Phraseology Tidbits

[elfin_odalisque]

The Joneses of "keeping up with the Joneses" fame were real. They lived in the Long Island neighborhood of cartoonist Arthur Mamand, who used experiences with them in his early twentieth-century cartoons.

I don't understand. Has sr got some undisclosed relationship with this unresearched author?

Try this,

An alternative explanation is that the Joneses of the saying refer to the wealthy family of Edith Wharton's father, the Jones. The Jones were a prominent New York family with substantial interests in Chemical Bank as a result of marrying the daughters of the bank's founder, John Mason. The Jones and other rich New Yorkers began to build country villas in the Hudson Valley around Rhinecliff and Rhinebeck, which had belonged to the Livingstons, another prominent New York family to which the Jones were related. The houses became grander and grander. In 1853 Elizabeth Schermerhorn Jones built a 24 room gothic villa called Wyndclyffe described by Henry Winthrop Sargent in 1859 as being very fine in the style of a Scottish castle, but by Edith Wharton, Elizabeth's niece, as a gloomy monstrosity.

Reputedly the villa spurred more building, including a house by William B. Astor (married to a Jones cousin), a phenomenon described as "keeping up with the Joneses". The phrase is also associated with another of Edith Wharton's aunts, Mary Mason Jones, who built a large mansion at Fifth Avenue and 57th Street, then undeveloped. Wharton portrays her affectionately in The Age of Innocence as Mrs Manson Mingott, "calmly waiting for fashion to flow north".

A slightly different version is that the phrase refers to the grand lifestyle of the Joneses who by the mid-century were numerous and wealthy, thanks to the Chemical Bank and Mason connection. It was their relation Mrs William Backhouse Astor, Jr who began the "patriarchs balls", the origin of the Four Hundred, the list of the society elite who were invited. By then the Joneses were being eclipsed by the massive wealth of the Astors, Vanderbilts and others but the four hundred list published in 1892 contained many of the Jones and their relations - old money still mattered.

I admit this is wikipedia, and not personal knowledge, but really how does sr expect us to swallow his inaccurate twaddle.

sr, what you are not doing is quoting an authority - just a snake oil salesman.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

sr, just to bring you back to your sphere of excellence - should we write 'keeping up with the 'joneses' or keeping up with the "jones' "?

 

[sr71plt]

Holier than thou

Although I'm sure the Elfin is going to say that the small ball-shaped pastry made in the same manner as a doughnut and called doughnut holes are always made out of the dough from the center of a doughnut, Kipfer suggests that confections called doughnut holes existed in the seventeenth century and were made from separate "nuts" of dough.

These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[PennLady]

sr, just to bring you back to your sphere of excellence - should we write 'keeping up with the 'joneses' or keeping up with the "jones' "?

When the names is "Jones," the plural is "Joneses." "Jones" with s' is possessive.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

When the names is "Jones," the plural is "Joneses." "Jones" with s' is possessive.

I accept but would throw in the pot that "keeping up with the Joneses'" requires an object. Keeping up with what? Style, possession. It needs an apostrophe to identify what is being kept up with.

 

[sr71plt]

"Keeping up with the Joneses" doesn't require an object any more than "keeping up with Mary" or "Keeping up with the two Marys" would.

 

[PennLady]

I accept but would throw in the pot that "keeping up with the Joneses'" requires an object. Keeping up with what? Style, possession. It needs an apostrophe to identify what is being kept up with.

No it doesn't unless you want it to. You could say "Keeping up with the Jones' life style," but you don't have to.

As SR says, you can say "keeping up with Mary" and no one expects Mary to be a possessive adjective. Besides, you're saying keeping up with THE Joneses -- so it's clear you're talking about matching up somehow with a group of people.

 

[sr71plt]

When persistence gets silly

The term "wild goose chase" was first attested in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliett (1590s), in which it apparently tagged an earlier, but unrecorded, literal-use reference to a kind of follow-the-leader steeplechase.


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

It's all wet

The term "raining cats and dogs" is said to have first appeared in a 1738 work, A Complete Collection of Polite and Ingenious Conversation, by Jonathan Swift. In "raining cats and dogs," cats symbolize rain storms, and dogs symbolize wind storms.

In a more fun Literotica allusion to rainy weather, in the Chinese lexicon, "clouds and rain" is an allusion to the sex act.


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

More than a slapstick movie

The term "duck soup" traces back to a Tad Dorgan cartoon in 1902, in which a man easily juggled a set of miscellaneous items, and came to refer to an action that was easy or presented no challenge, a cinch to complete.


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

Like some sexual encounters we write about here

The term “bric-a-brac,” dating to 1840, is from an obsolete French phrase à bric et à brac, meaning “at random, any old way.”


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[colddiesel]

The term “bric-a-brac,” dating to 1840, is from an obsolete French phrase à bric et à brac, meaning “at random, any old way.”


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

I thought the modern meaning of bric-a-brac was a collection of curiosities, and possibly unrelated antiquarian objects, usually of insignificant value, not unlike thee 'n' me I suppose.

 

[sr71plt]

On giving up

The phrase "cry uncle" is considered to be an Americanism, but its origins go all the way back to the Roman Empire. Roman children, when beset by a bully, had to cry out Patrue mi Patruissimo, or "Uncle, my best Uncle," to submit.

These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

Kosher dating?

"Speed dating," a type of matchmaking service where participants meet for seven or eight minutes each before moving on to another participant, is said to have started in the U.S. Jewish community in 2000.

These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

The term "raining cats and dogs" is said to have first appeared in a 1738 work, A Complete Collection of Polite and Ingenious Conversation, by Jonathan Swift. In "raining cats and dogs," cats symbolize rain storms, and dogs symbolize wind storms.
These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

There seem to be four or five possible origins of the phrase without conclusive evidence of origin. Yet again showing Kipfer's poor research or desire for cheap sensationalism:

There is some evidence that suggests a direct link between heavy rain that seems to precipitate cats and dogs. It comes from a poem by Jonathan Swift, A Description of a City Shower:

Sweeping from butchers’ stalls, dung, guts, and blood;
Drown’d puppies, stinking sprats, all drench’d in mud,
Dead cats, and turnip-tops, come tumbling down the flood.

As Swift penned these lines in 1710, nearly 30 years before he wrote the book in which raining cats and dogs appears for the first time, it just might suggest that he was quoting an expression he himself had created.

As you said, research should be substantiated.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I thought the modern meaning of bric-a-brac was a collection of curiosities, and possibly unrelated antiquarian objects, usually of insignificant value, not unlike thee 'n' me I suppose.

Again cold, sr hashes unsubstantiated crap as fact. Yes,á bricq et á bracq meant 'any old way'. Sadly it went out of use, together with similar forms, eg 'de bricq et de bracq' centuries before the french invented 'bric-á-brac', registered by the Academie Française in !825 for traders who bought old iron. In 1834 it was established in French as meaning 'a commerce in old and random objects'. We anglo-saxons just borrowed it.

A source? Try the Dictionnaire Historique de la langue Française - an invaluable source when writing french historic romance.

 

[PennLady]

Again cold, sr hashes unsubstantiated crap as fact. Yes,á bricq et á bracq meant 'any old way'. Sadly it went out of use, together with similar forms, eg 'de bricq et de bracq' centuries before the french invented 'bric-á-brac', registered by the Academie Française in !825 for traders who bought old iron. In 1834 it was established in French as meaning 'a commerce in old and random objects'. We anglo-saxons just borrowed it.

A source? Try the Dictionnaire Historique de la langue Française - an invaluable source when writing french historic romance.

Good grief, what is wrong here? SR is not presenting this stuff as gospel truth (an interesting term in itself). He's putting it out there and citing his source. It doesn't mean he agrees. He is basically making conversation. Can't you just say, I found a different source, and it says X? Without attacking?

And if "a bric et a brac" meant "any old way," then I can certainly see how it would relate to the modern usage of it as any collection of knick-knacks, trinkets, etc., whether the items are related or not.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Good grief, what is wrong here? SR is not presenting this stuff as gospel truth (an interesting term in itself). He's putting it out there and citing his source. It doesn't mean he agrees. He is basically making conversation. Can't you just say, I found a different source, and it says X? Without attacking?

And if "a bric et a brac" meant "any old way," then I can certainly see how it would relate to the modern usage of it as any collection of knick-knacks, trinkets, etc., whether the items are related or not.

Love the allusion to 'gospel truth'.

My problem is that sr has for a long while, quite correctly, held himself out as as a guru of grammar,editing and the arcane site rules. For that he is a treasure.

On this thread he puts out stuff that is, at best, questionable and uses a magician's wand to pretend this unsupported snippets are 'gospel' by quoting an unreliable source. He is risking his reputation as the book he is quoting from from is a quick and underresearched way a writer wants to make a buck. He could have simply googled the phrases to see how out of whack this Kipler is.

Again, on bric-á-brac, he conflates an obsolete expression with a new usage that appeared two centuries later. The French had the neologism and we borrowed it.

That's why these airport tease books do more to hinder knowledge than advance it. Why didn't sr do a modicum of veryfying before posting this woman's nonsense? Either he is gullible, which I don't believe, or he is being paid to promote this poor edition. You can take the kindly view but I think you're being hoodwinked. sr's not naive.

 

[Ldy_Sea]

Or maybe s is just posting this information which is interesting, for fun and y'all are taking too seriously. He naver clamied that this book was completely factual just that he found it interesting.

Unless YOU are the creator of one of these phrases, there is no way to know for certain when and how they came into being. This is just one possible explanation.

Stop taking this so seriously, it is meant to be fun not scholarly like wikipedia opposed to encyclopedia brittanica. If it pisses you off so much that there are other explanations then stop reading this thread. I for one enjoy it, even though I have seen other possible entomolgies of several of these expressions, I have no idea which one (or even if one) is correct. Some may have been started in different places at the same time so they have different beginings, both equally true.

Just my .02¢

 

[PennLady]

On this thread he puts out stuff that is, at best, questionable and uses a magician's wand to pretend this unsupported snippets are 'gospel' by quoting an unreliable source. He is risking his reputation as the book he is quoting from from is a quick and underresearched way a writer wants to make a buck. He could have simply googled the phrases to see how out of whack this Kipler is.

I don't think he's saying that Kipfer is right, he just happened to have this book and is tossing the stuff out there to see what's of interest. He has said various times that he welcomes other info, and I don't think I've seen him argue against anything else with a different source.

Again, on bric-á-brac, he conflates an obsolete expression with a new usage that appeared two centuries later. The French had the neologism and we borrowed it.

I don't think so.

That's why these airport tease books do more to hinder knowledge than advance it. Why didn't sr do a modicum of veryfying before posting this woman's nonsense? Either he is gullible, which I don't believe, or he is being paid to promote this poor edition. You can take the kindly view but I think you're being hoodwinked. sr's not naive.

Hoodwinked? Gee, thanks. Maybe I can think for myself, and just don't see the point in arguing every single thing posted. Why should he have to verify anything? He's not saying that this is the final word on anything.

Or maybe s is just posting this information which is interesting, for fun and y'all are taking too seriously. He naver clamied that this book was completely factual just that he found it interesting.

'zactly. thanks.

 

[_Lynn_]

Love the allusion to 'gospel truth'.

My problem is that sr has for a long while, quite correctly, held himself out as as a guru of grammar,editing and the arcane site rules. For that he is a treasure.

On this thread he puts out stuff that is, at best, questionable and uses a magician's wand to pretend this unsupported snippets are 'gospel' by quoting an unreliable source. He is risking his reputation as the book he is quoting from from is a quick and underresearched way a writer wants to make a buck. He could have simply googled the phrases to see how out of whack this Kipler is.

Again, on bric-á-brac, he conflates an obsolete expression with a new usage that appeared two centuries later. The French had the neologism and we borrowed it.

That's why these airport tease books do more to hinder knowledge than advance it. Why didn't sr do a modicum of veryfying before posting this woman's nonsense? Either he is gullible, which I don't believe, or he is being paid to promote this poor edition. You can take the kindly view but I think you're being hoodwinked. sr's not naive.

Oh, boy. Havin' a bad day, elf?




BTW, I agree with PL and SeaUrchin.

 

[sr71plt]

Thank a grandfather (but only if you are white)

The term "grandfather clause" dates back to southern state legislation in the United States in 1900 that put vote-limiting clauses in law (like having to own property)--laws really intended to limited the sufferage of blacks. The grandfather clauses exempted anyone whose grandfather had voted before the American Civil War from these provisions (again, singling out many blacks as subject to the new laws).

These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

Giant leap from here to there

I can't even begin to understand how the term "Holy Mary" got bastardized (any pun intended) to "Holy Mackerel" in the English-language lexicon.

(The Internet suggests the connection may be either that Catholics eat fish on Friday or that mackerel once was a popular purchase on Sunday.)

These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[sr71plt]

Bark is older than his bite

The use of the term "bow-wow" to give voice to a dog's (or anyone else's) bark was recorded as in use as early as 1576.


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Oh, boy. Havin' a bad day, elf?
BTW, I agree with PL and SeaUrchin.

No, Lynn, just a tilt of the lance against hypocrisy.

I have been hounded from pillar to post by this arrogant egotist for giving my 2 cents to newbies. He huffs and puffs that unless you are descending fromMount Olympus like him then you are not worthy to comment. He is wrong and is as much at fault as scouries for destroying the empathy of Stories Feedback.

I accept his status as grammarian and editor, but to stoop to post extracts from a widely disparaged book and expect us to take it as gospel is what the law calls, 'passing off'. He is contemptous in not replying to fair criticism.

Sea Urchin is wrong. A load of research has gone into the history of these expressions and Kipfer has produced an airport paperback book of rubbish that sr wants to quote - goodness knows why.

Let him tell us the real origin of 'OK' - with references - and I will reconsider my opinion.

A