Relationships ruined by "lifestylers"?

[Stella_Omega]

good questions. i'm starting to wonder exactly who, if anyone, would meet their standards for adequate parenthood....Bill and Claire Huxtable maybe?

(then again, no...Claire was pretty bossy sometimes.)

One of the very few TV marrieds that met as equals, showed love and affection, negotiated to solve differences, yeah. They weren't a half-hour sitcom stereotype. Not being a half-hour sitcom stereotype is a very good thing for real life.

One-way power dynamics? Not good for a kid to witness. Doesn't matter what the sex of the respectives are, as BiBunny's reminiscences show very clearly. It was a rather feeble rhetorical question from Daddy2.

 

[NomadLady]

of course they can, and do. children should never be witness to anything inappropriate, but your idea of what's inappropriate very likely differs from mine or Daddy's.

where most of us can agree...no sexual exchange of any kind in front of the kids (duh); no discipline or punishment, physical or not, administered in front of the kids. and no, kids shouldn't see black eyes or other injuries administered by one partner to the other (that's about the only time i wear make-up). beyond that it's debatable. things like verbal reprimands or asking permission can be handled in front of children in a responsible manner. likewise, little everyday rituals like who eats first or who sits where, are not a big deal. the critical thing is maintaining an atmosphere of mutual respect and appreciation, imo.

You admittedly have been with this man since you were only 20, you've admitted he is a good bit older than you and now you are saying there are injuires he administers that have to be covered with make-up so I assume those marks are in places that normal attire would not cover. I don't care what other BS you spew here......you ARE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. Too bad you are too niave to see it. But yet you can call a licensed psychiatrist that tried to help you a dimwit?????

 

[ownedsubgal]

You seem to be deliberately ignoring all the dozens of previous posts discussing a child's ability to distinguish between protocol and a healthy, loving relationship. Not to mention all of the other things that could happen. Reread Soumis' post to know exactly how I feel.

did you happen to catch my response to that post? http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=35409953&postcount=92

obviously my posts are the ones being ignored, by a good 90% at least. i am not even going to attempt to defend myself or way of life any further. i will only say that my Master is an excellent Father, and very much loved and admired by his son who is pretty darn happy and well-balanced. he craves the comfort and warmth of our home, he cherishes our family, and the three of us as a family unit are very close.

it's completely maddening to me that those who know no better could automatically label this household as an inappropriate or unhealthy one for a child, just because we do not believe in equal authority. but, people will believe what they believe, and moral condemnation is a powerful high for some.

 

[ownedsubgal]

You admittedly have been with this man since you were only 20, you've admitted he is a good bit older than you and now you are saying there are injuires he administers that have to be covered with make-up so I assume those marks are in places that normal attire would not cover. I don't care what other BS you spew here......you ARE IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. Too bad you are too niave to see it. But yet you can call a licensed psychiatrist that tried to help you a dimwit?????

good golly miss molly you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. it is just not worth it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

did you happen to catch my response to that post? http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=35409953&postcount=92

obviously my posts are the ones being ignored, by a good 90% at least. i am not even going to attempt to defend myself or way of life any further. i will only say that my Master is an excellent Father, and very much loved and admired by his son who is pretty darn happy and well-balanced. he craves the comfort and warmth of our home, he cherishes our family, and the three of us as a family unit are very close.

it's completely maddening to me that those who know no better could automatically label this household as an inappropriate or unhealthy one for a child, just because we do not believe in equal authority. but, people will believe what they believe, and moral condemnation is a powerful high for some.

Apropos of your response to Soumis, I had asked;

How, in this domestic context, does your Master show respect to you, the slave? Specific instances?

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

One-way power dynamics? Not good for a kid to witness. Doesn't matter what the sex of the respectives are, as BiBunny's reminiscences show very clearly. It was a rather feeble rhetorical question from Daddy2.

Not feeble or rhetorical.

You specifically brought up M/s and everyone else ran with it. There was no mention of any of the other relationships I brought up. I just wanted clarification.

 

[CutieMouse]

OSG is not in an abusive relationship.

It may not be a "typical" or politically correct D/s or M/s relationship (and sometimes takes a very open mind to comprehend), but after years of reading her posts, I have come to realize that it isn't abusive - it's just very different.

 

[sb2009]

I am not sure how to say this, so I will just say and maybe it will make some sort of sense.

I want my kids to know that that people who love each other don't hurt each other. I want them to know that in thier bones. They learn quickly that things like taking medicine, or removing a splinter or getting a shot are differnent than someone hurting someone. When they get the capacity, they can learn about masochism, D/s, M/s, pottery, whatever...


But my message as a mom is clear: Love does not hurt. And no one has to put up with anything they don't want to - there is always a choice. There will be consuquences, sure, but the choice will be there.

They can learn later on about giving up your right to an Owner and formulate thier own ideas on what that means. But I am absolutely not raising kids that will doubt thier right to not be afraid in thier own home. If i have anything to say about it, they will know without a shadow of a doubt they own thier own bodies and thier minds.

I'm totally preachy here....and it stems from my personal experience, from how long it took me to realize that actually, No, I was not *nothing* and didn't have to be treated the way I was...it's not always easy for people to see that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not feeble or rhetorical.

You specifically brought up M/s and everyone else ran with it. There was no mention of any of the other relationships I brought up. I just wanted clarification.

M/s is a unisex term, which covers everything else you asked about. Hetero is not the default.



In my opinion, osg's relationship can best be described as a "domestic abuse scene." Sure, it's consensual, and I totally believe that. That's what makes it so unusual! It also has pretty much every earmark of domestic abuse, and no earmarks of anything else. I'm trying to come up with a simile...

how about; "It's an oak tree. Doesn't matter how pretty you've pruned it, those are acorns growing on it."

 

[KoPilot]

moral condemnation is a powerful high for some.

Trying to legitimize selfishness under the guise of martyrdom is a high for others, I'm sure.

 

[VelvetSin]

you certainly did more than your share to contribute to the "not happy."

You're right, and I'm sorry for that. An adult living in a situation is one thing, but when I realized a child was present also, I lost my balance. I meant what I said but it was unrequested opinion, and since I'm not a court officer or social worker on your case, there's not a lot of point to it sharing it.

ETA (saw intothewoods' link):
eastern_sun, thank you for sharing. That sounds like a great combination of everyone's needs!

 

[intothewoods]

When my daughter was seven, she asked me "Why can't you decide? Why do you have to ask Dad all the time?" It threw me, because it was the first time I saw myself through her eyes in terms of our M/s relationship. And it also frightened me, because I thought she was right. It wasn't fair to her to model such dependent behavior.

I spoke with my husband that night, and told him what she said. He agreed that she needed to witness my ability to make choices, take action, solve problems, etc. as an independent woman, and used the moment to point out that he had no interest in micromanaging our lives, and that I should take initiative in their care.

My daughter today views me today as a highly creative, intelligent and competent woman (she told me so last night). And I think we handled the situation as well as we could. Taking into account the needs of our daughter, and modifying our behavior, without having to abandon the structure of the dynamics altogether.

This is pretty interesting, es, thanks for sharing it. I wouldn't imagine you in the way your daughter described at age 7.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

M/s is a unisex term, which covers everything else you asked about. Hetero is not the default.

Ok.

24/7 slave/master?

But you made it the default.

Thus my need for clarification.

 

[ImOnIt]

how about; "It's an oak tree. Doesn't matter how pretty you've pruned it, those are acorns growing on it."

Stella, a second please.


Beating someone is bad treatment of a partner. If the beaten partner flourishes and does not endure, then they are not wronged. You might be patronising someone who is not wronged.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ok.



But you made it the default.

Thus my need for clarification.

Oh, I see. Because a female has to be called a Mistress, or we get all confused because there is such a huge difference between boy PYLs and girl PYLs. And "sub" is not a synonym for "woman.

I'm sorry I confused you-- again, there is no default sex combo in BDSM.


osg made herself the default in this convo, however.

 

[ImOnIt]

You're being a douchebag today.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, a second please.


Beating someone is bad treatment of a partner. If the beaten partner flourishes and does not endure, then they are not wronged. You might be patronising someone who is not wronged.

We've been discussing that issue all the way through this thread.

Beating is beating. It doesn't matter if it's ritualised beating on the cross in the dungeon, or impromptu whaling in the living room. it doesn't matter if the beating is con or non-con. There is still only one word for it, along with a host of modifiers.

 

[Soumis]

Soumis, i'm confused why you seem to believe that just because a person is a submissive or slave, they are not treated with respect or valued by their Dominant partner? you do not need to treat someone as an equal in order to respect them. a parent can respect a child, an employer can respect an employee. you can be acknowledged, appreciated, needed and greatly valued without being someone of equal status or authority.

I don't think that a submissive or a slave is automatically treated without respect. I do think that a popular angle of bdsm is humiliation which can look disrespectful to children. I don't think human beings have equal status or authority in many situations; I do think that they all have equal rights though, and one of those is to be treated as such. This needs to be taught to children. It would be difficult to teach that when you don't practice it. An instance of, do what I say, not what I do again, which we all know doesn't work out well.

in response to your last post, of course i am a part of the family dynamic...we ARE a family. my place in that family is just not one of parental authority. i am his Father's mate, and his friend. the most accurate description of our connection and relationship would be brother/older sister (but we don't use any labels). it's what came naturally for us, and what works for us.

Actually, it is possible to not be seen as a step parent while still being part of the family dynamic. F chooses to not step in and be a stepfather to my son, which also suits my son fine as he has issues with the thought of fathers given his biological fathers lack of interest. If my son wants F's advice about something, he will ask him similar to how you would a good friend, if there is need for us to make a decision about something which involves all it is discussed by everyone and my son offers his thoughts, I offer mine if requested to, and F makes the decision. In terms of decisions directly involving my son, F prefers me to take care of it though he will offer his thoughts and advice, and at times actively become involved.

Catalina

I'm with intothewoods on this one. I'm curious how old F was when he entered your child's life. I think it's impossible for a child to view an adult in a relationship with their parent in a truly separate, non-parental, role. Regardless of how little the partner parents, they will influence a child through their actions and serve as both an individual role model and a relationship one. Again, even if a person chooses not to "parent," that doesn't mean they wouldn't have as much influence as one.

I believe that anyone gives up the right to exhibit their "nature" or "life" in front of children as soon as a child enters the home if that "nature" or "life" might raise the eybrow of a court-appointed social worker, whether Master/slave, "vanilla," or anything in between. Using the excuse that "vanilla" families are screwed up too to justify behavior is nothing more than a selfish cop-out to put the needs or wants of a parent in front of the real needs of a child. As I mentioned before, if adults involved in D/s have a hard time distinguishing whether a particular relationship is abusive and argue that point at various points in time whenever it is brought up, how would a child be able to recognize the difference? Because he's told and shown love himself? Okay.

I just wanted to highlight the part in bold. It articulates much of what I'm trying to say.

I still don't see how a child show evidence of boundaries crossed, emotional or physical, is supposed to learn to place and respect appropriate boundaries on their own. A child cannot tell the difference between consensual and non-consensual abuse. Which, let's face it, is a lot of what bdsm looks like. I'm not saying that bdsm is abuse, merely that the tools, words, and effects can look identical to those not involved. And a child does not have the capacity to understand the difference.

When my daughter was seven, she asked me "Why can't you decide? Why do you have to ask Dad all the time?" It threw me, because it was the first time I saw myself through her eyes in terms of our M/s relationship. And it also frightened me, because I thought she was right. It wasn't fair to her to model such dependent behavior.

I spoke with my husband that night, and told him what she said. He agreed that she needed to witness my ability to make choices, take action, solve problems, etc. as an independent woman, and used the moment to point out that he had no interest in micromanaging our lives, and that I should take initiative in their care.

My daughter today views me today as a highly creative, intelligent and competent woman (she told me so last night). And I think we handled the situation as well as we could. Taking into account the needs of our daughter, and modifying our behavior, without having to abandon the structure of the dynamics altogether.

Thank you. I was hoping you'd chime in.

M/s is a unisex term, which covers everything else you asked about. Hetero is not the default.

 

[eastern sun]

I want my kids to know that that people who love each other don't hurt each other. I want them to know that in thier bones.

I actually think it's valuable to recognize that people who love each other do hurt each other. Frequently. Sometimes because they intend to and sometimes because they have been clumsy or selfish.

There seems to be an idea prevalent in this thread that M/s is one constant "scene." That has not been my experience. M/s is a relationship like any other. And the varieties of relationships that people can have will be reflected in this type too.

My own relationship has been pretty tame in comparison to all the fantasies out there. So much so, that I know a lot of people have thought "she's not a 'real' slave." On the other hand, because of my children, I wouldn't want to express myself differently at this stage in my life (and secretly delight in the idea that they will one day move out and we'll be on our own again).

But I also imagine that much of osg's life is pretty mundane. People have expressed concern for the nature of her relationship many times over the years, (and honestly I convinced myself she was an alt when I first came around), but very often we hear about the wildest moments and assume that one's whole life is devoted to such chaos. I don't think osg would have thrived in her relationship to the degree that she has if that were so.

I might not choose the relationship she has chosen, but I think we have to be very careful about judging the circumstances of each other's lives without real knowledge. We're telling each other stories, forming opinions, and debating choices on the basis of words and projected images.

I've asked myself many times whether I was fostering violence against women by saying publicly - if anonymously - that I like to get hit, feel shamed, give up my freedom, be treated like an object, etc. I'm not sure I know the answer yet.

In society at large, it's imperative to recognize that people have rights, autonomy, and free will, while still taking into account the very real ways those rights and freedoms are undermined both politically and economically.

Here on a BDSM forum, however, there is at least the possibility of exploring and exchanging ideas and practices about a subset of human sexuality as it is expressed by a wide range of individuals. What is our responsibility in this public debate? Do we have to be politically correct? What if we really aren't? Should we be shamed? And vilified? Dismissed? For the sake of others' safety? And the good of society as a whole?

Or do we just need to qualify our statements in those endless, well for me . . . statements in which definitions and boundaries are set individually in countless debates over terms?

 

[rida]

sorry ... out of context

 

[JMohegan]

Here on a BDSM forum, however, there is at least the possibility of exploring and exchanging ideas and practices about a subset of human sexuality as it is expressed by a wide range of individuals. What is our responsibility in this public debate? Do we have to be politically correct? What if we really aren't? Should we be shamed? And vilified? Dismissed? For the sake of others' safety? And the good of society as a whole?

Or do we just need to qualify our statements in those endless, well for me . . . statements in which definitions and boundaries are set individually in countless debates over terms?

Let's say there was a forum member called "Badass Bob," who posted about how he met a barely legal female with a history of abuse and mental illness and offered her a life of M/s, which she accepted.

Over weeks and months of posting, he revealed that he's told her she has no right to leave; if she tried, he would track her down and kill her. He revealed that the s gets no physical pleasure from BDSM, and that he beat her brutally - sometimes for his own entertainment, sometimes as punishment. Occasionally, he has caused injuries, such as a dislocated shoulder, that sent her to the hospital. He also whores her out, for money, to men who sometimes use her brutally and occasionally impregnate her, at which times he takes her for abortions. He orders her to cut off contact with all prior family and friends, and convinces her that psychiatrists are bad, police are bad, and the system in general is grossly unfair because it persecutes people like them, who are just trying to live their own lifestyle - a lifestyle which is just a natural expression of who they are as individuals. The ultimate Us vs. Them. They should just be left alone to live their lives together, and raise their son.

If members of the forum posted criticism of Badass Bob, ES, would you respond with polite but pointed criticism of them?

In discussing "subsets of human sexuality," should we avoid condemnation altogether? Not only when reading posts by individuals whose situations bear marked resemblance to those of abuse victims, but when reading posts by those who sound like abusers as well?

 

[NomadLady]

Let's say there was a forum member called "Badass Bob," who posted about how he met a barely legal female with a history of abuse and mental illness and offered her a life of M/s, which she accepted.

Over weeks and months of posting, he revealed that he's told her she has no right to leave; if she tried, he would track her down and kill her. He revealed that the s gets no physical pleasure from BDSM, and that he beat her brutally - sometimes for his own entertainment, sometimes as punishment. Occasionally, he has caused injuries, such as a dislocated shoulder, that sent her to the hospital. He also whores her out, for money, to men who sometimes use her brutally and occasionally impregnate her, at which times he takes her for abortions. He orders her to cut off contact with all prior family and friends, and convinces her that psychiatrists are bad, police are bad, and the system in general is grossly unfair because it persecutes people like them, who are just trying to live their own lifestyle - a lifestyle which is just a natural expression of who they are as individuals. The ultimate Us vs. Them. They should just be left alone to live their lives together, and raise their son.

If members of the forum posted criticism of Badass Bob, ES, would you respond with polite but pointed criticism of them?

In discussing "subsets of human sexuality," should we avoid condemnation altogether? Not only when reading posts by individuals whose situations bear marked resemblance to those of abuse victims, but when reading posts by those who sound like abusers as well?

I feel as though Badass Bob would not be so quick to post her obituary when that time came.

 

[FloggingMolly]

I think I miss Bloved, at least the majorty of the forum wasn't ripping into each other quite so much then...

In terms of the original post, yup, although I was little more than a kid, the boyfriend I had at 15 pushed me to exclude my friends completel. He'd chuck tantrums when I was due to see them, and guilt me into spendng tme with him, tried to convince me that they didn't really like me, no-one cared about me as much as him etc. I was fool enough to want to please him that I always did what he wanted. When he cheated and found someone else, he worked to get all the friends I'd lost on his side, blaming it on me, so that I had no support at all. I hated him for it. Even now, more than a decade on, when he tried to add me on facebook, I remembered how crap it made me feel.

As for the children and exposure to M/s... I think that all you can ever do is do what you think is best. I disagree that if you have a non-vanilla lifestyle, you should not have kids. Frankly, there are far worse situations for kids to be born into. I'd have preferred to have been brought up in an M/s household that was happy than a vanilla disaster like the one I had. On the flipside, I'd be uncomfortable having bruises that had to be hidden, because I'd worry that I was sending mixed messages about acceptable behaviour. I think maybe compromise is the only option. Seeing one parent defer to the other doesn't bother me, especially when there are other social influences and role-models in the child's life.

Maybe I'll think differently if we ever have kids.

 

[Stella_Omega]

For those of you who are lifetime subs, how does your PYL show respect and love for you?

Serious question, honestly.

 

[intothewoods]

Interesting posts, es and Jm.

This has come up before on this forum - no, not osg's life but the place where we all draw our ethical lines. Discussing children and parenting is always a touchy subject.

es - You're right that we don't know the whole picture. That's always especially true on the internet. I think JM poses some good questions though. How should one react when someone on the forum posts something that sounds really objectionable? We only know what is posted here, and it can be difficult to express one's opinion honestly and yet remain respectful.

I hear you that M/s is not a continuous scene as well. I haven't been thinking about this in terms of M/s only, because one couple's M/s is not another's. That's why I said the devil is in the details.