senryu/haiku question
- Thread starter WickedEve
- Start date
karmadog
Now I'm a drink behind.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2001
- Posts
- 1,198
tanka
I read an online article about tanka (ostensibly written by a professor of literature, but I don't believe it because it was so poorly written) that seemed to assert that the defining feature of tanka is alternating lines with odd numbered syllables. 7-9-7-9 or 9-5-9-5. Clearly it cannot be true that that is the only requirement. On the other hand, the point of using forms, for me, is less to adhere to a tradition, than to work within certain confines in an attempt to produce more disciplined writing.
But then I don't consider myself a poet. I'm simply using poetry like the slut she is to improve my prose.
I read an online article about tanka (ostensibly written by a professor of literature, but I don't believe it because it was so poorly written) that seemed to assert that the defining feature of tanka is alternating lines with odd numbered syllables. 7-9-7-9 or 9-5-9-5. Clearly it cannot be true that that is the only requirement. On the other hand, the point of using forms, for me, is less to adhere to a tradition, than to work within certain confines in an attempt to produce more disciplined writing.
But then I don't consider myself a poet. I'm simply using poetry like the slut she is to improve my prose.
G
Guest
Guest
Poetry's a whore
free to see costly to fuck
and she rarely comes
karmadog
free to see costly to fuck
and she rarely comes
karmadog
G
Guest
Guest
Oops
that should read:
Poetry's a whore
free to see costly to make
and she rarely comes
karmadog again.
that should read:
Poetry's a whore
free to see costly to make
and she rarely comes
karmadog again.
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: haiku?
It's already very good but if one day U get inspired and still improve upon "sticky" it would be super. Possibly in place of "marches" (which already is quite good) U will manage to get something less predictable, something which carries more new info and keeps your readers more on their toes. Once again, I like your haiku very much.
Hey, hey, very nice
(Yes, U do have your talent, WickedEve, I've seen it in the past too, and insight. Your insight is obscured, and Literotica makes it worse. But it provides U with a social environment, so it is a tradeoff).
Hey, WickedEve, that's a good one! And it has a touch of humor to it too.WickedEve said:
It's already very good but if one day U get inspired and still improve upon "sticky" it would be super. Possibly in place of "marches" (which already is quite good) U will manage to get something less predictable, something which carries more new info and keeps your readers more on their toes. Once again, I like your haiku very much.
Hey, hey, very nice
(Yes, U do have your talent, WickedEve, I've seen it in the past too, and insight. Your insight is obscured, and Literotica makes it worse. But it provides U with a social environment, so it is a tradeoff).
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: Would this make it senryu?
What r U? A murderess?!WickedEve said:
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: tanka
). Jokes aside, Japanese tanka has 5-7-5-7-7 format. Tanka is a relaxed form, a lot goes. Great tanka--that's something else, read Keiko Imaoka. Once again, in English she was using fewer syllables while her English was still smooth and beautiful.
Regards,
As WE said: there is more to it, when she generously gave us an extra syllable (5-8-5 versus standard 5-7-5karmadog said:
). Jokes aside, Japanese tanka has 5-7-5-7-7 format. Tanka is a relaxed form, a lot goes. Great tanka--that's something else, read Keiko Imaoka. Once again, in English she was using fewer syllables while her English was still smooth and beautiful.Regards,
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: I'm confused now!
(And afterwards read whatever U please)
Regards,
Read Basho, Buson, Issa, Shiki, Keiko Imaoka.WickedEve said:
(And afterwards read whatever U please
)Regards,
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Hi Sherlock Holmes Rybka,Rybka said:
I was never good at chess, just a regular chess club level player. I enjoy chess history and trivia. All these names of the players from the past and present sound to me homeric, magic, colorful: Ruy Lopez, Phillidor, Anderssen, Staunton, Morphy, Steinitz, Zukertort, Winawer, Tarrash, Marshall, Janowski, Lasker, Pillsbury, Rubinshtein, Capablanca, Alechine, Tartakower, Nimzowitz, Reti, Bogoliubov, Flohr, Fine, Reshevsky (Rzeszewski), Keres, Botwinnik, Smyslov, Boleslavsky, Bronstein, Kotov, Tajmanov, Petrosian, Geller, Korchnoy, Gligorich, Spassky, Tal, Fischer, Larsen, Kasparov, Short, Anand, Kramsky, Polgar sisters, Kamsky, Shirov, Morozevich,...
And mathematics? I do it for my own pleasure.
It's very strange that so many artists have no ear for math. Statistically speaking, mathematicians know more about art (and r more alert to artistic issues) than artists about mathematics.
Best regards,
karmadog
Now I'm a drink behind.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2001
- Posts
- 1,198
You mention this great guy who should be read, yet you give us no link.
Keiko on Haiku and how they should be done in English.
I suspect this may be tanka by Keiko about a Super KMart (I am amused by this)
A haiku series called Surf
I'm too tired to find anymore, but perhaps that is a start.
Senna, you should provide these if you want to give us your hero. And don't lie, Keiko is your hero.
Keiko on Haiku and how they should be done in English.
I suspect this may be tanka by Keiko about a Super KMart (I am amused by this)
A haiku series called Surf
I'm too tired to find anymore, but perhaps that is a start.
Senna, you should provide these if you want to give us your hero. And don't lie, Keiko is your hero.
WickedEve
save an apple, eat eve
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2001
- Posts
- 11,470
Re: Re: haiku?
up hill
ants conga
I left out sticky. If the reader knows the ants went through fresh paint, then he/she would naturally assume that the ants are sticky. And then I thought of a conga line of ants lifting their sticky feet up high, then down as they marched along.
across fresh paintSenna Jawa said:Hey, WickedEve, that's a good one! And it has a touch of humor to it too.
It's already very good but if one day U get inspired and still improve upon "sticky" it would be super. Possibly in place of "marches" (which already is quite good) U will manage to get something less predictable, something which carries more new info and keeps your readers more on their toes. Once again, I like your haiku very much.
Hey, hey, very nice
(Yes, U do have your talent, WickedEve, I've seen it in the past too, and insight. Your insight is obscured, and Literotica makes it worse. But it provides U with a social environment, so it is a tradeoff).
up hill
ants conga
I left out sticky. If the reader knows the ants went through fresh paint, then he/she would naturally assume that the ants are sticky. And then I thought of a conga line of ants lifting their sticky feet up high, then down as they marched along.
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
karmadog said:
Super KMart is a moving, touching haiku cycle.
Keiko Imaoka is "she" not "he". Japanese first names ending with "o" are female (Keiko herself told me so in the second email between us).
Great poets r my heros. When we were on shiki haiku list years ago others thought that Keiko is just one of the strong haiku authors. One sleazy idiot, a small man with unproportional ego and no talent whatrsoever, was even giving Keiko hard time. I knew from the beginning that Keiko was heads and shoulders above the rest, that she is Master. With the time passing she was gaining her recognition despite the fact that she stopped being active in poetry. Now, that she is not alive she is recognized even more.
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
WE, Don't hurt your haiku
WE, I didn't mean the poor ants. I meant to protect your haiku from U (that 4th line would be a poetic disaster).
Senna Jawa said:
WE, I didn't mean the poor ants. I meant to protect your haiku from U
(that 4th line would be a poetic disaster).Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Forget Senna Jawa. Read Basho, Buson, Issa, Shiki, Keiko Imaoka. Enjoy,WickedEve said:
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: Would this make it senryu?
) the fact that the 4th line would spoil this otherwise enjoyable poem. "Mean humor" is rather a humor directed against people. Your 4-liner might be interpreted symbolically--ants may mean people. But when it is that symbolic than it's not really mean. To summarize, U pushed in the right direction but it's not quite senryu. Close though (and for many people it would be close enough; but keep it short ).
Let's disregard (for a momentWickedEve said:
) the fact that the 4th line would spoil this otherwise enjoyable poem. "Mean humor" is rather a humor directed against people. Your 4-liner might be interpreted symbolically--ants may mean people. But when it is that symbolic than it's not really mean. To summarize, U pushed in the right direction but it's not quite senryu. Close though (and for many people it would be close enough; but keep it short ).
G
Guest
Guest
Thanks karmadog!
There is another thread of discussion about this topic - much confusion. If the syllables are only a guideline, not a strict rule - then I'd rewrite an earlier attempt as this -
Petting my white cat
Long strokes from head to her tail
Behold, elevator butt
I like Ameriku - terrific description!
There is another thread of discussion about this topic - much confusion. If the syllables are only a guideline, not a strict rule - then I'd rewrite an earlier attempt as this -
Petting my white cat
Long strokes from head to her tail
Behold, elevator butt
I like Ameriku - terrific description!
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
WE:
monitor glows
moth on screen
surfs the web
WickedEve
It's good. It's modern. Classical haiku and great poetry in general tended to be and to sound "modern" relative to its own time (Boleslaw Lesmian was an exception. He lived in his own world). Thus to be like them we shouldn't write about their time but about our own.
Characteristically for haiku WE is zeroing on one place in space and one moment in time.
The poem, from the general poetry point of view, hence from haiku too, is interesting, it presents a nice image+association.
It also has a basic defect which can be cured, I am sure. (Rybka's version in my interpretation avoids this problem). Haiku should be objective (and actually, in regular poetry it is way better when you do the same, be objective). The moth is not really doing any web surfing.
U seemingly have a paradox. The whole point of the poem is that the moth is "surfuing" but U r not suppossed to say so. That's right! Exactly! U should induce the impression in the reader that the moth is surfing, just the way U got that impression yourself without anybody actually saying it. Let readers chew fresh vegetables just as U did, don't give them the product of your digesting instead, don't tell them that the mopth is surfing (that's the digested food already). In general: do not pronounce your points, leave it to your reader.
As I said, this case is easy to fix.
Another weakness is the wordiness again. Practicing haiku gives U a very good schooling in word usage, which U should apply to your whole poetry (and prose too). U have "monitor" and "on screen". This should set an immediate alarm off, should alert U to a problem.
Now Rybka has proposed a variation:
screen glows
monitor moth
web surfs
There r trade offs. To give Rybka's version justice I interpret words "monitor" and "web" as adjectives which describe the word which follows them. Thus Rybka got a more efficient and compact use of words. On the other hand his version feels a bit raw.
Word "surfs" can be interpreted in two ways. If as a verb than Rubka's is nonobjective the way the original was. But let's interpret "surfs" as a plural noun. Than it's interesting! Now we have a juxtaposition. The only problem is its linguistic framgmentation, choppiness. Also, I would cut on the unwanted (unobjective) interpretation by supplying periods to stress the possibility of "surfs" being a noun:
screen glows.
monitor moth.
web surfs.
Go on guys, do not stop, keep working on it
There r still possibilities, image wise too.
Regards,
monitor glows
moth on screen
surfs the web
WickedEve
It's good. It's modern. Classical haiku and great poetry in general tended to be and to sound "modern" relative to its own time (Boleslaw Lesmian was an exception. He lived in his own world). Thus to be like them we shouldn't write about their time but about our own.
Characteristically for haiku WE is zeroing on one place in space and one moment in time.
The poem, from the general poetry point of view, hence from haiku too, is interesting, it presents a nice image+association.
It also has a basic defect which can be cured, I am sure. (Rybka's version in my interpretation avoids this problem). Haiku should be objective (and actually, in regular poetry it is way better when you do the same, be objective). The moth is not really doing any web surfing.
U seemingly have a paradox. The whole point of the poem is that the moth is "surfuing" but U r not suppossed to say so. That's right! Exactly! U should induce the impression in the reader that the moth is surfing, just the way U got that impression yourself without anybody actually saying it. Let readers chew fresh vegetables just as U did, don't give them the product of your digesting instead, don't tell them that the mopth is surfing (that's the digested food already). In general: do not pronounce your points, leave it to your reader.
As I said, this case is easy to fix.
Another weakness is the wordiness again. Practicing haiku gives U a very good schooling in word usage, which U should apply to your whole poetry (and prose too). U have "monitor" and "on screen". This should set an immediate alarm off, should alert U to a problem.
Now Rybka has proposed a variation:
screen glows
monitor moth
web surfs
There r trade offs. To give Rybka's version justice I interpret words "monitor" and "web" as adjectives which describe the word which follows them. Thus Rybka got a more efficient and compact use of words. On the other hand his version feels a bit raw.
Word "surfs" can be interpreted in two ways. If as a verb than Rubka's is nonobjective the way the original was. But let's interpret "surfs" as a plural noun. Than it's interesting! Now we have a juxtaposition. The only problem is its linguistic framgmentation, choppiness. Also, I would cut on the unwanted (unobjective) interpretation by supplying periods to stress the possibility of "surfs" being a noun:
screen glows.
monitor moth.
web surfs.
Go on guys, do not stop, keep working on it
There r still possibilities, image wise too.
Regards,
G
Guest
Guest
Ahh yes, Rybka - that's it! Poetry requires a subtle charm that escapes me, I feel. Nice job!
Senna Jawa
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 13, 2002
- Posts
- 3,272
Re: SJ
. (This is a haiku, not senryu humor).
Perhaps "ants conga" is not quite haiku way. In haiku U rather use juxtaposition: here U'd have a band playing conga, there ants moving, something like this, without saying that ants dance--they don't. Otherwise your conga association is wonderful!
Your haiku is very nice, even nicer than earlier. It's great that U have avoided "sticky". Instead your ants r forced to conga kick, to overcome the paint. Super.
Very, very nice. And funny. Poor antsWickedEve said:
. (This is a haiku, not senryu humor).Perhaps "ants conga" is not quite haiku way. In haiku U rather use juxtaposition: here U'd have a band playing conga, there ants moving, something like this, without saying that ants dance--they don't. Otherwise your conga association is wonderful!
Your haiku is very nice, even nicer than earlier. It's great that U have avoided "sticky". Instead your ants r forced to conga kick, to overcome the paint. Super.
