Seeking a woman's opinion (for a subway harassment scene)

[SomaSlave]

If you live in such a place, you should move to a civilized place where saying 'Hello' is not considered threatening.

Where I live, we often wave at the driver in an oncoming car whether we know them or not

Many years ago, my work took me to New York City. As someone who's lived a good deal of my adult life in the U.S. South, I'm used to nodding and saying "Hi" to people I pass on the street, as well as holding the door open for people. On my first day in NYC, I noticed everyone looking down as they walked and avoiding eye contact. No one gave any response to my smiles and nods. I told a coworker about this when I returned. She (a New Yorker herself) told me that people in large cities such as New York value their personal space, since they have so little available. When walking, that space is considered sacrosanct: attempting eye contact is viewed as an invasion of privacy, if not the opening gambit to something more nefarious.

Has that been other folks' experience?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That sound like it could be the basis for a story, where pleasantries by one person are misconstrued by the other person, resulting in unintended flirting, an impromptu lunch invitation and the requisite sparks flying as they discuss their cultural differences.

Poor New York City boy gets transferred to the Charlotte office and can't cope with people smiling and being friendly...calls his friend up north fearing or his life because a girl has said good morning to him on the elevator three times this week. He's convinced he's going to wake up in a bathtub full of ice missing some vital organs, but what can he do?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

When I moved from the small town I went to college in (and worked in for a few years after college) to an inner suburb of Boston, I had a major culture shock. I would say hello to people walking down the street. In the town I had lived, they would say hello back and it was just a nice pleasantry. In Boston, the typical reaction (if there was one) was to cross the street to get away from me.

After almost twenty years in major cities, we have intentionally lived in friendlier places for the last 25. I understand that people are overwhelmed by the humanity around them in major cities. But I want to be around people that want to be around people, even if I lose some cultural opportunities.

Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso, Fort Worth and Oklahoma City (amongst others) are all larger than Boston and people don't look askance at you for saying hello, or won't be pleasant in an elevator, so I don't think you can chalk it up to "big city" either.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Many years ago, my work took me to New York City. As someone who's lived a good deal of my adult life in the U.S. South, I'm used to nodding and saying "Hi" to people I pass on the street, as well as holding the door open for people. On my first day in NYC, I noticed everyone looking down as they walked and avoiding eye contact. No one gave any response to my smiles and nods. I told a coworker about this when I returned. She (a New Yorker herself) told me that people in large cities such as New York value their personal space, since they have so little available. When walking, that space is considered sacrosanct: attempting eye contact is viewed as an invasion of privacy, if not the opening gambit to something more nefarious.

Has that been other folks' experience?

It's more a regional phenomenon than a "big city" phenomenon. There are plenty of big cities where people are still friendly/courteous, they just aren't in the North East of the US.

 

[AwkwardMD]

It's more a regional phenomenon than a "big city" phenomenon. There are plenty of big cities where people are still friendly/courteous, they just aren't in the North East of the US.

Feels unfair to call it "regional phenomenon" when you can just look at numbers.

City Area Population math (?)
NYC 300 8804190 29347
Boston 89.6 675647 7540
Philadelphia 134.3 1603797 11941
Baltimore 80.9 585708 7239
Houston 640.8 2304580 3596
Dallas 339.7 1304379 3839
San Antonio 499 1434625 2875
El Paso 258.8 678815 2622
Fort Worth 352 918915 2610
Oklahoma City 607 681054 1122
Chicago 227.7 2746388 12061
LA 470.5 3898747 8286


Doesn't seem sensible to compare Houston and Dallas to Boston when they're working with 8x and 4x the amount of space.

EDIT: blasted table function looks so pretty before you post. Area is square miles, and population drawn from 2020 census, all per wikipedia. I'd post a laughing emoji on my own post if I could because that looks hideous.

 

[old_prof]

Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso, Fort Worth and Oklahoma City (amongst others) are all larger than Boston and people don't look askance at you for saying hello, or won't be pleasant in an elevator, so I don't think you can chalk it up to "big city" either.

I don't completely disagree with your point but metro Boston is significantly larger than El Paso, Ft Worth San Antonio or Ok City. Boston proper is a very small part of the city. The history of the geography is very different in eastern cities and Texas (and surrounding areas). I have seen someone on the a public sidewalk in Dallas look very askance at being said hello to by an apparent stranger. As I have seen in west coast cities. I have not seen it in Houston (because I have never been there), but I have also been told by people lived in both cities that Houston was much friendlier than Dallas. Of course they were non-caucasian.

Cultural things like this are complicated by many, many factors. There is not a simple Our city is good, your city is bad. Total size is a factor. Density is a factor (Boston is 50% denser than Dallas, 70% denser than Houston). I believe weather is a factor. And how many people grew up in the city vs new arrivals. And many many more factors I have no idea about.

Long time densely populated large cities in cold climates are outwardly less friendly. In the US. And in Europe.

EDIT: AwkwardMD posted a more complete table.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm so annoyed I'm gonna take another crack at this

NYC - 29,347 p/mi²
Boston - 7,450 p/mi²
Philly - 11,941 p/mi²
Baltimore - 7,239 p/mi²
Houston - 3,596 p/mi²
Dallas - 3,839 p/mi²
San Antonio - 2,875 p/mi²
El Paso - 2.622 p/mi²
Fort Worth - 2,610 p/mi²
Oklahoma City - 1,122 p/mi²

EDIT: Go Birds

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Feels unfair to call it "regional phenomenon" when you can just look at numbers.

City Area Population math (?)
NYC 300 8804190 29347
Boston 89.6 675647 7540
Philadelphia 134.3 1603797 11941
Baltimore 80.9 585708 7239
Houston 640.8 2304580 3596
Dallas 339.7 1304379 3839
San Antonio 499 1434625 2875
El Paso 258.8 678815 2622
Fort Worth 352 918915 2610
Oklahoma City 607 681054 1122
Chicago 227.7 2746388 12061
LA 470.5 3898747 8286


Doesn't seem sensible to compare Houston and Dallas to Boston when they're working with 8x and 4x the amount of space.

EDIT: blasted table function looks so pretty before you post. Area is square miles, and population drawn from 2020 census, all per wikipedia. I'd post a laughing emoji on my own post if I could because that looks hideous.

But those cities are all in the same region... that's kind of what "regional" means.

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm late to the discussion and haven't read every comment thoroughly, so I may have missed if this issue was addressed.

I know KQ, Bramble, and Gunhill have ridden 'the subway,' but it's unclear whether anyone else has.

I grew up in a place with no subways, but spent some of my young adult time in an urban setting with subways. I recall being somewhat taken aback by what I perceived as the rudeness of people in the "big cities," but I also quickly got used to it, especially because I knew many people from the region who were as warm and friendly as anybody else anywhere when you got to know them.

People just have different customs in different places, and when you are new to an area you have to get used to them and adapt. If you are in an area where people are not so chummy with each other in public then you cannot force your customs on them and complain when they don't react the way you want them to.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I grew up in a place with no subways, but spent some of my young adult time in an urban setting with subways. I recall being somewhat taken aback by what I perceived as the rudeness of people in the "big cities," but I also quickly got used to it, especially because I knew many people from the region who were as warm and friendly as anybody else anywhere when you got to know them.

People just have different customs in different places, and when you are new to an area you have to get used to them and adapt. If you are in an area where people are not so chummy with each other in public then you cannot force your customs on them and complain when they don't react the way you want them to.

Now if we could just get all those Yankees to understand that instead of moving down here and blathering on endlessly about how they did it up North.

 

[AwkwardMD]

But those cities are all in the same region... that's kind of what "regional" means.

Ah yes. The famous North East region of Boston-NYC-Philly-Baltimore-Chicago-LA.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Ah yes. The famous North East region of Boston-NYC-Philly-Baltimore-Chicago-LA.

We have this term we use in America, we call it the "North East", and sometimes, "New England". That refers to a region of the country that includes Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, you know... all the places where people pride themselves on thinking anyone who says "hi" on a subway is a monster.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Long time densely populated large cities in cold climates are outwardly less friendly. In the US. And in Europe.

Accurate for Australia too.

Out in the bush it's much more natural to say hi to strangers. If I'm stopped by the side of the road I can expect drivers to pause and check whether I need help, because that can be vital in an area where there might not be phone reception and there might not be another passing car for days. But I'd be socially burned out if I tried to make conversation with everybody on the tram or train in Melbourne.

And I still end up talking more to people here than I would in the bush, it's just that I'm talking with people I know rather than those I don't.

 

[AwkwardMD]

We have this term we use in America, we call it the "North East", and sometimes, "New England". That refers to a region of the country that includes Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, you know... all the places where people pride themselves on thinking anyone who says "hi" on a subway is a monster.

Instantly disqualified from continued participation for suggesting that any of those except Boston is in New England.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Instantly disqualified from continued participation for suggesting that any of those except Boston is in New England.

Welcome to how the rest of the country sees you!

 

[Erozetta]

I once handed out roses randomly to people in Boston and it was met with smiles, friendly nods, and conversation. I was deeply uncomfortable.

I grew up in the Midwest and southern US. I've found Boston really pleasant, and the subway and trains are easy and quiet modes of transportation. I've been completely left alone or chatted up on the same train at different stations as people enter and exit.

There's no single way.

However, if you're driving, you just gotta push your way into the fuckin' line of cars like you own the place or you're gonna sit there forever.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm so annoyed I'm gonna take another crack at this

NYC - 29,347 p/mi²
Boston - 7,450 p/mi²
Philly - 11,941 p/mi²
Baltimore - 7,239 p/mi²
Houston - 3,596 p/mi²
Dallas - 3,839 p/mi²
San Antonio - 2,875 p/mi²
El Paso - 2.622 p/mi²
Fort Worth - 2,610 p/mi²
Oklahoma City - 1,122 p/mi²

For comparison, it'd be about 1300 for Greater Melbourne; 13,000 for City of Melbourne; and 50,000 for the CBD (= US "downtown"). I expect the numbers for those US cities would likewise be sparser in the suburbs, denser in the middle.

 

[AwkwardMD]

For comparison, it'd be about 1300 for Greater Melbourne; 13,000 for City of Melbourne; and 50,000 for the CBD (= US "downtown"). I expect the numbers for those US cities would likewise be sparser in the suburbs, denser in the middle.

I bet they're nice as hell in Melbourne.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

For comparison, it'd be about 1300 for Greater Melbourne; 13,000 for City of Melbourne; and 50,000 for the CBD (= US "downtown"). I expect the numbers for those US cities would likewise be sparser in the suburbs, denser in the middle.

So, Melbourne is LESS dense than the Southern US large cities where people are friendly. That kind of throws a wrench in the "population density" theory.

 

[SimonDoom]

We have this term we use in America, we call it the "North East", and sometimes, "New England". That refers to a region of the country that includes Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, you know... all the places where people pride themselves on thinking anyone who says "hi" on a subway is a monster.

This reminds me, although from an entirely different perspective, of the famous New Yorker cover illustration, showing the "New York perspective of America":





You have to expect some grief if you lump Baltimore with Boston as part of the "North East." And you're going to get fights if you call it part of "New England."

It's the same where I come from. Here, there are people who refer to Chicago as "the East." Everything "that way" is "Back East."

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This reminds me, although from an entirely different perspective, of the famous New Yorker cover illustration, showing the "New York perspective of America":


View attachment 2569426


You have to expect some grief if you lump Baltimore with Boston as part of the "North East." And you're going to get fights if you call it part of "New England."

It's the same where I come from. Here, there are people who refer to Chicago as "the East." Everything "that way" is "Back East."

The people giving you grief will also refer to everything from Florida to Texas as "the south".
Miami is more culturally distinct from New Orleans than Boston is from NYC or Baltimore.

 

[Britva415]

Without knowing any other intent for the story, I thought it was humorous and engaging writing.

But not remotely plausible, which is what the question was.

 

[AwkwardMD]

This might help. It's color coded.

 

[Britva415]

I'm baffled by this notion that one interaction is considered harassment. Harassment is a persistent pattern of... well, unwanted attention in the particular case of this story, but this supposedly global universal consideration which was alleged doesn't even refer to what we usually mean when we say "unwanted attention."

An exception can be made for a single instance of absolutely inexcusable interaction, we can call that harassment, sure, but, a regular old greeting of normal severity doesn't rise to that level.

I think that that allegation says more about the conditioning of the one who alleged it than it says about all the people on all of the many many global subway systems they have ridden.

 

[Britva415]

If you live in such a place, you should move to a civilized place where saying 'Hello' is not considered threatening.

I don't think they want to, I think they like it this way.