Scat (no, i'm not talking about jazz)

[Kajira Callista]

When you read osg's posts about her relationship, does she sound unhappy? Maybe she's not allowed to be unhappy.



Actually, as Catalina pointed out, you were the first person to turn it into a competition with this comment.



No one else tried to evaluate or compare but you. You can tell me that this comment was a joke but I'm afraid you're not going to be able to convince me that you aren't just a little threatened by the idea of an extreme side to D/s. I am thrilled to be considered one of the 'hardcore' folks though.

Ok from outside looking in... i have a few things to say.
1. OSG always has an undertone of being the one and only natural submissive in the world. Its nice that her Master has developed her self esteem to such a level, but i can see how and where it could start to bother others who are also submissive naturally.
2. Watching these boards i see all the time, that everything is a competition. People believe that they are the only ones doing it the right way. Sun fox IMHO is one of the few open minded people who accepts others point of views whether she agrees or not. But because she doesn't agree in no way means she is saying others are wrong for what they are doing, yet i have watched others take it that way and become offensive more then once.
3. Since my first day on these boards i have watched the constant comparison of slaves and subs. Here is the point that everyone misses; everyone is an individual and does things their own way but....they are all submissive. Doesn't matter if they eat shit or fuck horses for their Master, they are serving him/her. One last thing though Marquis....i can remember when extreme to you was something a little out there. This is not meant as a slam but people take this life as far as they are comfortable and can actually be happy. To me, most ppl here are just dipping their toes in the water...just learning and expanding themselves, I've been in the deep end and can tell you things that would prolly make your hair fall out, but never would i tell you that you were a lightweight in the world of BDSM. I always thought that the reason these communities exist was for acceptance and understanding, not for competition.

 

[Marquis]

Ok from outside looking in... i have a few things to say.
1. OSG always has an undertone of being the one and only natural submissive in the world. Its nice that her Master has developed her self esteem to such a level, but i can see how and where it could start to bother others who are also submissive naturally.

OK, I guess I have to concede this point. Well made.

I guess some part of me sees osg as someone who gets very little acceptance in the world, and I feel protective of her. I shouldn't allow those feelings to cloud my judgment of what's really going on though, and I defer to your wisdom.

2. Watching these boards i see all the time, that everything is a competition. People believe that they are the only ones doing it the right way. Sun fox IMHO is one of the few open minded people who accepts others point of views whether she agrees or not. But because she doesn't agree in no way means she is saying others are wrong for what they are doing, yet i have watched others take it that way and become offensive more then once.

This is becoming one of those feuds that seems to be outliving the original argument, so I can barely even remember how this all started. The fact of the matter is I like Sunfox quite a bit, I even gave her a shoutout in one of my poetry slams and I harass her for nudie pics on a near daily basis. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to call her out. Maybe I am being assuming and agressive here. I should just go on my meds and drool quietly in a corner.

3. Since my first day on these boards i have watched the constant comparison of slaves and subs. Here is the point that everyone misses; everyone is an individual and does things their own way but....they are all submissive. Doesn't matter if they eat shit or fuck horses for their Master, they are serving him/her. One last thing though Marquis....i can remember when extreme to you was something a little out there. This is not meant as a slam but people take this life as far as they are comfortable and can actually be happy. To me, most ppl here are just dipping their toes in the water...just learning and expanding themselves, I've been in the deep end and can tell you things that would prolly make your hair fall out, but never would i tell you that you were a lightweight in the world of BDSM. I always thought that the reason these communities exist was for acceptance and understanding, not for competition.

Not sure what you mean, but if you're saying that I've grown in my knowledge and acceptance of BDSM over time, I naturally have to agree with you. Then again, I believe I am one of the youngest on this board. So the only people I feel like I really have an obligation to being patient with are the two teenage sub bois, Xelebrity and his redheaded step-brother Tinfoil.

 

[sunfox]

When you read osg's posts about her relationship, does she sound unhappy? Maybe she's not allowed to be unhappy.

I must have missed the part where Quint said she was unhappy. Here I thought she just said osg had stated she was incapable of caring for herself/protecting herself. Is this that fun inference thing again?

Actually, as Catalina pointed out, you were the first person to turn it into a competition with this comment.

Do I really need to say that it was sarcasm? Apparently, everyone got it but you.

No one else tried to evaluate or compare but you. You can tell me that this comment was a joke but I'm afraid you're not going to be able to convince me that you aren't just a little threatened by the idea of an extreme side to D/s. I am thrilled to be considered one of the 'hardcore' folks though.

Again I have to say.. where did I compare? I made a statement that had no either/or component to it, therefore, there was no comparison. Just a comment that was my opinion.

Feeling threatened?

As for your study, the only thing mean about you is your av. That character, in both the original and remake movies is the very prototype of the female I despise. Is this a coincidence or have you been probing my brain for ways to upset me?

Really? You didn't like Joanna in either? I did. She's the only one who doesn't go blindly into the transformation, and the only one who fights the system that the husbands are seeking to force the wives into. She has to be essentially murdered in the original.. and only ended up being caught because she came for her children, and in working with her husband in the new one, manages to avoid the same fate as the other women.

That's a rather telling comment.

As is the 'probing my brain for ways to upset me' comment. Paranoid much?

 

[sunfox]

Ok from outside looking in... i have a few things to say.
1. OSG always has an undertone of being the one and only natural submissive in the world. Its nice that her Master has developed her self esteem to such a level, but i can see how and where it could start to bother others who are also submissive naturally.
2. Watching these boards i see all the time, that everything is a competition. People believe that they are the only ones doing it the right way. Sun fox IMHO is one of the few open minded people who accepts others point of views whether she agrees or not. But because she doesn't agree in no way means she is saying others are wrong for what they are doing, yet i have watched others take it that way and become offensive more then once.
3. Since my first day on these boards i have watched the constant comparison of slaves and subs. Here is the point that everyone misses; everyone is an individual and does things their own way but....they are all submissive. Doesn't matter if they eat shit or fuck horses for their Master, they are serving him/her. One last thing though Marquis....i can remember when extreme to you was something a little out there. This is not meant as a slam but people take this life as far as they are comfortable and can actually be happy. To me, most ppl here are just dipping their toes in the water...just learning and expanding themselves, I've been in the deep end and can tell you things that would prolly make your hair fall out, but never would i tell you that you were a lightweight in the world of BDSM. I always thought that the reason these communities exist was for acceptance and understanding, not for competition.

Thank you. It does seem to often be missed that I'm not denigrating someone's choices, just disagreeing with them. At times, it seems very much that discussion is not the point of this forum.. only lots of head nodding and agreement and mutual admiration. I am, unfortunately, not really a big head nodder.. I'm not here for that. I'm here to learn and discuss and see how other people live their lives, and that involves disagreement at times.

This situation in this thread is the kind of reason I take periodic breaks, to remind myself that everyone isn't so reactive and can actually discuss things and accept disagreement... but also because sometimes, it's best to wait a few months for a shift change and try again.

I always enjoy you, KC, even and perhaps particularly when we're in opposition. You take it as friendly debate, and I like that about you.

And I think you're sexy. *stalk*

 

[Marquis]

Really? You didn't like Joanna in either? I did. She's the only one who doesn't go blindly into the transformation, and the only one who fights the system that the husbands are seeking to force the wives into. She has to be essentially murdered in the original.. and only ended up being caught because she came for her children, and in working with her husband in the new one, manages to avoid the same fate as the other women.

That's a rather telling comment.

As is the 'probing my brain for ways to upset me' comment. Paranoid much?

Does the emasculated purse carrying husband do it for you too?

I'm starting to see why we have a hard time connecting. Are you another one of those princess subs that have been spreading your venomous lies amongst the good doormat lot?

Get out of my brain permed one!!!!!

 

[Aeroil]

this thread has TOTALLY gone to the abyss lol......

 

[catalina_francisco]

Disagreeing with someone’s personal life choices or asking to be informed about them to better understand them are very acceptable things in my book, it becomes something else when the disagreement becomes a witch-hunt.

I am a bit tired of what I consider to be the continuous attacks on those who are in a TPE relationship….every single time we get these rounds of continuous questions about what is or what is not TPE. We get put through continuous rounds of questions trying to find the limitations of TPE. I mean come on, what the fuck has slicing a pyl’s throat to do with BDSM, D/s or TPE? Is the conclusion supposed to be that because I do not want my sub dead or am not going to order her to jump off a building, we are not in a TPE relationship?

Although it may sound a bit presumptuous, I am not a god, nor does my partner see me as a god or a deity or something else but a human. I do not consider religion to be part of TPE, so the whole idea of TPE being a slave who gives herself to a divine being is quite amusing and also to an extent, insulting and dismissive of my partner’s submission. She does not submit to me because I am on a higher divine platform, I am not more intelligent or have super powers which she does not have, nor will she be condemned to an eternity of hell if she is not a nice little slave girl.

There is a misconception about what TPE is and what it is not, of course I am just going to give you my definition which might be very different to what someone else is going to give. But that is what it is all about, BDSM it is a unique individual experience and finding your partner has often to do with finding someone who has views about BDSM which are similar to your own.

So here it comes, all the wisdom I have built over the years, my own personal definition of TPE and the universe, and of course the meaning of life, and my answer is not going to be 42.

In TPE we try to build our lives to reflect as close as possible real life slavery…consent and non consent become irrelevant since in slavery they are not part of the mixture. My partner is my slave and mine to do with as I please. This however only defines part of the power I have over my partner. There are laws in place which protect my partner, there are morals and ethics which limit my powers over her, and there are religious beliefs which influence our relationship.

"Being your slave, what should I do but tend upon the hours and times of your desire?"
William Shakespeare (Sonnet LVII)

A definition of TPE from the book "Screw The Roses Give me the Thorns":
"TPE is the empowerment of the Dominant BY the submissive's surrender to His/Her control. The power exchange is consensual and should be well negotiated. The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant."

TPE is for many a dream; it is for some impossible, unattainable and not a dream but a nightmare. TPE relationships are constructed on an asymmetric power structure which can pervade all aspects (even money, property, decisions and job) of the relationship. In essence TPE is flexible in the amount of power exchanged between the involved parties. The submissive partner is subject to the dominant partner's wishes and directions in all matters, without any restrictions by the submissive whatsoever.

Also some persons seem to think a TPE slave does not have a brain, or they are supposed to be mindless robots who agree with everything the Dominant says. Well yes I suppose that TPE could be that for certain people. I happen to believe my partner’s brain is also my property, and I also enjoy a good discussion. It really all depends on what the Dominant wants or expects from his property.

You see TPE is all about compatibility, it is finding a partner who is compatible with you, finding a partner whose limits, ethics and morals are close to your own. It is finding a partner who removes the need for consent, safe words or limits. I will never ever ask Catalina to put a gun to her head or to perform things which she can morally or ethical not conform to. So there is no need for safe words or limits, yes she might have made a mistake and if that would be the case she would be in big trouble, but even then it would not mean that I would be able to forgo her morals and ethics.

Even if I would want to you cannot force a person to be a murderer if they are not. Even when you hypnotise another person, if your subject is not able to commit murder they will not be able to. Yes you may be able to make them jump in the air or make them believe they are a chicken but you will not be able to break their morals and ethics and the same can be said of TPE. Hypnosis is not dangerous; you cannot be made to do anything that is against your moral values. TPE is not dangerous; you cannot be made to do anything that is against your moral values.

Francisco.

 

[snowy ciara]

Awesome post Francisco...

 

[WriterDom]

Ok from outside looking in... i have a few things to say.

3. Since my first day on these boards i have watched the constant comparison of slaves and subs. Here is the point that everyone misses; everyone is an individual and does things their own way but....they are all submissive. .

It's all about getting what you want. slave doesn't mean enhanced sub or sub plus. No more than one can say submissive is a better way than sub. At least that's the way I see it.

But to get back on topic, bird scat is white because birds don't urinate.

 

[Netzach]

I don't get this wild sense of TPE being attacked, sorry. I think any time you are going to bring up an edge behavior you are going to be questioned or tested or prodded to some degree. I think if you assert that those who don't engage in said kind of edgeplay are "ordinary schmucks" as opposed to those who have acheieved some higher level of BDSM nirvana, you are likely to inflame people who see themselves as committed to their own paths.

If I was uncomfortable with being vilified or questioned, I would not admit to engaging in any type of edgeplay or the kind of relationship where I remind my slave that he is, while cherished, still dispensable disposable property-- just to keep his ego where it needs to be. Many people would be horrified by this, but those are the dictates and the needs in question and that is, fundamentally, my definition of slavery as opposed to romantic love.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

But to get back on topic, bird scat is white because birds don't urinate.

Ewww ... he did the cloaca thingy ...

 

[Miss Diva]

But to get back on topic, bird scat is white because birds don't urinate.

Really?

 

[arctic-stranger]

But to get back on topic, bird scat is white because birds don't urinate.

No shit?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

No shit?

No, all shit. Just runny shit. Diarrhea every day of your life. Now you know why they have wings, and love freshly washed cars.

 

[WriterDom]

Except when they eat those damn purple berries. Or whatever it is that turns their shit purple.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Or whatever it is that turns their shit purple.

Or streaked.

 

[Masterslilbidet]

Hey! remember me??

Dear sweet poopie eatin' friends, i know some of you do not NOW eat poop (or don't know that you eat poop), but soon you will come over to the dark swampy side.

Hope all are well. As for myself, I have been busy at work at the IRS processing tax returns and you would be surprised at the small brown flecks on the licked seals on envelopes. I don't know if they do this to annoy me or to make me randy. Nevertheless, I have to retire to the ladies room to pleasure myself, sowwy to abuse your tax dollars in this fashion. NOT!!!

Master has been out of town and I've been stuck caring for his mother whom I detest. I have been treating her to "chocolate" cupcakes. It makes it easier to endure her senile ravings regarding Pat Boone and Anita Bryant. I tell Mumsie that Pat and Anita do NOT owe you a birthday present and she curses me and purposely rubs her back into the bed which causes her skin to weep and destroy my best 100 thread count sheets so now I make her sleep on carpet remnants. I haven't struck her in over a month. I think it's because Master is on mood stabilizers and some is not absorbed through his liver due to his alcohol problem and comes out in his poopies.

Soooo, how are you guys doin'? I've missed all of you terribly.



huggles and g'day from bidet

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't get this wild sense of TPE being attacked, sorry. I think any time you are going to bring up an edge behavior you are going to be questioned or tested or prodded to some degree. I think if you assert that those who don't engage in said kind of edgeplay are "ordinary schmucks" as opposed to those who have acheieved some higher level of BDSM nirvana, you are likely to inflame people who see themselves as committed to their own paths.

So explain to me what scat has to do with murder because this thread was about shit play.
Explain to me what religion has to do with scat play and the nice positive remarks about Europeans combined with beautiful scat pictures. Not forgetting of course nice positive constructive remarks about kissing and brushing teeth.

This thread is full of nice positive feedback of people clearly wanting to express their freedom of speech to make derogatory remarks about personal life choices which people have made. If you make enough sarcastic remarks about other people’s lifestyles it is only to be expected that one of the attacked persons makes the one big mistake to call another a schmuck.

The moment you start comparing shit play with raping 10 year old boys, child abuse, pimping and non consent that becomes the moment you make an open declaration of war and can be expected that some will want to defend themselves against those accusations. And actually if you look at it I think that calling people schmucks can be considered a quite mild comeback compared to being called a rapist, child abuser and murderer to just name a couple of the insults being thrown at some of the posters.

I question a lot of what osg says on many occasions, but I respect her choices and I respect Tainted B’s choices, like I love Catalina’s choices. I am on this board and the only Dominant who is in a 24/7 TPE relationship (as far as I know) so call me weird when I think it is at least partly my responsibility when 24/7 TPE D/s slaves get attacked to give an explanation of what is being attacked. Against my better judgement I keep hoping that if I give enough information people will finally be able to look beyond the obvious and use their freedom of speech for something constructive.

Francisco.

 

[Marquis]

Dear sweet poopie eatin' friends, i know some of you do not NOW eat poop (or don't know that you eat poop), but soon you will come over to the dark swampy side.

Hope all are well. As for myself, I have been busy at work at the IRS processing tax returns and you would be surprised at the small brown flecks on the licked seals on envelopes. I don't know if they do this to annoy me or to make me randy. Nevertheless, I have to retire to the ladies room to pleasure myself, sowwy to abuse your tax dollars in this fashion. NOT!!!

Master has been out of town and I've been stuck caring for his mother whom I detest. I have been treating her to "chocolate" cupcakes. It makes it easier to endure her senile ravings regarding Pat Boone and Anita Bryant. I tell Mumsie that Pat and Anita do NOT owe you a birthday present and she curses me and purposely rubs her back into the bed which causes her skin to weep and destroy my best 100 thread count sheets so now I make her sleep on carpet remnants. I haven't struck her in over a month. I think it's because Master is on mood stabilizers and some is not absorbed through his liver due to his alcohol problem and comes out in his poopies.

Soooo, how are you guys doin'? I've missed all of you terribly.



huggles and g'day from bidet

Alts.

What a cheap way to get your digs in without any chance of feedback.

I might erase it if I hadn't started finding it funny.

 

[Exciteher]

Wow, what an excellent post...and I am impressed that this thread has evolved so far beyond the level of where it was the last time I posted to it... so many excellent and thought provoking contributions by everyone.

..... The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant."

How often this seems to be lost sight of, yet is the foundation of power exchange, total or not.

....... In essence TPE is flexible in the amount of power exchanged between the involved parties. The submissive partner is subject to the dominant partner's wishes and directions in all matters, without any restrictions by the submissive whatsoever.

...... but you will not be able to break their morals and ethics ....

Francisco.

I feel the map of "the edges of BDSM" can be difficult to grasp unless it is illuminated by the concepts you have so well delineated here. In thinking about TPE it is easy to get stuck on the false paradoxes that the "TOTAL" part of TPE can seem to imply. Perhaps the absolute quality of the word TOTAL tends push the mind into a static frame? And it then becomes just as it is easy religate actual realities of the dynamics of "EXCHANGE" to the fog of the background? Dominence /submission born of the exchange of Responsibility/power. The two ends... of the two sides.... of a wide leather strap balanced in Powerful tension.

As snowy ciara has said already, awesome post Francisco.

 

[Miss Diva]

:Master has been out of town and I've been stuck caring for his mother whom I detest. I have been treating her to "chocolate" cupcakes. It makes it easier to endure her senile ravings regarding Pat Boone and Anita Bryant. I tell Mumsie that Pat and Anita do NOT owe you a birthday present and she curses me and purposely rubs her back into the bed which causes her skin to weep and destroy my best 100 thread count sheets so now I make her sleep on carpet remnants. I haven't struck her in over a month. I think it's because Master is on mood stabilizers and some is not absorbed through his liver due to his alcohol problem and comes out in his poopies.

Let's see you strike a senile old lady, make her sleep on carpet remnant ...wow you are one classy lady.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I didn't see anyone attacked any more then i have seen it happen in the past in this thread. I did not see TPE attacked, or slaves either. What i saw was a thread that took a turn to see or find the core of what makes a slave eat shit. Understanding the underlying thought process is the only way many people will understand this.
I also think that maybe it isn't such a good idea for people to be saying they worship a dominant or would die for one if asked without explaining that its not gonna get asked and that they understand that their dominant is equal in mind and body to them and it is their choice to take that step down to be under them.
I for one know personally that a TPE relationship is not as rosy, pretty and romantic as it is in the typewritten word...and i really think that making it that way is a bad thing for the people who are all starry eyed and ready to jump in with both feet.
Here is one last thing. People have joked in this thread and have been disgusted by it....but ya know what...they read it even though it made them uncomfortable. They learned something...whatever it was for them by reading it. Andddddddd when people feel uncomfortable they tend to joke and be silly...just human nature maybe. This was a nice discussion for a change in my mind...im sorry people felt attacked by others opinions.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Alts.

What a cheap way to get your digs in without any chance of feedback.

I might erase it if I hadn't started finding it funny.

LOL, perhaps the alt is an improvement on the original in which case we are being saved somewhat and entertained as well.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I didn't see anyone attacked any more then i have seen it happen in the past in this thread. I did not see TPE attacked, or slaves either. What i saw was a thread that took a turn to see or find the core of what makes a slave eat shit. Understanding the underlying thought process is the only way many people will understand this.
I also think that maybe it isn't such a good idea for people to be saying they worship a dominant or would die for one if asked without explaining that its not gonna get asked and that they understand that their dominant is equal in mind and body to them and it is their choice to take that step down to be under them.
I for one know personally that a TPE relationship is not as rosy, pretty and romantic as it is in the typewritten word...and i really think that making it that way is a bad thing for the people who are all starry eyed and ready to jump in with both feet.
Here is one last thing. People have joked in this thread and have been disgusted by it....but ya know what...they read it even though it made them uncomfortable. They learned something...whatever it was for them by reading it. Andddddddd when people feel uncomfortable they tend to joke and be silly...just human nature maybe. This was a nice discussion for a change in my mind...im sorry people felt attacked by others opinions.

I didn't feel personally attacked, but I did get the clear message so often voiced here that anyone agreeing to TPE or being a slave is questionable and needs to be either proven to be presenting a falsehood by presenting a continual succession of over the top scenarios and hypotheticals for those living the lifestyle to answer to, or that they are not the sort of people good folks should associate with, and as expressed...might even be stupid enough to commit to TPE with any generic dominant who will take them.

As to TPE being wrongly painted as a romantic, rosy experience and that being a bad representation of it...that is subjective. I am sorry you feel this way after having lived TPE yourself. I for one in my answers said repeatedly (though perhaps I was expected to say it in exact wording as set out by others, not my own words ) I was under no illusion Francisco wanted me any other way but alive (even said he has gone to great lengths to ensure I remain such), and also expressed it was a choice I made of my own free will to submit to a TPE arrangement (not asked to) and as such had given consent to his choices. Perhaps what needs emphasising given the flow of the discussion once again is that TPE is based on limits, but not of the submissive, rather those set by the Dominant according to their choices..thus it is referred to as a no limits relationship simply because unlike other forms of submission the sub/slave does not outline a list of what they will and will not submit to and their hard and soft limits.

I often express (even in this thread from memory) it is far from easy, I always caution people against jumping in blindly, but damned if I am going to deny for us it is very romantic and rosy because for me this is my choice as a grandmother who has lived her life a variety of ways and found this way the only way she wants to live, just as for him it is his choice and only way to live also. For me this is the way I like my romance expressed and if he wasn't capable of delivering I would not have chosen to have a romance and life with him....it isn't misrepresenting, just not vanilla understanding of the romantic hearts and flowers only variety....just as some find bedroom submission romantic, this is romantic for us. I don't feel a need to pretend I am not happy and madly in love for the sake of possibly saving someone making a bad choice for them....perhaps in doing that I would be doing the opposite and may scare someone away from living their dream as well as falsely representing myself and our life. It reminds me too much of the 'good old days' of gays forced to living in the closet not only for their own safety, but also so they would not taint the young and infect or convert them to gaydom by making it seem an attractive and happy sexuality choice.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

So explain to me what scat has to do with murder because this thread was about shit play.
Explain to me what religion has to do with scat play and the nice positive remarks about Europeans combined with beautiful scat pictures. Not forgetting of course nice positive constructive remarks about kissing and brushing teeth.

This thread is full of nice positive feedback of people clearly wanting to express their freedom of speech to make derogatory remarks about personal life choices which people have made. If you make enough sarcastic remarks about other people’s lifestyles it is only to be expected that one of the attacked persons makes the one big mistake to call another a schmuck.

The moment you start comparing shit play with raping 10 year old boys, child abuse, pimping and non consent that becomes the moment you make an open declaration of war and can be expected that some will want to defend themselves against those accusations. And actually if you look at it I think that calling people schmucks can be considered a quite mild comeback compared to being called a rapist, child abuser and murderer to just name a couple of the insults being thrown at some of the posters.

I question a lot of what osg says on many occasions, but I respect her choices and I respect Tainted B’s choices, like I love Catalina’s choices. I am on this board and the only Dominant who is in a 24/7 TPE relationship (as far as I know) so call me weird when I think it is at least partly my responsibility when 24/7 TPE D/s slaves get attacked to give an explanation of what is being attacked. Against my better judgement I keep hoping that if I give enough information people will finally be able to look beyond the obvious and use their freedom of speech for something constructive.

Francisco.

You got me what it has to do with shit play, in fact you may note I tried to re-rail the convo a couple of times to poo.

and as for the rest, I guess I just skip posts that seem kinda stupid to me and go for the meat I want, so most of the immature digs at scat as fetish have been glossed over, my bad.