Right on J. Doe

[eagleyez]

Who else but you?

Good song, eagleyez.

"Johnny hit and run Pauline" is one of my favs by them.

Its about Exene's sister.

 

[Angeline]

"Johnny hit and run Pauline" is one of my favs by them.

Its about Exene's sister.

Yes. I've heard you sing it...Well, say it.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

since we are laying our cards and thoughts on the table here,


ang's comment is what I am all about...

<clip>
Of course I recognize that when one makes one's writing public, one must accept that negative critique is part of the package. Yes, people should understand that, but they often don't. I've been around a while and I know that's how it works, but not everyone is like me. That's why I like to try to find out what the person wants and/or encourage them first to gain some trust before I potentially damage.


thank you grasshopper I couldn't have said it better my self
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this sums it up in a nut shell to a degree, In the studio when a new student comes in they are scared stiff, I dont put them in front of a higher ranking belt, or even allow them to confront a bag till they learn to stand. When they have learned the 'Stance and Balance' then move forward.

I have seen it here so many times where a new poet comes and gets this harsh critic on their first couple posts and they are nipped at for what they feel is an emotions or tale in write. You (?) know they are proud of this and my next point

this disecting poems I don't understand because when a poet writes they are writing about what they saw with certain emotions, the then....poetry in it's purest form, then some one comes along and says this will make it better, but it is not what that person relayed but what two people pieced together to make it ...better....okay but then I read where you say a poem is never finished....so why cant a critic say great start now do this...instead, ego- blasting, we have all read the "your poems no good" comments. I can't make people be happier or friendlier, I can encourage and counter balance this action. yin yang

I may be sandpaper here, but I will lay my cards on the table and say...
I wasn't put on this earth to win a popularity contest nor be the worlds greatest poet. But I love poetry. and I enjoy coming here each night and letting my day turn poetically into the night. this I share, with those I don't see eye to eye to.

"What...another YDD..?" <GRIN>

BOWS HUMBLE TO YDD ....R.I.P.
our PM encounters were enlightening,

<winks at J Doe>.....(~_*).....<bigrin> my next friend

 

[anonamouse]

Well said, du.

There is a big difference between objective critque and "ego bruising." How such "tough love" furthers anyone's writing is lost on me. Sorry all you arbiters of what is right for poetry but I think all you do is make others who are less confident feel inferior. Maybe that makes the commenter feel like a better poet or reader of poetry, but how does it help the person who posted the poem?

I love comments like:

Your poem has cliche here and here and here. Here are ways to avoid cliche.

The verb tenses here and here are different and therefore I don't understand what lines x and y are intended to mean.

You need to run a spell check and/or edit your poem because the errors are detracting from the reader's ability to understand/appreciate your writing.

You've mixed your metaphors and it affects meaning. Here is one way you could fix it.

Those are examples of objective criticism. They are specific. They help a writer reconstruct the poem so that it communicates, creates images, does whatever it is supposed to do more effectively. They are appropriate for someone who wants to write a better poem.

These comments, on the other hand are not.

Your poem is no good, and your friends aren't helping you by saying it is.

Get over your ego and learn to write.

People admire and drool all over you, but your writing is weak.

Write this way/like this person and you will be a better poet.

They generalize and make judgments about the poet and his or her friends that may or may not be true, but have nothing to do with the writing--the lines, the words and the way they are cobbled together. They are appropriate for bashing the ego of the poet and, perhaps, stroking that of the commenter. They make newbies who are unsure of whether they even belong in a poetry community want to go away.

I don't see how such "feedback" serves any positive purpose, but if one disagrees and feels compelled to psychoanalyze the poet, why not send an email or a pm? What is the purpose of doing otherwise? Making public flogging part of the poet's "growth"?

Personally, I think people who generalize this way in comments do so because they are unable to be precise about how to improve a poem or they don't know enough about the techniques of writing poems to say anything specific. YDD was someone I respected because while she would say a poem was weak or undeserving of the high votes others gave it, she also was spot on about why she thought this. I never saw her comments as meanspirited. I don't respect meanspirited.

People have different reasons for writing. Some people want to be praised, period. Who am I to judge that? The ones who honestly want to learn and improve make themselves known.

Just my opinion, of course, but I like to think it's an educated one.

my opinon - leave some
you and Rybka
The few I see of yours, have not been specific, generally glowing for people that do not need anymore "glowing" I have seen none of Rybka's. Take the heat, both of you, the place would be so much better, share the education it is obvious both of you have it. Instead I see rather preachy sermons posted over here from both of you, show me, don't fuckin tell me

YDD had a knack of getting to the essence of the writer and poem, she was not always specific, but the few she left on mine, told me exactly what I needed to know, and I repeat they where not always specific. She assumed, as I assumed the intent of the comment would be read by the writer, she could be blunt and saracastic at times, but I am sure, it was concern for the art. All comments I have seen by YDD, I saw as wake-up calls. J. Doe does the same. 1201 tried, but left alot of fluff.
But I also said, that if anyone had a problem with score or comment, they are free to make an issue of it, prove it was not warrented, I would send a PM to Laurel and Manu and ask that it be changed. I don't believe anyone else has made that offer. BTW if anyone has a problem with my fluff comments, I offer the same.

Du, JennC, I saw that comment as a balance between two others, The one caustic comment I did not see, I assume it was so bad it was deleted. The one part of J Doe's comment I question was the reference to "smutty buddy". Again, I see the main reason for J.Doe's comment is concern for the poet and the art. I do not read into it a smug know it all attitude.

Thread after thread about mean YDD, silence over here, that's right, silence - fuck that, I praised her (as 1201)
I assumed soon, thread after thread about J. Doe - fuck that, preemptive stike.
I do not like ego destroying, anonamouse was created to go after that - but a little ego bruising, well, hell, if something is left undone, half-baked, fucked up, or just plain bad, I admire those who point it out. I have been a little more generous in the thank you's with those that point it out on mine, than the blind 5's.

This is the line and responsibilty of those that leave comments, how much criticism can that person handle, how much do you see, do you leave unsaid? How much can that person absorb?

The few comments I saw from J. Doe where provoking. All of YDD's comments where provoking. Ishtat leaves provoking comments. I hope as 1201, I left a few.

yes I know the meaning, I looked it up, here it is:

pro·voke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vk)
tr.v. pro·voked, pro·vok·ing, pro·vokes

1. To incite to anger or resentment.
2. To stir to action or feeling.
3. To give rise to; evoke: provoke laughter.
4. To bring about deliberately; induce: provoke a fight.

you can chose your own reaction

 

[Angeline]

my opinon - leave some
you and Rybka
The few I see of yours, have not been specific, generally glowing for people that do not need anymore "glowing" I have seen none of Rybka's. Take the heat, both of you, the place would be so much better, share the education it is obvious both of you have it. Instead I see rather preachy sermons posted over here from both of you, show me, don't fuckin tell me

YDD had a knack of getting to the essence of the writer and poem, she was not always specific, but the few she left on mine, told me exactly what I needed to know, and I repeat they where not always specific. She assumed, as I assumed the intent of the comment would be read by the writer, she could be blunt and saracastic at times, but I am sure, it was concern for the art. All comments I have seen by YDD, I saw as wake-up calls. J. Doe does the same. 1201 tried, but left alot of fluff.
But I also said, that if anyone had a problem with score or comment, they are free to make an issue of it, prove it was not warrented, I would send a PM to Laurel and Manu and ask that it be changed. I don't believe anyone else has made that offer. BTW if anyone has a problem with my fluff comments, I offer the same.

Du, JennC, I saw that comment as a balance between two others, The one caustic comment I did not see, I assume it was so bad it was deleted. The one part of J Doe's comment I question was the reference to "smutty buddy". Again, I see the main reason for J.Doe's comment is concern for the poet and the art. I do not read into it a smug know it all attitude.

Thread after thread about mean YDD, silence over here, that's right, silence - fuck that, I praised her (as 1201)
I assumed soon, thread after thread about J. Doe - fuck that, preemptive stike.
I do not like ego destroying anonamouse was created to go after that - but a little ego bruising, well, hell, if something is left undone, half-baked, fucked up, or just plain bad, I admire those who point it out. I have been a little more generous in the thank you's with those that point it out on mine, than the blind 5's.

This is the line and responsibilty of those that leave comments, how much criticism can that person handle, how much do you see, do you leave unsaid? How much can that person absorb?

The few comments I saw from J. Doe where provoking. All of YDD's comments where provoking. Ishtat leaves provoking comments. I hope as 1201, I left a few.

yes I know the meaning, I looked it up, here it is:

pro·voke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vk)
tr.v. pro·voked, pro·vok·ing, pro·vokes

1. To incite to anger or resentment.
2. To stir to action or feeling.
3. To give rise to; evoke: provoke laughter.
4. To bring about deliberately; induce: provoke a fight.

you can chose your own reaction

My comments in public are what they are because I don't offer more specific feedback unless people ask for it and then I tend to do it in a pm or email. What does "take the heat" mean? That I should feel guilty because I don't do things the way you approve of doing them?

Take a look at the progress thread and you'll see that I can and do give very specific feedback. I'm not mean about it, but I say what I think and people can choose to make changes or not. They're only my opinions, after all. I don't claim to know the correct way to write poetry--I only know what works for me. You might also want to note that the majority of my work on this "helpful" progress thread has been totally ignored--and when I got honest feedback it was almost always from the same two people. That's why I stopped putting in a lot of time there. It's disheartening to give and then get so little in return.

Anyway, fyi I get a few pm's almost every day from people asking me to privately take a look at their poems and tell them what I really think. I almost always do, and if I can't because I don't have time I say so.

Why does my method of critiquing disturb you? Why would you want to argue about that? I'm not into public flogging and I never will be. I think helping people discreetly and with kindness is a better way to go, so that's what I do. I honestly can't understand why you would care that I choose to approach this the way I do.

 

[Du Lac]

Hey Mouse...

Let me clarify my position on the J. Doe comment. If you read my response I said her other comments left were neutral. I just felt that the comments relating to "smutty buddy" and the hit at the "fluffy threads" were not needed on the comment board. This personal appraisal is better left to a PM or rewritten in a manner that is not so mean spirited. Both comments held emotional qualities that related to the ego of the reviewer (J. Doe) not to the welfare of the poet.

I am not saying you have to be sappy or overly kind. Objective and detached are more like it. These qualities are not exhibited in those comments. I read comments left on other poems by J. Doe and none had the dance of ego left behind. This is why I stated that this posting by her was not of a quality that is totally beneficial to the poet. I saw a personal agenda in the words left and this is not what I believe was the purpose of the comment.

I was not bashing J. Doe but trying to show how the comments left on Bite were biased compared to others left on other poems. If the reviewer wants to be taken seriously it is best to leave the ego behind. I was trying to show that J. Doe has and can influence the direction of the poet but, more will be accomplished without these direct emotional influences of the reviewer.

I am not always good at doing this. I try to stay away from the biased line. I read and critique on feeling first, which is not always what others say is the proper way to review a poem. This manner in which I work encompasses many things, I feel a poem not only from the use of unique visuals, but from the beat, the use of structure, the seduction of expanding knowledge and so many other influences. I usually read them 3 times. Some are painful, I will admit, but as I read over and over, I detach from the poem and see the technical aspects. Just how I work. I noticed that when I do not do this, I pick poems on just the emotional connection I do not always pick the poem that is structurally or grammatical correct. I also leave emotionally based comments. Sometimes good sometimes not what is needed for the poet. We are all learning here and if we are going to praise on reviewer then we need to take in all the comments left and not just one emotion injected post.

Maybe I was trying to relate my own learning experience of detachment in order to help the poet rise to a new level and share this lesson with J. Doe. Who knows, just my thoughts on the matter. One can take them or leave them, no worries. I can not change the world but I can change me. It is about walking the talk, not talking the walk.

blessings
Du lac

Too early to be thinking without fractal thinking related in my writing. I hope it is clear.... need more coffee and off to Dooms Day Sunday reviews.... A dark day today lol...
du
PS 2 and 3 work for me you can have 1 and 4... provoked

 

[anonamouse]

Ang
Both you and Rybka, I have respect for as writers, but both of you have a great capacity for really saying nothing.
as said, I see more preachy threads than comments,
if otherwise, I apologise.

 

[Angeline]

Ang
Both you and Rybka, I have respect for as writers, but both of you have a great capacity for really saying nothing.
as said, I see more preachy threads than comments,
if otherwise, I apologise.

I say what I want to say in public and I say more in private. I actually have a great capacity for discretion, but you are not aware of that because you don't pm me and ask me to critique stuff you write. I don't have any personal axe to grind with you either, but imo you shouldn't be so quick to judge someone who chooses to achieve the same purpose in a way different from yours.

There are plenty of people here and elsewhere who appreciate my approach.

Peace,
Ange

 

[anonamouse]

Hey Mouse...

Let me clarify my position on the J. Doe comment. If you read my response I said her other comments left were neutral. I just felt that the comments relating to "smutty buddy" and the hit at the "fluffy threads" were not needed on the comment board. This personal appraisal is better left to a PM or rewritten in a manner that is not so mean spirited. Both comments held emotional qualities that related to the ego of the reviewer (J. Doe) not to the welfare of the poet.

I
blessings
Du lac

Too early to be thinking without fractal thinking related in my writing. I hope it is clear.... need more coffee and off to Dooms Day Sunday reviews.... A dark day today lol...
du
PS 2 and 3 work for me you can have 1 and 4... provoked

I have a tendency to agree, "smutty buddy" may have overstepped.
As far as the defination, far too many see it as 1 and 4, YDD's I mostly saw as 2 and 3. I am not quite sure about J. Doe, but I tend to see it as 2 and 3. I am sure, with my bluntness and low tolerence for bullshit (except for my own, of course ), some may see mine as 1 and 4, intent may have been 2 or 3. But I will go a long way to explain.

Egos are like assholes, everyone has one, and in some cases the word is interchangable. But they are both needed componets of the human system. I did not see an excessive ego from J. Doe, rather a gentile prodding.
You're not going to make define "gentile prodding" are you?

 

[Rybka]

Huh?

Ang
Both you and Rybka, I have respect for as writers, but both of you have a great capacity for really saying nothing.
as said, I see more preachy threads than comments,
if otherwise, I apologise.

HUH? What did I do? How did I get dragged into this?

I don't comment in public except in review on Thursday. All my other thoughts are given via e-mail or PM. And I too have a few poets ask me for my private opinion on their work.

 

[anonamouse]

I say what I want to say in public and I say more in private. I actually have a great capacity for discretion, but you are not aware of that because you don't pm me and ask me to critique stuff you write. I don't have any personal axe to grind with you either, but imo you shouldn't be so quick to judge someone who chooses to achieve the same purpose in a way different from yours.

There are plenty of people here and elsewhere who appreciate my approach.

Peace,
Ange

As said, again, I react to what I see, and if otherwise ( and in this case, I don't see it, but will take your word for it) I apologise.

I still stand by the comment, this place would be alot better if people like you and Rybka left more comments over in New poems. But, I respect both of your decisions not to do so.

I do not think that makes me anymore judgemental than anyone else around here.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

HUH? What did I do? How did I get dragged into this?

I don't comment in public except in review on Thursday. All my other thoughts are given via e-mail or PM. And I too have a few poets ask me for my private opinion on their work.

Hang in there rybka, ....<grin>

I can't believe my ears, people actually want a negative personailty to preach to you about your poetry with a swelled up ego like a professor with a hemroid. I just don't understand why? J Does comments were slung from a soap box it is obvious they are swelled up in the head and spat comments with a negative tone and you like that, all I can say is see a shrink, cause that is to dark a soul for me to rub shoulders with. 'On Guard' <grin>

 

[Du Lac]

I have a tendency to agree, "smutty buddy" may have overstepped.
As far as the defination, far too many see it as 1 and 4, YDD's I mostly saw as 2 and 3. I am not quite sure about J. Doe, but I tend to see it as 2 and 3. I am sure, with my bluntness and low tolerence for bullshit (except for my own, of course ), some may see mine as 1 and 4, intent may have been 2 or 3. But I will go a long way to explain.

Egos are like assholes, everyone has one, and in some cases the word is interchangable. But they are both needed componets of the human system. I did not see an excessive ego from J. Doe, rather a gentile prodding.
You're not going to make define "gentile prodding" are you?

lol.. mouse I did not say it was excessive ego ... I just was stating to be a good comment left it should not have any ego. Her other comments left to other poets did not contain ego... this one did hence why I objected to you posting this one as the prize of her commenting. To me it was her lowest form of review and should not be held as the gold ring............. my thoughts and what works for me.
gentile prodding hmmmm oh the thoughts lol
du~

 

[My Erotic Tale]

lol.. mouse I did not say it was excessive ego ... I just was stating to be a good comment left it should not have any ego. Her other comments left to other poets did not contain ego... this one did hence why I objected to you posting this one as the prize of her commenting. To me it was her lowest form of review and should not be held as the gold ring............. my thoughts and what works for me.
gentile prodding hmmmm oh the thoughts lol
du~

WELL they certainly were not left on a positive note...
and if you didn't see ego written in those words you weren't reading it right.

 

[anonamouse]

you do not misunderstand, and you are never rude.

everyone is always free to offer opinion, and others to disagree. if that were not the case, why even be here, or anywhere?

i happen to think that negative reinforcement does work in critique, when used properly. i think it tends to shake a potentially good writer off any pedestal they may have placed themselves on, and make them more open to objectivity and suggestion. as published writers, we know that once our words are public, they belong to any eyes that read them. and i know i personally have benefitted from many tongue lashings about my writing, from YDD and countless others. much of it was brutal - and i had the choice to walk away injured, or assess the possibility that maybe they were right in whole or in part.

YDD did achieve a perfect balance, in my opinion. she was elderly, and very experienced.

it is not an easy tightrope to walk as a critic, and even she was blasted up and down literotica's front lines, if you recall.

Pat, you where lucky, all I had where a few comments from YDD, I was adriot to pick up where I was off, and thanked her. I was lucky in that Tara and foehn(sp)? blasted me. foehn embarrassed me in so badly in an email, because he was so right, I pulled the poem, and I told him I would always save that email.

Tara, I agreed with half the time on mine, but could not find very many faults in hers, she was that good. Well beyond me.

 

[anonamouse]

lol.. mouse I did not say it was excessive ego ... I just was stating to be a good comment left it should not have any ego. Her other comments left to other poets did not contain ego... this one did hence why I objected to you posting this one as the prize of her commenting. To me it was her lowest form of review and should not be held as the gold ring............. my thoughts and what works for me.
gentile prodding hmmmm oh the thoughts lol
du~

you're right, my mistake. I should have looked for better, or better still, I would like to compared it to the caustic one refered to.

I can still work up a defination of gentle prodding.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

Pat, you where lucky, all I had where a few comments from YDD, I was adriot to pick up where I was off, and thanked her. I was lucky in that Tara and foehn(sp)? blasted me. foehn embarrassed me in so badly in an email, because he was so right, I pulled the poem, and I told him I would always save that email.

Tara, I agreed with half the time on mine, but could not find very many faults in hers, she was that good. Well beyond me.

I am curious how you can praise a person who finds fault in every thing written and not call it negative? Or a problem-atic soul spilling their vent by showing the world they don't like others writes and nick picking at problems but not showing others how to fix them in a nice tone rather than "slutty body" comments,

I feel we forget this is an amature porn site and not an school of hard knocks <grin> cause I know all about hard knocks <grin>

 

[Rybka]

Hang in there rybka, ....<grin>

I can't believe my ears, people actually want a negative personailty to preach to you about your poetry with a swelled up ego like a professor with a hemroid. I just don't understand why? J Does comments were slung from a soap box it is obvious they are swelled up in the head and spat comments with a negative tone and you like that, all I can say is see a shrink, cause that is to dark a soul for me to rub shoulders with. 'On Guard' <grin>

DANG IT, Art! You are getting SO good that I don't know if I was insulted or not!

 

[My Erotic Tale]

DANG IT, Art! You are getting SO good that I don't know if I was insulted or not!

I have a great instructor <grin> the Du

I was not insulting you mi amigo, I did finally get that download to work I had to reboot and I will use it now for the first time <grin> thanks Rybka....

I still don't get this need for stuffy critics <grin> people need a negative to balance the positive perhaps, but this seems a bit darker than usual. I can't imagine anyone wanting a negative voice unless they have negative in them.

 

[Angeline]

As said, again, I react to what I see, and if otherwise ( and in this case, I don't see it, but will take your word for it) I apologise.

I still stand by the comment, this place would be alot better if people like you and Rybka left more comments over in New poems. But, I respect both of your decisions not to do so.

I do not think that makes me anymore judgemental than anyone else around here.

I don't mean to single you out necessarily. I know others here feel as you do. I simply don't have time to even read all the new poems anymore, let alone comment on them. And, as I said before, I don't care to invest my time in scouring a poem without being sure the poet wants that.

I'm thinking of starting a progess thread to critque the way I find helpful. People who want that sort of feedback--honest but gentle and respectful--can participate. Those who don't will be happier in the other threads. I'm not sure I'll have time to do it though because my teaching schedule is about to get even demanding (in terms of hours), and I don't want to make promises I can't keep.

 

[Du Lac]

I don't mean to single you out necessarily. I know others here feel as you do. I simply don't have time to even read all the new poems anymore, let alone comment on them. And, as I said before, I don't care to invest my time in scouring a poem without being sure the poet wants that.

I'm thinking of starting a progess thread to critque the way I find helpful. People who want that sort of feedback--honest but gentle and respectful--can participate. Those who don't will be happier in the other threads. I'm not sure I'll have time to do it though because my teaching schedule is about to get even demanding (in terms of hours), and I don't want to make promises I can't keep.

Reading my mind Angeline!!! I was thinking of doing the same thing! So lets do it! You start it and I will join you there.
du lac~

 

[Angeline]

Reading my mind Angeline!!! I was thinking of doing the same thing! So lets do it! You start it and I will join you there.
du lac~

lol. you got it, but i have to finish cleaning the refrigerator first.

 

[My Erotic Tale]

lol. you got it, but i have to finish cleaning the refrigerator first.

now there is two positive notes that make a nice tune....

 

[Jennifer C]

Reading my mind Angeline!!! I was thinking of doing the same thing! So lets do it! You start it and I will join you there.
du lac~

Now that is wonderful idea from two wonderful poets!

Hope to see that thread soon

 

[Angeline]

now there is two positive notes that make a nice tune....

lol. ty. now all i have to do is get my butt back in the kitchen and finish that damn fridge!