Right on J. Doe

[Angeline]

good morning, missing person.

that's what makes the world go 'round - lots of ways to skin a cat, and all that.

i use "total disregard for a poet's ego" as a direct quote from YDD - and also,
"ego is toxic to creativity." those are words she used to me, and to others i know of.

and i agree with them 100%.

and 1201 started this thread, i think, simply to compare the similarities of YDD's method of criticism and the recent critiques left by J. Doe.

I'm not skinning cats. I'm critiquing poems. I assumed those comments came from YDD. I agree that they may be true, but I prefer total objectivity. She, however, was great because she never--at least to me--made a generalization without also being specific.

I haven't found anyone else here who achieves that balance. What I see here is what I described in my original post.

That's what *I* think 100%.

Negative reinforcement rarely works--and when it does, it tends to leave a negative half-life behind.

I believe I understood the intent of the thread, but I assume it's still ok to offer an opinion here that goes beyond the thread's intent and encompasses related issues. Do I misunderstand that?

Literotica unlike most literary journals and ezines does not, as you know, have an editorial board. Maybe it should but as of now it doesn't. Thus, the site tends to attract people who may not care about "real" poetry or have a desire to be taught how to write it--assuming there are people who know how to teach it.

I'm not trying to be rude, Patrick, but that is an opinion I have--and have had for a long time. I feel strongly about it and have found my way to work in my experience.

 

[Angeline]

Thank you, Ange! You had said something similar a long time ago, and I'm glad to hear it again, especially from someone who knows from whence they speak. I was in Management training classes and was taught the same thing. Praise what a person does well, before bringing up their errors, and don't bring he saids/she saids into it at all.

Thank you.



He is?? Why??

You're welcome, sister.

 

[PatCarrington]

I'm not skinning cats. I'm critiquing poems. I assumed those comments came from YDD. I agree that they may be true, but I prefer total objectivity. She, however, was great because she never--at least to me--made a generalization without also being specific.

I haven't found anyone else here who achieves that balance. What I see here is what I described in my original post.

That's what *I* think 100%.

Negative reinforcement rarely works--and when it does, it tends to leave a negative half-life behind.

I believe I understood the intent of the thread, but I assume it's still ok to offer an opinion here that goes beyond the thread's intent and encompasses related issues. Do I misunderstand that?

Literotica unlike most literary journals and ezines does not, as you know, have an editorial board. Maybe it should but as of now it doesn't. Thus, the site tends to attract people who may not care about "real" poetry or have a desire to be taught how to write it--assuming there are people who know how to teach it.

I'm not trying to be rude, Patrick, but that is an opinion I have--and have had for a long time. I feel strongly about it and have found it to work in my experience.

you do not misunderstand, and you are never rude.

everyone is always free to offer opinion, and others to disagree. if that were not the case, why even be here, or anywhere?

i happen to think that negative reinforcement does work in critique, when used properly. i think it tends to shake a potentially good writer off any pedestal they may have placed themselves on, and make them more open to objectivity and suggestion. as published writers, we know that once our words are public, they belong to any eyes that read them. and i know i personally have benefitted from many tongue lashings about my writing, from YDD and countless others. much of it was brutal - and i had the choice to walk away injured, or assess the possibility that maybe they were right in whole or in part.

YDD did achieve a perfect balance, in my opinion. she was elderly, and very experienced.

it is not an easy tightrope to walk as a critic, and even she was blasted up and down literotica's front lines, if you recall.

 

[RhymeFairy]

08-25-2005, 04:00 PM
RhymeFairy
Literotica Guru Join Date: May 2005
Location: RhymeVille~
Posts: 933


~ posted on the * Keep The Boards Clean *
last Sunday 08-21-05



Hi ya AGAIN (her, does she never get offline, lol) ...

I HAVE to Thank Rybka for the warm, comments and great commentary on the new poem reviews, this am ~!!!

I sometimes post two at a time. This was one of those days. I have mixed thoughts on both, just let me say ....

I had 2 people (so far) who remain kinda (J. Doe?) Anonymous, who have commented on my poems today. I just have to make this comment and THAT WILL BE THAT ....

I Do have my comments open for public feedback. ALL public feedback.
OK so some hate my stuff ... no biggie it is public forum and I always leave myself open to these comments... Take the good with the bad so to speak. Also J.Doe has a point, a lotta peeps use similar words me included. Just depends on what context and flow you use, how you paint the picture of what you want to show ... feel ...

just me ... grins ... No harm done ~ winks*

One more thing if I may.

Thank you LeBroz and Jenn
for stickin up for me, BUT
I know, I DO need to grow
as a poet, in saying that ...

Thank You J. Doe for your honesty and for taking the time, (I know you took some time, you even came back and re-commented, grins*) to read and give me your opinion on what I need to do ... to be a better poet.
*My Heels are off to you. Thank You J. Doe ~

See peeps, sometimes being anonymous
works out better then we have all
been lead to believe, IMHO ~

My Warmest Thanks and Highest regards
to those who take the time to read my poetry,
vote and comment.
*Bows* to you ALL ~!!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just saw this thread. I like where this is going.
As you all can see I was well impressed with
J. Doe's comments.
Just Me, Just saying ~

 

[Rybka]

. . .
YDD did achieve a perfect balance, in my opinion. she was elderly, and very experienced.

it is not an easy tightrope to walk as a critic, and even she was blasted up and down literotica's front lines, if you recall.

YDD was a commercially published author, both prose and poetry, both fiction and non. She never posted any of her work here and was attacked because she didn't. - She was dying when she came to Literotica and knew it, yet gave us time that took away from her last work which I my don't think she finished.
I think she knew that if her work were available then it would be attacked and that it would be used to diminish the the purity of her criticism. (Sort of a, "You don't like poem? WELL, I'LL SHOW YOU!! TAKE THAT and THAT. . . you don't write so damn good either, BITCH!). - I have taken a leaf from her book and since I began reviewing again, I now post very little work on Lit. - I suppose to be true to her ideal I should turn Voting and Public Comments off, but I enjoy counting the number of votes and comments compared to the number of views.

YDD and I often disagreed (especially about my work ), but she was open and honest in what she said.

R.I.P.

 

[Angeline]

you do not misunderstand, and you are never rude.

everyone is always free to offer opinion, and others to disagree. if that were not the case, why even be here, or anywhere?

i happen to think that negative reinforcement does work in critique, when used properly. i think it tends to shake a potentially good writer off any pedestal they may have placed themselves on, and make them more open to objectivity and suggestion. as published writers, we know that once our words are public, they belong to any eyes that read them. and i know i personally have benefitted from many tongue lashings about my writing, from YDD and countless others. much of it was brutal - and i had the choice to walk away injured, or assess the possibility that maybe they were right in whole or in part.

YDD did achieve a perfect balance, in my opinion. she was elderly, and very experienced.

it is not an easy tightrope to walk as a critic, and even she was blasted up and down literotica's front lines, if you recall.

I do recall, and I felt bad about it at the time. I think people completely misunderstood her intent, but she did not have her ego involved--that was clear--and blasting didn't seem to bother her, not really.

I have been helped, too, by others who are honest. Honesty is desirable.

I, however, learn better when my ass is not being kicked in the process, and I think there are many others like me. Therefore, I don't make assumptions about who needs what kind of critique unless I know the writer or they have been up front about wanting that kind of openess.

There's a time issue, too. I don't care to invest my time in scouring someone's poem only to find out they never wanted that. That just wastes both our time and I simply don't have enough of it to waste on someone who doesn't care. YDD, sadly (because of her situation), did. She helped many here; she also put a lot of time into trying to help people who showed themselves to be indifferent or defensive.

And you Patrick are savvy in this. You are aware that you have a choice between walking away insulted and digging your toes in and learning. You have made it clear from the start that you want critique that facilitates the latter. We don't know though whether someone else wants that unless they say so, and that means we may simply discourage a new writer who could have been encouraged with a more gentle approach. Does anyone really want to discourage someone who may have real promise but needs help? If the answer is "no," wouldn't it make more sense to feel the situation out first and proceed accordingly?

Of course I recognize that when one makes one's writing public, one must accept that negative critique is part of the package. Yes, people should understand that, but they often don't. I've been around a while and I know that's how it works, but not everyone is like me. That's why I like to try to find out what the person wants and/or encourage them first to gain some trust before I potentially damage.

 

[tungtied2u]

Some people are teachers
and know how to guide
some sit in the bleechers
enjoying the ride
in the corners sit those
who debase and deride

others get in your face
tell you what to do
odds are in this life
you'll meet quite a few
but the best are the ones
who show you something new

an approach, a tool,
a turn of phrase
that lifts your mindset
to the next phase
especially when done
with compassion and grace

 

[Du Lac]

Once again I wholeheartedly agree with Angeline. This is what I have been trying to say all along. I usually do leave some form of positive instruction on a poem that I feel has potential. Once some pointers have been made I only continue if the poets asks for help or in the case of Bite by RF ... I asked if I may play with the poem to exhibit the changes I mentioned. I told her where I would post it... and did so with the original poem asking for permission to continue. Only when she granted this did I play with her poem. This method works well for me. I myself do not do well with negative feedback. My issue.... coming from a mental and physically abusive childhood, I have made the choice to not allow that energy into my life anymore. Hence why I avoid such threads.

We never know what is going on with a poet or writer until we communicate openly with them. While I say hats off to Pat for his ability to accept harsh judgment I know from personal experience as a coach that you get more bees with honey than vinegar. Now this is not to be taken as sugar them up, but rather ... be objective and work through empathy. We all have egos willing to admit it or not. It is harder yes to be good than bad.. but when you make it a habit and do it over and over... it is done without thought.

I feel we must respect, new and older poets here. When we are open, honest and respectful with our thoughts on a poem.. not the poet.. but a poem then we as a poet and person grow.

Thank you all for relating and debating this subject, without name calling, insult and total disregard for others feelings. My faith has been restored.

blessings
du lac~

 

[PatCarrington]

I do recall, and I felt bad about it at the time. I think people completely misunderstood her intent, but she did not have her ego involved--that was clear--and blasting didn't seem to bother her, not really.

I have been helped, too, by others who are honest. Honesty is desirable.

I, however, learn better when my ass is not being kicked in the process, and I think there are many others like me. Therefore, I don't make assumptions about who needs what kind of critique unless I know the writer or they have been up front about wanting that kind of openess.

There's a time issue, too. I don't care to invest my time in scouring someone's poem only to find out they never wanted that. That just wastes both our time and I simply don't have enough of it to waste on someone who doesn't care. YDD, sadly (because of her situation), did. She helped many here; she also put a lot of time into trying to help people who showed themselves to be indifferent or defensive.

And you Patrick are savvy in this. You are aware that you have a choice between walking away insulted and digging your toes in and learning. You have made it clear from the start that you want critique that facilitates the latter. We don't know though whether someone else wants that unless they say so, and that means we may simply discourage a new writer who could have been encouraged with a more gentle approach. Does anyone really want to discourage someone who may have real promise but needs help? If the answer is "no," wouldn't it make more sense to feel the situation out first and proceed accordingly?

Of course I recognize that when one makes one's writing public, one must accept that negative critique is part of the package. Yes, people should understand that, but they often don't. I've been around a while and I know that's how it works, but not everyone is like me. That's why I like to try to find out what the person wants and/or encourage them first to gain some trust before I potentially damage.

the reason i stopped commenting almost totally on new poems is the very reason you state - that i was putting time and effort into giving honest opinion to writers who apparently didn't want it, or only wanted it when it was laudatory.

i have a strong suspicion that anyone like that, or anyone who does choose to walk away injured from constructive critique, would never have become a better writer anyway.

discouraging a writer of real potential is not something i ever want to do, nor do i wish them to think that i believe their writing is good when i don't think it is. and i am not a fan of harsh critique without explanation or suggestion, as you know from reading the critiques i give on the threads.

being a teacher, i understand the need to treat everyone as an individual. i just can't ever remember a student, or writer, whose skills advanced from false praise. in my experience, they stagnate.

i know tons who progressed through thoughtful but stiff critique, praise only when it was called for, chiding only when it was called for - and always with at least a hint of encourgement and direction.

that is a mouthful to chew even when you do it for a living, never mind on 3-line poetry critiques at Literotica.

 

[RhymeFairy]

Once again I wholeheartedly agree with Angeline. This is what I have been trying to say all along. I usually do leave some form of positive instruction on a poem that I feel has potential. Once some pointers have been made I only continue if the poets asks for help or in the case of Bite by RF ... I asked if I may play with the poem to exhibit the changes I mentioned. I told her where I would post it... and did so with the original poem asking for permission to continue. Only when she granted this did I play with her poem. This method works well for me. I myself do not do well with negative feedback. My issue.... coming from a mental and physically abusive childhood, I have made the choice to not allow that energy into my life anymore. Hence why I avoid such threads.

Thank you all for relating and debating this subject, without name calling, insult and total disregard for others feelings. My faith has been restored.

blessings
du lac~

Du,

You did a wonderful job too. I love the *new* poem !!!
I also, have a lil to say, if I may. I too, have told a few peeps here.
I HATE confertations. So if someone makes a comment or a remark to me that is offensive, ( not honest critique ) then I get very defensive. I might not ... NO, normally I do not respond to that kind of remark. It really serves no purpose, except a cat-fight might commence, lol. Or a pissing contest, whatever the case my be. *Grins*

Think that is in all of us. If someone *hits* you either hit back, run, or freeze. So it is up to all of us individually what our reactions shall be.
every action~has a reaction

Also, for those who have had, some form of abuse in their lives, then these offensive remarks also, tend to bring back a lot of bad memories, ... reactions. One can never tell what will happen when a nerve is hit. Du, I am not just saying this because of your statement, I can only say, I am in TOTAL agreement my friend !!

So in conclusion ... In MY opinion we are all here to learn, write, support each other (good ways please) , get constructive feedback/criticism on our poetry, make friends and have a lil fun if we can. So lets all write, be friends, and have fun. Oh if it were only that easy ... eh ~

Again, I do Thank J. Doe for the HONEST feedback and for being so kind in doing so ...

Just my opinions ~

 

[Angeline]

the reason i stopped commenting almost totally on new poems is the very reason you state - that i was putting time and effort into giving honest opinion to writers who apparently didn't want it, or only wanted it when it was laudatory.

i have a strong suspicion that anyone like that, or anyone who does choose to walk away injured from constructive critique, would never have become a better writer anyway.

discouraging a writer of real potential is not something i ever want to do, nor do i wish them to think that i believe their writing is good when i don't think it is. and i am not a fan of harsh critique without explanation or suggestion, as you know from reading the critiques i give on the threads.

being a teacher, i understand the need to treat everyone as an individual. i just can't ever remember a student, or writer, whose skills advanced from false praise. in my experience, they stagnate.

i know tons who progressed through thoughtful but stiff critique, praise only when it was called for, chiding only when it was called for - and always with at least a hint of encourgement and direction.

that is a mouthful to chew even when you do it for a living, never mind on 3-line poetry critiques at Literotica.

False praise is not something I advocate. Encouragement is not false praise. I can look at a piece of writing that I think has many many problems and also see good things in it. I can see potentials if certain changes are made. If I only point out the good, that is not false praise but misleading. If I only point out what isn't working and don't give the writer anything positive to take from my comment I may unintentionally discourage that person. I think most people who are sincere in their desire to grow would not just walk away from objective criticism, but some people are young and have tender egos. Even more experienced people cycle in and out of confidence. I'm sensitive to that. That is what du is saying about a little honey with the vinegar helping.

I think it is quite easy to be objectively critical and respectful at once. I do not understand why anyone would want to be otherwise. To me, gentility married to objectivity is a more evolved way to teach. I also think to pass on that approach is a gift that I have both received and try to give.

 

[eagleyez]

John Doe

Frontman for X

Sang amazing harmony with Exene.

Played a Fender P like it was goin outa style.

 

[champagne1982]

It is exhausting to give fair and objective critique to everyone, all of the time. That's why public comments are good as eyecatchers, nothing more. They're like snippets of reviews used on paperbacks to grab a limited market.

When I write a comment (which is rarely) I try to keep them positive and reflect a good opinion of a poem. Meanspirited comments deserve deletion by the poet because, unfortunately, they are a breeding ground for negative thoughts.

I am not denigrating constructive feedback here, far from it. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is why waste energy on writing an insightful critique on a poem you don't like's comment board, when to not comment at all would be a better use of your time?

 

[Angeline]

John Doe

Frontman for X

Sang amazing harmony with Exene.

Played a Fender P like it was goin outa style.

Who else but you?

Good song, eagleyez.

 

[PatCarrington]

False praise is not something I advocate. Encouragement is not false praise. I can look at a piece of writing that I think has many many problems and also see good things in it. I can see potentials if certain changes are made. If I only point out the good, that is not false praise but misleading. If I only point out what isn't working and don't give the writer anything positive to take from my comment I may unintentionally discourage that person. I think most people who are sincere in their desire to grow would not just walk away from objective criticism, but some people are young and have tender egos. Even more experienced people cycle in and out of confidence. I'm sensitive to that. That is what du is saying about a little honey with the vinegar helping.

I think it is quite easy to be objectively critical and respectful at once. I do not understand why anyone would want to be otherwise. To me, gentility married to objectivity is a more evolved way to teach. I also think to pass on that approach is a gift that I have both received and try to give.

i agree, ang. encouragement is beneficial, as long as it's married to objectivity.

i just realized, by her reaction, that it was a poem by RhymeFairy where the comment in question was left.

i just went and read J. Doe's comment, as well as the other comments on the poem.

to me, J Doe's comment DOES seem to be encouraging RhymeFairy, praising her attitude and obvious efforts - while at the same time opining that her poetry needs work, and suggesting how that might be achieved.

so it leaves her without discouragement, as her thanks to J. Doe show - and it also leaves her with the chance to assess whether J. Doe is right or wrong.

there are a lot of comments on the poem, and J. Doe's seems to be the most helpful one to the writer.

and now i am lost as to what is objectionable about the comment - we must remember it was written to the writer of the poem, and not to us readers of comments.

 

[Tathagata]

i have a strong suspicion that anyone like that, or anyone who does choose to walk away injured from constructive critique, would never have become a better writer anyway.

The whole problem with this is...it sounds an awful lot like " If they don't like what "the reviewer" says they are walking away from constructive criticism.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

When anyone leaves a comment or advice it is OPINION.
No one is right, no one is wrong.

All someone can do is offer their opinion as educated or uneducated as it may be.
What the poet does from there is out of your hands.
It's the spirit of the critique that's important...not whether they follow your advice or not.



And I find the inclusion of " that person isn't doing you any favors" both unnecessary and arrogant.

The truth does not have to be blunt and mean spirited.

I will be taking a break from here.
The voting is off on my poetry and I will be removing them slowly as I save them to disc and submit them.

I learned a lot here, I have a long way to go.
Writing was always something I did because I had to, and because it was fun.
It has stopped being fun here.

We all go through periods of transition.
I am in one now.

I need to clear my head a little
I'm sure I will see you all around


be well

Namste'

 

[Angeline]

i agree, ang. encouragement is beneficial, as long as it's married to objectivity.

i just realized, by her reaction, that it was a poem by RhymeFairy where the comment in question was left.

i just went and read J. Doe's comment, as well as the other comments on the poem.

to me, J Doe's comment DOES seem to be encouraging RhymeFairy, praising her attitude and obvious efforts - while at the same time opining that her poetry needs work, and suggesting how that might be achieved.

so it leaves her without discouragement, as her thanks to J. Doe show - and it also leaves her with the chance to assess whether J. Doe is right or wrong.

there are a lot of comments on the poem, and J. Doe's seems to be the most helpful one to the writer.

and now i am lost as to what is objectionable about the comment - we must remember it was written to the writer of the poem, and not to us readers of comments.

I haven't read any of the poems or comments and I have no idea who J Doe is or what he/she said. I'm only talking generally about what I believe.

 

[Angeline]

The whole problem with this is...it sounds an awful lot like " If they don't like what "the reviewer" says they are walking away from constructive criticism.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

When anyone leaves a comment or advice it is OPINION.
No one is right, no one is wrong.

All someone can do is offer their opinion as educated or uneducated as it may be.
What the poet does from there is out of your hands.
It's the spirit of the critique that's important...not whether they follow your advice or not.



And I find the inclusion of " that person isn't doing you any favors" both unnecessary and arrogant.

The truth does not have to be blunt and mean spirited.

I will be taking a break from here.
The voting is off on my poetry and I will be removing them slowly as I save them to disc and submit them.

I learned a lot here, I have a long way to go.
Writing was always something I did because I had to, and because it was fun.
It has stopped being fun here.

We all go through periods of transition.
I am in one now.

I need to clear my head a little
I'm sure I will see you all around


be well

Namste'

Yes you will.

 

[ruminator]

.


...I'm just happy to be here.



Greetings all.

 

[PatCarrington]

The whole problem with this is...it sounds an awful lot like " If they don't like what "the reviewer" says they are walking away from constructive criticism.

I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

I'm sure I will see you all around


be well

Namste'

no, that is not what i meant at all.

by "walk away", i meant to stop writing altogether, not simply disagreeing.

be well, boston.

 

[quietpoet]

Agreed

This is an excellent point. If I can only add one thing to it that you insinuated, often it is the ego of the reviewer that comes into play also. Objectivity and poetry are not necessarily in alignment.

qp

The whole problem with this is...it sounds an awful lot like " If they don't like what "the reviewer" says they are walking away from constructive criticism.
I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

When anyone leaves a comment or advice it is OPINION.
No one is right, no one is wrong.

All someone can do is offer their opinion as educated or uneducated as it may be.
What the poet does from there is out of your hands.
It's the spirit of the critique that's important...not whether they follow your advice or not.



And I find the inclusion of " that person isn't doing you any favors" both unnecessary and arrogant.

The truth does not have to be blunt and mean spirited.

I will be taking a break from here.
The voting is off on my poetry and I will be removing them slowly as I save them to disc and submit them.

I learned a lot here, I have a long way to go.
Writing was always something I did because I had to, and because it was fun.
It has stopped being fun here.

We all go through periods of transition.
I am in one now.

I need to clear my head a little
I'm sure I will see you all around


be well

Namste'

 

[Tathagata]

no, that is not what i meant at all.

by "walk away", i meant to stop writing altogether, not simply disagreeing.

be well, boston.

I understand
rest assured i'll never stop writing


be well yourself NY

 

[PatCarrington]

I haven't read any of the poems or comments and I have no idea who J Doe is or what he/she said. I'm only talking generally about what I believe.

oh...

gotcha.

well anyway, i see now why 1201 liked the comment - he even said that next to it, his own comments have been failures.

 

[PatCarrington]

I understand
rest assured i'll never stop writing


be well yourself NY

i know that.

you better not...you are just too damned good at it.

 

[Du Lac]

Tath..

I am sorry to see you go.. I have learned much from reading your poetry, as well as Angelines and Eves. I hope you find what you are looking for.
blessings
du lac~