Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[VelvetSin]

please let's not talk about the virtues of our judicial system! the system did not work for us, we played the game and used the system for our benefit. and we were very, super duper extremely fortunate in that circumstances allowed us to do that.

a LOT of people are not so lucky, like the woman i mentioned earlier who lost custody of her child. there was no suspected domestic violence in her relationship...she wasn't even in a relationship. but she was "out" as a submissive. her ex used that info against her, filed for full custody and got it. it's totally shocking to me, or at least was the first time i heard of it happening. but sadly i've learned it's far from a freak occurrence.

so VelvetSin, would you say the judicial system is working for those families?

I do think the judicial system worked for you, yes. The two of you agreed that it was consensual and the law ultimately worked in your favor. It may have been difficult or trying for your Master and you personally, but you were not permanently separated and he did not do (significant) time, according to what you mentioned.

As sb2009 and Stella mentioned, the criminal and civil systems are two completely different animals. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" versus "more likely than not" are very different burdens of proof. One is established to avoid punishing the innocent, where the other often comes down to who can provide the most paperwork to prove their case, or who can hire the better lawyer as sb2009 and Stella already mentioned.

To play devils advocate about allowing sexuality to be used in a civil dispute over a child's custody, let's say a self-proclaimed Dominant wanted custody, but he was mainly a domineering asshole who wanted to control every detail of the lives of his family whether they wanted it or not. I hope we can agree that children should be exempt from a D/s dynamic, right? This guy didn't make that distinction. Should the wife and her attorney be allowed to use his self-acknowledged titles and preferences and 'lifestyle' to prove his fitness as a guardian? If it's in the best interest of the child, my opinion is yes, it should.

As adults, anything we say or do can be used against us at some point. It's the way life is, and no one ever said life is fair all the time. It's our responsibility as adults to own our choices and keep them as responsible as possible. The more responsible they are, the less likely we'll end up in a court of law to defend those choices.

 

[ownedsubgal]

To play devils advocate about allowing sexuality to be used in a civil dispute over a child's custody, let's say a self-proclaimed Dominant wanted custody, but he was mainly a domineering asshole who wanted to control every detail of the lives of his family whether they wanted it or not. I hope we can agree that children should be exempt from a D/s dynamic, right? This guy didn't make that distinction. Should the wife and her attorney be allowed to use his self-acknowledged titles and preferences and 'lifestyle' to prove his fitness as a guardian?

absolutely not. because what does it have to do with the price of tea in china? if someone is an unfit parent, then provide examples of the ways in which they are an unfit parent. being dominant doesn't qualify.

as for children in the household being "exempt" from a D/s dynamic...i don't necessarily agree with that. no, they are not directly involved, but it makes up the environment in which they are raised. if a child's parents are practicing christians, should the child be "exempt" from that as well? they should be free to make their own choices at the appropriate time for them, but not shielded from their parent's beliefs and way of life.

 

[VelvetSin]

absolutely not. because what does it have to do with the price of tea in china? if someone is an unfit parent, then provide examples of the ways in which they are an unfit parent. being dominant doesn't qualify.

as for children in the household being "exempt" from a D/s dynamic...i don't necessarily agree with that. no, they are not directly involved, but it makes up the environment in which they are raised. if a child's parents are practicing christians, should the child be "exempt" from that as well? they should be free to make their own choices at the appropriate time for them, but not shielded from their parent's beliefs and way of life.

I feel like I'm debating in circles here, but the bolded part makes me think we'll have to agree to disagree. Under no circumstances, in any way, do I feel a child should be included in a D/s dynamic at all. At all. Exposure and awareness does not equate to being subjected to and Dominated by that dynamic. That's just that in my mind.

 

[Stella_Omega]

so our response should be, "oh well, that happens to a lot of people. life sucks" ?? i say HECK no! we shouldn't just accept it, we need to fight, and do whatever we can to help the uninformed masses to acknowledge dominance and submissiveness as natural identities, and D/s as a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. in my own small way, it's what i try to do everyday. we can't just throw it in, ya know?

No your response should not be "well, this is about D/s!" because it isn't. You keep picking up on side issues, things that happen because of one aspect of someone's personality, and you frame it as a D/s issue, or misunderstanding or prejudice.

Bisexuality is a sexual orientation. D/s is another orientation, often in the same person. Or not. And your inability to create boundaries when you were young-- had nothing to do with your sexual orientation.

Depression is a serious malady. It doesn't matter if you're submissive, dominant, or totally vanilla. Not responding to therapy or drugs makes it even more serious. Again, your submissive nature is a side issue. I know vanilla people who are in the same boat.


But i think you and Velvetsin are actually agreeing on the subject of children. If I'm right-- both of you are saying that, while kids may know a little bit (or even quite a bit) about the parent's dynamics, they should never, ever witness the particulars.

Velvetsin was talking about a man who calls himself Dominant and dominates his children in the same ways he dominates their mother. yessno?

 

[VelvetSin]

Velvetsin was talking about a man who calls himself Dominant and dominates his children in the same ways he dominates their mother. yessno?

Yes. As in, using his sexual orientation as an excuse for being a domineering asshole. The only paper evidence someone may be able to provide a court would be the self-admitted sexual nature. If it works in the best interests of a child, anything is up for grabs in my opinion. Most courts aren't stupid and recognize if someone tries to throw in evidence that is clearly just hateful fuel of one parent against another without real or valid evidence. Courts may be slow, and people in those courts may make mistakes. I'm not saying the judicial system is infallible. I've been on the wrong end of that, and while I won't provide details I can see the argument. But even with that experience, I see and recognize that the system itself works far more often than it doesn't.

ETA: I'm sure that self-proclaimed Dominant would find the court system infinitely unfair. Oh well.

 

[ownedsubgal]

But i think you and Velvetsin are actually agreeing on the subject of children. If I'm right-- both of you are saying that, while kids may know a little bit (or even quite a bit) about the parent's dynamics, they should never, ever witness the particulars.

Velvetsin was talking about a man who calls himself Dominant and dominates his children in the same ways he dominates their mother. yessno?

actually the way she worded it, i wasn't completely clear on what she meant. she described a man being very controlling over the lives of his family...well, there are a lot of folks who think that's exactly the way you're supposed to raise a family and run a household. my personal opinion...it depends. *shrug*

if D/s encompasses your general way of life, just as if a particular religion encompasses your general way of life, then there is no way you can...or should, imo...hide "the particulars" from the children in the household. they will see that Dad has the final say, that mom is always obedient to him, etc. in some cases the Dominant partner may even be the sole disciplinarian. obviously one way or another this is a powerful influence on children, which is why i can't say that children have absolutely nothing to do with a D/s relationship. of course, that doesn't equate to them actually being assigned "roles" within that relationship...it goes without saying, that would be crazily inappropriate.

 

[ownedsubgal]

and...i just have to clear something up right now...i am NOT 30 yet, dangit!!!


whew. okay, done now.

 

[intothewoods]

This is one of those where do you draw the line arguments. We protect religious freedom in this country. You have the right to raise your kids in whatever belief system you want. And if you want to raise your kid a vegetarian, you may. But some "lifestyles" are beyond the pale of what society accepts. It's a complicated issue but the relevant question for me personally is - do the parent's life choices intrinsically cause any harm?

 

[VelvetSin]

This is one of those where do you draw the line arguments. We protect religious freedom in this country. You have the right to raise your kids in whatever belief system you want. And if you want to raise your kid a vegetarian, you may. But some "lifestyles" are beyond the pale of what society accepts. It's a complicated issue but the relevant question for me personally is - do the parent's life choices intrinsically cause any harm?

This is exactly the question I've been pondering for the last thirty minutes or so since the conversation took that turn, and I'm not sure how to put thoughts into words but I'll give it a shot.

The best I can do is say that sexuality or sexual orientation is an adult decision and should never involve children in any way. Like I said, awareness of and minor exposure to something is different from involvement, and witnessing anything more than the most basics of the dynamic constitutes involvement to me. My hurdle in framing that into words since we're referring to Dominance or submission an orientation like gay or hetero, is that I would never say a gay couple could not raise a child just as well as a hetero couple, so where is that particular line from one orientation to another? In my eyes, short of an occasional kiss in front of the kids, gay or hetero, the sexuality would not be exposed to them. They would be aware it exists just by the gender of the parents in the picture but that's as far as their exposure to the sexual orientation of their parents really should go. When it comes to D/s, it's much harder to distinguish where the bedroom ends and the rest of life begins.

And if adults involved in that dynamic have a hard time distinguishing whether a particular D/s relationship is abusive, how would a child be able to recognize the difference? I think parents in a D/s relationship would need to be very careful what the children see, else assumptions could form that may create a harmful pattern later in life. From what I've seen and heard, most parents in a D/s dynamic are ridiculously careful about that.

 

[Soumis]

This is one of those where do you draw the line arguments. We protect religious freedom in this country. You have the right to raise your kids in whatever belief system you want. And if you want to raise your kid a vegetarian, you may. But some "lifestyles" are beyond the pale of what society accepts. It's a complicated issue but the relevant question for me personally is - do the parent's life choices intrinsically cause any harm?

To me the children argument comes down to consent and education. I think that a bdsm relationship requires consenting partners, otherwise it's abuse. Children legally are unable to consent, therefore exposure to the particulars of the relationship or to be forced to function within a certain dynamic (submissive or dominant) is unacceptable.

I think it's also a parents responsibility to give their children an upbringing that demonstrates equal respect for all parties regardless of situation, and I think that would be difficult if not impossible to teach a child who witnesses bdsm. I think that by the time a child was able to understand the choices that led to the power exchange, years of watching one parent on top would have ingrained a unhealthy attitude toward a person's inherent worth.

Mind you, I don't limit this concern to bdsm folks, there are plenty of vanilla relationships out there that pass along a similar message of power exchange. I don't think a child could tell the difference between consensual and non, so whether it's bdsm or not doesn't matter. They see power exchange either way.

 

[VelvetSin]

To me the children argument comes down to consent and education. I think that a bdsm relationship requires consenting partners, otherwise it's abuse. Children legally are unable to consent, therefore exposure to the particulars of the relationship or to be forced to function within a certain dynamic (submissive or dominant) is unacceptable.

I think it's also a parents responsibility to give their children an upbringing that demonstrates equal respect for all parties regardless of situation, and I think that would be difficult if not impossible to teach a child who witnesses bdsm. I think that by the time a child was able to understand the choices that led to the power exchange, years of watching one parent on top would have ingrained a unhealthy attitude toward a person's inherent worth.

Mind you, I don't limit this concern to bdsm folks, there are plenty of vanilla relationships out there that pass along a similar message of power exchange. I don't think a child could tell the difference between consensual and non, so whether it's bdsm or not doesn't matter. They see power exchange either way.

This. Much better said than mine.

The parents I know that participate in BDSM limit themselves and their dynamic, even if they identify down to their bones so the children see nothing of it. They go out of their way to appear as equal partners, and big decisions are made away from the eyes and ears of the kids. The well-being of the children and what they witness is taken into consideration to such degree that I think most BDSM-oriented parents are better than most "vanilla" couples I know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This. Much better said than mine.

The parents I know that participate in BDSM limit themselves and their dynamic, even if they identify down to their bones so the children see nothing of it. They go out of their way to appear as equal partners, and big decisions are made away from the eyes and ears of the kids. The well-being of the children and what they witness is taken into consideration to such degree that I think most BDSM-oriented parents are better than most "vanilla" couples I know.

Damn straight.

I'll tell you-- if some young man had been raised in the absolute knowledge that his mother was owned by his father? I would not want him dating my daughter.

But then I feel that way about strongly religious upbringings as well.

 

[Soumis]

This. Much better said than mine.

The parents I know that participate in BDSM limit themselves and their dynamic, even if they identify down to their bones so the children see nothing of it. They go out of their way to appear as equal partners, and big decisions are made away from the eyes and ears of the kids. The well-being of the children and what they witness is taken into consideration to such degree that I think most BDSM-oriented parents are better than most "vanilla" couples I know.

Thanks. I feel like I've noticed this trend among bdsm parents, especially of little ones, but I wasn't sure whether it was it was limited to my sample size.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This. Much better said than mine.

The parents I know that participate in BDSM limit themselves and their dynamic, even if they identify down to their bones so the children see nothing of it. They go out of their way to appear as equal partners, and big decisions are made away from the eyes and ears of the kids. The well-being of the children and what they witness is taken into consideration to such degree that I think most BDSM-oriented parents are better than most "vanilla" couples I know.

well this is an issue which has been discussed and debated many times on this board and elsewhere. imo it comes down to the difference between one's sex life and one's greater life. if two parents engage in BDSM activities, and have some topping/bottoming limited to their erotic life, then of course children have nothing to do with that. but if D/s is a reflection of your personality and overall way of life, then i actually think it would be unhealthy to attempt to hide that from a child. you are basically sending the message that there is something shameful and negative about who you are and what you believe in. to once again use the analogy of religion...if a parent is a devout Christian, should they only read their bible behind closed doors? only pray in private? refrain from openly acknowledging all holidays?

my Master's son has grown up in a M/s household for most of his life. i am not and never have been a parental or authority figure to him, but he has still grown to respect me. and heck, we love each other. there were a few minor hurdles to overcome when he reached adolescence and began comparing his household to others, and testing boundaries in that irritating adolescent way...but nothing particularly dramatic. and most importantly he has grown up in a supportive, loving household. it was explained to him when he was old enough to understand, that the way we live is our choice and not necessarily right for everyone else. he certainly doesn't believe that all women should be submissive, or that he should grow up to be the Boss like Dad. with a good responsible parent and a loving dynamic as an everyday example, these things just don't have to be the big issues many folks make them out to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

actually the way she worded it, i wasn't completely clear on what she meant. she described a man being very controlling over the lives of his family...well, there are a lot of folks who think that's exactly the way you're supposed to raise a family and run a household. my personal opinion...it depends. *shrug*

There is a significant difference of opinion on that. And almost nobody thinks that man should be allowed to starve and beat his wife. much less his children.

if D/s encompasses your general way of life, just as if a particular religion encompasses your general way of life, then there is no way you can...or should, imo...hide "the particulars" from the children in the household. they will see that Dad has the final say, that mom is always obedient to him, etc. in some cases the Dominant partner may even be the sole disciplinarian. obviously one way or another this is a powerful influence on children, which is why i can't say that children have absolutely nothing to do with a D/s relationship. of course, that doesn't equate to them actually being assigned "roles" within that relationship...it goes without saying, that would be crazily inappropriate.

One of the roles that all children are assigned, by default, is that of witness.

Does daddy ever pull Mommy over his knee and whap her on the ass in front of the kids?

Does she ever get sent to her room, dismissed from daddy's presence, in front of them?

Do her children ever see her limping, see bruises, see her sporting a black eye?

Do you really think children can't draw their own conclusions?

he certainly doesn't believe that all women should be submissive, or that he should grow up to be the Boss like Dad. with a good responsible parent and a loving dynamic as an everyday example, these things just don't have to be the big issues many folks make them out to be.

I guess you do believe that children are deaf dumb and blind.

 

[ownedsubgal]

There is a significant difference of opinion on that. And almost nobody thinks that man should be allowed to starve and beat his wife. much less his children. One of the roles that all children are assigned, by default, is that of witness.

Does daddy ever pull Mommy over his knee and whap her on the ass in front of the kids?

Does she ever get sent to her room, dismissed from daddy's presence, in front of them?

Do her children ever see her limping, see bruises, see her sporting a black eye?

Do you really think children can't draw their own conclusions?

of course they can, and do. children should never be witness to anything inappropriate, but your idea of what's inappropriate very likely differs from mine or Daddy's.

where most of us can agree...no sexual exchange of any kind in front of the kids (duh); no discipline or punishment, physical or not, administered in front of the kids. and no, kids shouldn't see black eyes or other injuries administered by one partner to the other (that's about the only time i wear make-up). beyond that it's debatable. things like verbal reprimands or asking permission can be handled in front of children in a responsible manner. likewise, little everyday rituals like who eats first or who sits where, are not a big deal. the critical thing is maintaining an atmosphere of mutual respect and appreciation, imo.

 

[teknight]

. with a good responsible parent and a loving dynamic as an everyday example, these things just don't have to be the big issues many folks make them out to be.

Bastard majority- caring about its safety and well being and imposing their silly notions on the rest. If that doesn't call for a revolution, I don't know what does.

Yes, but is the parent good and is the dynamic loving and responsible?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I guess you do believe that children are deaf dumb and blind.

um, huh? perhaps it's difficult for you to believe that my Master does not believe in forcing his chosen way of life on his child, but that is the case nonetheless. he encourages him to be himself, to express himself freely and have confidence in that. he emphasizes the importance of being your own man. and i have to say, every year i am more and more impressed with the man he is becoming. he's not dominant, but he's definitely a confident and self-assured free thinker. the two of us have the most interesting debates.

 

[teknight]

um, huh? perhaps it's difficult for you to believe that my Master does not believe in forcing his chosen way of life on his child, but that is the case nonetheless. he encourages him to be himself, to express himself freely and have confidence in that. he emphasizes the importance of being your own man. and i have to say, every year i am more and more impressed with the man he is becoming. he's not dominant, but he's definitely a confident and self-assured free thinker. the two of us have the most interesting debates.

I'm guessing what Stella wants to say is that you grow up in your parents' shadows, to an extent, and learn how to behave from them. Ultimately what matters is how you behave in front of the kid, not what you tell them.

 

[Stella_Omega]

of course they can, and do. children should never be witness to anything inappropriate, but your idea of what's inappropriate very likely differs from mine or Daddy's.

where most of us can agree...no sexual exchange of any kind in front of the kids (duh); no discipline or punishment, physical or not, administered in front of the kids. and no, kids shouldn't see black eyes or other injuries administered by one partner to the other (that's about the only time i wear make-up). beyond that it's debatable. things like verbal reprimands or asking permission can be handled in front of children in a responsible manner. likewise, little everyday rituals like who eats first or who sits where, are not a big deal. the critical thing is maintaining an atmosphere of mutual respect and appreciation, imo.

Because nothing says mutual respect like body makeup and verbal reprimands...

Please, folks, if really feel you must live 24/7 slave/master? Do it childless. It is NOT fair to the kids. They do not have a choice. And, unlike Christian families, the local community will not understand that mommy and daddy really do love each other. There won't be a support group, a tribe, for your kids. You are isolating them, making them keep secrets. Don't delude yourself.

 

[myass_yourhand]

The BDSM community is a product of the same society as vanilla people come from. We are very aware of the mores and standards of the general society, and very anxious to remove ourselves from the spectre of domestic abuse, and couples like ownedsubgal and her daddy are probably too much like for comfort.

There are very good reasons why we talk about rope bondage, cellpopping, floggers, ritualised humiliation-- and avoid black eyes, belittling our spouses, and broken arms.

I can't give this enough thumbs up. Most of the people close to me are very accepting of my masochistic/subly tendencies, but every once in a while I run into someone new that I try to explain my kink to and they immediately associate it with abuse or some mental defect of my own. I've noticed that many 'lifestylers' go out of their way (indeed, more than a lot of vanilla folks I know) to make sure their significant other is safe and in a happy place with their relationship. It seems to me that a lot of us kinky freaks are better at communicating...but maybe that's just me playing favorites with the kinksters.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm guessing what Stella wants to say is that you grow up in your parents' shadows, to an extent, and learn how to behave from them. Ultimately what matters is how you behave in front of the kid, not what you tell them.

it ALL matters. your words, your actions, the sum total of the content of your character and convictions...this is common sense stuff, no? as has been stated ad nauseum, the minor in our care is not witness to any inappropriate behaviors or interactions between his father and i.

and Stella, please. you know by now that my Master and i do not identify as BDSM. but even your average strictly BDSM bottom with kids has had to use make-up, clothing, or whatever else necessary to cover a mark or bruise at some point. that's hardly remarkable. i'm rarely bruised any place clothing can't hide, but if it happens i'm prepared.

 

[sb2009]

ok....so....the general public, health care professionals, law enforcement, etc should ignore physical evidence of a D/s even when it's right in front of thier noses, but the kids won't notice it becuase it's not noticable?

And actually, as a parent, I know that what I DO has a fuck-ton more weight than what I say...actually, any parent knows that.

I've thought about this a lot, especially since I began my research into whatever it is we do. And it just comes to kids being more important than *anyone* getting thier kicks. And yes, I will say that Daddy giving you a black eye or starving you or whatever comes to to kicks for him. Just like I sure as hell would love to laze around all day reading and eating chocolate, but they need certain things in thier lives, and a mom who isn't doing that is crap.

I know we've talked about this before and you do firmly believe that your step-son has not absorbed any of your dynamic. I just don't know. I know my kids, even as young as they are, have absorbed some habits from us that cause a bit of trouble outside the house - they are pretty sarcastic, for one. It takes a bit of time for a teacher to get used to my oldest and understand her way of joking around, and has resulted in her being reprimanded. That's minor and she just has to learn to curb her tongue and she'll get alone fine with the outside world.

So while my jury may be slightly out on this, I don't really think that children raised in a household where one person is property, and it's so prevalant that it's part of every action, can not absorb those values.

And like Stella said, I wouldn't want a girl or boy like that dating my daughters. I'm pretty sure the oldest would cause the poor kid some permanent mental damage once she got wind of the idea she was supposed to be property, anyway.

 

[Rosie_Riveter]

I remember ownedsubgal posting about the son's behavior (walking in on her dressing or showering, repeatedly) and it wasn't the normal adolescent stuff. It really bothered me that no one else seemed to be bothered.

I can kind of get my head around OSG's life being okay for OSG but man the stuff with the kid creeps me out.

 

[KoPilot]

And actually, as a parent, I know that what I DO has a fuck-ton more weight than what I say...actually, any parent knows that.

-pops in-

If you're a parent that leads by "do as I say, not as I do", your kid will probably resent you for being a hypocritical liar, rather than resent you for being a "weirdo". Children are extremely sensitive to their environments and how the people around them interact (more than most adults give them credit for); couple that with their tendency to internalize things that make them feel uncomfortable, nervous, or scared, and you've got yourself a nice little wreck. If they're disturbed by their parent's behavior, their parents are the last damn people they're going to go to talk about it with. In fact, they might not even talk to anyone about it.

The only reason I was able to communicate my depression and anxieties while living in a household with an abusive step-father was because my entire family knew about it anyways. That, and my own dad read my diary and found out I wanted to kill myself at the age of 9 because of it.

So yes, I believe D/s dynamics should be hidden from the children COMPLETELY.