Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[Stella_Omega]

KoPilot has said that the "bad stuff" was maybe 5% but it colored 100% of zir childhood and zir entire adult relationship with zir father.

 

[intothewoods]

I have to say, it makes me laugh a little when people say, I'll take shitty situation x over the hellhole I grew up in! Good grief, must those be our only choices? I know no one means this seriously but it does sound funny to me.

For those of you who are lifetime subs, how does your PYL show respect and love for you?

Serious question, honestly.

There are plenty of folks on this board that have provided examples of this over the years. I mean, romantic bdsm relationships are, at their core, just relationships.

As for me, gah, where do I start? He supports and believes in me, he is emotionally present in tough, tough situations that we've faced together, he speaks to others about me as a priority in his life, he cleans the kitty litter box when I can't (this should really be #1) ... etc etc. You know, things any romantic partner would do. Do you think that D/s or M/s relationships are devoid of mutual love and respect?

 

[intothewoods]

KoPilot has said that the "bad stuff" was maybe 5% but it colored 100% of zir childhood and zir entire adult relationship with zir father.

Let's break this down - are you saying that a power exchange relationship necessarily includes abuse -- physical or emotional -- that the children witness?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have to say, it makes me laugh a little when people say, I'll take shitty situation x over the hellhole I grew up in! Good grief, must those be our only choices? I know no one means this seriously but it does sound funny to me.



There are plenty of folks on this board that have provided examples of this over the years. I mean, romantic bdsm relationships are, at their core, just relationships.

As for me, gah, where do I start? He supports and believes in me, he is emotionally present in tough, tough situations that we've faced together, he speaks to others about me as a priority in his life, he cleans the kitty litter box when I can't (this should really be #1) ... etc etc. You know, things any romantic partner would do. Do you think that D/s or M/s relationships are devoid of mutual love and respect?

I would think that the unequal power balance has to influence the ways that love and respect get shown, yeah. The more one-way the power goes, the more differences I would expect. When I show love to my partners, I show it in a different way than I do to the cats. I respect the cats, for that matter-- but I hold them to different standards than I do the humans around me.

D/s is not really my thing, regardless of children! So osg's lifestyle has really gotten me wondering.

 

[eastern sun]

Let's say there was a forum member called "Badass Bob," who posted about how he met a barely legal female with a history of abuse and mental illness and offered her a life of M/s, which she accepted.

Over weeks and months of posting, he revealed that he's told her she has no right to leave; if she tried, he would track her down and kill her. He revealed that the s gets no physical pleasure from BDSM, and that he beat her brutally - sometimes for his own entertainment, sometimes as punishment. Occasionally, he has caused injuries, such as a dislocated shoulder, that sent her to the hospital. He also whores her out, for money, to men who sometimes use her brutally and occasionally impregnate her, at which times he takes her for abortions. He orders her to cut off contact with all prior family and friends, and convinces her that psychiatrists are bad, police are bad, and the system in general is grossly unfair because it persecutes people like them, who are just trying to live their own lifestyle - a lifestyle which is just a natural expression of who they are as individuals. The ultimate Us vs. Them. They should just be left alone to live their lives together, and raise their son.

If members of the forum posted criticism of Badass Bob, ES, would you respond with polite but pointed criticism of them?

In discussing "subsets of human sexuality," should we avoid condemnation altogether? Not only when reading posts by individuals whose situations bear marked resemblance to those of abuse victims, but when reading posts by those who sound like abusers as well?

I am not opposed to condemnation, I think everyone has a right to state their opinion and the reasons for it. But I do not like the way people gang up against others, and the increasingly strident tones that are used.

I also think, by switching the focus from the abused to the abuser, you significantly change the argument. Personally, I would use very different tones if I were speaking to someone who I thought was an abuser, than I would if I were speaking to someone who was abused.

Frankly, it has always seemed to me that if osg is, in fact, seeking abuse, she can find the same treatment from strangers here whenever she wants it.

 

[JMohegan]

KoPilot has said that the "bad stuff" was maybe 5% but it colored 100% of zir childhood and zir entire adult relationship with zir father.

Of course. If I had perceived my mother to be abused 1 hour out of every 20, I would have been borderline murderous. Consumed by rage at the perceived abuser, and rage at my own helplessness in being unable to protect her.

I have spent time with many boys who were plucked out of that type of situation, and that is always the response.

If we're talking about things from the child's perspective, then the child's perception is all that matters. Which is why I agree with you about the acorns, Stella. Swapping metaphors - if it waddles and quacks like a fucking duck, then it is totally unreasonable to assume that a child will perceive it as anything else just because an adult in the room calls it a butterfly.

However, Stella, you seem to be claiming that all self-described M/s or "lifetime sub" relationships would be perceived by a child in the same way. And on that point, I strongly disagree. While I believe that the power dynamic itself will be obvious to any children in the household, I do not believe that dynamic would necessarily be perceived by the child as abusive, or even mildly detrimental.

 

[eastern sun]

For those of you who are lifetime subs, how does your PYL show respect and love for you?

Serious question, honestly.

He supports me, providing bed and board, companionship, and sexual satisfaction. He listens to my concerns and weighs them seriously against his own interpretations of the situation. He believes that I should have opportunities to pursue my own interests, and actively encourages me and supports me in my efforts to do so. He stands by me when I'm frightened and insecure. He sings my praises when they're warranted, and supports my actions when they come under question (usually from me).

He has given me gifts, written me poetry, created artistic opportunity, learned how I like to be touched, told me I'm beautiful, the meal was good, the house looks great, the children seem happy, my ideas are good. He's given over all decision-making in certain areas, like house renovation, because he thinks I'm better at it and more interested in it than he is. He's even given me over to men I'm attracted to, so I would have the chance to experience them.

It's not that much different than other relationships, I would imagine, except for those periods when he isn't showing me the love and respect I might think I "deserve." Those periods occur in any long-term relationship due to a host of reasons; the difference in ours is that I simply don't demand that I get that kind of attention in order to be happy.

And then, again, sometimes I do tell him what I think I need.

 

[Soumis]

Side comment: maybe it's my own naiveté, but I don't see this argument as having the same hostility at the Beloved one. There have been some perhaps unnecessary comments by many (not excluding myself), but disagreement isn't always unhealthy.

 

[ownedsubgal]

For those of you who are lifetime subs, how does your PYL show respect and love for you?

Serious question, honestly.

He is always, always there for me. He stuck with me when my depression was at its worst and i was making his everyday life 24/7 hell...he used all of his personal resources, connections, and every spare moment trying to get me the right kind of professional help...he did endless research so he could better understand the demon i was fighting, took me to countless highly-recommended doctors, from psychiatrists to neurologists. and he was just patient, endlessly patient. suffering right there with me, and refusing to give up even when he had every right to and any normal man would have left long ago. and he showed me how to hope.

He continues to be there, and expresses his love and devotion everyday. even on the days when frankly, i don't deserve it. He shelters me from the big bad world which has always been too much for me. He praises me to anyone who will listen...relatives, co-workers, strangers on the internet...i know this because every time i come across someone who has spent more than 5 minutes talking to him, they have heard wonderful things about me. He made me a fixture in his family, which accepted me with open arms and are a huge part of my everyday life. while still in hospital recovering from a stroke, his father requested me at his bedside, took my hand on the side which was not paralyzed...lifted it to his mouth and kissed it. it was the very first time that i have felt, and known, i was part of a family.

what else is there? just everything. playing nurse not just when i'm sick, but when my clumsiness leaves me with yet another scratch or scrape. ironing my clothes (yes, he does ALL the ironing). doing his son's laundry so i won't be traumatized. getting me the world's most awesome birthday cake last year...strawberry shortcake with white chocolate frosting and like a hundred huge whole juicy fresh strawberries!! taking me to the Rennfair this past saturday, even though it's not his thing at all. telling me everyday that i'm beautiful. and making more personal sacrifices than i care to think about.

that's the short version.

 

[JMohegan]

I am not opposed to condemnation, I think everyone has a right to state their opinion and the reasons for it. But I do not like the way people gang up against others, and the increasingly strident tones that are used.

I also think, by switching the focus from the abused to the abuser, you significantly change the argument. Personally, I would use very different tones if I were speaking to someone who I thought was an abuser, than I would if I were speaking to someone who was abused.

I'd use different tones, too. I also use different tones when I think someone is lying, particularly if I reach the conclusion that the point of their fabricated bio is to come here and stir up shit.

As for the strident tones on this thread, what I'm seeing from many appears to be concern for a child. Someone who is not here to present his perspective, and someone about whom we only know one thing. That being: whatever situation he finds himself in, it is one to which he, as a child, could not have consented.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I have to say, it makes me laugh a little when people say, I'll take shitty situation x over the hellhole I grew up in! Good grief, must those be our only choices? I know no one means this seriously but it does sound funny to me.



There are plenty of folks on this board that have provided examples of this over the years. I mean, romantic bdsm relationships are, at their core, just relationships.

As for me, gah, where do I start? He supports and believes in me, he is emotionally present in tough, tough situations that we've faced together, he speaks to others about me as a priority in his life, he cleans the kitty litter box when I can't (this should really be #1) ... etc etc. You know, things any romantic partner would do. Do you think that D/s or M/s relationships are devoid of mutual love and respect?

I would think that the love and respect get shown in a different way, perhaps. I would think that the more extreme the power imbalance is, the more change we might see in the way love is expressed, and perhaps the more lessened the standard of respect is.

I show love to my human family in a different way than I do the the cats. And I respect the cats qua cats-- but hold the humans to a far higher standard.

We have people here who relish humiliation, being made into fucktoys, objects, etc. And people who love to humiliate etc. We have people who live, or want to submit 24/7. We have people here who, as I have rather waspishly noted, habitually use "master" to mean "man" and "sub" to mean "woman."

When someone talks about limping from an ass-raping, faint from hunger while she cooks her owner's meal, I'm not seeing respect. Fun, sure, why not? But-- respect?

When she talks about what is appropriate for a young teen to witness, and that includes "verbal reprimands, asking permission, knowing who eats first" and then-- talks about the mutual love and mutual respect that the boy also witnesses, I really wonder how the respect part has been demonstrated. Because to a modern-day boy's eyes, verbally reprimanding an adult woman is NOT respectful.

Let's break this down - are you saying that a power exchange relationship necessarily includes abuse -- physical or emotional -- that the children witness?

If the power exchange is expressed 24/7, yes. Someone has to lay down the law, someone else has to toe the line. How do the children tell the difference between the rituals that the couple have established, and abuse?
BiBunny is very eloquent about her domineering narcissist mother, who sounds JUST like many men's ideal Domme by her descriptions. And who, in fact, sounds to me a good deal like osg's Daddy, only female of course. Maybe that's what is really going on with BiBunny's parents. maybe her mother strapped one on and made her dad her bitch on a Saturday night. How would a child tell the difference between a Domme and an abusive wife?

 

[Stella_Omega]

He is always, always there for me. He stuck with me when my depression was at its worst and i was making his everyday life 24/7 hell...he used all of his personal resources, connections, and every spare moment trying to get me the right kind of professional help...he did endless research so he could better understand the demon i was fighting, took me to countless highly-recommended doctors, from psychiatrists to neurologists. and he was just patient, endlessly patient. suffering right there with me, and refusing to give up even when he had every right to and any normal man would have left long ago. and he showed me how to hope.

He continues to be there, and expresses his love and devotion everyday. even on the days when frankly, i don't deserve it. He shelters me from the big bad world which has always been too much for me. He praises me to anyone who will listen...relatives, co-workers, strangers on the internet...i know this because every time i come across someone who has spent more than 5 minutes talking to him, they have heard wonderful things about me. He made me a fixture in his family, which accepted me with open arms and are a huge part of my everyday life. while still in hospital recovering from a stroke, his father requested me at his bedside, took my hand on the side which was not paralyzed...lifted it to his mouth and kissed it. it was the very first time that i have felt, and known, i was part of a family.

what else is there? just everything. playing nurse not just when i'm sick, but when my clumsiness leaves me with yet another scratch or scrape. ironing my clothes (yes, he does ALL the ironing). doing his son's laundry so i won't be traumatized. getting me the world's most awesome birthday cake last year...strawberry shortcake with white chocolate frosting and like a hundred huge whole juicy fresh strawberries!! taking me to the Rennfair this past saturday, even though it's not his thing at all. telling me everyday that i'm beautiful. and making more personal sacrifices than i care to think about.

that's the short version.

Are the ass-rapings and starvings a thing of the past, then?

 

[ownedsubgal]

Are the ass-rapings and starvings a thing of the past, then?

lmbo. it's like eastern said...why, when it comes to M/s, do so many focus only on the "extremes?" maybe all the day to day mundane little details of life are just not interesting enough? anyway, Stella, as you have admitted, D/s is just not your thing. power exchange as an everyday way of life is just not your thing. hence, i can understand why it would be difficult for you to view it as anything other than some sort of constant humiliation, degradation or abuse. but if that were really the case, no one would choose this way of life. so obviously, people choose it because it fulfills something deep within them, perhaps allows them the only way they can express their true natures and be accepted and valued for it.

now the funny part...have i been recently ass raped or starved? nope. the toughest things i've had to endure of a physical nature occurred primarily in the first couple of years of the relationship, and served training/educational purposes. those particular lessons have been learned. now it's about continued growth, and well, just plain living. but of course beatings still happen, and tremendous emotional challenges still happen. but they happen in the appropriate place and time...not behind a closed door, a stone's throw away from a minor, or anything else outrageous. that something like that would even need to be said is crazy.

but the most important thing i would hope to impress upon you personally, Stella, is that this is the life and relationship i want. it would completely devastate me to be without my Master. completely. even in M/s, in the big picture it is about everyone's needs being fulfilled.

 

[JMohegan]

If the power exchange is expressed 24/7, yes. Someone has to lay down the law, someone else has to toe the line. How do the children tell the difference between the rituals that the couple have established, and abuse?

There are authority figures who clearly respect and value the ones whom they control. Teachers, bosses, coaches, and so on.

How do you tell the difference between those authority figures, and authority figures who abuse their positions of power?

There's a difference, yes? Can't you tell?

I have the impression, Stella, that you don't respect people who defer to their partners (outside the bedroom) in a personal relationship. And you are therefore assuming that a D or M in such a relationship would share your lack of respect, and that lack of respect would therefore by obvious to anyone living under the same roof.

 

[Stella_Omega]

lmbo. it's like eastern said...why, when it comes to M/s, do so many focus only on the "extremes?" maybe all the day to day mundane little details of life are just not interesting enough? anyway, Stella, as you have admitted, D/s is just not your thing. power exchange as an everyday way of life is just not your thing. hence, i can understand why it would be difficult for you to view it as anything other than some sort of constant humiliation, degradation or abuse. but if that were really the case, no one would choose this way of life. so obviously, people choose it because it fulfills something deep within them, perhaps allows them the only way they can express their true natures and be accepted and valued for it.

now the funny part...have i been recently ass raped or starved? nope. the toughest things i've had to endure of a physical nature occurred primarily in the first couple of years of the relationship, and served training/educational purposes. those particular lessons have been learned. now it's about continued growth, and well, just plain living. but of course beatings still happen, and tremendous emotional challenges still happen. but they happen in the appropriate place and time...not behind a closed door, a stone's throw away from a minor, or anything else outrageous. that something like that would even need to be said is crazy.

but the most important thing i would hope to impress upon you personally, Stella, is that this is the life and relationship i want. it would completely devastate me to be without my Master. completely. even in M/s, in the big picture it is about everyone's needs being fulfilled.

believe me, I absolutely totally one hundred percent understand that this is the relationship you want. I have reiterated that in SO many posts.

You WANT this, I've known that from the start. I am happy you have what you want.

And I one hundred percent totally understand that a LOT of people believe in submission, or consider it part of their basic personality, or retreat to it from the workaday world.

Hell, I can see submissive traits in myself-- when my employer says "Stop filing my taxes and come have a cup of coffee with me" I do-- even though I know better than he does what needs to be done.

So, why do people focus on the extremes? Well as you point out, the mundane isn't so interesting. But also, because you present us with the details of your extremes, and gloss over the less extreme details.

Honestly, I did figure that the hard stuff was early stuff. I know how indoctrination works, and that's what you two were doing. In fact, I do know another couple that went through a very similar process-- only they are gay men, so no dependent and impressionable children to worry about. Man, I get jealous sometimes!

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are authority figures who clearly respect and value the ones whom they control. Teachers, bosses, coaches, and so on.

How do you tell the difference between those authority figures, and authority figures who abuse their positions of power?

There's a difference, yes? Can't you tell?

I have the impression, Stella, that you don't respect people who defer to their partners (outside the bedroom) in a personal relationship. And you are therefore assuming that a D or M in such a relationship would share your lack of respect, and that lack of respect would therefore by obvious to anyone living under the same roof.

I am asking how you think a CHILD would be able to tell.

 

[BiBunny]

BiBunny is very eloquent about her domineering narcissist mother, who sounds JUST like many men's ideal Domme by her descriptions. And who, in fact, sounds to me a good deal like osg's Daddy, only female of course. Maybe that's what is really going on with BiBunny's parents. maybe her mother strapped one on and made her dad her bitch on a Saturday night. How would a child tell the difference between a Domme and an abusive wife?

I know I shouldn't wade back in here, but this is not the case at all. It's completely evident that the two of them hate one another and are miserable, and it's not consensual in the least, unless you want to argue that the fact that they've stayed together for 36 years and not gotten divorced makes it consensual.

 

[intothewoods]

I am asking how you think a CHILD would be able to tell.

A child knows when something is wrong. I mean, unless you completely isolate them from the world at large (and even then), they know when something isn't right at home.

 

[JMohegan]

I am asking how you think a CHILD would be able to tell.

Right. I'll rephrase my question.

As a child, Stella, couldn't you tell the difference between non-parental authority figures who abused their power, and those who clearly respected and valued the people under their control?

 

[intothewoods]

I would think that the love and respect get shown in a different way, perhaps. I would think that the more extreme the power imbalance is, the more change we might see in the way love is expressed, and perhaps the more lessened the standard of respect is.

I show love to my human family in a different way than I do the the cats. And I respect the cats qua cats-- but hold the humans to a far higher standard.

We have people here who relish humiliation, being made into fucktoys, objects, etc. And people who love to humiliate etc. We have people who live, or want to submit 24/7. We have people here who, as I have rather waspishly noted, habitually use "master" to mean "man" and "sub" to mean "woman."

When someone talks about limping from an ass-raping, faint from hunger while she cooks her owner's meal, I'm not seeing respect. Fun, sure, why not? But-- respect?

When she talks about what is appropriate for a young teen to witness, and that includes "verbal reprimands, asking permission, knowing who eats first" and then-- talks about the mutual love and mutual respect that the boy also witnesses, I really wonder how the respect part has been demonstrated. Because to a modern-day boy's eyes, verbally reprimanding an adult woman is NOT respectful.

If the power exchange is expressed 24/7, yes. Someone has to lay down the law, someone else has to toe the line. How do the children tell the difference between the rituals that the couple have established, and abuse?
BiBunny is very eloquent about her domineering narcissist mother, who sounds JUST like many men's ideal Domme by her descriptions. And who, in fact, sounds to me a good deal like osg's Daddy, only female of course. Maybe that's what is really going on with BiBunny's parents. maybe her mother strapped one on and made her dad her bitch on a Saturday night. How would a child tell the difference between a Domme and an abusive wife?

Every relationship is different. If you have a strong desire for humiliation, then your partner is respecting you by giving you what you need. Unless the argument is that humiliation play is unhealthy. Presumably parents can figure out to keep that out of view of minors. I don't think it's purely a question of how extreme the power imbalance is but how that power exchange is expressed.

Hey, I'm fine to say that our power exchange is D/s lite, whatever, although plenty of peope have defined their D/s similarly around here over the years.

ETA - I do really like "cats qua cats."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Right. I'll rephrase my question.

As a child, Stella, couldn't you tell the difference between non-parental authority figures who abused their power, and those who clearly respected and valued the people under their control?

But we ARE talking about parental authority figures here. Specifically.

 

[JMohegan]

But we ARE talking about parental authority figures here. Specifically.

Yes, I know, but the child is using the same instincts and patterns of reasoning to evaluate whether someone is being valued & respected vs. being abused.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, I know, but the child is using the same instincts and patterns of reasoning to evaluate whether someone is being valued & respected vs. being abused.

Only if the kid has the skills to do that reasoning, and some notion of what the patterns mean. Instinct alone doesn't cut it when the life environment has become as complex as ours have. And the child needs to believe things are good in it's home-- being absolutely dependent on mom, especially, for survival. Mostly, young kids internalise their discomfort, believe it's their fault. If they feel something wrong, they won't say anything. saying it magically makes it so, you see. And then it will REALLY be their fault.

And no, I couldn't tell, actually. I didn't experience much abuse, given that the early sixties weren't very concious years-- but that which I did encounter I only understood many years later.

The first time I knew someone was hinky while she was being abusive, was in high school. She was my drama teacher. And I've recently run into her-- she's a Domme in the local scene now.

 

[JMohegan]

Only if the kid has the skills to do that reasoning, and some notion of what the patterns mean. Instinct alone doesn't cut it when the life environment has become as complex as ours have. And the child needs to believe things are good in it's home-- being absolutely dependent on mom, especially, for survival. Mostly, young kids internalise their discomfort, believe it's their fault. If they feel something wrong, they won't say anything. saying it magically makes it so, you see. And then it will REALLY be their fault.

And no, I couldn't tell, actually. I didn't experience much abuse, given that the early sixties weren't very concious years-- but that which I did encounter I only understood many years later.

The first time I knew someone was hinky while she was being abusive, was in high school. She was my drama teacher. And I've recently run into her-- she's a Domme in the local scene now.

No, no, you don't understand what I'm asking. Apologies; I'll try again.

I'm talking about the difference between direction delivered in a respectful tone, and direction delivered in a tone of contempt. Rules, standards, and expectations applied in a way that seems firm but fair, and rules, standards, and expectations applied in a way that seems capricious and unreasonable. Things like that.

I remember making those distinctions, and I don't think that's an unusual ability for a kid.

The bottom line of what I'm saying is that it's not the skewed power dynamic itself that generates the appearance of abuse, but rather the way in which that power is administered by the authority figure and received by the one who defers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, no, you don't understand what I'm asking. Apologies; I'll try again.

I'm talking about the difference between direction delivered in a respectful tone, and direction delivered in a tone of contempt. Rules, standards, and expectations applied in a way that seems firm but fair, and rules, standards, and expectations applied in a way that seems capricious and unreasonable. Things like that.

Don't forget, as a female child, I was young in a time where innately unfair rules and standards and directives were delivered in a respectful tone. And not capriciously, either, the standards always applied. They were double standards, that's all. They were firm, consistent standards that hurt. Me.

And yes, absolutely, no one needs to point it out to me-- this is part of my, very personal problem-- a huge, huge part-- with heteronormative Dom/sub dynamics.

Again, I do NOT condemn (I had originally said "proscribe") these dynamics for anyone else.

Most of the women here are younger, and won't experience firm consistent sexist standards unless they ask for it. You're welcome, ladies. I have fought for forty some years for this.

I remember making those distinctions, and I don't think that's an unusual ability for a kid.

But you cannot count on it. Really, you cant. And you cant count on the kid to say one single word about his misunderstandings. The general rule is; "First do no harm."

The bottom line of what I'm saying is that it's not the skewed power dynamic itself that generates the appearance of abuse, but rather the way in which that power is administered by the authority figure and received by the one who defers.

True. And that's what osg keeps saying as well.