Parents of 4-year-olds!

[Guest]

I feel sorry for him for having a mother who doesn't realize that a child needs firm boundaries in order to feel safe. Discipline doesn't make a child feel un-loved.

That's a pretty strong statement considering you only saw this one outing. There is no way for you to know if the way she handled the situation was her normal way or if she was just having a bad day. True, it is possible that it was her normal way, but you can't just assume that.

Boundaries are good, yes, but you don't want to be so strict that you're child is deathly afraid of you either.

Svenska, I am not trying to piss you off or offend you, but I did have to reply to that statement. I can empathize with that mother because I have been there and I am sure that the other parents here have as well. Just because she didn't deal with that one episode the way you (who have no children) thinks that she should have does not mean that she is a bad mother, nor does it mean that she does not know that a child needs boundaries.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just because she didn't deal with that one episode the way you (who have no children) thinks that she should have

As in... "you don't have kids of your own, you don't know what you'r talkign about"..?

 

[Madame Manga]

The thing is, kids are not entirely the product of the way they’re raised. Sometimes I think a parent’s input is maybe 25% tops. Kids are born with their own personalities and their own desires, and sometimes all the good parenting in the world will not keep a kid from collapsing in tears or tantrums or from just being a monster of a child.

Yes. A thousand times, yes. Sometimes a parent just has to work with what she was given. You don't get to pick the personality of your child, and you don't get to mold it to any great extent. From the moment each of my children was out of the womb, or even before, I realized each had his inborn qualities, and that all I could be was a caretaker and guide. You can break a child if you really try, but you can't make him into something he is not.

My older son has ADHD. He used to run around screaming and bopping people, and sometimes he pulled his pants down in public. Concentrating on any task was impossible, and he covered me with bruises. Let's just say he didn't exactly learn that from example. It took me a while to educate myself out of the notion that "parenting" was the solution, and that this was MY fault. It wasn't. Now he's a little older, and he's on medication, and he's been going to therapy for a couple of years, enough to give him the tools to behave in most situations. We had strategies for dealing with the blowups, of course, which always included BACK IN THE CAR, NOW, and so on, but when his behavior offended others, all I could really say was that I was doing my best.

My younger son is autistic. Again, he's a lot better now than he used to be. I cannot tell you how many times I got The Look from people who apparently assumed that I was abusing this kid because I had to hold him, howling, with both arms and both legs to keep him from flinging himself on the ground or into traffic. I would give them my own Look, something on the order of "You are ignorant and intolerant, but I forgive you." I don't recall ever getting an offer of help from a stranger in the middle of one of these episodes.

 

[oggbashan]

As in... "you don't have kids of your own, you don't know what you'r talkign about"..?

No. As in you don't know a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

It is difficult to judge anyone on the basis of one encounter that irritated you. That might have been typical; it might have been completely out of character. Even if the woman is unthinking, uncaring, selfish - you should not let her behaviour upset you because it is bad for you.

Tolerance of other peoples' behaviour means less anger inside yourself.

Laid back Og

 

[Svenskaflicka]

On the other hand, Ogg, someone who's on the outside, can keep a clear head without letting maternal feelings take over.

 

[oggbashan]

Outside view is OK but you shouldn't let such behaviour upset you because it is bad for you.

I don't give a **** for the mother and the kids. I'm worried about Svenskaflicka getting wound up about something that doesn't matter.

Og

 

[English Lady]

I worked in childcare for a while when i left school. I have volunteered at a youth group and dealt with children of all ages for years and I have been around my younger sister and seen her grow up.


I hadn't got a clue what it was like to be a parent. My eyes were really opened when this little,precious, poo covered life was placed into my arms. Over the past two years my eyes have been opened and I now feel far more understanding to the poor woman struggling with a screaming,flailing child in a public place.

I know that parenting isn't something you can read a book on or take a class in and then voila! you're suddenly ready and prepared to be a "good" parent in every situation. I know that you have to just do what you can as you can and yes with hindsight I can see i have dealt with certain situations in a less than brilliant manner but that is parenting. Carrying on when you're tired and sore and sick and stressed because you don't have a choice because you are Mummy.


I am with Ogg. Live and let live!

 

[Guest]

As in... "you don't have kids of your own, you don't know what you'r talkign about"..?

We've all been single and childless at some point in our lives and all felt the way that you did when put in the situation with the misbehaving child. The point I was trying to make with the statement that you have no children, is that often, once you do have kids, your point of view shifts to a certain degree.

Because at that point, you HAVE been through many sleepless nights, endless nights of colic, tantrums, etc and can think of other reasons for the mother acting the way she did instead of just automatically thinking that she is a bad mother and doesn't set boundaries for her children.

It's not that you don't know what you are talking about because you have no children, it's just that your point of view is completely different.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

For what it's worth, as an elementary teacher

1. I'm most concerned that she left a BABY....ALONE...in a hallway. Even though it was full of women, many of whom are also mothers (and thereby in some way, reliable) it is completely innapropriate to leave an infant unattended.

2. Maybe she was just having a bad day, but I'm concerned about parents who "discipline" by saying softly "oh, don't do that," and allowing their child to scream without any sort of removal, sharp tone, or what have you. Yes, there are some meetings and things that can't be ignored, but Weight Watchers is hardly one of those. This would be a perfectly acceptable thing to say "knock it off of we leave now" and then leave when/if the child did not stop. Three/four year olds are in a stage of development where they are constantly setting limits. It is the parent's responsibility to set those limits and CONSISTENTLY reinforce them. A parent who is not consistent sends the wrong message to their petty tyrant.

3. In your place, when told that I had cut her place in line, I would've retorted with..."What, the one you were saving with the unnattended infant? That one? I just assumed you'd leave the baby throughout the meeting since you seem so concerned with making sure it's attended"...but then I tend to be VERY cranky with parents that I'm not paid to take shit from.

Having said that...no, there's NO such thing as the perfect child. Every child and every parent has a bad day. As a teacher there have been days when all I wanted was to put my head down on my desk and cry from the stress and irritation. So I do have sympathy for the mom...but only to a certain point.

 

[6353]

Hmmmm ... MOST entertaining thread here for male with no interest in reproducing RNA/DNA helix then, now, ever. Distinctly 'shallow' end of gene pool indeed. Nevertheless, I observe well I think, and watch mums & dads interact daily and gawd this is awfully tough business! To be absolutely 100% 24/7/360 (giving 5 days off when child is truly sick/comatose) for some 17 years straight (this, before they move back @25 when the 'relationship' hasn't quite worked out) is IMO, an unusually onerous task. I'd be in maximum security for having killed them early-on.

Svenska ... your perceptions of the situation are 'spot-on' and I'd be summarily annoyed (exactly) as you were with only one caveat; which is that there is 'po-white-trash' (or black or brown or yellow; bad parenting knows no ethnic boundary) to be raised simultaneously. Take great comfort/pride please that you're well beyond this and your innate intelligence will be passed on and your progeny are likely to be be quite successful tho' perhaps 'different'* from anything you envision. I'm firmly convinced with NO personal experience, that beyond weening ... nothing is certain.


"Perdita" your responses are truly wonderful. Thanks much for your left-brain.

"Oggbashan" ... ditto with other than Limbaugh intent here.

Enjoyed this ...
C.

* = even 'your' children Svenska may eventually succumb and use the word 'like' every 3rd word in any given sentence due to persuasive peer presure or lack of parental direction; thereby continuing to destroy the King's English foreverafter and render Roget & Webster moot players in the 2004 scene that is evolving English . Will you interact here or "let kidz b kidz" ?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Hmmmm ... MOST entertaining thread here for male with no interest in reproducing RNA/DNA helix then, now, ever. Distinctly 'shallow' end of gene pool indeed. Nevertheless, I observe well I think, and watch mums & dads interact daily and gawd this is awfully tough business! To be absolutely 100% 24/7/360 (giving 5 days off when child is truly sick/comatose) for some 17 years straight (this, before they move back @25 when the 'relationship' hasn't quite worked out) is IMO, an unusually onerous task. I'd be in maximum security for having killed them early-on.

No doubt child-rearing would be impossible but for the fact that nature causes certain definite biochemical changes in the parents' brains, just as sure as she creates changes in the mother's body. You become more tolerant, tougher, and filled with a kind of love and concern that's hard to describe.

The closest I can come is to say, if you've ever loved a pet, raise that feeling by a number of orders of magnitude, and you're maybe close to what most parents feel. If you've ever overindulged a dog or cat, then you've got an inkling of what parents have to fight against all the time with their kids.

Someone said that having a child is like wearing your heart outside your chest where everything can get to it, and that's not far from the truth.

---dr.M.

 

[Guest]

Very well said, Dr M.

Also, it's not such an impossible task, because it's oh so rewarding. A smile, a hug, an "I love you, Mummy and Daddy" means more than anyone could even begin to describe.

The pain begins at childbirth (OMG is it painful!) and carries on throughout childhood into adulthood and beyond, but that pain is numbed and goes largely un-noticed, because of the power of unconditional love, and all the joys that come with having children.

All that said, we all have our off days. BTW, Colly, thank you, but I can be extremely rude, when provoked. I've been known to spit more venom than a nest of vipers. It's got something to do with the Mum in me, I'm sure.

Lou

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Very well said, Dr M.

Also, it's not such an impossible task, because it's oh so rewarding. A smile, a hug, an "I love you, Mummy and Daddy" means more than anyone could even begin to describe.

The pain begins at childbirth (OMG is it painful!) and carries on throughout childhood into adulthood and beyond, but that pain is numbed and goes largely un-noticed, because of the power of unconditional love, and all the joys that come with having children.

All that said, we all have our off days. BTW, Colly, thank you, but I can be extremely rude, when provoked. I've been known to spit more venom than a nest of vipers. It's got something to do with the Mum in me, I'm sure.

Lou

Lou spitting venom? I find that harder to imagine than Shereads voting republican or Dita turning down tickets to the met. I suppose if pushed we all have the capability, but I suspect you have to be really pushed.

In the case sighted by Flicka it seems the woman in question was being rude without being pushed at all. I have known alot of moms and been out with them when the kids were grumpy, colicy or just tired. Most of them were far more apologetic than antagonistic to those around them when it happened. Not that the majority couldn't go from zero to bitch in .02 seconds if someone messed with thier kids mind you.

Of course I will be the first to admit my view point is skewed as I am not a mother and will not likely be one. I don't have a lot to draw on when it comes to sleepless nights and the other joys of child rearing. I can sympathize with anyone who has to deal with a tired or grumpy child, I know it's not easy from years of baby sitting. What I can't sympathise with is someone acting like a horse's patoot.

-Colly

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Guest]

Mack, it is a good kind of pain, but not so much for the romance of it; if you educate yourself (Lamaze) and have a good birth partner (not necessarily the dad) then you will know exactly what the pain (contractions) is and its reason. You work with it. It's not called labor for nothing. It will be the hardest work you've ever done.

I had a kidney stone once and fortunately it took less than 24 horus to pass. It's common for people to say that pain is worse than childbirth. True. But only because it is incessant. In labor you learn the stages of a contraction so that you know its peak and most importantly that it will end. Of course near the end there is less time in between but then you know that the real end is near. The other good thing is that once the baby is out, voila! no more pain (well almost, your uterus has to contract back to normal so you have crappy period-like pain, but you're still euphoric about the baby).

helpful hopefully, Perdita

 

[Guest]

A topic close to home for me . . .

Ditto to what perdita said about childbirth. It is a progressive process with a clear goal in sight. Ebb and flow of pain - and wonderful end result.

As to the mommy in the original post? She never should have left her child alone. What was she thinking? She wasn't leaving her coat on a chair to save a seat. I can't stand it when people do that in line at the grocery store, leaving a toddler sitting in a cart while they run to grab just one item. They assume whoever else is in line will watch to make sure their child doesn't topple out and become seriously injured.

Same goes for leaving a 4 year old child alone in a car. The abduction possibility is frightening, not to mention a bored child could play with the mechanics or even get out of the car and wander around the street. In the USA parents could lose their children because of such irresponsible parenting.

Ignorant idiots.

I don't know the situation with the older child, but tired, hungry and bored children tend to fuss and whine. About anything. (We don't do whining at our house - my husband and I say,"I can't understand what you're saying." And we don't respond to them until they speak normally. They've learned this quite well and it isn't a big deal.) But fussing? That's normal kid stuff.

And we are so hard on parents in society. We all are, even those of us with problem kids. We see a child fussing in the store and we give the parents The Look, as dr. M. so eloquently described. (Even if it is right after after mom got off work, she just picked up two kids from school or daycare, she is trying to get some groceries in a hurry and everyone is tired and frustrated.)

My children are both ADHD.

Joy.

This means, of course, that my husband and I are loaded with it, as it is genetic, but I digress. (Often.)

After we took our kids to see wonderful child psychiatrists at what used to be Menninger's Hospital here in Kansas, we learned many ways to help them deal with their special gifts.

And they have many. Both are gifted, high achievers, but both do not deal well with a change in their routine, loud noises and huge crowds bother them because they can't focus, they are both easily and intensely frustrated if they can't master a skill (even a difficult concept) they are both fiercely competitive which causes internal stress, etc. etc. etc.

We have to be strong advocates for our children in public school. Teachers have been understanding and appreciative as we explain the situation.

I had to deal with my parents wondering what was wrong with our daughter as a baby because she would get so upset at a family gathering. Now we know it was because all of the noise, the new people, the change in our normal routine. And our son is poster boy for ADHD - the true epitome of the hyperactive child. At times he is really unable to control his frenetic activity. On at least one occasion he has run circles around grandma and grampa's house and broken something by knocking it over. (Nothing big - a candle holder, a little figurine - nothing of any emotional worth).

That is actually typical 2-year-old behavior, of course, yet some family members tend to not understand the situation and blow things our of proportion.

Meds have helped, and we see a terrific child psych about every other month to learn ways to help them re-think so we don't always have to rely on meds.

But I have to deal with my mother saying only a few months ago, "Are you SURE they need that medication? They seem just fine now." Of course they seem fine. BECAUSE of the medication.

And my younger sister and I are in a huge fight right now because she said the one thing to me last summer that a non-parent should never say. (And I must confess, I said it before I had children.) She said, "Well, MY kids will never . . . "

Granted, it was in the middle of a stressful situation, but she was being very ungracious about our parenting skills and being very unfair to our children.

I'm just waiting until she is a mommy. We will never say to her what she said to us, but my husband and I will giggle behind our hands as her children will wind up doing the same things all children do.

Because there are no sweeter words than, "I told you so."

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[Guest]

Mack, there are plenty of jokes and horror stories that scare women to death, and those about passing a football or watermelon through a vagina are the worst. When you look at a newborn baby you can't imagine how it came out of that 'small' orifice but know that an infant is mostly flesh, its bones are soft and not fully formed for a couple years, so it doesn't pass through looking the way it does in your arms. Mother Nature is a genius.

No matter your preparation you will of course be scared the first time, it's a great unknown, but you will do what has to be done (the first hard rule of parenting).

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

2. Yes, there are some meetings and things that can't be ignored, but Weight Watchers is hardly one of those. This would be a perfectly acceptable thing to say "knock it off of we leave now" and then leave when/if the child did not stop.

Maybe you'd like to rethink this one D-N? What you are actually saying is that, assuming the child doesn't want to be there at all, "Stop protesting at this thing you don't want to do or we won't do it."

Gauche

 

[McKenna]

.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Maybe you'd like to rethink this one D-N? What you are actually saying is that, assuming the child doesn't want to be there at all, "Stop protesting at this thing you don't want to do or we won't do it."

Gauche

Not at all...what I was saying is that when you are teaching a small child what proper in-public behavoir should be, when they start acting up you remove them from that situation.

My mom was a HUGE advocate of "knock it off or we go sit in the car" at that age. And OF COURSE I got all cranky and whiny on her at times (we're talking 3/4 years old here) and it didn't matter to her at all...even the line at the grocery store. She would immediately remove me from the situation, take me out to the car, and put me in my car seat and sit in the front ignoring me for a good 5 minutes before asking me if I could go back inside and behave. There were also further consequences/rewards set up...I knew that if I was good we could go to the toy store and look around (not get something...just look and OCCASIONALLY I might be rewarded with a toy) and if I didn't...well, no toy store for me that week...which at 4 is a HUGE deal.

However, it is not just about removing them from the situation that they may not want to be a part of. There also have to be consequences like a time out and a discussion of behavoir...yes you can do this with three year olds, as long as you keep it very short and use language they understand.

What I'm talking about is a larger discipline strategy of rewarding good behavoir and disciplining bad or innapropriate behavoir. When I'm teaching or babysitting, out of the blue I'll tell the child or student "Thank you for X (behaving so well, being paitient while I paid my credit card bill)...I'm really proud of you (or you're being such a good girl or boy...depeding on the age" or in the same situation when the child is acting inappropriately, I'll say something like "You know what, when you tap on the glass, you're trying to get the bunny's attention, but they see this huge giant making scary noises and they want to hide...not come meet you." Disciplining doesn't always mean screaming NO or STOP THAT at a child (sometimes it can, especially if the child is about to do something dangerous, like lift the lid off a steamer)...keep in mind, they don't know why you're telling them "no" or why they can't just do whatever in public. As for whining...I'll flat out tell them that I'm going to ignore them until they can speak without whining, and proceed to doing it.

It's about actually following through on what you say you're going to do. Don't make an empty threat...you'll prove your a pushover. It can suck, and there's a lot of truth in "it's gonna hurt me more than you"...but there it is.

My point was that there are times when you can't leave...a doctor's appointment, tax preparation on april 15th, what have you. But the reality is that Weight Watchers is something that you can remove your child from...Maybe it was a mommy friendly event...but if your child isn't ready for it then you remove him or her from it. And if you can afford weight watchers, you can sure as hell afford a babysitter for that hour or two (I know exactly how much it costs...so don't tell me you can't).

Like I said...I don't know this mom...and maybe her sitter cancelled last minute or something.

I'm just throwing my 2 cents in, because what I know for certain is this...Parents who don't discipline their kids are my worst nightmare. I have a child who was beating on the other children...to the point where he was suspended three times in one month...and the mother just said "oh"...and when meeting with her, the child, and the principal, we say first hand that she couldn't even get him to take off his mittens--absolutely no control. Keep in mind...it's a hell of a lot easier to establish authority when they're three. If you wait until they're 8 or 10...you'll NEVER have control over them.

And a last thought...kids get harder, not easier as they get older. Give me a whiny 3 year old over a 12 year old getting slammed by his or her hormones for the first time.

 

[Guest]

The only irresponsible mother I ever wanted to thrash in public was the one who let her daughter come to daycare knowing she had lice. It wasn't disocovered until everyone had been exposed; I had very long thick hair then. What a nightmare for us all.

Perdita (still seething)

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: A topic close to home for me . . .

Because there are no sweeter words than, "I told you so."

So true. Bittersweet, I'd say, but yes.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: A topic close to home for me . . .

So true. Bittersweet, I'd say, but yes.

Yes, very bittersweet.

My husband and I are trying to pretend that we never had that "discussion" with my sister. We play nice for family. It's the only way I can cope with everything else that is happening.

Small comfort, but we just know in our little hearts that eventually we'll be proven correct.

*sigh*

(and THEN I'll kick her ass!)