reward vs punishment?

[@}-}rebecca----]

Reward to me is simple in itself , knowing he simply enjoyed 'it' as is appropriate to the context of what was offered.

There is no application of physical punishment that comes anywhere near my mental 'home' that can compete with my contribution to initiating the opposite of the aforementioned.

As for gifts, accolades etc , in the context of a reward , I am completely uncomfortable. To me , in my relationships it would tinge the initial act as a form of manipulation on my part. There would need to be hard reassurance that to reward me , made him happy and though squirming I would adjust my initial aversion/temperament. Due to inherent sagaciousness , I haven't travelled further than exploration in relationships that would require that level of reassurance as ongoing.

 

[ecstaticsub]

Straight out of the incredibly overpriced behavior modification textbook from my senior year as a psych major (with my less convoluted explanations in regular text):

"A positive reinforcer is an event that, when presented immediately following a behavior, causes the behavior to increase in frequency (or likelihood of occurrence). The term positive reinforcer is roughly synonymous with the word reward."

The definition without all the technical bs: "A positive reinforcer/reward is something that the person likes. Giving this reward after the person does something desirable will make that person more likely to do that something desirable again."

"A punisher is an event that, when presented immediately following a behavior, causes the behavior to decrease in frequency."

I say: "A punisher is exactly what it sounds like. It's unpleasant, so we hope to avoid it."

"In conjunction with the concept of positive reinforcer, the principle called positive reinforcement states that if, in a given situation, somebody does something that is followed immediately by a positive reinforcer, then that person is more likely to do the same thing again when he or she next encounters a similar situation."

I say: "This is actually a form of circular reasoning, but whatever. Positive reinforcement means giving a reward to someone after that person does something you like in hopes of teaching them to do that same thing again."

"Escape conditioning (or negative reinforcement) is similar to aversive punishment in that both involve the use of an aversive stimulus (or punisher). Procedurally, however, escape conditioning/negative reinforcement and punishment differ interms of both the antecedents and the consequences of behavior. With regards to antecedents, in escape conditioning (negative reinforcement), the aversive stimulus must be present prior to a response, whereas the aversive stimulus is not present prior to a response that is punished. With regard to consequences, in escape conditioning (negative reinforcement) the aversive event is removed immediately following a response, whereas in punishment the aversive stimulus (or punisher) is presented immediately following a response."

I say: "In negative reinforcement (escape conditioning), a dominant would whip you until you finished a task. Your 'reward' when you completed it would be that the whipping stopped. In punishment, you'd be whipped if you didn't complete the task."

"The principle of avoidance conditioning states that a behavior will increase in frequency if it prevents an aversive stimulus from occurring."

I say: "Avoidance conditioning would be where the submissive knows the dominant will beat them if they don't do what they're supposed to do. The sub will do the task(s) to avoid being whipped."

"Penalties consist of timeout and response cost. Timeout involves transferring an individual from a more reinforcing to a less reinforcing situation following a particular behavior. Response cost involves the removal of a specified amount of reinforcer following a particular behavior."

I say: "Penalties would be something like a dominant putting a submissive in the corner for a misbehavior (timeout) or taking away internet privileges for a set amount of time (response cost)."

"Punishment consists of physical (aversive) punishers and reprimands. Physical (aversive) punishers include such things as spankings, pinches, electric shock, ammonia vapor, cool baths, loud or harsh sounds, prolonged tickling, and hair tugging. Such stimuli or events are called unconditioned punishers (that is, stimuli that are punishing without any prior training or conditioning). Reprimands are strong negative verbal stimuli contingent on behavior. They also usually include a fixed stare and, sometimes, a firm grasp. They are usually conditioned punishers."

I say: "Punishment can be physical or verbal. A physical punishment would be a caning, and a verbal one would be a stern talking-to. The difference between penalty and punishment is that penalties are something taken away, while punishments are something given."


I'm sorry I'm such a dork, but I had to specify. It was driving me nuts.

All of the above parts in italics were taken from Behavior Modification: What It Is and How to Do It, Seventh Edition, by Garry Martin and Joseph Pear.

ETA: I see BB beat me to it. Thanks for the better (and shorter!) explanation.

okay...I guess I won't ever talk about punishments/penalities or rewards again.

Seriously, to the "untrained thinker" that I now assume I am, does it really matter what term is used?

 

[DrummerBoy418]

Simply put, there is no right or wrong. You have to be patient enough to learn how your partner likes it and then do it that way. And they should be able to do the same for you.

It's a simple matter of preference, and not of correct vs. incorrect.

Besides that, everyone is going to have a different defenition of "reward" and "punishment" and that further complicates matters. To some, "punishment" might be seen as a "reward," therefore making a "reward" a "punishment."

Simply put, it's all about individual taste. I myself tend to respond more to positive reenforcement, but then, I've dated girls who prefered the exact opposite of that.

 

[BiBunny]

okay...I guess I won't ever talk about punishments/penalities or rewards again.

Seriously, to the "untrained thinker" that I now assume I am, does it really matter what term is used?

If I insulted you, I didn't mean to. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. It matters to me what term is used because I want to be sure we're talking about the same thing, but feel free to use whatever word you like to describe whatever you're talking about.

 

[ecstaticsub]

If I insulted you, I didn't mean to. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. It matters to me what term is used because I want to be sure we're talking about the same thing, but feel free to use whatever word you like to describe whatever you're talking about.

It's ok, I wasn't insulted. But be warned that I will most likely make the same mistake again since the differences don't mean alot to me.

 

[BiBunny]

It's ok, I wasn't insulted. But be warned that I will most likely make the same mistake again since the differences don't mean alot to me.

It's ok. I'm just a nerd who likes to be overly technical about things. My problem, not yours.

 

[lk70]

All the terms are important of course, but what it boils down to for me is, something you like and want vs something you don't.

 

[Puman]

...
If you want to beat on me, just say so (or just tie me down and start doing it). I can understand that a whole lot better than I can understand "punishing" a grown woman who has a mind of her own.
...

Here here! With you 100%.

 

[Femme_Noir]

My last Dom actually never rewarded me, he would say him fucking me was my reward. He was a sadistic bastard, but I stayed with him longer than any other relationship. which I guess says more about me than anything...

 

[Life_Noir]

Cynical as I may be sometimes...I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement.
"Punishment" should be a seldom, if ever, thing.

 

[Femme_Noir]

Cynical as I may be sometimes...I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement.
"Punishment" should be a seldom, if ever, thing.

tell that to my ex, he would punish me constantly

 

[BiBunny]

My last Dom actually never rewarded me, he would say him fucking me was my reward. He was a sadistic bastard, but I stayed with him longer than any other relationship. which I guess says more about me than anything...

I'd have laughed my ass off at that one.

 

[Life_Noir]

tell that to my ex, he would punish me constantly

Hmmm I suppose at this point, I ask you to define "punish". As performed by said ex.
There are those that are just professionally clueless... I use whoever is in charge of programming for HBO as a prime example.

 

[Femme_Noir]

I'd have laughed my ass off at that one.

I sometimes did. But he was a gooooood fuck.

 

[Femme_Noir]

Hmmm I suppose at this point, I ask you to define "punish". As performed by said ex.
There are those that are just professionally clueless... I use whoever is in charge of programming for HBO as a prime example.

His most common punishment was a spanking, or a humiliation of some kind. But he could get very rough too.

 

[RJMasters]

There are those that are just professionally clueless... I use whoever is in charge of programming for HBO as a prime example.

lol this was pretty damn funny.

As to my feelings of punishment and reward.... it just sounds too much like hamsterville to me.

I think when you have a relationship between two consenting adults, and the relationship is growing, full of passion...the rewards come naturally enough for both involved.

To me its all about consequences. The things we say and do will lead to consequences. Consequences can be either good or they can be bad.

Reward and punishment "to me" is much more intuitive by naure.

 

[catalina_francisco]

We use both rewards and punishments depending on the moment, mood, timing. I guess for us we have gotten past the stage of psychanalysing most things and go with what feels right for us at that time. We also don't compare ourselves with what others do to decide what we do, just doesn't make sense for us.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

We use both rewards and punishments depending on the moment, mood, timing. I guess for us we have gotten past the stage of psychanalysing most things and go with what feels right for us at that time. We also don't compare ourselves with what others do to decide what we do, just doesn't make sense for us.

Catalina

This is about what I would answer except that we don't do punishments. We both find that condescending. I can't even imagine punishment or doing anything that would warrent it. I'm sure he can't, either. We're "past the stage", also.

The reward? Being together, waking up together (when we're both not job traveling.) That seems to be enough for both of us.



Oh... and those blingy, shiny things. aaaaaaaaahahahahaha!

 

[Blushing Bottom]

I have worked in the psych field for 16 years.

I couldn't help myself.

I teach in an Applied Behavioristic environment and was just sitting on my hands. Thank you ladies!

 

[JMohegan]

What if the sub does something special for her master? Say, prepares a special dinner for friends, coworkers or family. Does she ever get a reward for something like that? Like maybe a nice dinner out, or maybe a sexual favor she enjoys? Or is she expected to do things like that because the dom demands it?

That last bit is true for me. Anything I tell her to do, she's expected to do simply because I told her to. Period.

Of course, her obedience in general helps to keep me happy, relaxed, satisfied, and frequently aroused. None of that is a reward per se, but it is clearly preferable to the alternative!

I am not interested in behavior modification of the types described in BiBunny's very useful post 23.

However, I do make a conscious effort to understand a partner's needs, wants, desires, and points of pleasure - both large and small, physical and otherwise. Judicious delivery of that which she craves goes a long, long way in inspiring her to give me what I need.

 

[myinnerslut]

i just remembered as i was thinking back and figured id throw it out in this thread

my AV was a reward for good behavior and good grades. i didnt get it untill well over 500 posts, but when he felt i deserved it we spent all night designing it.

 

[RJMasters]

That last bit is true for me. Anything I tell her to do, she's expected to do simply because I told her to. Period.

Of course, her obedience in general helps to keep me happy, relaxed, satisfied, and frequently aroused. None of that is a reward per se, but it is clearly preferable to the alternative!

I am not interested in behavior modification of the types described in BiBunny's very useful post 23.

However, I do make a conscious effort to understand a partner's needs, wants, desires, and points of pleasure - both large and small, physical and otherwise. Judicious delivery of that which she craves goes a long, long way in inspiring her to give me what I need.

Nicely said.

 

[CutieMouse]

However, I do make a conscious effort to understand a partner's needs, wants, desires, and points of pleasure - both large and small, physical and otherwise. Judicious delivery of that which she craves goes a long, long way in inspiring her to give me what I need.

Positive feedback loops are far more enjoyable than fearing screwing up/dealing with someone who keeps screwing up.

 

[FurryFury]

Positive feedback loops are far more enjoyable than fearing screwing up/dealing with someone who keeps screwing up.

To me the best of all possible worlds would be a positive feedback loop with the edge of fear / excitement to spice it. Screwing up is not part of that at all though.

 

[deadselly]

In my relationship, a punishment is some kind of abuse, sexual or physical, and as I'm a pain slut as much as I'm a submissive, these are usually rewards in and of themselves. I like being chided; I like being scolded. I like having things forced on me. Of course, I like the murmurs of "Good girl," just the same; I never really looked at that as a reward, but I suppose it is.

Even things like orgasm denial or restraint from any kind of sexual pleasure as a punishment are things I enjoy; I am addicted to suffering, I suppose, so it's hard to punish me properly.

As I'm far from being in a full time slave relationship, I've never been given things like writing lines or silly things like that to do; my boyfriend calls it a waste of time and I'm inclined to agree with him, as it's better time we could have spent fucking or cuddling or playing crazy online games.

But then, we're far from the traditional BDSM couple, it would seem.

All that said, I prefer punishments, I think; but then, you can't honestly call them punishments when I'm concerned and he's the one giving it to me.