Public Comments and YDD

[Liar]

Re: YDD is a Ying Yang~

Wow, I truely find it hard to believe that
so many miss understood this poem. After
an E-mail with...the zen master of pen...lol (jim)
I will enlighten those who see this as verbal
lashings...perhaps you should read the poem
and not the title,

I read the poem, and it is not a personal lashing at our mysterious critic friend, but as you say, an attempt to get the thin skinned take this kind of critisism the right way. For this, i salute you.

But I think I agree with one of the comments on your poem, that simply asked what the big deal was all about. The strong reactions, either positive or negative, are to me compleytely incomprehensible. I mean hey, it's just comments, and very constructive, helpful and encouraging comments too.

If you want to see critisism that puts the poets down, I'm sure I could dig some up for you, the kind that makes my blood boil and adrenaline pump out my ears.

Here are some, all by anonymous commenters:

"You really shouldn't write anything at all. You are embarrassing to read."

"You call this poetry?"

"Yeah, why don't you?" (to a very dark and personal poem that ended in something like "Why don't I just give up, and die?")

Now, that is slander. Pointless hurtful remarks that does no good for anyone. Those are your real Yang if you ask me. Compared to that, an YDD-comment is all praise.

That is basically what bothers me about all this debacle. People who gets upset over such critisism as the one YDD proovies must be terrifyingly insecure. People who even bother to write a poem about it are barking up the wrong tree. no offense intended, but that's how I see it.

peace everyone,
#L

 

[thenry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: YDD is a Ying Yang~

as well as "Verbal lashings on show your
limitations...put you energys into your
creations."

So that is what I will do...
In another post I said YDD asked if I was a
tiger or a tigger...that can be found if you'll
click in my signature were it says..."THE TIGER"

Then it appears, to reference an early post, that YDD has not only chosen favorite poets and the controversy is not all in vain.

 

[Liar]

I am with Art on this one where some of the poems that have been trashed by YDD and a few others have been works that were published in poem books, the first one appearing in print almost ten years ago now. Someone obviously liked it and though well enough of it to put it into a book, heck a few of my poems are even read on audio tapes of poetry.

I read poetry. I read a bunch of it for the Friday review. There were some that I just didn't like and others that had glaringly obvious in the light of day errors but ya know what I don't make it my lifes goal to go and crap all over someone's poetry publically. If I find something that I think would work better another way then I send it to them through the feedback function.

And yes the bleeding hearts will say but you can turn the feedback button off you can turn the anon feedback off... blah blah blah... so now because someone couldn't control their urge to a be a dickhead I am supposed to shut it down for everyone. I think not.

See, this is what I don't get.

I have read all the new poems on this site for about 8 months now, and I have yet to see a poem that this YDD person have (to use you own words) trashed, or that he have crapped all over someone's poetry publically.

If you think that constructive suggestions is the same as trashing a poem, then, my dear friend, you really need to get out more. See my previous post for REAL examples of crapping all over someone, and you'll find that here's a world of difference.

But you do have one interresting point, although I don't agree fully with it. You say that editing suggestions and such is better to give via private feedback. And in a way I agree with that. The Public Comments should be as much for the reader as for the poet, and specifics like that doesn't often mean very much to the other readers.

But are the public comments only indended for unconditional praise then? I sure hope not.

#L

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: YDD is a Ying Yang~

Then it appears, to reference an early post, that YDD has not only chosen favorite poets and the controversy is not all in vain.

Well....deep huh?

Every one had their favorites including me.
we call them friends or preferences.

I am trying not to Knock YDD for his
charactor. In fact the poem inplies he is
my opposite. The "YIN" (Dark side) to my
Yang. this is important and why I named
the poem what I did.

You know even hitler thought he was right
in his thoughts...we all feel strongly about our
life, our family and our friends...I used this
poem to show the girl in question that was
crying...and upset. That it was as a teacher
would call upon us and correct us...(this also
was in the poem)

This is what YDD does. I on the other hand
praise all who writes...for it is our souls in
words or thoughts. jim (jthessra) has been
a whole lot harder on me than YDD they are
the same. But as I told jim I learn from each
lesson.

This is what I was hopeing to get across in
my poem. I fear not a bad comment. For I
know what I can do. But for the newbie or
those who get upset about a comment I was
hopeing to show them a better way to recieive
feedback.

As wicked has said by starting this thread that
YDD has come under fire by my posting...
but then again I feel YDD knows I'm no tigger.

even for a country boy like myself I can read
between the lines and see who befriends this
man. And I wish not to stir the fire of their
emotions. But he stirred the fire in one girls
heart who (yes) turned off her comments now.
It is a two way street. I have gotten a whole lot
worse comments than "LIAR"...Lmao..

But we tend to defend a friend...

Bows humble ......Thanks....Art

 

[thenry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: YDD is a Ying Yang~

But we tend to defend a friend...

And this is what worries me, that YDD is no longer really a person here, but a tag on an idea of intellectual / poetic superiority. Love him or hate him, we argue over the place and worthiness of criticism.

 

[Angeline]

Ya know I was going to stay away from this thread but after stewing about it decided to stay screw it and come out anyway...

Many of us write poetry.

There is no actual definition of WHAT poetry should be. I look at it one way and everyone else does too.

I think that it takes some balls to actually post poetry and stories on this site. We have everyone from seasoned writers or people that are just barely getting their feet wet in this pool of words.

I am with Art on this one where some of the poems that have been trashed by YDD and a few others have been works that were published in poem books, the first one appearing in print almost ten years ago now. Someone obviously liked it and though well enough of it to put it into a book, heck a few of my poems are even read on audio tapes of poetry.

I read poetry. I read a bunch of it for the Friday review. There were some that I just didn't like and others that had glaringly obvious in the light of day errors but ya know what I don't make it my lifes goal to go and crap all over someone's poetry publically. If I find something that I think would work better another way then I send it to them through the feedback function.

And yes the bleeding hearts will say but you can turn the feedback button off you can turn the anon feedback off... blah blah blah... so now because someone couldn't control their urge to a be a dickhead I am supposed to shut it down for everyone. I think not.

Elizabeth, with all due respect--and I am sincere in that and my appreciation of your poetry--I don't understand your attitude about feedback. I try to be polite in my reviews of what others write. I have been an editor as well as a writer for many years, and I think I understand better than most who haven't had that experience that people are sensitive about the art they create. People here who know me know I have always argued strenuously to review critically but KINDLY. If I say I think x isn't working in a poem, I say it respectfully and try to offer an alternative. I recognize that the writer may disagree and that's fine. It's simply my opinion. And if someone tells me they don't want reviews--critical or otherwise--I respect that, too, and say nothing.

What I don't understand--and I know this is just me, but I'm sure others feel this way--why wouldn't you want to learn from comments if it could help you learn to be a better writer? I realize that this site is not one where that is everyone's goal, but as I said--all someone has to do is say "I don't want to hear it," and most reviewers here will back off. I fail to see how saying some of the things YDD says--or others here for that matter--can be construed as crapping all over a person's writing. The examples Liar provides are more that--totally unconstructive--but even then, irritating as they are, they're just someone's opinion. And how does telling someone if you don't want to be criticized turn off feedback (or say you don't want it) make for a "bleeding heart"? I simply don't uderstand what you mean by that, though I certainly know the term. I mean I understand that "Your poem is trash" is not constructive; I don't understand how "here is, in my opinion, a better way to say this" makes its writer a dickhead.

Art, I did not see your poem as lashing out at all--I was responding to the issues it raised for me in relation to other comments about YDD. I had a poem that I posted at another forum--one where reviewers are much more critical (and personal about it) than they are here, and my poem was trashed. People said some pretty nasty things about it being poorly written, trite, etc. This same poem, without revision, was published by a highly respected literary magazine. This goes straight to Lauren's point--they're just opinions. I love Kerouac and I think he used a certain style for a certain effect--or maybe it's just who he was, his style, but Lauren has her opinion and I have mine.

A former regular on this board once wrote a lengthy opinion about Shakespeare's sonnets and why whatever they are, they aren't poetry. As Elizabeth says, there's no definitive on what poetry is. Fine. Isn't that the argument (and justification) for the variety of opinions represented here and elsewhere?

And Thenry, I hear what you're saying. I could support your statement about poetry not being synonomous with quality a hundred times over. No argument there. And yes people are sensitive about their words and this is Lit, not Ploughshares or Poetry Magazine. So we try to be respectful, some more than others. But any writing forum where "reviewers" routinely praise every piece of writing, regardless of its instrinsic quality, is not one I want to be a part of, though having been here over two years, I have no desire to leave.

And anyone who thinks that criticism of their writing makes them not fit in or be a have not or whatever should NOT feel that way. If you do, please know that I don't see it that way at all. We're all just people writing here. To believe otherwise--that there are classes of poets or people here--based or what they write or who likes or doesn't like their poems smacks of something utterly repugnant to me that plays out in too many ugly ways in our lives already. Everyone is welcome here and deserves respect. Everyone.

Peace to all.


Ange

 

[WickedEve]

People here who know me know I have always argued strenuously to review critically but KINDLY.

You have always been polite in your feedback. Constructive criticism can be presented kindly. When I was first here, a poem of mine received constructive feedback that I felt wasn't exactly friendly. I honestly wanted the person's head on a platter. I'm past that now, and besides, I don't have a platter. But when you're new to critiques, it is almost traumatic. I do try to keep this in mind when I offer feedback.

I had a poem that I posted at another forum--one where reviewers are much more critical (and personal about it) than they are here, and my poem was trashed. People said some pretty nasty things about it being poorly written, trite, etc. This same poem, without revision, was published by a highly respected literary magazine.

This is important to remember. No poet here should let any comments keep them from writing. I've had poems win awards or be featured at respected poetry e-zines, and those same poems have received less than flattering feedback on other forums. Opinions do vary greatly.

And anyone who thinks that criticism of their writing makes them not fit in or be a have not or whatever should NOT feel that way.

I second that.

 

[My Erotic Tail]

The Chatter~

This reminds me off college or more so
High School were the students sit in
the lunch room and talk about their
teachers. The good ones or the bad
ones and why they theach as they do.

I teach, jim has been critical and teaches
in his way by going to great length to break
a story or poem down and into sentences
anybody else gotten those from him. And
tristesse commented on a poem I had telling
me the incorrectness and I have reaspect
for her from that one comment. So it is done
in various ways.

I like others have gone to YDD's listings to
see what good poetry should look like and
was very disapointed to find one poem that
was, not of my taste...hehehe I believe
showing is the best teacher of all. Others
teach differently. I questioned his motives for
why and the way he goes about his reviews
with nothing in his list and why he is compeld
to beat jim in the feedback portal. Which is
when his reign began.

Where am I going wih this? WICKED has begun
this thread in light of the attacks YDD has
gotten since my poem. In my Poems comments
I suspect. He has touched very many...I don't
know any body who has commented as much
as he has on my stuff or the freind in question.
He wanted to place a comment on all our stuff?
For what ever reason he feels compeled to.
Then when a comment is made back about him
his freinds stand up for him...then we are in the
same boat on different seas.

I will try my hardest to keep this in perspective
dear WICKED. I think I understand the emotions
his friends are feeling but I think they should
remember one thing. Who is YDD and why he
chooses to use this name to comment to save
his other works from attacks that he himself
does???curious but not mine to question I
suppose.

The thread is about the verbal attacks on him
at my poems post. because thats like this thread
about this man and his comments. And
constructive as his critism is. He put himself
on the line and the words are mixed. I see
he has touched many. Their eyes are closed
to what they want to see. Have they seen
the frustration of a begining artist under his
magnifing glass. SOME TAKE IT WELL...OTHERS
DON'T...tHE YING AND THE YANG IN ALL THINGS.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: The Chatter~

Have they seen
the frustration of a begining artist under his
magnifing glass. SOME TAKE IT WELL...OTHERS
DON'T...tHE YING AND THE YANG IN ALL THINGS.

Sometimes, I forget what it's like. I've been that beginning artist. I've received harsh (openly rude) comments. But being a tough wicked bitch, I hung in there and took every bit of criticism and became a better poet. I do realize some poets would have been devastated and given up. I don't want anyone feeling that way. So, I for one will try to be even more gentle in my feedback. I do try to find something positive in most poems. I find it best to say, "Great line! Good phrase. Have you thought about breaking this poem up into stanzas to make it easier to read?"

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Re: Re: The Chatter~

Sometimes, I forget what it's like. I've been that beginning artist. I've received harsh (openly rude) comments. But being a tough wicked bitch, I hung in there and took every bit of criticism and became a better poet. I do realize some poets would have been devastated and given up. I don't want anyone feeling that way. So, I for one will try to be even more gentle in my feedback. I do try to find something positive in most poems. I find it best to say, "Great line! Good phrase. Have you thought about breaking this poem up into stanzas to make it easier to read?"

BAM BAM BAM:

Hit the nail on the head with a hammer here..
Bravo~

This shows the beauty of the flowers on your
bush...WICKED (no pun intended...lol)

Others show a lot of thorns...


{THENRY}
And this is what worries me, that YDD is no longer really a person here, but a tag on an idea of intellectual / poetic superiority. Love him or hate him, we argue over the place and worthiness of criticism........................................

First off who gave him this title and as wicked
said it can be done in way that it is much more
appreciated...we all except an intellegent
guide or teacher...but the pattern speaks
for itself.

One more thing....YDD is not gone...they are
back to their other name...for what ever reason
they felt they needed to have a name to critic with.
They can stand up and say hey...you can't take
the heat...get out of the kitchen...

as for the attacks on him in my comments...
he stood up for himself in DEAR YDD...
But perhaps this is a different leg...smiles...
and that Author didn't do his homework
as I have...before I stepped on this line.

"He who who fails to prepare...prepares
to fail...perhaps he is prepareing or writng
his second submission...Art is a jerk..hehehe
I would give him a ^5 if he did...smiles...

 

[Angeline]

Just two comments. YDD is not my personal friend. I don't know who he or she is and, in fact, have never spoken to him. I've only read the comments on poems, like others here have. I just feel what I feel.

Oh and I taught, too--English, seventh grade (12 year olds) and college level. I think any teacher worth his or her degree understands that different people are reached in different ways (and cares enough to make the effort to reach out and do whatever it takes). Unfortunately many teachers--in and out of classrooms--don't understand that. Still, recognizing peoples' different needs is sort of a way of understanding yin and yang, too, isn't it?

 

[The_Fool]

I enjoy comments, good and bad. Yes bad ones sometimes get me excited, but that is human nature.

First thought. Sometimes it's difficult to except criticism from someone that has not earned your respect. You respect coaches, teachers, peers that have shown competence. If a stranger walks up and says "You could really do it better this way," then most people want to turn around and say "Who the fuck are you to criticize." That is the knee jerk response. If you take the time to think about it, then sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the context.

Second Thought. I have seen writers whose style of writing makes them come off as pompous. Some of them are and some of them are not. The words are not the whole message. Poets, more than any other writers should know this.

Third Thought. YDD appears to have a very high standard. I really cannot fault any criticism he as made on my work. Usually, it has been more a suggestion or a general comment. Only once has he made a flippant comment. Me, being the asshole immediatedly turned that into a poem....

I'm like that sometimes.

I'll take any critique. At least you know that someone is paying attention. I get tired of talking to the hand....

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Angeline~

Very good Grasshopper...smiles..

very well put..(~_*)

 

[WickedEve]

For the record, I don't know who YDD is either. I've never spoken to him/her. I once sent YDD a comment about feedback, and then I sent the link to this thread. So, I'm not defending a friend by starting this thread.

 

[Angeline]

Re: Angeline~

Very good Grasshopper...smiles..

very well put..(~_*)

 

[Liar]

3 things:

1. No, I have no connection to the YDDster either.

2. Any fear that he/she would give up the ghost seems to be redundant. I just got an YDD-comment on my latest poem.

3. Everytime I see Angeline's current AV, I just want to point and say Awww in a ridiculously cutesy voice.

#L

 

[Lauren Hynde]

YDD is not my personal friend. I don't know who he or she is and, in fact, have never spoken to him. I've only read the comments on poems, like others here have. I just feel what I feel.

Ditto.

 

[Angeline]

3 things:

1. No, I have no connection to the YDDster either.

2. Any fear that he/she would give up the ghost seems to be redundant. I just got an YDD-comment on my latest poem.

3. Everytime I see Angeline's current AV, I just want to point and say Awww in a ridiculously cutesy voice.

#L

It's not us you know--but kinda looks like us (well on a really really great day in my case, lol), but it was an inside joke cause it's an artist named Buddy Miller and I think... oh god never mind. Seriously Too Much Information.

 

[Linbido]

It's not us you know--but kinda looks like us (well on a really really great day in my case, lol), but it was an inside joke cause it's an artist named Buddy Miller and I think... oh god never mind. Seriously Too Much Information.

Well it sure fooled me. I'll bet the real thing would make an equally cute photo.

So, what's all this ciritic vs criticee stuff going on? Oh, never mind. Just mark me saying that YDD can be as YDD as YDD wants to with my poetry. And so can the rest of you.

love
-Lin

 

[Ancient117331]

Fairness

Comments may be constructive or destructive, pleasant to the reader/writer or not... but in fairness - everyone has an opinion, and THAT's ok.

Any suggestions that are given may be followed or not... I ONLY write as I feel, about what and how I feel at a given moment or about a given subject or motivation. Sometimes I find clarity, while at other times its 'opaqueness' I'm after - let the mind of any given reader determine how best my effort applies to their own views or thoughts or emotions or even - their lives.

Personally, I try to not attack the 'messenger' nor the message... just to appreciate the 'flavours' their are in life. However, there ARE messages that need be addressed - those that belittle, those that directly lie or specifically hurt, those that require a political correctness that leads to injury or prejudice, and those promoting any form of censorship.

YDD and many others here and elsewhere have commented on some (or at least one) of my poems - it usually wasn't done badly or with mean-spiritedness. If you can't laugh at yourself - we all have our own foibles, how can you really appreciate life?

I wrote the following a while back - it still fits
--------------------
Censorship is wrong
Period.

This is dedicated to all of those and their previously accepted works vanished from:
Global Writers Poets and lyrics Club(?) at Yahoo

"Where's The Beef..."

He entered within
Paused...
Looked around...
Vacant faces were all he found.
Puzzled, he sat down.

"Welcome Sir,
To this 'fraternity'...
Here's your menu,
Now then...
What will it be?"

Gazing lightly 'cross the proferred list,
"Why... Where's The Beef?"

"Oh!! Pardon Sir..."
And looking 'round...
"Why there's no 'Beef' here...
It seems they just all disappear."

"We serve 'Chicken' here...
And children...
'tis more... tender... juicy...
and the children agree."

"What's that Sir?
Excuse me,
But I can't hear...
Why you're fading away!!!"

Removing the menu,
Pushing in the chair...
Wiping the table
That now is bare.

The thought still echoing
Through the room...
"He must have disagreed..."
They assumed...

Chris Twyford
Ancient117331

YDD, the waters are sometimes colder than hell
but is better to swim than stand looking from the shore and wishing evermore.

Laters,

Chris Twyford
Ancient117331

 

[SeattleRain]

Holy Cow what did we used to talk about before YDD?


And as for knowing him/her personally, well I have never met him/her, have written a few thank you's for taking the time to review etc, BUT I have a secret....


I leave milk and a plate of cookies out on the mantle every night with a little note,

Dear YDD,

I have been a gud--- I mean goodgirl.
Do you like my poem?
Please say something nice,

I hope you like the cookies.

Am I your favorite?

Love,

SeattleRain

 

[My Erotic Tail]

Y Ding Dang~

Y Ding Dang~

The Zen Master of Pen...
Has written Again...hehehe

Figured ya'll would feel better knowing that...
smiles......

 

[Angeline]

Holy Cow what did we used to talk about before YDD?


And as for knowing him/her personally, well I have never met him/her, have written a few thank you's for taking the time to review etc, BUT I have a secret....


I leave milk and a plate of cookies out on the mantle every night with a little note,

Dear YDD,

I have been a gud--- I mean goodgirl.
Do you like my poem?
Please say something nice,

I hope you like the cookies.

Am I your favorite?

Love,

SeattleRain

Yes, sheesh--I'm decaring tomorrow a YDD-free day. I refuse to say his/her name for the next 24 hours (nothing personal, YDD, just ... enough already).

 

[Joseki Ko]

allrighty then

Interesting thread you've got going here.

Lets just see if I understand the starting points.

A submission to a public forum that invites comments should not be upset when they receive comments, be they bad or good.

Bad comments should not be used to liberally especially on newer poets.

Those are currently the two schools of thought I see I in this thread.

They both have merit as far as I can see. If you invite a comment you have to accept the bad with the good enen if it is expressed badly. Critical comments should take into account who they are being posted to. If your commenting to a new writer who has little confidence an overly liberal comment can cause serious damage.

Both arguments have merit and are equally redeemable.

Now I'm going to add in a little more. Public comments can also be commented upon. Any comment you make can be commented on in return. Obviously the rule about turning off the public comments section on your submission works both ways. If you don't want your comment to be commented on us the FEEDBACK option and make it non-public. It will greatly reduce the chance you might have a poem written about you.

 

[Liar]

Holy Cow what did we used to talk about before YDD?

Senna?
Whom, I might add, I also appriciated in all his brutal honesty. Wonder where he's at these days...