. Feelings should not impart on this 'game' or life style....it is thinking and acting outside of the box......the only feelings...should be the physical....
With that being said.....humiliation is possible...but it all depends on the subject...and the willingness of both parties...*******...like pure said...would be a task....as i could easily say...yes master, I spanked my ass with a wooden spoon 100 times and then masterbated, chanting your commands over and over again...
And not even having done a bit of it.....

Trust in the truth..*******? Ha! I doubt it.....that is part of the 'game'

I think it would be more usefull and more fun..to do all of this...face to face...in person....in the flesh....

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Trust in the truth..*******? Ha! I doubt it.....that is part of the 'game'

I think it would be more usefull and more fun..to do all of this...face to face...in person....in the flesh....

well i've been in an 'online'/'phone/LDR for 3 years, and i can tell you that trust can be built in this type of relationship, of course it is MORE fun to do all of it face to face, but it can be intense in an LDR also, i know from experience. as far as TOTAL trust never being there in this type of relationshiop? how could you NOT have total trust in your Dom, that He/She will not cross the line, the boundries, or limits that have been set. yes, i agree it's a big part of the 'thrill' to wonder what He's going to do to me next, but if i didn't trust Him completely to not Harm me, then i wouldn't be in the relationship with Him, that's Vanilla or D/s.... you keep referring to the lifestyle as 'the game' i do not see any aspect of the life Master and i live as a 'game'

 

[Toa_lin]

well i've been in an 'online'/'phone/LDR for 3 years, and i can tell you that trust can be built in this type of relationship, of course it is MORE fun to do all of it face to face, but it can be intense in an LDR also, i know from experience. as far as TOTAL trust never being there in this type of relationshiop? how could you NOT have total trust in your Dom, that He/She will not cross the line, the boundries, or limits that have been set. yes, i agree it's a big part of the 'thrill' to wonder what He's going to do to me next, but if i didn't trust Him completely to not Harm me, then i wouldn't be in the relationship with Him, that's Vanilla or D/s.... you keep referring to the lifestyle as 'the game' i do not see any aspect of the life Master and i live as a 'game'

I am in total agreement here. I don't KNOW my sub does all i've told her to, but I trust that she has. Just like she trusts me not to cross any boundry we've set. and I also agree, i do not see it as a game.

And as far as humiliation goes, it's also possible to "humilliate" someone by not striking any of there uncertainties or insecurities, but instead take something they're comfortible with, and have them do it different somehow. Someone who enjoys masterbating in teh car scene, have them instead go to a small, mostly deserted park or camp-ground where the chances are still slim, buy possible, and have them masterbate in the open. It's all abotu pushing their reservations WITHOUT pushing the boundires or lines in my mind.

 

[neonflux]

Degradation is part of a lot of fantasize of mine but in RL I would not be eager to degrade or be degraded. There is a LOT I would never do to either humiliate or degrade my husband intentionally or anyone else I would play with.

I do like to think that with the right partner I could deal with humiliation and even degradation though I am not seeking it out, as I said.

Once I took on a task that I later felt was in fact degrading. It was the last task I was able to do at the BDSM academy because I felt like some sort of performing dog or circus clown and it was for someone I didn't even have a connection with.

I was once assigned something that was a little humiliating by someone I didn't really have a relationship with. He was however someone I both feared and respected. I was honored to be asked to do that task by him though it frightened me as well. In that case I did it, felt good about it and even went further than asked. That was a good experience.

I never really thought of the two being separate before because I blend them in my fantasys and mind. The definitions make sense to me though.

Fury

Fury, does it make sense to say that it sounds like part of the difference in terms of your response was your relationship and the amount of respect for /trust you had in the person? That is interesting, and it also makes sense... (Second experience sounds like a really good one.) Interesting also, isn't it, that there could be such a big difference between fantasy and RL?

Neon

 

[neonflux]

I am in total agreement here. I don't KNOW my sub does all i've told her to, but I trust that she has. Just like she trusts me not to cross any boundry we've set. and I also agree, i do not see it as a game.

And as far as humiliation goes, it's also possible to "humilliate" someone by not striking any of there uncertainties or insecurities, but instead take something they're comfortible with, and have them do it different somehow. Someone who enjoys masterbating in teh car scene, have them instead go to a small, mostly deserted park or camp-ground where the chances are still slim, buy possible, and have them masterbate in the open. It's all abotu pushing their reservations WITHOUT pushing the boundires or lines in my mind.

Toa_lin - like this explanation in your second paragraph. Would you then differentiate between degradation and humiliation? Neon

 

[JMohegan]

Do other folks distinguish between humiliation and degradation, or does it all kind of blend into one? In a class I took, the instructors differentiated between the two:

1) Humiliation - getting someone to do something that might embarrass them, but that turns them on and that they wouldn't do otherwise without being ordered to (for us, leading my kink partner around by his cock in the community play space on a ferret leash or him "exhibiting" me at a sex club or sexual activity late at night in a semi-public/secluded space)

vs.

2) Degradation - something that impacts the person's self esteem, makes them feel lesser than they are... (I assume that this would vary greatly from person to person, particularly perhaps when it comes to deep shadow play.)

Are there things you've been told to do or ordered someone else to do that you later regretted? Or are there things you would never do/ask your partner to do because you'd feel it moving into degradation?

Just wondering,
Neon

I am primarily a Websters man myself.

embarrass = to cause confusion and shame to; make uncomfortably self-conscious; disconcert; abash

humiliate = to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify


Your example #1 I would call erotic embarrassment. Your #2 I'd call humiliation.

I realize that the modern BDSM world has altered dictionary definitions of many words, and I am not criticizing your instructors for doing so.

However, the people I know who practice humiliation as part of their SM repertoire would say that the point of humiliation is that it stings. Depending on the level of the Top's sadism, the sting may range from mild to severe. But the point is - it hurts.

I agree with Pure. There is no line between humiliation and "being mean" in the conventional sense. (A similar comment would apply to the delivery of physical pain as well.)

I also share Shy's concern that "it can leave psychological damage without the person doing the humiliation being aware of it." I have never been into humiliation, and this is one of the reasons why.

 

[FurryFury]

Fury, does it make sense to say that it sounds like part of the difference in terms of your response was your relationship and the amount of respect for /trust you had in the person? That is interesting, and it also makes sense... (Second experience sounds like a really good one.) Interesting also, isn't it, that there could be such a big difference between fantasy and RL?

Neon

I think that does make sense. I learned soon after joining the BDSM Academy that if I didn't have someone I cared for, respected, or even knew at all, asking tasks of me that there were at most, six I would want to do just for the sensation and exploration of it. Six out of hundreds were all I could come up with that I desired to do for my own interests.

At first that made me feel I wasn't doing too well. One of the people on that site said that someone who is submissive is like that. It's important to them who is telling them what to do. It certainly is to me.

On my list of tasks that I was willing to do, I had a ton of things. However in my head it was all contingent upon being with the right person at the right time and there being trust between us. I don't think the people on the site took it that way though.

For my own amusement I also made a list of what I wouldn't do. These were things that go up against my hard limits. Again with the right person, at the right time I actually think most of these could change but anyway that was what I did.

I learned a lot about myself. To me a task in which you learn something that will perhaps help you grow and move on is a good one. That is why this was one of my desired tasks in the first place.

The second task in my post above didn't really teach me that much. What it did was make me feel good to have pleased. I also felt good to have stepped out of my comfort zone and deliver what the person I respected asked for.

In the past with my first online Master. It was wonderful to please him with doing tasks for him but I also learned a lot from tasks he gave. I enjoyed pushing past obstacles I had long wished to shed and I enjoyed what I learned.

In fantasy though, I do all kinds of things. In those I'm well past almost all of my limits and I like it that way. So yes fantasies are very different from RL for me, most of the time. Once I actually do something in RL that was once a fantasy, and let me say a lot of stuff in my fantasies I may not really want to do ever, (many assume you want to do ALL of that stuff and that's not true IMO), then unless I REALLY enjoyed it and want more, it leaves my fantasies.
My fantasy land is mostly full of taboos I haven't done yet. That's what makes that stuff hot to me. It's dirty, it's wrong, it's degrading, it's humiliating. I feel guilty. OMG! That's soooo hot! Ya know?

Fury

 

[the captians wench]

I am primarily a Websters man myself.

embarrass = to cause confusion and shame to; make uncomfortably self-conscious; disconcert; abash

humiliate = to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify


Your example #1 I would call erotic embarrassment. Your #2 I'd call humiliation.

I realize that the modern BDSM world has altered dictionary definitions of many words, and I am not criticizing your instructors for doing so.

However, the people I know who practice humiliation as part of their SM repertoire would say that the point of humiliation is that it stings. Depending on the level of the Top's sadism, the sting may range from mild to severe. But the point is - it hurts.

I agree with Pure. There is no line between humiliation and "being mean" in the conventional sense. (A similar comment would apply to the delivery of physical pain as well.)

I also share Shy's concern that "it can leave psychological damage without the person doing the humiliation being aware of it." I have never been into humiliation, and this is one of the reasons why.

I think that's why I've never considered myself a humiliation player. i always thought that to be humiliated, I'd have to be emotionally hurt where as anything that I've been asked to do so far has only caused slight embarassment.

Embarassment I can deal with, it doesn't last long....besides I blush realy pretty.

 

[neonflux]

I am primarily a Websters man myself.

embarrass = to cause confusion and shame to; make uncomfortably self-conscious; disconcert; abash

humiliate = to cause (a person) a painful loss of pride, self-respect, or dignity; mortify


Your example #1 I would call erotic embarrassment. Your #2 I'd call humiliation.

I realize that the modern BDSM world has altered dictionary definitions of many words, and I am not criticizing your instructors for doing so.

However, the people I know who practice humiliation as part of their SM repertoire would say that the point of humiliation is that it stings. Depending on the level of the Top's sadism, the sting may range from mild to severe. But the point is - it hurts.

I agree with Pure. There is no line between humiliation and "being mean" in the conventional sense. (A similar comment would apply to the delivery of physical pain as well.)

I also share Shy's concern that "it can leave psychological damage without the person doing the humiliation being aware of it." I have never been into humiliation, and this is one of the reasons why.

By your definition, I am into erotic embarrasment, then. Regarding your definition of humiliation, mine of degradation, one of the other things that concerns me is that sometimes I think that it's difficult for someone in a submissive role to say no when they actually should have. for instance, i'm sure that most of us have known of people who were so into the sensory stimulation of a particular sadistic practice that it was the Dom/me who had to stop because either the sub either wasn't aware of the extent of possible physical damage or the sub was so into sub space that s/he couldn't say her/his safe word or use her/his gesture.

To me, real physical damage can be bad enough. But the potential psychological damage could be so much worse (a Leatherman friend of mine once had to spend 3 days putting someone together whose psychological scene with another Dom had gone terribly wrong). When Topping, I would never want to be responsible for doing this to anyone else.

At least for me when bottoming, if I were deep enough into it, I know that I would find it harder to say Yellow to an instance of degradation than to a hard physical limit, especially because with physical stuff, I am more aware of what my limits are. Perhaps there might be safety online since it wouldn't necessarily be directly "in the moment" so I would have time to reflect.

Re - making something sting - what you call erotic embarrassment can also sting a bit, I think. For instance - I bottomed at my kink partner's graduation play party for a weekend course he took. (This was the very intimate session that put into such deep sub drop.) At one point, he did something with me in front of the instructors that I found deeply, deeply embarrassing (he could have gone much further but I do trust him to know my limits), particularly because I know and have professional relationships with a couple of them. It stung deeply at the time - I even felt compelled to tell him that I was tempted to be completely rude and sammy - but in retrospect it was actually a lot of fun...

Perhaps the difference is that the sting doesn't cause a sense of permanent ego loss? Then again, how would one know for sure ahead of time? (In this case, he knows me well enough that I am sure he knew I would feel fine with it later.)

Anyway, this seems to me to be a MUCH greyer area than others within the BDSM world...

Neon

Oh, P.S., still working on the Portia assessment - am currently rereading.

 

[JMohegan]

By your definition, I am into erotic embarrasment, then. Regarding your definition of humiliation, mine of degradation, one of the other things that concerns me is that sometimes I think that it's difficult for someone in a submissive role to say no when they actually should have. for instance, i'm sure that most of us have known of people who were so into the sensory stimulation of a particular sadistic practice that it was the Dom/me who had to stop because either the sub either wasn't aware of the extent of possible physical damage or the sub was so into sub space that s/he couldn't say her/his safe word or use her/his gesture.

This is related to Shy's concern, and once again - I agree.

My personal rule has always been: Obey the safeword, but play as if a safeword system were not in place. Meaning: it is ultimately *my* responsibility to stop before things go too far.

I know how to check for physical clues, but psychological? That's something else entirely.

Of course, people in some healthy relationships *do* engage in humiliation/degradation and the fact that I don't know how it's done doesn't make it wrong. Part of my reason for avoiding this type of sadism may be summarized by the concerns expressed above, but part of it clearly is that I'm a physical and concrete kind of a guy much more so than someone who thrives on the abstract.

Oh, P.S., still working on the Portia assessment - am currently rereading.

Really? *grins* I look forward to reading your assessment, whenever you're done.

 

[msteel4u]

On-line S&M

I know that this can work, but it takes two dedicated people. Honesty with each other enhances the experience. I was lucky enough to find the best sub in the world, quite by accident while surfing a chat room. We were with each other for a couple of years. In real life she had met a guy, got married, all the while we had our on-line relationship. She got pregnant and requested her release because of needing to give attention to her r/l. Naturally I obliged.

I have looked around but I never found anyone quite like her. It was fun, exciting, sexy at times, erotic at times and comforting at times as well. So, yes, it can work with the right people, with similar interests and equal dedication to making it work. Undoubtedly a real life relationship is entirely different, but has it's pros and cons as well.

Steel

P.S. If anyone knows of where I might find promising subs like this, drop me a note!

hi, just wanted to get an opinion or some advice, as to wether you believe that it is possible to truley playfully humiliate and tease a willing person online.

what can be used to make them feel dirty, while on thee own?

any suggestions, comments would be appriecated

thanks

 

[AAkasha]

hi, just wanted to get an opinion or some advice, as to wether you believe that it is possible to truley playfully humiliate and tease a willing person online.

what can be used to make them feel dirty, while on thee own?

any suggestions, comments would be appriecated

thanks

So much more can be done if you combine online with a digital camera and telephone. The key to humiliating a man, I have found, is making sure he is not only degraded, but he knows that his situation is really turning me on. A lot of it is verbal, so a telephone is key. I want to hear his discomfort and whimpering on the other line.

If I am making him do something, like dress up in lingerie I sent him, I can call him a pathetic sissy, make him tell me he's my bitch, make him admit he loves to suck cock, etc. Then make him slurp on a big dildo. All of this is live interaction, even though it is long distance. If I can see him performing on video, I can critique his ability and then humiliate him more.

Online training CAN be effective if both partners are honest and creative. I have made men do many things online, via email or chat -- but they have to be honest. If I tell him to go put red panties on and go shopping at a lingerie store and hand a note over that I wrote, he has to be honest and do it. He will be humiliated as a result, because I know what pushes his buttons.

Does your partner know what your humiliation "buttons" are? That's also key. If you are humiliated by being forced to eat your own cum, for example, she could make you freeze and save if and then eat it next time you want to earn release. Not only make you eat it, but make you BEG to eat it. If you are being honest and following through...you will indeed feel humiliated.

Akasha

 

[FurryFury]

Nice to see you here AAkasha! You've been missed! I knew this thread could benefit from your wisdom and experience!

Fury

 

[Hisbabydoll26]

My opinion is if you don't have trust you don't have anything. I personally won't do that sort of camera stuff. It goes against my nature and my caution for my professional life. If you believe in my sincere desire and trust me great. If not we are done here, thank you, move along.

Oh and talking about me being fat, that is my part. Your part is to reassure me damn it.

Fury

Amen to that last part *giggling*