Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[intothewoods]

Because nothing says mutual respect like body makeup and verbal reprimands...

Please, folks, if really feel you must live 24/7 slave/master? Do it childless. It is NOT fair to the kids. They do not have a choice. And, unlike Christian families, the local community will not understand that mommy and daddy really do love each other. There won't be a support group, a tribe, for your kids. You are isolating them, making them keep secrets. Don't delude yourself.

That's an excellent, excellent point. It reminds me of the show Big Love. I don't think it's fair to force your kids to keep your secrets. And the point about community support is also huge. Most kids will feel like their family is weird at some point. Growing up as a member of a religious minority, I often felt like a big weirdo. Feeling like you're a part of something bigger than yourself really makes a difference. And finding your tribe is always important. You know, if you're going to raise your kids as vegans in a hut with no TV, you might want to move somewhere a bit crunchier than the middle of the bible belt.

 

[eastern sun]

Please, folks, if really feel you must live 24/7 slave/master? Do it childless. It is NOT fair to the kids. They do not have a choice. And, unlike Christian families, the local community will not understand that mommy and daddy really do love each other. There won't be a support group, a tribe, for your kids. You are isolating them, making them keep secrets. Don't delude yourself.

You have strong opinions, no doubt founded in reasonable thinking, but I don't agree that you must be childless to live a 24/7 M/s relationship. And I have thought a lot about the effect of my sexuality on my children.

Why are the children raised by M/s parents in a different situation than those raised by two moms or two dads?

It is not the sexuality of the parents that is the problem, in my opinion. It is emotional instability, obsessiveness, neglect, chemical dependency and/or threats of violence that cause harm, and I don't believe those are inherent qualities of M/s dynamics.

 

[intothewoods]

You have strong opinions, no doubt founded in reasonable thinking, but I don't agree that you must be childless to live a 24/7 M/s relationship. And I have thought a lot about the effect of my sexuality on my children.

Why are the children raised by M/s parents in a different situation than those raised by two moms or two dads?

It is not the sexuality of the parents that is the problem, in my opinion. It is emotional instability, obsessiveness, neglect, chemical dependency and/or threats of violence that cause harm, and I don't believe those are inherent qualities of M/s dynamics.

I think that's a really good question. It's hard to hide that you have two dads at back to school night. How you fuck is really a private matter. I don't need to know the details of how a gay couple gets off any more than I need to know the details of how a straight couple does their thing. But that's the easy part. There are power dynamics in many relationships that are not bdsm. I'm not necessarily comfortable with those either but it's true that my discomfort is not with something inherent to M/s. I think many of us draw our comfort line in different places, but for me it just doesn't feel right for the power exchange not to be private. It's fair to say that the intensity of ours ebbs and flows, but I don't think it's that hard to keep those dynamics to yourself. I mean, does one really need to kneel at his or her feet when the kids are up? If you're responsible for cleaning and cooking, then you just do it without having to tell your kid, I'm daddy's property!

 

[JMohegan]

I think that's a really good question. It's hard to hide that you have two dads at back to school night. How you fuck is really a private matter. I don't need to know the details of how a gay couple gets off any more than I need to know the details of how a straight couple does their thing. But that's the easy part. There are power dynamics in many relationships that are not bdsm. I'm not necessarily comfortable with those either but it's true that my discomfort is not with something inherent to M/s. I think many of us draw our comfort line in different places, but for me it just doesn't feel right for the power exchange not to be private. It's fair to say that the intensity of ours ebbs and flows, but I don't think it's that hard to keep those dynamics to yourself. I mean, does one really need to kneel at his or her feet when the kids are up? If you're responsible for cleaning and cooking, then you just do it without having to tell your kid, I'm daddy's property!

There are power dynamics in EVERY relationship. Some more or less egalitarian, others skewed. Some skewed one way when it comes to kids & household, another way when it comes to finances. Etc.

Every kid knows exactly where the power lines are in his/her household. And any labels the parents slap on themselves are totally irrelevant to that perception.

Some "slaves" have their "masters" wrapped around their little fingers. Kids know that. Other "slaves" in "totally consensual D/s relationships" are being abused by their "masters." Kids know that, too. Whether labels have been embraced and discussed openly, or not - kids know what the reality is.

I'm not talking about how people fuck. I'm talking about how people decide who's doing which chores and when, how a kid should be disciplined in response to unpredictable incidents, where the family's going on vacation, how the parents' schedules re work, volunteering, and time with outside family and friends can be meshed, what pet should the family own, and so on. You know, life. The plain fact is that you can't hide life, and how you really live it, from the kids.

 

[JMohegan]

-pops in-

If you're a parent that leads by "do as I say, not as I do", your kid will probably resent you for being a hypocritical liar, rather than resent you for being a "weirdo". Children are extremely sensitive to their environments and how the people around them interact (more than most adults give them credit for); couple that with their tendency to internalize things that make them feel uncomfortable, nervous, or scared, and you've got yourself a nice little wreck. If they're disturbed by their parent's behavior, their parents are the last damn people they're going to go to talk about it with. In fact, they might not even talk to anyone about it.

The only reason I was able to communicate my depression and anxieties while living in a household with an abusive step-father was because my entire family knew about it anyways. That, and my own dad read my diary and found out I wanted to kill myself at the age of 9 because of it.

So yes, I believe D/s dynamics should be hidden from the children COMPLETELY.

I agree with your first point, about kids being sensitive to their environments. But I disagree that non-bedroom D/s dynamics can be hidden, precisely because of that first point.

Your step-father was traumatizing (and understandably so) because he was abusive, right? That's not the same thing as simply having the power dynamic skewed in his favor. The two could coincide, but don't necessarily.

 

[ownedsubgal]

ok....so....the general public, health care professionals, law enforcement, etc should ignore physical evidence of a D/s even when it's right in front of thier noses, but the kids won't notice it becuase it's not noticable?

no...first, i have no idea what you mean by "physical evidence of D/s."

but the point is we aren't hiding anything beyond those things which are blatantly inappropriate. we do not in any way hide who we are or what we believe, or the nature of the power "exchange" in our relationship. imo, that would be incredibly screwed up, and make for a really confusing and hypocritical message for any child. how on earth would you go about hiding your life from your kids....and why on earth would you even want to try?

there is nothing wrong with D/s, or M/s. there is nothing wrong with a loving adult relationship which is not egalitarian. and the reality is, as has been mentioned, power dynamics exist in every relationship. many kids grow up in households where the parents are constantly battling for control and authority...it could come out in little things like the kid asks to go someplace and dad says yes, mom says no. personally i think it's a heck of a lot healthier when everyone is on the same page...whether it's because mom and dad happen to always agree (haha!) or because it's understood that one parent is the primary figure of authority.

And actually, as a parent, I know that what I DO has a fuck-ton more weight than what I say...actually, any parent knows that.

on that we all agree. there is no inconsistency between what we say, and what we do (or what we believe), in this household.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I mean, does one really need to kneel at his or her feet when the kids are up? If you're responsible for cleaning and cooking, then you just do it without having to tell your kid, I'm daddy's property!

a kid will eventually notice that one parent always does the cooking and cleaning. they'll eventually notice that one parent always tells the other what to do, while the other parent always asks. "get the groceries," vs. "could you help me with the groceries?" and there are all the little mundane things that make up life...who do they ask for money? who do they ask for permission to have a friend over for the night? and when they screw up, who has the authority to discipline them?

t. knows he can come to me when he needs help with homework, when he wants a special snack prepared, when he wants to go outside for a couple of hours after school, when he has teenage drama, etc. he knows he can't come to me for money or for permission to go on a field trip. and he knows that if he screws up he has nothing to fear from me. in fact if it's not too bad he can usually count on me to help smooth things over for him with "The Boss."

 

[ownedsubgal]

I remember ownedsubgal posting about the son's behavior (walking in on her dressing or showering, repeatedly) and it wasn't the normal adolescent stuff. It really bothered me that no one else seemed to be bothered.

it was the normal adolescent stuff, at least from everyone i've talked to since who was a 13 yr old boy or in the vicinity of one day in and day out. apparently, some boys that age will even walk in on their own sisters...shocked me as an only child and non-parent, but yeah, normal. also i am much younger than my Master, fewer years separate the kid and i than his Dad and i.

thankfully, they don't stay 13 forever!

 

[intothewoods]

There are power dynamics in EVERY relationship. Some more or less egalitarian, others skewed. Some skewed one way when it comes to kids & household, another way when it comes to finances. Etc.

Every kid knows exactly where the power lines are in his/her household. And any labels the parents slap on themselves are totally irrelevant to that perception.

Some "slaves" have their "masters" wrapped around their little fingers. Kids know that. Other "slaves" in "totally consensual D/s relationships" are being abused by their "masters." Kids know that, too. Whether labels have been embraced and discussed openly, or not - kids know what the reality is.

I'm not talking about how people fuck. I'm talking about how people decide who's doing which chores and when, how a kid should be disciplined in response to unpredictable incidents, where the family's going on vacation, how the parents' schedules re work, volunteering, and time with outside family and friends can be meshed, what pet should the family own, and so on. You know, life. The plain fact is that you can't hide life, and how you really live it, from the kids.

No, you can't hide life, but you don't need to share how every decision was reached with your kids. Parents can have privacy. But the devil is really in the details. I'm not necessarily troubled by a household where one parent makes the decisions, but I definitely don't think a kid should learn about bdsm labels from his or her parents, irrelevant or not.

Some things trigger my ick-no sensors and some things don't. I think the overall level of happiness and stability is huge. If the arrangement works well, then that seems more preferable to me than an egalitarian household where the two parents totally disagree on everything to do with parenting. My parents must have been pretty egalitarian, because I can't really remember who was really the decision-maker on a lot of the things you list above. Definitely they had different styles and one was more hands-on than the other, but I don't remember feeling like one was the bottom line.

My broad opinion is that a wide variety of parenting styles and households work just fine, but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable operating that way. We have a lot of conversations just the two of us to hash stuff out and make sure we're on the same page (even if not on the same sentence), and if he puts his foot down on something, then that's that. As far as parenting decisions go, we probably work that stuff out in an egalitarian way. That's probably an area I just can't cede control in. Now that I think of it, Mister Man is really more lax than I am when it comes to discipline. So maybe that helps me avoid any discomfort or fears I would have over stereotypical big bad asshole (literal) daddy doms. But we can have a lot of conversations by ourselves. You know, instant messaging is really a godsend.

 

[intothewoods]

a kid will eventually notice that one parent always does the cooking and cleaning. they'll eventually notice that one parent always tells the other what to do, while the other parent always asks. "get the groceries," vs. "could you help me with the groceries?" and there are all the little mundane things that make up life...who do they ask for money? who do they ask for permission to have a friend over for the night? and when they screw up, who has the authority to discipline them?

t. knows he can come to me when he needs help with homework, when he wants a special snack prepared, when he wants to go outside for a couple of hours after school, when he has teenage drama, etc. he knows he can't come to me for money or for permission to go on a field trip. and he knows that if he screws up he has nothing to fear from me. in fact if it's not too bad he can usually count on me to help smooth things over for him with "The Boss."

Sorry, you posted while I was preparing my reply, which took forever and I'll probably have to step away from this site for the rest of today! Y'all are distracting me.

Yes, a kid will notice these things. And yes, I'm more comfortable with an arrangement like, PYL sets out the rules but pyl parent is empowered to enforce them. We all speak politely to each other in my house, regardless of who is in charge. I'm not on a mission to remove kids from M/s households, but I understand Stella's feelings when she says she wouldn't want her son dating a woman who was raised in that kind of household. Obviously it would depend on the girl, but if the girl thought that this was the way things should be....yeah, I wouldn't be comfortable.

Also, we share household duties because we both work. If I was a stay at home parent, I would do most if not everything and I would explain it accordingly. I'll be honest though - it is one reason I continue working. I am a feminist and it is something I think about. I like that my son sees both parents taking care of these things. Again, plenty of households do things differently, and that's fine, but I'm talking about how I parent.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You have strong opinions, no doubt founded in reasonable thinking, but I don't agree that you must be childless to live a 24/7 M/s relationship. And I have thought a lot about the effect of my sexuality on my children.

Why are the children raised by M/s parents in a different situation than those raised by two moms or two dads?

It is not the sexuality of the parents that is the problem, in my opinion. It is emotional instability, obsessiveness, neglect, chemical dependency and/or threats of violence that cause harm, and I don't believe those are inherent qualities of M/s dynamics.

Because two daddies or two mommies are normative in other ways, ones that really count. That's been the point of the gay marriage rights movement.

I have fought for fifty years now, for the right of autonomy-- for women, for racial minorities, for LGBT. those rights are political, but they are expressed in the personal sphere. a 24/7 slave has no autonomy. That slave may also be, by sheer coincidence, a woman.

Sally has two parents, male, female, or the regular combo, both of whom love each other, bicker at times, take turns taking the trash to the alley. They both (hopefully in this economy) have jobs at which they are competent. You know, stuff like that.

ownedsubgal's kid has a daddy and a slave. His stepmother might not be his slave, but she is not her own woman. What's the kid going to internalize? He doesn't have a free woman in his life. (and it's suddenly struck me, I REALLY wonder how the hell a daughter would have dealt in this family, holy shit.)

I'm not talking about how people fuck. I'm talking about how people decide who's doing which chores and when, how a kid should be disciplined in response to unpredictable incidents, where the family's going on vacation, how the parents' schedules re work, volunteering, and time with outside family and friends can be meshed, what pet should the family own, and so on. You know, life. The plain fact is that you can't hide life, and how you really live it, from the kids.

This. Verbal reprimands, instant obedience, no negotiation... these are messages, as clear as so many bells, that one half of the parental team is not like the other. And if the one that isn't like the other is also female, women lose a little ground once more. Because a kid formulates his universalities from the specifics around him.

If you're responsible for cleaning and cooking, then you just do it without having to tell your kid, I'm daddy's property!

And if some of your regular chores need to be shifted elsewhere for some reason, what happens? Does your master ever help you do your chores? because in egalitarian households, this can sometimes happen, and seeing that adults can negotiate and be flexible is a very important lesson for our children.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Also, we share household duties because we both work. If I was a stay at home parent, I would do most if not everything and I would explain it accordingly. I'll be honest though - it is one reason I continue working. I am a feminist and it is something I think about. I like that my son sees both parents taking care of these things. Again, plenty of households do things differently, and that's fine, but I'm talking about how I parent.

that is really interesting, that a part of your decision to work outside the home (because being a homemaker 24/7 is absolutely WORK! lol) is based on your desire to portray a certain image to your child. i can understand that, especially considering you are a feminist. but are you also sending the message that it's perfectly okay for a woman to choose to be a homemaker? that it's challenging, purposeful work, that's it not "less than" doing something that brings in a paycheck? because i've seen how sometimes the conscious pushing by parents of one particular path leads to a lot of shame and invalidation for a child who turns out to be differently inclined.

that's why we don't push one way or the other. also as i said before it's also really important to Daddy that his son become his own man, not easily swayed by others or afraid to be different. and you can really see that in him, from how he dresses to his interests to his manner of speech...he's different and more significantly, he feels great about it.

when i was growing up, there was no clear head of household either. but my parents were very oppositional...sometimes i think intentionally. if one said yes, the other would say no. one was strict, one was laidback. when i got a C on a report card and needed it signed, my Dad would just sign and tell me to do better next time. my mother would sign then ground me for 2 weeks. i always wished my Dad would have stood up and took control, but he was just too easygoing. it sure would have made life a lot less confusing and stressful though.

 

[ownedsubgal]

ownedsubgal's kid has a daddy and a slave. His stepmother might not be his slave, but she is not her own woman. What's the kid going to internalize? He doesn't have a free woman in his life....


This. Verbal reprimands, instant obedience, no negotiation... these are messages, as clear as so many bells, that one half of the parental team is not like the other. And if the one that isn't like the other is also female, women lose a little ground once more. Because a kid formulates his universalities from the specifics around him.

And if some of your regular chores need to be shifted elsewhere for some reason, what happens? Does your master ever help you do your chores? because in egalitarian households, this can sometimes happen, and seeing that adults can negotiate and be flexible is a very important lesson for our children.

first, i'm not anyone's stepmother or parental figure of ANY kind...eep! secondly, i am far from the only woman my Master's son is regularly exposed to...he has a mother first of all, a single and very independent woman, and two wonderful grandmothers he sees frequently, and a slew of other female relatives and friends of the family. he understands that there are all kinds of women, and all kinds of lifestyles people live. he knows that i am the right kind of woman for his Dad...not, i am the right kind of woman, period.

but no, one of us is not like the other. and that's a GOOD thing, in our eyes. that's a positive message, that everyone has their own roles and purpose. people are not interchangeable, and it is with the union of our respective strengths and weaknesses that keeps the machine running strong.

does my Master ever do chores? if i'm away or seriously physically ill, yes of course. He was a single Dad before i came along, he's perfectly capable of keeping a household together. but it's absolutely understood that those things are my responsibility, my duty, just as it's understood that it's my Master's responsibility to pay the bills. we are not the same, and shouldn't pretend to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sounds like your mother would have been the better head of the household.

Would that have been okay with you, personally, as the child in the family?
(ETA)

Thanks for this response. It does reassure me that the kid isn't growing up in a total vacuum. And also, thank you for your honesty and willingness to answer all of these suspicions and naggings.

first, i'm not anyone's stepmother or parental figure of ANY kind...eep! secondly, i am far from the only woman my Master's son is regularly exposed to...he has a mother first of all, a single and very independent woman, and two wonderful grandmothers he sees frequently, and a slew of other female relatives and friends of the family. he understands that there are all kinds of women, and all kinds of lifestyles people live. he knows that i am the right kind of woman for his Dad...not, i am the right kind of woman, period.

but no, one of us is not like the other. and that's a GOOD thing, in our eyes. that's a positive message, that everyone has their own roles and purpose. people are not interchangeable, and it is with the union of our respective strengths and weaknesses that keeps the machine running strong.

does my Master ever do chores? if i'm away or seriously physically ill, yes of course. He was a single Dad before i came along, he's perfectly capable of keeping a household together. but it's absolutely understood that those things are my responsibility, my duty, just as it's understood that it's my Master's responsibility to pay the bills. we are not the same, and shouldn't pretend to be.

 

[Soumis]

I'm having a hard time articulating this, so bear with me.

I think that it's possible to live, most of the time, in power exchange relationship. The little things that osg describes like eating second, or sitting second, I think could be handled with enough care to not be obvious to anyone, even children. If you don't make a thing out of eating second, than people are not going to notice. I've never paid attention to who gets a bite in first, except when I knew those involved were in a power exchange relationship. My parents could have been doing that for years and I guarantee I wouldn't have noticed.

My concern is that I think it's important that parents demonstrate equal respect for a person's self worth in front of their children. And even though mommy or daddy might feel respected most by being in a pyl role, I think children are incapable of understanding the reasoning behind it, especially at an early age. If the pyl isn't allowed to make decisions or discipline than that is obvious to children. Again, I don't think this dynamic is limited to bdsm relationships. A child doesn't see, "my pyl parent gives up certain rights because they want to have that exchange in their relationship," they see, "my parent doesn't have equal rights." And that is dangerous to me.

What happens when a child sees bruises? We teach children that hurting others is wrong, yet expect them to understand, it's wrong unless they want to be hurt? I've heard the exact same words out of abusers. I'm not saying that bdsm folks are abusers. Merely that I don't expect a child to know the difference between violence and consensual violence.

I'll be honest, it's my opinion that this isn't a very wide spread problem in bdsm. Most people, regardless of label, still want to be treated with the respect in front of the non-consenting public, most of the time (including in front of children). I'm a big believer that people will treat you how you let them, and a person who others see being treated without respect, is inviting others to do the same. I get worried though, when people feel that maintaining a particular dynamic is more important than teaching children that all human life has equal worth. If my spouse, partner, pyl, PYL, dog, etc. doesn't have to treat me with respect, why should a child?

 

[Soumis]

first, i'm not anyone's stepmother or parental figure of ANY kind...eep!

I think that's impossible if you're living with his father. You may be abdicating that responsibility, but that doesn't mean you're any less part of the family dynamic. I can't decide if it's more concerning if his son sees you as a bad parent or as a good slave.

On second though, if you're coming off as a slave I have bigger concerns for the child's upbringing.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I get worried though, when people feel that maintaining a particular dynamic is more important than teaching children that all human life has equal worth. If my spouse, partner, pyl, PYL, dog, etc. doesn't have to treat me with respect, why should a child?

Soumis, i'm confused why you seem to believe that just because a person is a submissive or slave, they are not treated with respect or valued by their Dominant partner? you do not need to treat someone as an equal in order to respect them. a parent can respect a child, an employer can respect an employee. you can be acknowledged, appreciated, needed and greatly valued without being someone of equal status or authority.

in response to your last post, of course i am a part of the family dynamic...we ARE a family. my place in that family is just not one of parental authority. i am his Father's mate, and his friend. the most accurate description of our connection and relationship would be brother/older sister (but we don't use any labels). it's what came naturally for us, and what works for us.

 

[JMohegan]

No, you can't hide life, but you don't need to share how every decision was reached with your kids. Parents can have privacy. But the devil is really in the details. I'm not necessarily troubled by a household where one parent makes the decisions, but I definitely don't think a kid should learn about bdsm labels from his or her parents, irrelevant or not.

Some things trigger my ick-no sensors and some things don't. I think the overall level of happiness and stability is huge. If the arrangement works well, then that seems more preferable to me than an egalitarian household where the two parents totally disagree on everything to do with parenting. My parents must have been pretty egalitarian, because I can't really remember who was really the decision-maker on a lot of the things you list above. Definitely they had different styles and one was more hands-on than the other, but I don't remember feeling like one was the bottom line.

My broad opinion is that a wide variety of parenting styles and households work just fine, but that doesn't mean I'm comfortable operating that way. We have a lot of conversations just the two of us to hash stuff out and make sure we're on the same page (even if not on the same sentence), and if he puts his foot down on something, then that's that. As far as parenting decisions go, we probably work that stuff out in an egalitarian way. That's probably an area I just can't cede control in. Now that I think of it, Mister Man is really more lax than I am when it comes to discipline. So maybe that helps me avoid any discomfort or fears I would have over stereotypical big bad asshole (literal) daddy doms. But we can have a lot of conversations by ourselves. You know, instant messaging is really a godsend.

Of course, parents can have some privacy, and you don't need to share how every decision was reached with your kids. But so much of family life is lived spur-of-the-moment that I find the notion of some sort of ideal, involving private resolutions of all disputes and the perpetual appearance of a united front, to be totally unrealistic.

Lots of things trigger my "ick-no sensors." I'm not even interested in a relationship with an autonomy-less person without kids, much less in an environment where the adults are responsible for presenting healthy role models! But it's a free country, as they say. Lots of kids grow up with "ick", and worse. The regrettable fact is that there's very little that can be done about it.

Just to be clear, though (because there are overlapping discussions here), "ick" and living in a household with an abusive parent are two different things. Abuse is not okay, regardless of what labels the adults slap on themselves or what they say they consent to. And it's the responsibility of all adults who are aware of that abuse to get the kids out.

 

[intothewoods]

that is really interesting, that a part of your decision to work outside the home (because being a homemaker 24/7 is absolutely WORK! lol) is based on your desire to portray a certain image to your child. i can understand that, especially considering you are a feminist. but are you also sending the message that it's perfectly okay for a woman to choose to be a homemaker? that it's challenging, purposeful work, that's it not "less than" doing something that brings in a paycheck? because i've seen how sometimes the conscious pushing by parents of one particular path leads to a lot of shame and invalidation for a child who turns out to be differently inclined.

that's why we don't push one way or the other. also as i said before it's also really important to Daddy that his son become his own man, not easily swayed by others or afraid to be different. and you can really see that in him, from how he dresses to his interests to his manner of speech...he's different and more significantly, he feels great about it.

when i was growing up, there was no clear head of household either. but my parents were very oppositional...sometimes i think intentionally. if one said yes, the other would say no. one was strict, one was laidback. when i got a C on a report card and needed it signed, my Dad would just sign and tell me to do better next time. my mother would sign then ground me for 2 weeks. i always wished my Dad would have stood up and took control, but he was just too easygoing. it sure would have made life a lot less confusing and stressful though.

I don't know if it's portraying an image exactly, but that's me quibbling. As far as working inside the home goes, been there, done that and got the t-shirt. It's not one or the other for me, but that's another story. We also know and are friends with all different kinds of families, so I'm not worried about a lack of diversity there.

For the record, I don't think male-led M/s household will necessarily translate to a kid growing up to do the same. Kids do forge their own paths and are influenced by outside forces as well. I think the impact of environment is more nuanced than that.

My parents were the heads of household. And there wasn't a big divergence between the two. One was more strict, but it's not like the other was completely easy-going. I had a pretty good childhood and consider myself lucky.

<snip>

And if some of your regular chores need to be shifted elsewhere for some reason, what happens? Does your master ever help you do your chores? because in egalitarian households, this can sometimes happen, and seeing that adults can negotiate and be flexible is a very important lesson for our children.

Were you asking me, or putting that question to osg? We share household chores because we both work. And we negotiate and remake plans together all the time, mostly because it's our personalities.

Of course, parents can have some privacy, and you don't need to share how every decision was reached with your kids. But so much of family life is lived spur-of-the-moment that I find the notion of some sort of ideal, involving private resolutions of all disputes and the perpetual appearance of a united front, to be totally unrealistic.

No parent does that, and I'm not trying to say they do. I just think that there is adult-time conversation and family conversation and it's just normal for me. And I know I'm not the only parent I know who does this! It's not like I go into some super fake Stepford-wife mode or anything - obviously we have disagreements - but it's all in how it's handled. You know - I always joke about what my kid will end up complaining about in therapy when he's an adult. I don't want it to be my mother is a submissive.

Lots of things trigger my "ick-no sensors." I'm not even interested in a relationship with an autonomy-less person without kids, much less in an environment where the adults are responsible for presenting healthy role models! But it's a free country, as they say. Lots of kids grow up with "ick", and worse. The regrettable fact is that there's very little that can be done about it.

Just to be clear, though (because there are overlapping discussions here), "ick" and living in a household with an abusive parent are two different things. Abuse is not okay, regardless of what labels the adults slap on themselves or what they say they consent to. And it's the responsibility of all adults who are aware of that abuse to get the kids out.

I totally agree and tried to make that point as well. There's what falls within the category of - different strokes for different folks and then there's abuse. There are things I'm not down with in my home, but I don't feel compelled to call child protective services over.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think that's impossible if you're living with his father. You may be abdicating that responsibility, but that doesn't mean you're any less part of the family dynamic.

Actually, it is possible to not be seen as a step parent while still being part of the family dynamic. F chooses to not step in and be a stepfather to my son, which also suits my son fine as he has issues with the thought of fathers given his biological fathers lack of interest. If my son wants F's advice about something, he will ask him similar to how you would a good friend, if there is need for us to make a decision about something which involves all it is discussed by everyone and my son offers his thoughts, I offer mine if requested to, and F makes the decision. In terms of decisions directly involving my son, F prefers me to take care of it though he will offer his thoughts and advice, and at times actively become involved.

Catalina

 

[KoPilot]

I agree with your first point, about kids being sensitive to their environments. But I disagree that non-bedroom D/s dynamics can be hidden, precisely because of that first point.

Your step-father was traumatizing (and understandably so) because he was abusive, right? That's not the same thing as simply having the power dynamic skewed in his favor. The two could coincide, but don't necessarily.

Oh, there were many happy moments. Lots of hugging and kissing, lots of times when they professed their love to each other and assured me that everything was totally fine, and completely normal. I guess when you get down to brass tacks, it was only "abusive" about 5-10% of the time. And when it came to interaction with me, he was nothing short of an angel. And I STILL hated him.

The small things messed me up just as much as the big events. Ordering my mom around quietly but sternly, expressing his distaste for how she made dinner, doing whatever he wanted without informing her/us, deciding what our outings were, and the manner in which we would do them, etc.

If it was a consensual and loving relationship, then that was a love that I, as a child, could not understand. Isn't raising a kid about sacrificing your own wants to do what's best for them? What if a son or daughter actually had the cojones to approach a parent in an M/s dynamic and asked them to stop "being like that" with mommy or daddy because it made them feel uncomfortable?

 

[KoPilot]

I would also like to add that my dad's second marriage (now in its 10th year) seems to be operating with some kind of power-exchange as well, with my step-mother at the head of the house. And aside from her son being the subject of favoritism over the years (which caused different problems for me), I have no issue with what's going on because I was old enough to accept that it was what my dad wanted and what made him happy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, there were many happy moments. Lots of hugging and kissing, lots of times when they professed their love to each other and assured me that everything was totally fine, and completely normal. I guess when you get down to brass tacks, it was only "abusive" about 5-10% of the time. And when it came to interaction with me, he was nothing short of an angel. And I STILL hated him.

The small things messed me up just as much as the big events. Ordering my mom around quietly but sternly, expressing his distaste for how she made dinner, doing whatever he wanted without informing her/us, deciding what our outings were, and the manner in which we would do them, etc.

If it was a consensual and loving relationship, then that was a love that I, as a child, could not understand. Isn't raising a kid about sacrificing your own wants to do what's best for them? What if a son or daughter actually had the cojones to approach a parent in an M/s dynamic and asked them to stop "being like that" with mommy or daddy because it made them feel uncomfortable?

I just wanted to repeat these words.


ownedsubgal you cannot talk about "verbal reprimands and asking permission," and then claim that the kid has been protected from the D/s dynamic. I gotta call bullshit.

I am pretty disgusted, frankly. For all your self-flagellation about the Horrible Girl Kiss, you sure are rationalising away a lot of things that might impact what you want to do. I don't trust your assessment of the people around you, because of that.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I just wanted to repeat these words.


ownedsubgal you cannot talk about "verbal reprimands and asking permission," and then claim that the kid has been protected from the D/s dynamic. I gotta call bullshit.

I am pretty disgusted, frankly. For all your self-flagellation about the Horrible Girl Kiss, you sure are rationalising away a lot of things that might impact what you want to do. I don't trust your assessment of the people around you, because of that.

you don't need to trust my assessment of the people around me, you don't actually know me after all and we aren't a part of each others lives. but i don't know if i'm typing in cantonese or what, because people keep using phrases like "protected from the D/s dynamic," and "hiding the D/s," when i've never claimed that at all. my argument is just the opposite, that D/s is nothing that a child needs to be "protected" from. there is nothing wrong with it. it is not bad, dirty, wrong, etc. for some people it is a perfectly natural and successful relationship dynamic.

as for KoPilot, i wonder if perhaps your negative feelings toward your father had something to do with your own personal orientation. maybe it conflicts too strongly with how you personally view women and wish to treat them. but then you also mention that he was abusive toward your mother...in big ways and little ways. as a child that's something you shouldn't have been exposed to under any circumstances and i feel for you. but you should know that a Dom/sub power dynamic does not have to look like what you experienced as a child.

 

[Stella_Omega]

my argument is just the opposite, that D/s is nothing that a child needs to be "protected" from. there is nothing wrong with it. it is not bad, dirty, wrong, etc. for some people it is a perfectly natural and successful relationship dynamic.

quod erat demonstratum, damn.

Oookay, moving on...