Serious Debate About the Competitions

[NotWise]

So lets start here: Do we want them to be fun exercises in writing, or do we want them to be actual contests of literary merit?

I'd prefer them to be something done for kicks, experience and exposure.

Based on earlier comments I generalized a few things that I thought people wanted. The contests should:

Be fairly judged.
Have high levels of voter participation
Have high levels of writer participation
Be enjoyable event for the writing community

Others? Edit as you see fit.

 

[sr71plt]

The thing is, most authors, from what I've seen, wish for anon voting to be disabled. Some don't want to participate because of it even. By discouraging authors from participating in the contests (there are many other things that do this besides anon voting) there won't be anything for the readers (the bulk of the website's users) to participate in.

Your point does make sense though. Is there no balance to this?

Well, yes, but Literotica, like the publishing world, doesn't give priority to authors over readers (buyers in the publishing world). Authors don't seem to "get" that here.

I'm pretty sure that the stats they have to show to potential advertisers are based on users, not authors.

 

[Arngrim]

I'd prefer them to be something done for kicks, experience and exposure.

Based on earlier comments I generalized a few things that I thought people wanted. The contests should:

Be fairly judged.
Have high levels of voter participation
Have high levels of writer participation
Be enjoyable event for the writing community

Others? Edit as you see fit.

I would add; to be less intimidating for newcomers, but that may just fall under, "high levels of writer participation."

 

[TxRad]

So lets start here: Do we want them to be fun exercises in writing, or do we want them to be actual contests of literary merit?

Please, explain to me in small words how you're going to make this a contest on Literary merit.

It's a popularity contest, always has been, and always will be.

 

[NotWise]

It's a popularity contest, always has been, and always will be.

Think of the list as a wish list. Maybe it can't be done, but there's no possibility of it ever being done unless the goal is stated and more people think about it.

 

[Arngrim]

Please, explain to me in small words how you're going to make this a contest on Literary merit.

It's a popularity contest, always has been, and always will be.

Unless you're using formulas, right?

The point I was making is that a fun exercise and a legit contest are polarizing ideas. Obviously, these things started out as being on the "fun" side of the spectrum and started gravitating the other way. Had there been stricter guidelines from the start, perhaps there would have been a bit more legitimacy.

To make the contest based on literary merit would require drastic change -- change that I don't think that many are interested in.

 

[sr71plt]

change that I don't think that many are interested in.

Quite specifically, Laurel has shown no interest in it, so it's all pie in the sky.

 

[NotWise]

To make the contest based on literary merit would require drastic change -- change that I don't think that many are interested in.

I think Lit could host a juried contest, but that would be a different thing entirely. Given that the content of Lit stories tends to be polarizing, it's hard to imagine how they would assemble a jury.

 

[NotWise]

I would add; to be less intimidating for newcomers, but that may just fall under, "high levels of writer participation."

Be fairly judged.
Have high levels of voter participation
Have high levels of writer participation
Be unintimidating for newcomers
Be enjoyable event for the writing community

Someone else can edit the organization if they want.

 

[TxRad]

I think Lit could host a juried contest, but that would be a different thing entirely. Given that the content of Lit stories tends to be polarizing, it's hard to imagine how they would assemble a jury.

As SR said, it's never going to happen.

We've discussed all kinds of changes for the better. It took an act of cvongress to finally get the politics out of the AH. So many people left something had to be done or the place would have been a ghost town. And i think that was the only reason something was done.

Some of us have been here long enough to know we are wasting our time and breath or fingertips as the case may be.

 

[sr71plt]

As long as the attitude prevails here that you can't write high-quality works in anything less than a novella, there's really no reason to do a juried contest based on good writing, no. Sorry, but that's the way it is. It's not a site developing writers to being able to compete as writers in the mainstream. It's its own little world here.

 

[TxRad]

Would someone point me to the sign that says anything about short stories. I've seen signs that said story or stories but no short stories.

 

[NotWise]

As long as the attitude prevails here that you can't write high-quality works in anything less than a novella, there's really no reason to do a juried contest based on good writing, no. Sorry, but that's the way it is. It's not a site developing writers to being able to compete as writers in the mainstream. It's its own little world here.

When I was in school, short story writing was taught in schools. Doing it well requires skill, attention to detail and more effort per word. I like reading a well-done short story. Reading a poorly-done short story is a waste of time.

A lot of Lit's novella-length stories seem to be short stories -- some well-conceived, some not -- that have been expanded by the addition of graphic sex. Whittle down the sex and the novella turns into a short story.

 

[TxRad]

When I was in school, short story writing was taught in schools. Doing it well requires skill, attention to detail and more effort per word. I like reading a well-done short story. Reading a poorly-done short story is a waste of time.

A lot of Lit's novella-length stories seem to be short stories -- some well-conceived, some not -- that have been expanded by the addition of graphic sex. Whittle down the sex and the novella turns into a short story.

Pretty much.

 

[Arngrim]

When I was in school, short story writing was taught in schools. Doing it well requires skill, attention to detail and more effort per word. I like reading a well-done short story. Reading a poorly-done short story is a waste of time.

A lot of Lit's novella-length stories seem to be short stories -- some well-conceived, some not -- that have been expanded by the addition of graphic sex. Whittle down the sex and the novella turns into a short story.

Quite true. However, I wouldn't say all of the novella length stories on the website are "bloated" as it were. Some are very well written with every word (mostly) carefully thought out. There are even some where the sex is woven seamlessly into the story.

I don't think anyone could debate that the short story demands better skill from the writer. In fact, one of my favorites of the last contest was only 3 pages long. You could "see" the effort the author put into it.

 

[RejectReality]

That wouldn't matter anyway. One of the other sites where I post has such juried contests. The only place your statistics come into play is a minimum vote total to be eligible. Doesn't matter if it's 10 1s or 10 5s. There just need to be 10.

The judges are made up of a mix of the admin, story moderators, engaged readers, and sometimes contest sponsors. The mix changes from contest to contest, and participants are never on the panel. Everyone sends a list of their top stories and why they feel they're the top stories. The most "votes" from the panel gets the top 3 places and the other 7 honorable mentions.

People still regularly scream and yell that the "fix is in"

Incest and Non-Con aren't allowed there, eliminating two major creepy factors that would make a potential panelist here cringe. Trying to assemble a panel here with those two in the mix would undoubtedly produce a strong bias against them. Most likely, GM would suffer as well, where it's traditionally done quite well in contests — #5 in the list of most wins per category.

I think Lit could host a juried contest, but that would be a different thing entirely. Given that the content of Lit stories tends to be polarizing, it's hard to imagine how they would assemble a jury.

 

[NotWise]

Would someone point me to the sign that says anything about short stories. I've seen signs that said story or stories but no short stories.

I've never seen Lit limit anything to short stories and -- except for a passing suggestion a couple pages ago on this thread -- I don't think that limitation is proposed here. The idea is that the voters respond differently to long stories than they do to short stories. Even very well-written short stories can be ignored in the contests, so maybe it would be fair to divide the awards between short stories and long-than-short stories.

The idea that voters favor long stories did not originate from Pilot (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's part of the writer's experience here. I first heard the idea clearly expressed by LC, but I've only been here for about a year.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On to more constructive things...

I've seen many voice their opinion that anonymous voting should be disabled for contests. I've yet to see someone defend them. Does anyone have a reason why they shouldn't be disabled? The only problem I could see is that the minimum votes to be eligible would have to be tweaked and/or we would have to simply accept that lesser read categories aren't going to be eligible/practical.

I have defended them repeatedly, e.g. here.

In brief: if you ban anonymous votes, you greatly reduce the number of legitimate votes, which then magnifies the impact of sockpuppet accounts. It's easier to detect and sweep a pattern of 20 bogus votes out of 200, than it is to detect two bogus votes in 20. End result, you probably INCREASE susceptibility to cheating.

 

[Arngrim]

I have defended them repeatedly, e.g. here.

In brief: if you ban anonymous votes, you greatly reduce the number of legitimate votes, which then magnifies the impact of sockpuppet accounts. It's easier to detect and sweep a pattern of 20 bogus votes out of 200, than it is to detect two bogus votes in 20. End result, you probably INCREASE susceptibility to cheating.

My apologies. I do remember now. This was how the idea of binding identifiable information to accounts (i.e. credit cards) was brought up and how it would never fly.

 

[RejectReality]

They're not really ignored. There are just more people who actually finish them and vote. The more votes you get, the more likely you are to get that "liked it but didn't love it" 4 vote. The people who finish a long story are more likely to have been hooked, or they would have bailed long before the voting form.

The same pattern happens across both long stories and chaptered stories. The longer it goes, the lower the view and vote totals, but the higher the score — at least until it reaches critical mass where the vote totals get low enough for 4s to tank it.

The contest is based upon score, so they have an advantage. Churning out 12 Lit pages doesn't guarantee you a win, but it's an edge.

It's also something that's been steadily growing, as SR observed. The average length of contest stories is steadily increasing both because more long stories are getting entered, and probably because short story writers aren't bothering when long stories are dominating.

That's where I see the difference between this and other advantages, such as stories in Sci-Fi & Fantasy, which has a very friendly and engaged readership, and the trolls seem to be afraid to open for fear of being branded nerds or something. The number of Sci-Fi & Fantasy stories isn't exploding. It's relatively stable and has been for years. The length of contest stories, the number of long stories, and the number of long stories winning is.

It's becoming a perpetual motion machine that's threatening to swallow anything else, and I don't think that's good for anyone. Even the long story writers who can't write anything else are going to feel the pinch when every other story in the contest takes half a day to read.

I can get behind a full page # cap of at least 4, or a split between stories of less than or more than a page #, or a rotating schedule that ensures both lengths have their chance on a regular basis, but I do feel it's reaching a point of exponential growth and should have a speed bump in there.

And before anyone looks at the submission list for this pen name and screams "bias" because it's filled with 3 pagers:

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=525847&page=submissions

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=774924&page=submissions

I have stories up to 23k words and my very first story posted here was 22 chapters that average about 20k words each. I'm no stranger to long stories. One of the myriad reasons I started this pen name was to have a direct window into the performance of shorter stories in real time.

I've never seen Lit limit anything to short stories and -- except for a passing suggestion a couple pages ago on this thread -- I don't think that limitation is proposed here. The idea is that the voters respond differently to long stories than they do to short stories. Even very well-written short stories can be ignored in the contests, so maybe it would be fair to divide the awards between short stories and long-than-short stories.

The idea that voters favor long stories did not originate from Pilot (correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's part of the writer's experience here. I first heard the idea clearly expressed by LC, but I've only been here for about a year.

 

[TxRad]

So long stories dominate the contests. Incest dominates the whole of the favorite stories list. Chapter stories dominate most if not all of the top lists. Incest authors dominate the top of the favorites list.

Domination is nothing new.

 

[sr71plt]

Domination is nothing new.

And thus isn't the disparity of payout either--which is accentuated in the monthly contests, where some 30 straight stories are awarded and only 1 GM story, 1 lesbian story, 1 trans story, and no bi stories, because nearly all of the categories are for straight stories. Just because this exists, though, doesn't mean the money is doled out fairly. Ergo, it would be more fair just to dispense with the money handout altogether.

Yet another contest disparity issue.

 

[StrangeLife]

In other words: Incest rules!

Ok, that came out wrong....

 

[TxRad]

And thus isn't the disparity of payout either--which is accentuated in the monthly contests, where some 30 straight stories are awarded and only 1 GM story, 1 lesbian story, 1 trans story, and no bi stories, because nearly all of the categories are for straight stories. Just because this exists, though, doesn't mean the money is doled out fairly. Ergo, it would be more fair just to dispense with the money handout altogether.

Yet another contest disparity issue.

And the monthly contest are dominated by chapter stories.

Another one to add to the list.

 

[RejectReality]

Yes, and we've both agreed for years that chapter stories should have 1 place in the toplists and no contest wins, because they're not complete stories.

The favorite author and favorite story lists... It's just painfully obvious that there's an enormous readership for incest here.

You could always add a section to the hubs for most favorites in each category, I suppose. That would at least provide a place for every category to shine in that department.

I don't know that I would really say the favorite authors is all that heavily incest biased, though. There are two in the top 20 who don't have a single incest submission. Many others are a wide ranging mix, and always have been. Moving down the list is pretty much the same thing.

Compared to the favorite stories list, it's a melting pot.

So long stories dominate the contests. Incest dominates the whole of the favorite stories list. Chapter stories dominate most if not all of the top lists. Incest authors dominate the top of the favorites list.

Domination is nothing new.