Proposed UK Legislation a threat to BDSM?

[shy slave]

I saw it more as the issue being you didn't actually have to act on anything to still be sent to prison. These guys had never even met each other and claimed it was just fantasy talk. Given the growth of sexual role play online, perhaps it was, maybe it wasn't. The points that concerned me was the guy went to the unsuspecting police with the information he said he had gathered by playing along with them to get it, and he gets a bigger sentence....and if the police had sent him back to keep going with the charade to a point where they actually went out to commit the offence while police staked out the area to catch before they actually did any harm, thus proving it was more than fantasy, then I could understand the guilty verdict and sentencing. The way it is it is no more than words on a screen from 3 men, 2 of whom said it was fantasy, 1 who said he went out as a vigilante to catch online paedophiles and handed the information over to police so they could act on it and then ends up in prison himself. Strangely enough, he seems to have received more punishment for trying to catch paedophiles than those who might actually be one. So does this mean that rape fantasy role play is now open to the same outcome, along with any talk of BDSM activites not sanctioned by the government?

Catalina

The sentences may have come about because they swapped incest porn and because they had already picked out which two girls they planned to rape.

The man who informed the police may have got cold feet and decided to use a cover story of 'catching paedophiles' in order to get out of the situation.

In the UK taking the law into your own hands is seen in a dim light, therefore the police would have been suspicious as to why he decided to try catch paedophiles.

Additional Information
The Soham case, which is mentioned in the report changed legislation in terms of protection of vulnerable people.
Ian Huntley was the boyfriend of a primary school helper and a caretaker of the same school. When she was away for the weekend, he encouraged two 10 year old girls into his house and then murdered them. He dumped their bodies a few miles away near an American air base. During the search for the bodies and the killer he was seen on television being interviewed by reporters about how terrible the situation was.
As a result of this case a new government body was set up to screen anyone who wants to work with vulnerable children or adults.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3312551.stm

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I saw it more as the issue being you didn't actually have to act on anything to still be sent to prison. These guys had never even met each other and claimed it was just fantasy talk. Given the growth of sexual role play online, perhaps it was, maybe it wasn't. The points that concerned me was the guy went to the unsuspecting police with the information he said he had gathered by playing along with them to get it, and he gets a bigger sentence....and if the police had sent him back to keep going with the charade to a point where they actually went out to commit the offence while police staked out the area to catch before they actually did any harm, thus proving it was more than fantasy, then I could understand the guilty verdict and sentencing. The way it is it is no more than words on a screen from 3 men, 2 of whom said it was fantasy, 1 who said he went out as a vigilante to catch online paedophiles and handed the information over to police so they could act on it and then ends up in prison himself. Strangely enough, he seems to have received more punishment for trying to catch paedophiles than those who might actually be one. So does this mean that rape fantasy role play is now open to the same outcome, along with any talk of BDSM activites not sanctioned by the government?

Catalina

a BIG difference between BDSM, roleplay, fantasy, online and this story is that these were CHILDREN not consenting adults. and each of these guys were caught with child pornography. if these had my daughters that these guys were planning to rape, i would be very grateful that someone turned them in. i do think the third guy, the one who turned them in should have gotten some type leinency in the whole thing, since if he hadn't come to the police they wouldn't known anything about it until it was too late. but the fact in that remains too that they found child porn in his home as well..so was he really a vigilante, or was he a part of it and then changed his mind? either way he should have been granted some type of leiniency and not given a heftier charge than the other two. but my point to this post is we are discussing two different things.

 

[catalina_francisco]

a BIG difference between BDSM, roleplay, fantasy, online and this story is that these were CHILDREN not consenting adults. and each of these guys were caught with child pornography. if these had my daughters that these guys were planning to rape, i would be very grateful that someone turned them in. i do think the third guy, the one who turned them in should have gotten some type leinency in the whole thing, since if he hadn't come to the police they wouldn't known anything about it until it was too late. but the fact in that remains too that they found child porn in his home as well..so was he really a vigilante, or was he a part of it and then changed his mind? either way he should have been granted some type of leiniency and not given a heftier charge than the other two. but my point to this post is we are discussing two different things.

I can appreciate the fact of consent, but I also see it only a small step away from charging someone who has BDSM porn in their home or on their computer AND is roleplaying it online if the law says certain acts within BDSM (which both the US and UK do) are not legal with or without consent. I suspect these guys were doing more than just roleplaying as they claimed, but there is still reasonable doubt in my mind unless they had actually been caught together and on their way to carry out the planned deed. I do not think it should have gone as far as them being allowed to snatch the girls, but it could have been taken to the point where they met each other in RL and were on their way to where they expected the girls would be, in keeping with the online evidence of the plans.

I just get nervous of how far things are going when you no longer even have to meet an accomplice, or do anything illegal to be sent to prison. If they had been sent to prison for the child porn I would not have a problem, but that seems to have only come into it as evidence they had paedophilia tendencies or fantasies, not that they had acted on them. What about people who join chat rooms to role play rape....and may even subscribe to porn sites which depict glossy pics of staged rape scenes or read novels with rape in them....will they be able to be charged with conspiracy to rape if they roleplay or say they have fantasised about raping a particular person, even if they have never acted on it? That is why it concerns me because people in general talk about doing a lot more things than they actually get the nerve or drive to do...now it seems this opens the gates to be jailed for your thoughts alone as long as someone sees them as being deviant.

Catalina

 

[MasterPhoenix]

That story does give Me the willies as it seems like "Thought crime" since there were (thankfully) no actions carried out.

The world is better off with those guys behind bars, but I do wonder about where the line is when it comes to thoughts/Intent deed. Are we getting close to the whole Big Brother phenomenon where you can get 'fixed' for simply having illegal thoughts?

Granted, they had more than just thoughts they were well into the planning stage....

It is a slippery slope.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The sentences may have come about because they swapped incest porn and because they had already picked out which two girls they planned to rape.

The man who informed the police may have got cold feet and decided to use a cover story of 'catching paedophiles' in order to get out of the situation.

In the UK taking the law into your own hands is seen in a dim light, therefore the police would have been suspicious as to why he decided to try catch paedophiles.

Additional Information
The Soham case, which is mentioned in the report changed legislation in terms of protection of vulnerable people.
Ian Huntley was the boyfriend of a primary school helper and a caretaker of the same school. When she was away for the weekend, he encouraged two 10 year old girls into his house and then murdered them. He dumped their bodies a few miles away near an American air base. During the search for the bodies and the killer he was seen on television being interviewed by reporters about how terrible the situation was.
As a result of this case a new government body was set up to screen anyone who wants to work with vulnerable children or adults.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3312551.stm

Yes, I remember that case, but it still concerns me that the thing they actually were sent to prison for was not having child porn, but that they conspired to rape which it seems the evidence is online chat and the fact they had porn which supported it was an interest of theirs. I do tend to think they could have been a risk as in actually carrying through with their plans, but I also have reasonable doubt as to whether they actually would have. I see a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it when it means sending someone to prison. We all know from here alone that all that is spoken of, fantasised about, and roleplayed in chat rooms, especially between complete strangers, only has a small percentage of ever becoming a reality...so now does this signal we are all open to being sentenced for crimes based on thoughts alone?

If the police had set it up to catch them doing something more substantial than talking online, I would have felt better, but it seems it is based solely on their chat and the expectation they would make it a reality. How many people do we know who big talk themselves but never take the next step to reality? How many of the guys here who happily participate in rape fantasy role play, talk about having rape fantases, even might subscribe to rape porn etc., do we actually think would rape someone against their consent? Thinking should not be a crime...if it is we should all be in prison.

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I can appreciate the fact of consent, but I also see it only a small step away from charging someone who has BDSM porn in their home or on their computer AND is roleplaying it online if the law says certain acts within BDSM (which both the US and UK do) are not legal with or without consent. I suspect these guys were doing more than just roleplaying as they claimed, but there is still reasonable doubt in my mind unless they had actually been caught together and on their way to carry out the planned deed. I do not think it should have gone as far as them being allowed to snatch the girls, but it could have been taken to the point where they met each other in RL and were on their way to where they expected the girls would be, in keeping with the online evidence of the plans.

I just get nervous of how far things are going when you no longer even have to meet an accomplice, or do anything illegal to be sent to prison. If they had been sent to prison for the child porn I would not have a problem, but that seems to have only come into it as evidence they had paedophilia tendencies or fantasies, not that they had acted on them. What about people who join chat rooms to role play rape....and may even subscribe to porn sites which depict glossy pics of staged rape scenes or read novels with rape in them....will they be able to be charged with conspiracy to rape if they roleplay or say they have fantasised about raping a particular person, even if they have never acted on it? That is why it concerns me because people in general talk about doing a lot more things than they actually get the nerve or drive to do...now it seems this opens the gates to be jailed for your thoughts alone as long as someone sees them as being deviant.

Catalina

i do see and agree with what you're saying, but right now child molesting seems to be running rampant so they are catching anyone who even has these thoughts/fantasies. i just see it alot different when it's dealing with children and i'm glad these sickos were caught in time, though i do see your scenario about letting them START to play it out instead of catching them while they are still just talking about it. that makes sense to me, and if the police are wise to what's going on they could stop the children involved from being where the predators think those children are going to be. but at that point they STILL have not acted it out as they didn't get to snatch the kids so then they could say they were just out for a stroll in the woods know what i mean? or am i completely not making any sense?

 

[MasterPhoenix]

It reminds Me in a way of the show Dateline: To Catch a Predator. They have these decoys pretend to be kids and entice people into meeting the 'children'. Once they arrive they are shown on TV, and arrested once they leave the house.

The thing is while they are purporting to catch all these predators, I wonder how encouraging the 'decoys' are in INVITING these people over....

It seems like entrapment to Me...

If you are not familiar with the show click here

 

[catalina_francisco]

That story does give Me the willies as it seems like "Thought crime" since there were (thankfully) no actions carried out.

The world is better off with those guys behind bars, but I do wonder about where the line is when it comes to thoughts/Intent deed. Are we getting close to the whole Big Brother phenomenon where you can get 'fixed' for simply having illegal thoughts?

Granted, they had more than just thoughts they were well into the planning stage....

It is a slippery slope.

That's my point...it opens up a whole minefield. Even planning doesn't mean someone will do something. I know I have made quite elaborate plans in my time, and not even for something illegal, only to fizzle out once all the planning was done...sometimes the thrill is in dreaming and planning, not actually doing. I would have also felt stronger about believing they would do it if they had actually met in person...how many times do we say the person on the other side of our screen might be a 15 yo school kid bored and looking to stir the pot for fun...what if they also felt safe in laying plans etc., believing the others were not who they said, or would not carry through for all their talk...wouldn't it seem more normal if you were going to do something like that, that you would want to meet your accomplices first before planning to make sure you could trust them, they were real, they really were more than talk? It just seems a lot of assumptions have been made and huge leaps taken from fantasy to definite reality. Wouldn't it have made more sense to charge and sentence them on the child porn, with the online chat as back up, not the other way around? At least we know they did actually possess the porn, we don't know they actually would have gone through with their fantasies and plans.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

i do see and agree with what you're saying, but right now child molesting seems to be running rampant so they are catching anyone who even has these thoughts/fantasies. i just see it alot different when it's dealing with children and i'm glad these sickos were caught in time, though i do see your scenario about letting them START to play it out instead of catching them while they are still just talking about it. that makes sense to me, and if the police are wise to what's going on they could stop the children involved from being where the predators think those children are going to be. but at that point they STILL have not acted it out as they didn't get to snatch the kids so then they could say they were just out for a stroll in the woods know what i mean? or am i completely not making any sense?

I know what you mean, but I don't think they could really expect to get away with that line if they actually were folowing their plan and were caught in the place where they expected the children to be...it would all be written in their plans that they would be at x at y time and then proceed with the kidnap and rape. It is unlikely if they went as far as turning up in the right place at the right time they cols convince anyone they were just walking. As to child molesting running rampant, I actually think it is probably just as prevalent as it ever was, if we are lucky maybe less, but the difference being it is now talked about, people are caught, children are educated about the risks and made aware they have protection available, authorities are actually looking to catch pedophiles, and it is no longer the dirty secret it once was. What is to stop them now prosecuting people who are in a Daddy relationship, do age play, have a wardrobe full of appropriate clothing for role playing it, have incest fantasies etc., and claiming they are a risk to the community and should be jailed for being a risk?

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I know what you mean, but I don't think they could really expect to get away with that line if they actually were folowing their plan and were caught in the place where they expected the children to be...it would all be written in their plans that they would be at x at y time and then proceed with the kidnap and rape. It is unlikely if they went as far as turning up in the right place at the right time they cols convince anyone they were just walking. As to child molesting running rampant, I actually think it is probably just as prevalent as it ever was, if we are lucky maybe less, but the difference being it is now talked about, people are caught, children are educated about the risks and made aware they have protection available, authorities are actually looking to catch pedophiles, and it is no longer the dirty secret it once was. What is to stop them now prosecuting people who are in a Daddy relationship, do age play, have a wardrobe full of appropriate clothing for role playing it, have incest fantasies etc., and claiming they are a risk to the community and should be jailed for being a risk?

Catalina

you'll get no argument from me on the fact that child molesting is just as is always has been only it now talked about more. i think growing up almost everyone had that 'crazy uncle joe' who all the kids just stayed away from or avoided being along with him because he was a 'pervert' but it was a family secret and no one said anything about it because he was 'family' so yea i see what you're saying there and what i meant by runnin rampant was exactly that, not that it's happening now more days than it did in the past.

and again, i agree with you that they should have investigated more and set up some sort of sting to 'catch them in the act' instead of making assumptions that they would actually carry through simply because they typed it out in a chat room or in IM's. but i also see the other side and kind of why they jumped when they did.and they do have the hard evidence of the child porn to convict on that alone, BUT sadly child pornography is only a D Felony..here in the states anyway, which is and CAN be equivalent to a misdemeanor if the judge so chooses. i know this because my ex i told you about before who molested my daughter, was caught with child porn as well, and it is a D felony charge, and the judge just to today at the plea agreement hearing told him he was knocking it down to a Misdemeanor charge of possessing child pornography. so if they had just used that to sentence them the sentences probably would have been just a year behind bars, they went for the bigger/more serious charge.

 

[shy slave]

I can appreciate the fact of consent, but I also see it only a small step away from charging someone who has BDSM porn in their home or on their computer AND is roleplaying it online if the law says certain acts within BDSM (which both the US and UK do) are not legal with or without consent. I suspect these guys were doing more than just roleplaying as they claimed, but there is still reasonable doubt in my mind unless they had actually been caught together and on their way to carry out the planned deed. I do not think it should have gone as far as them being allowed to snatch the girls, but it could have been taken to the point where they met each other in RL and were on their way to where they expected the girls would be, in keeping with the online evidence of the plans.

I just get nervous of how far things are going when you no longer even have to meet an accomplice, or do anything illegal to be sent to prison. If they had been sent to prison for the child porn I would not have a problem, but that seems to have only come into it as evidence they had paedophilia tendencies or fantasies, not that they had acted on them. What about people who join chat rooms to role play rape....and may even subscribe to porn sites which depict glossy pics of staged rape scenes or read novels with rape in them....will they be able to be charged with conspiracy to rape if they roleplay or say they have fantasised about raping a particular person, even if they have never acted on it? That is why it concerns me because people in general talk about doing a lot more things than they actually get the nerve or drive to do...now it seems this opens the gates to be jailed for your thoughts alone as long as someone sees them as being deviant.

Catalina

The law in the UK is very clear when it comes to any form of BDSM.

You cannot consent to be harmed and therefore all BDSM acts which involve physical pain are illegal.
Since the Soham case and then the Spanner case (which was BDSM) there has been white government papers concerning photographs and 'other ' material on personal computers and what will constitute as illegal. As yet nothing has been finalised in Parliament but now the process has started it is only a matter of time.
It seems the main difference between the article you linked us too and role play is that they did have a plan and had picked out targets. If they had people two women instead of two children I am sure there would have been a similar outcome. It may have come under the UK stalking laws as they would have had to work out the routines of the people they planned to rape.
With regard to the man who went to the police, once charged his case would have been heard in front of a jury. The evidence must have been enough for all 12 jurors to believe he was guilty of planning this.

It does raise questions about the UK being a 'nanny state' but crime is rising at such a rate, that it some places are considered 'no go areas at any time of day or night.

I do see your points about 'thought police' and what effect will this have on people who read or RP rape.
I have never understood people who do either of those things. Just as I don't understand people who have threads about planning a rape of their SO with their consent.
Rape in itself is a hideous crime which leaves emotional scars with the victim and those who love them for years. There are people out there who are followers of others, if rape is talked about as being 'hot' or possible, then someone will try and make those fantasies reality.

 

[marieR19]

I just now read the original post and article, and I'm a mixture of mad and confused. How exactly do they plan to enforce such a law? I admit, I haven't researched to see what else I can find out about it, but from what I read so far it seems to be very vague... like, the terminology and stuff.

Of course, when it comes to pornography laws, most if it does seem vague, there are so many different "definitions" of pornography, violent acts, etc, that it really makes me wonder how many people would get unfairly jailed if it actually became law. And I'm not even talking about consentual vs not, but just with differing definitions of what people consider violent porn.

*shrugs* This is very interesting, and very bad if it comes to be. I would say something to the effect of "thankfully I live in the US", but with Bush in power, I can't count on anything. (no offense, any Bush-supporters).


Heather