Religion and sexuality

[shereads]

Re: Re: Uh-oh.

Reminds me of something I used to like to point out- God is not a Christian. Nor is he a Jew. Nor is he any other 'religion.' Think about it.

That won't work on true believers, snp. My brother-in-law not only knows that God is Protestant and politically conservative, but also thinks God is on the side of a particular college football team.

 

[Pure]

Hi Sensual P,

SP: Reread my statment about how some atheists can become "religiously" in their behavior because they are driven by ideology. Violence in such case have nothing to do with belief in God or lack of them. It have more to do with the fact that they believe that any force in service of perceived "good" is morally justified. Such rationalization has been noticed down the ages with "All roads to hell are paved with good intentions." I don't see any use of force, beyond emergery need for self-defense as in case of being robbed, as good.

OK, I did go and find your reference to atheists with ideology. These you say, can be dangerous, just as many Christians Muslims, etc. are.

Well, I agree if a person kills lots and lots of people, they likely have a cause (be they atheist or not).

Anyway, it appears your atheism, which you say is a religion, I gather, is critical and rational.

Also you generally oppose the use of force except in self defense.
(I take it you would never call the cops to help someone?). Call this your 'non violent' stance.

What I don't see is any connection between your atheism and your non violent stance. Maybe you can explain. (This is not a criticism of either position, just a statement about not seeing a linkage.)

Seems to me your position is similar to Ayn Rand's, or am I imagining things?


J.

 

[Seattle Zack]

That's why they cut the hole in the roof of Texas Stadium, home of the Cowboys. "So God can watch His team play" (a quote that dates back to the days of Tom Landry and Roger Staubach).

 

[shereads]

God secretly pulls for the University of South Carolina Fighting Gamecocks. He doesn't interfere on their behalf, because He's busy working with the Dallas Cowboys. But He gets a kick out sitting in the stadium hearing all of those newly liberated teenagers, away from home for the first time, screaming "COCKS" at the top of their lungs.

Oh, the freedom! Oh, the bumper stickers.

 

[shereads]

It's all moot now, anyway.

DOLPHINS EVOLVE OPPOSABLE THUMBS
'Oh Shit,' Says Mankind

HONOLULU–(theonion.com) In an announcement with grave implications for the primacy of the species of man, marine biologists at the Hawaii Oceanographic Institute reported Monday that dolphins, or family Delphinidae, have evolved opposable thumbs on their pectoral fins.

"I believe I speak for the entire human race when I say, 'Holy fuck,'" said Oceanographic Institute director Dr. James Aoki, noting that the dolphin has a cranial capacity 40 percent greater than that of humans. "That's it for us monkeys."

Aoki strongly urged humans, especially those living near the sea, to learn to communicate using a system of clicks and whistles in a frequency range of 4 to 150 kHz.

 

[SummerMorning]

Re: Re: Re: Holy Chimma Rotcha, Batman!

B]

Are you sure you're not confusing religion with philosophy? I don't see anything wrong with mythical philosophy as long as they understand that such expression is nothing more than poetic reaction to the beauty of world and open to new insights from science. [/B]

Religion and philosophy? No, Sensual, I am not...besides, where to draw the line? Is buddhism, which says be nice to people (forgot the name) and don't hurt living creatures (ahimsa), a philosophy or a religion? Well, it can be both.

I am just saying it comes down to belief in the end.

Gauche - the cargo cult was an Oceanic invention - Papua New Guinea unless memory fails me. Preachers would go around saying the the Gods spoke to them through the radio and that they, the true people, would throw down the yoke of the white man and then get all the cargo for themselves.

Now, about lies - I think we don't need anyone making up lies on purpose - we make them up ourselves. Lies by each other for each other.

You see, it's not enough to have somebody lie to you "God Do-Lar will abandon you unless you serve me," you have to reciprocate with a lie (to yourself), "God Do-Lar is the basis of my life"

And yes...thinking is hard, especially when hung over...

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Back on Track...

This is a very interesting thread. At same time, I would like to explore the relationship between spirituality, religion, and sexuality. So starting off the bat, how many people read Robert Rimmer's attempt to create a sex-positive humanist religion in books such as Harrad Experiment, The Education of Yale Marrat, and (sadly, poorly edited) The Dreamer of Dreams?

I have the pleasure of communiating with Mr. Rimmer before his untimely death where he really like my artworks in which I try to create a new mythology that is sex-positive.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Re: It's all moot now, anyway.

DOLPHINS EVOLVE OPPOSABLE THUMBS
'Oh Shit,' Says Mankind

HONOLULU–(theonion.com) In an announcement with grave implications for the primacy of the species of man, marine biologists at the Hawaii Oceanographic Institute reported Monday that dolphins, or family Delphinidae, have evolved opposable thumbs on their pectoral fins.

"I believe I speak for the entire human race when I say, 'Holy fuck,'" said Oceanographic Institute director Dr. James Aoki, noting that the dolphin has a cranial capacity 40 percent greater than that of humans. "That's it for us monkeys."

Aoki strongly urged humans, especially those living near the sea, to learn to communicate using a system of clicks and whistles in a frequency range of 4 to 150 kHz.

NOW you're talking!!!

 

[SummerMorning]

Re: Back on Track...

This is a very interesting thread. At same time, I would like to explore the relationship between spirituality, religion, and sexuality. So starting off the bat, how many people read Robert Rimmer's attempt to create a sex-positive humanist religion in books such as Harrad Experiment, The Education of Yale Marrat, and (sadly, poorly edited) The Dreamer of Dreams?

I have the pleasure of communiating with Mr. Rimmer before his untimely death where he really like my artworks in which I try to create a new mythology that is sex-positive.

I have never come across his work - but your mention of artwork is interesting. Do you have any examples we could see? And where do you take your inspiration?

Personally, if I had to look for sex-positive mythology it would be hinduism's kama sutra and the kamadharma (I believe its called)

 

[Pure]

Yes, Sensual P, I read some of The Harrad Experiment (from HARvard and RADcliffe). I recall it as a kind of gentle, utopian, everyone-fucks-everyone community, with temporary liaisons of couples so inclined, but no marriage, monogamy; most relationships encouraged to be 'open.' I recall that the author seemed to think there were a couple minor difficulties with the plan, like jealousy, but that none of them were fatal. I forget how the place was run, whether there was a benevolent leader or a democratically elected committee, maybe iirc, the former.

Is my memory correct?

It's my guess that you claim that if people were more "rational," they'd be more 'sex positive' and cease having outmoded prohibitions, culturally proscribed (without rational basis) behaviors such as orgies, bi-swinging, incest among adults, consensual bdsm, and consensual necrophilia.

I guess a lot of us around here would like fewer laws around consensual sex, porn etc, and more 'sex positive' attitudes. And are theists and some are atheists. Again I see no link between atheism and liberalism around sex, though 'free thinkers' such are yourself do tend to be liberal.

You never defined a 'religion', I don't believe, but it seems to be a system of beliefs, practices and rituals that somehow make life meaningful. Is that correct? {{deleted: In that sense your 'nonideological atheism' is a religion, according to you**. Correct?}}

Your postings are interesting, though basic concepts are a bit fuzzy.

Best,
J.

**Added: This was an error of ascription; actually summer morning proposed that atheism was a religion.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Hi Sensual P,

SP: Reread my statment about how some atheists can become "religiously" in their behavior because they are driven by ideology. Violence in such case have nothing to do with belief in God or lack of them. It have more to do with the fact that they believe that any force in service of perceived "good" is morally justified. Such rationalization has been noticed down the ages with "All roads to hell are paved with good intentions." I don't see any use of force, beyond emergery need for self-defense as in case of being robbed, as good.

OK, I did go and find your reference to atheists with ideology. These you say, can be dangerous, just as many Christians Muslims, etc. are.

Well, I agree if a person kills lots and lots of people, they likely have a cause (be they atheist or not).

Anyway, it appears your atheism, which you say is a religion, I gather, is critical and rational.

Also you generally oppose the use of force except in self defense.
(I take it you would never call the cops to help someone?). Call this your 'non violent' stance.

What I don't see is any connection between your atheism and your non violent stance. Maybe you can explain. (This is not a criticism of either position, just a statement about not seeing a linkage.)

Seems to me your position is similar to Ayn Rand's, or am I imagining things?


J.

Maybe I'm not seeing the way you see, I thought I has stated that atheism is not a religion. I will also add that I see it as a philological position. The relationship between my atheism and my position on use of force have to do with the fact that I value individualist freedom and dislike authority of any kind beyond those that I consent to via wriiten contract with my name signed, dated and notized.

Now as for Ayn Rand, there's a reason for it. George H. Smith, the author is Atheism: The case againest God, was strongly inpacted by Ayn Rand's writings, and I like his books so some of that got passed on. In my readings, Ayn Rand was meationed so many times that I decided to read some of her stuff for myself. My reaction is this, she's a very talented writer and thinker. She employed very bold use of imagery and pardox such as "selfishness is a virtue" which delights me no end because I love any ununusal combinations (must be the artist in me). Some of her writings such as a section on "temple of human spirit" and the skyline of New York City were very beautiful and moving. She also stress the idea of natural law as a counterpoint, a counter-powervto political power in order to limit the abuse of political power. She dose considered the state as needed human insititution to prevent Hobbsian struggle. At same time, I dislike her harsh attitude toward some people and groups. In many ways, she fought communism who destroyed her family' lives in Russia so strongly that she became a mirror of what she hated. (Which is another reason why using force beyond self-defense can be bad, it seduce you to become the man or thing you hate.) I much perfers Robert A. Heinlein to her because he displayed a more confident, progressive vision for the future with an attitude that is very much like Mark Twain's, his boyhood hero.

Still, she cast a major shadow over a lot of individualists such as Murray Rothbard, and others. So she is unescapeable in any talks about individual freedom.

 

[gauchecritic]

consensual necrophilia.
Best,
J.

Err... by will and testament

Gauche

 

[amicus]

SummerMorning, et al....

Thank you for a marvelously entertaining length of time it took to read the posts to date.

A true pleasure, Summer, to bathe in your thoughts and musings and to chuckle and smile at the humor of others.

I do not wish to shift the direction of the discussion, but as I am engaged in a similar quest for knowledge, I would ask if you might apply your thinking cap in a different direction.

Try placing yourself in a Clan, or Tribe somewhere after the time period in Jean Auel's Clan of the Cave Bear and try to imagine the beginnings, the roots of faith and mysticism.

The basic assumption that I have taken, is imperative I think, that life, all life, appeared through evolution and not creation. Secondly, that what ever the purpose of the Universe, it has nothing to do with a 'Supreme Being' of any kind.

Although our Clansmen 10,000 years ago did not make those assumptions, just what did they think and why? Any thoughts or ideas you might have along those lines would be most appreciated. Thank you.

One sour note and dischordant timbre seems always to permeate most lucid discussions; that being that many identify themselves, outright and up-front and with pristine pride, to be, 'Liberals', aka Socialists, aka Social Democrats. They seem to ride the same ideological horse and trample,(as a powerful religion), all and any advocating the individual or freedom of thought and action.

They all seem to express a hatred for the works of man, a free enterprise economy and see mankind as a parasite and destroyer of a, 'natural environment'.

I personally find them obscene and object to the propadanda of the tree hugging left wing liberals on West Wing as much as I do the medieval barbarians that inflict the pain and suffering of the crucifixion and the torture of hell upon innocent children.(read, Sunday School and Catechisms)

Liberalism is truly a religion of the worst kind with an inherent, 'superiority complex' and narcissistic tendency.

Damn that felt good!

I should not have engaged in Liberal bashing, I know. For now I am tainted. But I wish to repeat my pleasure and admiration for your wonderful post.

Many regards for the coming year...amicus.

 

[Pure]

Hi Sensual,

//I thought I has stated that atheism is not a religion. //

True you contrasted atheism with religion. It was Summer Morning I had you confused with; Summer linked the two.

I believe the rest of my posting is unaffected by this mistake.

SP //I value individualist freedom and dislike authority of any kind beyond those that I consent to via wriiten contract with my name signed, dated and not[ar]ized. //

I believe you SP. I also think maybe you like a good steak. But that's not connected to atheism.

What I fail to see is the connection between your atheism and your 'dislike of authority.'

Btw, I take it that you do NOT believe that those in a society, like the US, have obligations to follow laws passed, such as against running red lights and avoiding taxes, since there is no 'written contract' (signed by you) involved.

J.

 

[Pure]

Amicus,

//tree hugging left wing liberals //

I kinda like hugging trees. I think it's better than cattle-hugging or oil-well hugging. No, I'm not a liberal.

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Re: It's all moot now, anyway.

DOLPHINS EVOLVE OPPOSABLE THUMBS
'Oh Shit,' Says Mankind

HONOLULU–(theonion.com) In an announcement with grave implications for the primacy of the species of man, marine biologists at the Hawaii Oceanographic Institute reported Monday that dolphins, or family Delphinidae, have evolved opposable thumbs on their pectoral fins.

"I believe I speak for the entire human race when I say, 'Holy fuck,'" said Oceanographic Institute director Dr. James Aoki, noting that the dolphin has a cranial capacity 40 percent greater than that of humans. "That's it for us monkeys."

Aoki strongly urged humans, especially those living near the sea, to learn to communicate using a system of clicks and whistles in a frequency range of 4 to 150 kHz.

It's even worse for moralitic sex-haters. The dolphins need three partners in order to have sex. Two to fuck and a third to keep them together while in the water. It's Free LOVE Time!

 

[gauchecritic]

Personally, I laugh at Liberal bashing, where is the sense in: if you aren't right you're a commie. ?

They all seem to express a hatred for the works of man, a free enterprise economy and see mankind as a parasite and destroyer of a, 'natural environment'.

But we take great delight in using those very same 'works of man' to enhance our lifestyle and those around us. We also, sneakily, use your infernal engines of dissemination (Internet) essentially 'war machinery' to spread our vile creed of 'be nice'.

Returning to the point of the thread (slightly) I implore you, Amicus, to read "The Science of Discworld II: The Globe" it will answer all of your questions (who invented who) and many, many more besides, you don't even have to read the story parts, just the additional scientific/philosophical stuff.

Gauche (Philosophically communist, Liberals are too far right for me)

 

[raphy]

Re: Re: It's all moot now, anyway.

NOW you're talking!!!

Or clicking, at least....

 

[sensualpilgrim]

Re: Re: Back on Track...

I have never come across his work - but your mention of artwork is interesting. Do you have any examples we could see? And where do you take your inspiration?

Personally, if I had to look for sex-positive mythology it would be hinduism's kama sutra and the kamadharma (I believe its called)

Some of not very many can be found at www.ravenartstudio.com in the Zine section. You can also find them at Scarlet Letters www.scarletletters.com and Jane's Zine, a review of all things erotic, which have a section I forgot the url. But if I remember correctly, you will find all urls at my site.

My inspiration really got the biggest boost from Timothy Freke's The Jesus Mysteries: Was Jesus a Pagan God? I decide to create a new sex-postive mythological art in which Christ is also female goddess of wisdom Sophia. I use golden snake (from Moses story) as Jesus-Sophia. The sexual aspect should be apparent to you.

 

[SummerMorning]

Mmm...I love terms...so confusing, ensure such a nice muddle.

Liberal - every person can do what they want, so long as what they want does not impact what others want - in other words let's go masturbate

Atheism - the belief that there is no god - so what do you scream when you come? "Oh random space-time manifestations that I cannot explain! Yes! Oh! Give it to me, physical rules that are beyond my understanding!"

Agnosticism - the belief that you cannot know if there is a god - "I'm not sure if I've come."

Theism - for those who like things simplified - "Oh! God! Yes! Yes!"

Neoliberal - every person (who has money) can do what they want (and can afford) to whoever they want (and can't afford an attorney) - gang rape style, eh?

Marxist - ...eh...no...I'm not going to make fun of this one. I kind of hold with the old bearded guy.

Communist - nobody, communism never existed - see really existing socialism.

Really Existing Socialsm (Realsocialism) - we are all equal, but some of us are more equal than others - gang rape style, eh? Wait, am I repeating myself?

Planned Economy - one child, three shoes, no food.

Free Market Economy - y children, McDonalds, 25y shoes, 2.5y daily recommended caloric intake per child, advertisment

Bible Thumpers - God gave men those dangly bits to make children, and he made women to make men sorry for having those dangly bits and he made everybody really sorry that they...er...ok.

 

[SummerMorning]

Amikus:

Hmm...I've read Auel's Clan. Can't think what to say - could you specify your question a bit more?

Oh - btw - the neoliberal free market ideology is just as much a "religion" as liberal anarcho-socialism.

 

[amicus]

Thank you for the reply, Summer....and for your sense of humor relating to what one screams in a moment of ecstacy...cute...

From your original post, you seem to be involved in what I would call a Macro search of History, chronologically going back into prehistory.

My quest is to begin, tabula rasa, if such a thing is possible and it really is not...but, still....create a character, many characters, within a story framework that is ongoing as 'man' begins to consider his surroundings and begins asking, 'why" and 'how'.

Using what we know, whatever that is, about the physical function of the human mind, the mind/body relationship and the 'psychology' of ancient man as he looked up at the star studded sky and heard the roar of the cave bear.

Since. of course, there were no diaries kept, we will really never know. Did Auel do a good portrayal of myth and legend and discovery, through Ayla? Would the female truly act in such a way? As I said...any thoughts you might care to share will be most appreciated.....

Again, thank you, and warm regards....amicus....

 

[SummerMorning]

"tabula rasa" (blank slate) is the expression, though "tabula rosa" (pink slate) might apply in this sexually-oriented forum .

I am certain there is no such thing as a "complete" tabula rasa - we come into the world with biology and structure. But it is through culture and society that we become human.

When did we become human? I haven't a clue.

An interesting point is that there are practically no other species where the female is "in heat" all year-round.

When did this evolve? I don't know, but it probably was a turning point in proto-human culture.

I think that for most of human history culture was pragmatic and utilitarian. You sacrificed meat so that the animals would come, you prayed so that the infection wouldn't eat you alive, etc. Culture (and thus religion) played a role in transmitting useful information that helped with survival - creation stories talked about sex, stories of the first people fleshed out the structure of the tribe or clan, etc.

It was only when agriculture and a settled lifestyle allowed the production of surpluses that a religious hierarchy could actually take form, one that wondered about silly and pointless things like "How are we going to get more glass eels for our plate tonight?" or "What three humours are necessary for the Emperor to live forever?" - these surpluses essentially created incentives for somebody who could convince (with a pointy stick or with a pointy symbol) the others to hand over part of these surpluses.

This reminds me of a joke, regarding progress.

"In the middle ages we had to give the Church a tenth of all our produce, today the State leaves us that tenth."

BTW - recent discoveries in Spain and other paleoanthropological studies have shown that it is unlikely neanderthals and cro magnons actually produced viable offspring. So, sadly, tho' Ayla might have been raped, there was probably no son.

 

[amicus]

Again, thank you...fixed the Rosa to Rasa....smiles Fruedian slip no doubt...

Beg to differ, but I watched a Science channel thing just a week or so ago, DNA research, that said we carry the genes of those from the Neander Valley...so indeed, Ayla could have had a son. "Dirk" was he called...has been years since I read that.

Thank you for your musings, I look forward to another friendly encounter...amicus

 

[gauchecritic]

I thought it was just Peur and Mab who were ignoring me

Gauche

Edited because I caught TFCG spelling syndrome