Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[ownedsubgal]

osg, your lifestyle mimics the kind of behavior that KILLS its victims, which is why all those sanctions are in place. And in fact, since the sanctions became more strongly placed, domestic violence deaths have dropped.

I think you are acting like a spoiled brat, frankly. You want to compare your plight to GLBT? Fine, learn to live in the closet. In most part of the country two men cannot touch hands in public without risking their reputations, careers, lives. Not so long ago, they could have been thrown in jail, and youngsters still get committed to mental hospitals at their parent's discretion-- those very same parents who, as often as not, indulge in domestic abuse.

Maybe daddy can learn to not give you black eyes which can be seen at the grocery store.

And it would behoove you and your daddy to avoid beating you till you need a hospital visit.

my Master and i are not mimicking anything or anyone. we only live in a way which comes naturally to us, and which just plain works for us. still, i recognize that the sum total of the nature of the way we live will NEVER likely be accepted by popular society...and you know what, i can deal with that. as i stated before, my hope is for there to be some mainstream acceptance of D/s relationships in general.

but even if i can never hope to have my relationship accepted by the world at large, it would be nice if i could live without worry or fear that at any moment someone on the outside has the power to tear our world apart. and it's a very valid fear...i have been lying on a hospital bed, sick and confused, tubes everywhere, trying to convince two incredibly persistent police officers and a dimwit psychologist that i'm not being abused. spoiled brat? i just wanted so badly for them to leave me alone and let me be with Daddy. at at time when i needed my Master's support the most, we were forcibly separated from each other and he was treated like a criminal. and i, like a naive and stupid young thing who didn't know any better. they held me in a psych ward for nearly 6 weeks. the police came just about everyday, questioning and probing, sometimes yelling and demanding.

and what made them come down on us so hard...was i in the hospital because my Master had dealt me a life-threatening injury? no. my injury was entirely at my own hands. but in the process of saving my life and stripping me naked, they saw the many old bruises which covered my body. in the course of pumping my stomach, they noticed the absence of food. and in questioning the neighbors (a place we'd lived less than a year), they discovered that supposedly no one had ever even seen me. i really can't think of anything else they possibly could have had to go on. but it was more than enough to convince them that they should step in and "rescue" me.

it took a massive amount of internal fortitude, level-headedness and just plain cleverness on the part of my Master in order for us to come out clean on the other side. we had to learn the letter of the law to the nth degree, and use it in our favor. thank goodness Daddy is as smart as he is, and that his lawyer is as wonderful as he is. because otherwise he would have lost his son, and i would have lost everything which gave my life, LIFE.

in the many years since, we have come across others who have been faced with similar horror stories, only without such a happy ending. loss of careers, divorces, loss of child custody (this one is frighteningly common, esp. with submissive mothers), even jail time. i know one submissive woman who has not been permitted to see her young son for more than a handful of supervised hours a month in 5 years or more.

there are better ways to reach out to and help those who truly need it. ways which do not involve criminalizing the everyday lives of those who don't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I am sorry that you suffered through that, osg. But again I say, if you are going to go so extremely against the grain of current society, be aware of that fact and protect yourself. And you are displaying that same moral outrage against other people about a past incident-- that ought to lead to YOUR growth and knowledge, IMO-- as you do about the Horrible Girl Tongue That made You So Ashamed Of Yourself.

Other women have their lives saved by those same persistant police-- twenty or forty years ago, they would have walked away from evidence of abuse. The "dimwit psychologist" has had many an experience of victims denying that anything was wrong. if she listens to that, she has a potential corpse on her hands.

there are better ways to reach out to and help those who truly need it. ways which do not involve criminalizing the everyday lives of those who don't.

Do you have any suggestions?

 

[NomadLady]

my Master and i are not mimicking anything or anyone. we only live in a way which comes naturally to us, and which just plain works for us. still, i recognize that the sum total of the nature of the way we live will NEVER likely be accepted by popular society...and you know what, i can deal with that. as i stated before, my hope is for there to be some mainstream acceptance of D/s relationships in general.

but even if i can never hope to have my relationship accepted by the world at large, it would be nice if i could live without worry or fear that at any moment someone on the outside has the power to tear our world apart. and it's a very valid fear...i have been lying on a hospital bed, sick and confused, tubes everywhere, trying to convince two incredibly persistent police officers and a dimwit psychologist that i'm not being abused. spoiled brat? i just wanted so badly for them to leave me alone and let me be with Daddy. at at time when i needed my Master's support the most, we were forcibly separated from each other and he was treated like a criminal. and i, like a naive and stupid young thing who didn't know any better. they held me in a psych ward for nearly 6 weeks. the police came just about everyday, questioning and probing, sometimes yelling and demanding.

and what made them come down on us so hard...was i in the hospital because my Master had dealt me a life-threatening injury? no. my injury was entirely at my own hands. but in the process of saving my life and stripping me naked, they saw the many old bruises which covered my body. in the course of pumping my stomach, they noticed the absence of food. and in questioning the neighbors (a place we'd lived less than a year), they discovered that supposedly no one had ever even seen me. i really can't think of anything else they possibly could have had to go on. but it was more than enough to convince them that they should step in and "rescue" me.

it took a massive amount of internal fortitude, level-headedness and just plain cleverness on the part of my Master in order for us to come out clean on the other side. we had to learn the letter of the law to the nth degree, and use it in our favor. thank goodness Daddy is as smart as he is, and that his lawyer is as wonderful as he is. because otherwise he would have lost his son, and i would have lost everything which gave my life, LIFE.

in the many years since, we have come across others who have been faced with similar horror stories, only without such a happy ending. loss of careers, divorces, loss of child custody (this one is frighteningly common, esp. with submissive mothers), even jail time. i know one submissive woman who has not been permitted to see her young son for more than a handful of supervised hours a month in 5 years or more.

there are better ways to reach out to and help those who truly need it. ways which do not involve criminalizing the everyday lives of those who don't.

At the risk of sounding like a callous bitch....it sounds as though your own attempt at suicide caused these problems so you have no one to blame but yourself. If "Daddy" is so great, why did you want to die?

 

[sb2009]

I have worked in the domestic violence and the sexual assault prevention field.

Police officers, by and large, were pretty jaded. Even when injuries resulted in hospitalization, they did a quick interview and left thier cards.

There have been some victims that I think should have been put under at least 24 hour observation, they were clearly a danger to themselves and others - but the only time that happend was when a victim had an injury they admitted to as self-induced. It's just the best way overall to help someone who is not in a position to help themselves.

 

[JMohegan]

I had a very similar thing happen with a family member. His wife did the same thing. It lasted 18 years, they are divorced now but things will just never be the same....he is no longer the brother that I grew up with....

I'm sorry that happened to you. I know, it's very painful.

Yep. To me, it seems like an incredible selfishness.

Incredibly selfish, yes. But it seems to me that it's a peculiarly self-loathing type of selfishness, or at least a selfishness borne of a deficit in self esteem. Close friends and family are part of who you are, as a human being. To cut them off entirely is to reject a big part of your own unique identity.

Getting back to the OP's original question about other players and SSC, I'd say that from my perspective it didn't matter whether V's relationship was with a D/s-style Mistress or not. For me, the effect was the same. And I wouldn't call it a violation of norms regarding other players and SSC, but rather a violation of basic rules of decency in human interaction. Expecting, demanding, or asking a partner to cut off ties with previously close friends and family is just a fucking shitty thing to do, no matter what label you slap on yourself or how you structure your relationship.

 

[ownedsubgal]

At the risk of sounding like a callous bitch....it sounds as though your own attempt at suicide caused these problems so you have no one to blame but yourself. If "Daddy" is so great, why did you want to die?

major depression, life long. it's even more of a callous b**** than you are (sounding like).

 

[NomadLady]

major depression, life long. it's even more of a callous b**** than you are (sounding like).

So do you reject treatment or what? You seem to be pretty happy blaming your troubles on society rather than taking responsibility for your own actions. I would still think if "Daddy" was so great, he would make sure you were getting therapy and meds to control the depression.

 

[NomadLady]

I'm sorry that happened to you. I know, it's very painful.


Incredibly selfish, yes. But it seems to me that it's a peculiarly self-loathing type of selfishness, or at least a selfishness borne of a deficit in self esteem. Close friends and family are part of who you are, as a human being. To cut them off entirely is to reject a big part of your own unique identity.

Getting back to the OP's original question about other players and SSC, I'd say that from my perspective it didn't matter whether V's relationship was with a D/s-style Mistress or not. For me, the effect was the same. And I wouldn't call it a violation of norms regarding other players and SSC, but rather a violation of basic rules of decency in human interaction. Expecting, demanding, or asking a partner to cut off ties with previously close friends and family is just a fucking shitty thing to do, no matter what label you slap on yourself or how you structure your relationship.

Thank you J. The situation in my family wasn't D/s related either, just a controlling bitch who wanted their needs to be above everyone else. Sad now that she divorced him, re-connecting with all the people he left behind has been a struggle that is should have been avoided. To a certain extent it will never be "right" and he still works for his ex father-in-law. But you are right, it's just a shitty thing to do to another human being and exemplifies the insecurity of someone who does such things....

 

[BiBunny]

At the risk of sounding like a callous bitch....it sounds as though your own attempt at suicide caused these problems so you have no one to blame but yourself. If "Daddy" is so great, why did you want to die?

So do you reject treatment or what? You seem to be pretty happy blaming your troubles on society rather than taking responsibility for your own actions. I would still think if "Daddy" was so great, he would make sure you were getting therapy and meds to control the depression.

Wow. I know osg doesn't need me to defend her, but I think a lot of this was uncalled for.

 

[Keroin]

But you are right, it's just a shitty thing to do to another human being and exemplifies the insecurity of someone who does such things....

This very much sums up my ex and where his head was at. The bottom line was that he saw everyone else as a threat to his relationship (control) over me. And, ironically, the very people he had painted as the most harmful to me, were the ones who were there to help me pick up the pieces and move forward when I finally grew some brains and a back bone and left. It became very obvious to me, very quickly, that nothing he had said about any of those people was true.

I'm just thankful I didn't do irreparable damage to the ties between myself and those who loved me most. But the rebuilding definitely took time.

 

[NomadLady]

Wow. I know osg doesn't need me to defend her, but I think a lot of this was uncalled for.

Did you read her posts? Not accepting responsibility for your own actions then whining on a forum is about attention seeking, usually nothing more than that and isn't deserving of my sympathy.

If her bruising etc had been found at the hospital after a car wreck, etc...and not from a failed suicide attempt that would be a different story. But you get on here and claim to have such a great "daddy" and you still manage to try and take your own life.....you just don't seem that believeable anymore.

 

[BiBunny]

Did you read her posts? Not accepting responsibility for your own actions then whining on a forum is about attention seeking, usually nothing more than that and isn't deserving of my sympathy.

If her bruising etc had been found at the hospital after a car wreck, etc...and not from a failed suicide attempt that would be a different story. But you get on here and claim to have such a great "daddy" and you still manage to try and take your own life.....you just don't seem that believeable anymore.

Yes. I read them. I'm fairly literate, believe it or not. I still believe your posts were unnecessary.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Wow. I know osg doesn't need me to defend her, but I think a lot of this was uncalled for.

Awfully blunt? Maybe. But worth asking.

I would like the answers to that second question myself-- along with one I asked;

there are better ways to reach out to and help those who truly need it. ways which do not involve criminalizing the everyday lives of those who don't.

Do you have any suggestions?

Here's the thing; ownedsubgal IS in an abusive relationship. By absolutely every standard of abuse. Regardless of how happy it makes her, and I think it really does make her happier than any lifetime of drugs and headshrinking could do.

But she won't get very far trying to stop an entire society's (newly-learned, and thank god for it) reaction to signs of abuse.

 

[sb2009]

welll, I sort of look at it like this...how many relationships in the D/s dynamic are such that actual prosectution is pursued? or forced hospitalization in a mental health facility?

One woman in the Masters/slaves forum at Fet talked about having to go through a humiliating time as a hostile witness against her master..but (a couple of months ago?) it turns out she and her master were actually not even living together, or had met, let alone actually living as extreme as they talked about. One mater talks about having to isolate and restrain his slave when his slave

From what I read on here and over there, generally what people have to put up with are raised eyebrows and family members who offer advice because they don't understand, but nothing so extreme as having to deal with police.

If by and large, an extremly small percentage is OK with black eyes, but for everyone else, black eyes are a sign that someone is being hurt....it just seems that more harm would be done, to lots and lots of people, if law enforcement, health care, etc, figured a battered body was just a sign of being someone's property.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Other women have their lives saved by those same persistant police-- twenty or forty years ago, they would have walked away from evidence of abuse. The "dimwit psychologist" has had many an experience of victims denying that anything was wrong. if she listens to that, she has a potential corpse on her hands.

Do you have any suggestions?

yes actually, quite a few. but they all start with the same thing...someone reaching out for help. this is part of that being a grown-up stuff. i'm not saying a DV victim needs to pull up their bootstraps, pack their bags and hit the road...that's usually the very worst thing to do. but if legal authorities are looking for signs of non-consent, they should first find out whether or not the suspected victim has made any attempts to reach out for help. even the teensiest, tiniest step, like calling 911 and hanging up or telling a neighbor they were scared. maybe when directly questioned they can't gather the courage to speak out, but are able to check "yes" on a piece of paper discreetly handed to them. anything.

but if there has been no reaching out at all, and moreover, they express the desire to be left alone...then those people need to be left alone.

oh and btw...that particular psychologist was actually a dimwit. absolutely every question she asked, every conclusion she drew, even down to her tone of voice, was drawn verbatim from diagnostic manuals and texts. if i had actually been a woman in need of that kind of help, she would not have been able to provide it. unfortunately the same can be said of many mental health professionals. it's a dismally backwards field...but that's another topic.

 

[VelvetSin]

If by and large, an extremly small percentage is OK with black eyes, but for everyone else, black eyes are a sign that someone is being hurt....it just seems that more harm would be done, to lots and lots of people, if law enforcement, health care, etc, figured a battered body was just a sign of being someone's property.

This. For the majority of those prosecuted for domestic abuse and victims given real help and resources, they are truly abusers and abuse victims. Many of those victims would argue the laws and consequences should be much more strict than they are. The guidelines and jail time are put in place to protect the real victims and they're that strict because they need to be. When it comes to someone entering into a consensual Master/slave relationship to the extreme that it triggers police involvement for whatever reason, it's a case of inconveniencing the few for the well-being of the many. While it doesn't make it easy for those few, they made a choice with the knowledge of what the laws are. A real abuse victim isn't given that choice, so I think it's a good thing the laws lean the way they do for those victims' protection. The judicial system is the way it is so that those actually innocent (in that consensual relationship) can defend themselves, and it sounds like it worked in osg's situation even if it meant separation and inconvenience.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Did you read her posts? Not accepting responsibility for your own actions then whining on a forum is about attention seeking, usually nothing more than that and isn't deserving of my sympathy.

If her bruising etc had been found at the hospital after a car wreck, etc...and not from a failed suicide attempt that would be a different story. But you get on here and claim to have such a great "daddy" and you still manage to try and take your own life.....you just don't seem that believeable anymore.

the absolute last thing i want is sympathy or attention from outsiders, and especially not from someone like you. we are strangers, and i can't say i've noticed many of your posts. obviously our beliefs and ways of life are very, very different. but to sum it up neatly for you: i've been a slave for 10 years as of next month. i've been depressed for at least 25, as far back as i have memory. Masters are pretty awesome and all, but they cannot cure a serious illness. meds and talk therapy do not help me and many, many other people with lifelong depression. it has been 8 years since i got stupid and attempted to do something i had no right to do.

hopefully that satisfies you...if not, no matter...as Daddy says, it is what it is.

 

[Stella_Omega]

yes actually, quite a few. but they all start with the same thing...someone reaching out for help. this is part of that being a grown-up stuff. i'm not saying a DV victim needs to pull up their bootstraps, pack their bags and hit the road...that's usually the very worst thing to do. but if legal authorities are looking for signs of non-consent, they should first find out whether or not the suspected victim has made any attempts to reach out for help. even the teensiest, tiniest step, like calling 911 and hanging up or telling a neighbor they were scared. maybe when directly questioned they can't gather the courage to speak out, but are able to check "yes" on a piece of paper discreetly handed to them. anything.

but if there has been no reaching out at all, and moreover, they express the desire to be left alone...then those people need to be left alone.

In a better world, yeah. Unfortunately, the first thing social workers learn about in the intervention class is Stockholm Syndrome. Damn Patty Hearst, anyway! Or at least, her lawyers.

Now, let me ask you this; If you consider a battered victim should still be capable of reaching out for help because of that grownup thing, how much sympathy should we have for those desperate older subs that subject themselves to lesbian congress in order to keep their Dom?

oh and btw...that particular psychologist was actually a dimwit. absolutely every question she asked, every conclusion she drew, even down to her tone of voice, was drawn verbatim from diagnostic manuals and texts. if i had actually been a woman in need of that kind of help, she would not have been able to provide it. unfortunately the same can be said of many mental health professionals. it's a dismally backwards field...but that's another topic.

I can take your word for it, I suppose, with the caveat that you were disoriented, ill, tubes running everywhere, and completely hostile to her and her sympathy for your plight.

You had just tried to kill yourself. You were starving. You were bruised.
You wanted her to make exceptions for you. That she didn't does NOT prove she was stupid.

 

[ownedsubgal]

The judicial system is the way it is so that those actually innocent (in that consensual relationship) can defend themselves, and it sounds like it worked in osg's situation even if it meant separation and inconvenience.

please let's not talk about the virtues of our judicial system! the system did not work for us, we played the game and used the system for our benefit. and we were very, super duper extremely fortunate in that circumstances allowed us to do that.

a LOT of people are not so lucky, like the woman i mentioned earlier who lost custody of her child. there was no suspected domestic violence in her relationship...she wasn't even in a relationship. but she was "out" as a submissive. her ex used that info against her, filed for full custody and got it. it's totally shocking to me, or at least was the first time i heard of it happening. but sadly i've learned it's far from a freak occurrence.

so VelvetSin, would you say the judicial system is working for those families?

 

[sb2009]

that sounds more like a civil court issue than a criminal court issue? And, well, sad as it is...his lawyer was better than her lawyer. Which is what divorce usually comes down to.

Women's sexuality has always been used in custody issues...it's not right, but it's not just a D/s issue.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In civil cases such as divorce, the person who can keep paying the lawyer longest is usually the winner. If her D/s lifestyle didn't get the guy what he wanted, he'd have thrown more money at his team to see what else he could dig up. In cases where the wife has the extra cash, she gets the better deal.

 

[ownedsubgal]

that sounds more like a civil court issue than a criminal court issue? And, well, sad as it is...his lawyer was better than her lawyer. Which is what divorce usually comes down to.

Women's sexuality has always been used in custody issues...it's not right, but it's not just a D/s issue.

of course it's not just a D/s issue. a person's sexual identity should not factor into determining whether or not they are fit to be a guardian. but how many would guess that simply being involved in D/s...even just to the extent of coming out as submissive...could cost them their children?? that's really, really frickin scary.

btw, the particular case i mentioned was not a divorce. she was a single mom, he was a dad with visitation. though i do know of similar outcomes from divorce custody cases as well. either way, that just shouldn't be permitted to happen.

 

[Stella_Omega]

of course it's not just a D/s issue. a person's sexual identity should not factor into determining whether or not they are fit to be a guardian. but how many would guess that simply being involved in D/s...even just to the extent of coming out as submissive...could cost them their children?? that's really, really frickin scary.

btw, the particular case i mentioned was not a divorce. she was a single mom, he was a dad with visitation. though i do know of similar outcomes from divorce custody cases as well. either way, that just shouldn't be permitted to happen.

women have lost custody because they were lesbians, too. Or sex workers. Or had been seen with another man. Or with too many other men.

D/s is just one more smear in the paintbox.

 

[NomadLady]

the absolute last thing i want is sympathy or attention from outsiders, and especially not from someone like you. we are strangers, and i can't say i've noticed many of your posts. obviously our beliefs and ways of life are very, very different. but to sum it up neatly for you: i've been a slave for 10 years as of next month. i've been depressed for at least 25, as far back as i have memory. Masters are pretty awesome and all, but they cannot cure a serious illness. meds and talk therapy do not help me and many, many other people with lifelong depression. it has been 8 years since i got stupid and attempted to do something i had no right to do.

hopefully that satisfies you...if not, no matter...as Daddy says, it is what it is.

OK, memories begin for some people as early as toddler (2) up to five...even at five, depressed for 25 years would make you 30. Does that mean you've been a slave since the age of 20? Did you even have a childhood, young adulthood or is all you've known sexually is being a slave?
This might help answer some questions....

 

[ownedsubgal]

women have lost custody because they were lesbians, too. Or sex workers. Or had been seen with another man. Or with too many other men.

D/s is just one more smear in the paintbox.

so our response should be, "oh well, that happens to a lot of people. life sucks" ?? i say HECK no! we shouldn't just accept it, we need to fight, and do whatever we can to help the uninformed masses to acknowledge dominance and submissiveness as natural identities, and D/s as a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. in my own small way, it's what i try to do everyday. we can't just throw it in, ya know?