Showing, Telling, and Orgasms

[Verdad]

well good people. i am hoping that you will allow one who has not done too much critique to get her hands into the keyboard a bit more.

As a relative newbie around here myself--welcome, mlady!

Verdad

 

[Penelope Street]

here is my interpretation of its pleasures. if i may ...

Of course you may! And I don't think anyone will be offended if you say 'cunt' while you're at it.

Is there a story surrounding these three rounds? The frantic pace and choppy form kinda reminded me of poetry. I can't really say it's close to arousing, but as an ode to a lover it makes me smile. There is a little classic telling too- for instance: "I see that she is pleased" I'd like to see her pleasure too, even a smile, you know? An unrelated nit: "my ass is slapped" is passive and I'm not sure why it wouldn't be better active. This though- "Getting under my waistband she inhales deeply"- Nice, that's when I smiled the most. I don't understand why this couple should even consider regret, embarrassment, or shame?

thanks for reading

Thanks for sharing!



Edited to add:

i am hoping that you will allow one who has not done too much critique to get her hands into the keyboard a bit more.

Allow? We're happy to have you join us!

 

[Penelope Street]

I freely admit I frequently fail to meet my own writing standards.

Don't we all feel that way?!

She ground her hips up into him with each slow thrust and Donovan felt his body trying to go faster. He kept it in check, however, and kept the pace, slowly doling out pleasure to her and to himself. He could feel every muscle in her body tensing when he drove into her, her flesh clung to his cock like wet silk and her lips were fastened to his neck. He pushed into her until he bottomed out and she whimpered, then he kept to the pace, rocking her body to rub her clitoris against his belly.

She took several gasping breaths as her body shook beneath him. He waited for a minute as she composed herself and then began to slowly pump into her. Her eyes fluttered open and she looked up at him.

"More?" she whispered happily.

I like that first line and the contrast between what the body and mind may want. The second line, though, I wanted more- like maybe expand this: " slowly doling out pleasure to her and to himself" Same for the second paragraph- I love the first line, but would like more from the second. I want to see her compose herself. And, thank you, thank you, thank you, for knowing she's not satisfied with just one- although, I'm not sure "More?" would really be phrased as a question at this point. The trailing "happily" is redundant, yes? Like your heroine, I guess I wanted more too, a little slower and longer. Does the context of the piece demand brevity?

 

[Penelope Street]

Goodness, no! I actually felt very self-conscious posting parable sex right after a piece of good, juicy real thing. Thanks for reading mine.

I don't know why you should feel self-conscious- it's a strong piece. And we were invited to share literary orgasms, not sex, making your contribution all the more fitting.

*L* I was afraid someone was going to say that!

But I know what you mean, of course. In the context of the novella, he's actually a sympathetic character, or so I believe, but judging from the excerpt alone, I would have said the same thing. All we see is a guy shooting up a girl for the first time, and that certainly doesn't smack of anything good however you cut it.

Why should you be afraid someone would say that- especially if you would have said the same thing?

The image/symbol alone does possess a certain d/s dynamics that, for me, makes it erotically charged beyond "good" or "bad". I hope I'm not alone in feeling that potential.

For me, it was emotionally charged too. I confess I completely missed the entire needle/parable thing, at least on a conscious level. How could you imagine it lacks potential? Erotic potential- well, that's always a personal thing. Maybe in context- for instance if the scene is set in the future and the drugs used aren't dangerous, then that could put it all in a different light. Or if it's clearly something she wants, well, then that's different too.

... I'd immediately read your scene twice, paying attention exactly to how many instances of subtle telling like that there are inside it. Not because I have anything against them—it's precisely the "why" that never ceases to interest me, which is why I said that both telling and showing are needed—but your scene demonstrated with how remarkably little telling the job can be done.

Depending on the piece though, not all the why's can be shown, and now that I think of it, if even they could be, it'd still be a matter of economics where to use which.

Exactly! I think we've all heard "show don't tell" so much that we're leary of even the littlest bit- I know I am, but sometimes telling is better and I'd like to develop a better feel for when that is the case. And you are so right about economics.

 

[Otto26]

Don't we all feel that way?!


I like that first line and the contrast between what the body and mind may want. The second line, though, I wanted more- like maybe expand this: " slowly doling out pleasure to her and to himself" Same for the second paragraph- I love the first line, but would like more from the second. I want to see her compose herself. And, thank you, thank you, thank you, for knowing she's not satisfied with just one- although, I'm not sure "More?" would really be phrased as a question at this point. The trailing "happily" is redundant, yes? Like your heroine, I guess I wanted more too, a little slower and longer. Does the context of the piece demand brevity?

Not really, and I guess that in context this isn't really a brief scene. It starts many paragraphs earlier and goes on for several more paragraphs. The female character's question makes sense in context: she's been hooking in a disreptuable 18th Century port town for three days (and not by choice). So having a partner who's taking any notice of her pleasure is a welcome surprise (particularly given that she was expecting to be treated like a street whore).

I told this story entirely from the viewpoint of the male character. I was planning on doing it as a he-said, she-said story pair in which I would write a second story which is the same story told from her point of view. Haven't gotten around to writing her story though. So the brevity you see may simply be the lack of her point of view?

 

[Verdad]

Thanks for the comments, Penny.

But did someone say point of view?

I found nothing lacking in your example, Otto, least of all the shift in point of view.

The excerpt got me thinking more about showing and telling, too. I've been entirely too verbose on the subject already and I'm not sure I quite nailed that immediately visual vs. cerebral way to conveying emotion, but I know I particularly liked this sentence:

He kept it in check, however, and kept the pace, slowly doling out pleasure to her and to himself.

Showing or telling, this? If we want to be pedantic, it's telling, since it lacks concrete sensory detail, but I wouldn't say it works solely in a 'cerebral' way because of that. I'm readily supplying a picture of how that slow doling of pleasure looks, perhaps better than if I were given one. To me, this can be as good as showing, even when completely robbed of context.

Verdad

 

[Penelope Street]

I do believe that showing comes first, though, and telling only gives accents and provides confirmation and added understanding of what the reader should be able to intuit by himself. But more than the ratio between the two, it's the discrepancy between the two that is truly problematic—occasions when the action intuitively means one thing, and the writer is trying to convince us it means some other.

A simple example of such discrepancies in sex scenes is when we're hearing how the character is having earth-shattering, soul-wrecking, spine-melting mega-orgasm, while the picture and the entire context provide little that would support it.

But now I've really blathered for too long…

I disagree. That was some quality blathering!

The female character's question makes sense in context: she's been hooking in a disreputable 18th Century port town for three days (and not by choice). So having a partner who's taking any notice of her pleasure is a welcome surprise (particularly given that she was expecting to be treated like a street whore).

In that case, I agree- it should be a question.

I told this story entirely from the viewpoint of the male character. I was planning on doing it as a he-said, she-said story pair in which I would write a second story which is the same story told from her point of view. Haven't gotten around to writing her story though. So the brevity you see may simply be the lack of her point of view?

I like it better told from the single point of view, but there's no reason it can't be expanded. This being an erotic site, I assume most erotic scenes are meant first to arouse, which is why I thought it would work better if it was longer. If the purpose is to develop character, then I think it works fine the way it is.

But did someone say point of view?

Yes, I believe someone did. Would you like a thread on this topic? Does the point of view in Otto's example waver? If so, I missed it.

... I know I particularly liked this sentence: He kept it in check, however, and kept the pace, slowly doling out pleasure to her and to himself. Showing or telling, this? If we want to be pedantic, it's telling, since it lacks concrete sensory detail, but I wouldn't say it works solely in a 'cerebral' way because of that.

So you liked the line I wanted to see expanded? Cool beans! Fine, I'm pedantic and it's telling, though it is well done telling and I particularly like the use of 'doling'. But it still does what telling usually does, right- skip all or part of a scene?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The one thing you really want to avoid are things like, "He'd never felt anything so wonderful in his life", or "She soared on wings of pure pleasure to orgasmic heaven." Both are so subjective that they're meaningless.

I've found there's three ways of approaching any sexual act, or anything in fiction: the first is the subjective experience - what they feel and think: that's telling. The second is the objective description - describing what they do: that's showing. The third method is the best for all story-writing - the objective description that allows you to understand what they're feeling and thinking through their actions.

Orgasm always implies a surrender to me—a loss of control over our bodies and sensations where we're no longer in charge of ourselves but surrender ourselves into our lover's hands. We may do this out of love or even rage, but that surrender of ego and will is the sexiest thing about an orgasm. You can describe it from the inside or you can show it from the outside, but that's the crux of it, at least for me, from my male poin of view. All that moaning and gasping and toe-curling and sheet-grabbing are just ways of showing that person's being overwhelmed by pleasure and ultimately surrendering to it. It's a loss of control, either willing or unwilling. That's what's so thrilling and dangerous about coming, and that's what we want to see.

There are all sorts of orgasms too—angry orgasms, triumphant orgasms, orgasms of surrender, orgasms of love. To me, no two orgasms are the same, and so there's no set way to write them. They can be almost entirely physical, as in a masturbation, or they can be almost entirely emotional, like that rush of joy you feel when you're so deeply in love that you lose yourself in your lover whether you're actually screwing or not. Usually they're some mixture of the two.

I think the my own favorite description of a male orgasm was all objective description of him pumping and sweating and snarling till he got to the point of release, and then it said something about his feeling all this anguish and pain and loneliness gathering into one unbearable knot of tension and then exploding into the sweet acceptance of his lover's body, where she took all that rage and fury and turned it into something beautiful for herself, something that ignited her own release, and at that moment they were one, with no barriers between them.

When it's good, that's something what it's like.

I thought Verdad'st heroin orgasm terribly sexy. It's terribly perverse too, but that just made it sexier for me. It might have something to do with the fact that I was reently in the hospital a lot and gettinga lot of needles, and I noticed that the nurses had different touches. For some it was just a stab, for others it was something more subtle and almost sensual. Needles are a lot scarier than penises—cold and clinical and dangerous—and so are drugs, though I don't have the same run-for-the-hills reaction most people have at the mention of the word "heroin". The whole act of shooting up is almost obscenely sexual and personal, and to let someone else do it to you—to put someone else in charge of your body and sensation—takes a tremendous amount of faith and trust. The presentation of the vulnerable vein, the insertion of the needle, the injection of dangerous chemical pleasure, all have very obvious sexual parallels

But the shooting up itself is sexy too—the chemical rush of pleasure. It's very voyeuristic and of course extremely empowering to the pwerson who's doing the shooting as he literally controls the other person's pleasure. That's what orgasm is about to me, and that's why I thought this was a very interesting example of orgasm.

 

[mlady]

Simple

The frantic pace and choppy form kinda reminded me of poetry.

Your point … is well taken

Rounds literally were that. It wasn’t so much that we made love; it was the we were wrestling towards orgasm. A frantic and a choppy pace? That was my intention. I want the reader to feel that bumps along the ride that she and I were tumbling upon.

She and I were a long shot couple. The piece I decided to “show” was from an excerpt of a story called SIMPLE. As we can all grab our stuff from the main site, I didn’t add a link in my signature. Thanks for giving me your feedback.

Onto more good writing, good people!

 

[Verdad]

Would you like a thread on this topic?

Hell no—I'd never get any job done then.

Does the point of view in Otto's example waver? If so, I missed it.?

No, no. It doesn't; that's why I said I loved it just as it is.

...it's telling, though it is well done telling and I particularly like the use of 'doling'. But it still does what telling usually does, right- skip all or part of a scene?

Hmm, you could say that, yes—that it skips a part of the scene. That's not necessarily bad, though, right? Sometimes that's what one wants for the reasons of pacing.

But what's good with good telling ("doling" is what made this one so good, yes) is that it allows the reader to form an image of his own, and in that sense nothing was skipped. It'd take a considerable amount of description of a particular grounding motion, plus facial expressions of protagonists, plus the sounds they made, plus what not to convey the same image that this piece of telling gave me in one blow. Perhaps my image isn't the same as Otto's or yours, but it works on each of us in a desired way by forcing us to draw on our own experiences. Good telling can sometimes provide a shortcut that way.

Doc nailed this with subjective and objective far better than I did with visual and cerebral. The objective, the description, if done well, lets one infer the meaning from the images. The subjective, the what-they-feel-and-think, has its place too, and can, also if done well, let the reader form an image on the basis of the meaning, working the other way round.

I'd perhaps only add something to this:

The one thing you really want to avoid are things like, "He'd never felt anything so wonderful in his life", or "She soared on wings of pure pleasure to orgasmic heaven." Both are so subjective that they're meaningless.

I think it's their being clichéd that renders them meaningless (and atrocious), in addition to their being subjective. The good telling, like that "slow doling of pleasure" is somewhat subjective too, but fresh enough to have meaning and evoke images.

Verdad

 

[Otto26]

The one thing you really want to avoid are things like, "He'd never felt anything so wonderful in his life", or "She soared on wings of pure pleasure to orgasmic heaven." Both are so subjective that they're meaningless.

I think it's their being clichéd that renders them meaningless (and atrocious), in addition to their being subjective. The good telling, like that "slow doling of pleasure" is somewhat subjective too, but fresh enough to have meaning and evoke images.

Well, I find the second phrase largely meaningless because:
1) It's trite.
2) It fails to provide sufficient detail. Orgasms are different and the actions that cause them are diffferent. This sentence forces the reader to create an explanation. If you want the reader to engage their imagination then you should, in my opinion, only ask them to fill in the gaps.

The first phrase could actually be a useful portion of a description. If this truly is the most wonderful thing the character has ever felt, then that might be a significant piece of characterization.

To create another example:
1) She crawled seductively across the floor to him.
2) She crawled slowly across the floor, hips undulating and breasts softly swaying, with her hungry gaze locked upon him.

The first is telling. The second is showing. The second is superior because of the level of detail and because it allows the reader to form their own opinion of the action. To me, #2 is seductive, wanton, breathtaking. Three moods for the price of one sentence rather than the one mood that #1 gives us.

Following this:
3) She crawled slowly and deliberately across the floor until she reached her goal.

This sentence is telling, but it avoids the pitfall of over-specificity. We have characterized her physical actions and created the possibility of several moods without pigeonholing her motivations with a single word. This sentence could be used to create a sense of ambiguity about the moment. Her actions are slow and deliberate. Is this because she's trying to be seductive or because she is forcing herself to do something distasteful?

Terry Pratchett once remarked that phrases become cliche because they are the hammer and saw in the toolbox of language. Sometimes you just have to say "It was the most incredible thing he'd ever felt."

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Terry Pratchett once remarked that phrases become cliche because they are the hammer and saw in the toolbox of language. Sometimes you just have to say "It was the most incredible thing he'd ever felt."

Well maybe that's the problem for me: trying to use a hammer and saw to construct what seems to me should be a blazing neon sign.

There's nothing wrong with saying that something was "the most amazing thing he'd ever felt in his life" if you're talking about his evaluation of the experience after it happened, but when I'm doing an orgasmic scene - and maybe this is just my style - I'm trying to get the reader right in there in real storytime and share the orgasmic experience - feel what he feels, think what he thinks, whether it be a raging fury of lust, or a sweet and peaceful release, or whatever, and that's done with concrete sensual detail. My objection to those subjective generalities is that they really tell us nothing about what he's actually experiencing and in fact even imply, in this case, that he's detached enough to be thinking, "Hmm, how does this compare to the other amazing things I've felt in my life?" At least, that's how it strikes me. It takes me right out of the moment.

The paucity of those subjective statements is probably more apparent when they're used to describe a character, as they often are. I read a lot of things like, "She was the most gorgeous woman he'd ever seen in his life." That may be so, but it tells me absolutely nothing of what she looks like. "She had a pair of tits to die for." Not only has "to die for" been used to death, but again, I have no idea what kind of breasts she has, whether they're large or small or erect or pendulous or what.

As far as MLady's example, I don't think there's anything wrong with writing in that choppy style. Style is style, and we each develop our own and that's why we read different authors. I've noticed that my sentences tend to get longer and more confused as my characters approach orgasm, because that's the way I experience it, as a kind of consuming, inevitable rush over the edge.

I usually write stories in which a character is profoundly affected and changed by a sexual experience, and so I naturally tend to exaggerrate the orgasm because it's the literal climax of the story, the life-changing event. I have to show what happens inside their heads at that moment. I'm happiest if I can do this by describing their external manifestations - the woman who digs her nails into the guy's chest and tries to push him away as she starts to come because she doesn't want him to see how she loves whathe's doing to her, or the man who suddenly grabs his lover's wrists and pounds into her in a possessive rage because she's unleashed some unsuspected beast in him - but I always have to see some evidence of their internal feelings.

An orgasm that just describes physical sensations doesn't move me much because I'm not interested in their genitals, I'm interested in the people.

 

[sunandshadow]

I usually write stories in which a character is profoundly affected and changed by a sexual experience, and so I naturally tend to exaggerrate the orgasm because it's the literal climax of the story, the life-changing event. I have to show what happens inside their heads at that moment. I'm happiest if I can do this by describing their external manifestations - the woman who digs her nails into the guy's chest and tries to push him away as she starts to come because she doesn't want him to see how she loves whathe's doing to her, or the man who suddenly grabs his lover's wrists and pounds into her in a possessive rage because she's unleashed some unsuspected beast in him - but I always have to see some evidence of their internal feelings.

I dunno whether I'm worse at interpreting body language than most people, but I always want to both see the external manifestations and get an explicit explanation of what the character is thinking to make them react that way. As a reader I often come across a scene that's all showing and no telling and find I've lost my immersion in the story because I don't understand exactly what's going on or why. As a writer since I want all my readers to be on the same page and have a clear understanding of the story I'm telling, so that's why I favor thoroughly describing and explaining things in my stories.

 

[Penelope Street]

It might have something to do with the fact that I was recently in the hospital a lot and getting a lot of needles

I do hope you're over whatever it was you were in the hospital for in the first place!

 

[Penelope Street]

A frantic and a choppy pace? That was my intention.

So I read what you intended to write? Great! Zoot is right, there's nothing wrong with a style. Which leaves me wondering what's with this...

Embarrassment, shame or regret? That’s kinda what I am feeling now. If I have to spend this many paragraphs explaining this? Back to the drawing board!

I don't understand why you should feel any of those. Others have spent more paragraphs explaining shorter pieces, so that's hardly a good reason. I think your selection might better have been explained simply by saying, "The story's not that long, read it in context. Here's the link." Within the story, the scene makes much more sense. For me, the framing made it more powerful- although in a very different way than when I read it out of context.

 

[Penelope Street]

There's nothing wrong with saying that something was "the most amazing thing he'd ever felt in his life" if you're talking about his evaluation of the experience after it happened, but when I'm doing an orgasmic scene - and maybe this is just my style - I'm trying to get the reader right in there in real storytime and share the orgasmic experience - feel what he feels, think what he thinks, whether it be a raging fury of lust, or a sweet and peaceful release, or whatever, and that's done with concrete sensual detail. My objection to those subjective generalities is that they really tell us nothing about what he's actually experiencing and in fact even imply, in this case, that he's detached enough to be thinking, "Hmm, how does this compare to the other amazing things I've felt in my life?" At least, that's how it strikes me. It takes me right out of the moment.

I agree, ranking the orgasm in a top ten list is just silly, but what about something like, "I'd never experienced anything like it before..." There's nothing concrete there, but I can imagine a character thinking something like that during the moment.

To create another example:
1) She crawled seductively across the floor to him.
2) She crawled slowly across the floor, hips undulating and breasts softly swaying, with her hungry gaze locked upon him.

The first is telling. The second is showing. The second is superior because of the level of detail and because it allows the reader to form their own opinion of the action. To me, #2 is seductive, wanton, breathtaking. Three moods for the price of one sentence rather than the one mood that #1 gives us.

I think the first sentence is still mostly showing- we do see her crawling across the floor. The only telly part is the adverb, right? And that is what the second sentence expands. Although then there are two more adverbs and an adjective that can be expanded too, go figure.

One thing my mentor pounded home: adverbs and adjectives are almost always telling, visit each one and be certain there isn't a better way to convey the image. Of course, if the character is wearing a blue skirt, well, what else is there to say? But what about a pencil skirt? Then it depends on the reader, doesn't it? In the same manner, I can picture 'Tall, dark, and handsome', cliche though it may be. And I know exactly what cheekbones to die for are!

Orgasm always implies a surrender to me—a loss of control over our bodies and sensations where we're no longer in charge of ourselves but surrender ourselves into our lover's hands. We may do this out of love or even rage, but that surrender of ego and will is the sexiest thing about an orgasm. You can describe it from the inside or you can show it from the outside, but that's the crux of it, at least for me, from my male point of view. All that moaning and gasping and toe-curling and sheet-grabbing are just ways of showing that person's being overwhelmed by pleasure and ultimately surrendering to it. It's a loss of control, either willing or unwilling. That's what's so thrilling and dangerous about coming, and that's what we want to see.

To me the real surrender comes so much earlier- when one partner opens their heart to the other. To me, that's the moment of danger. I don't think there's anything particularly dangerous about climaxing, except maybe for the sheets- but that's what mattress liners are for!

I thought Verdad's heroin orgasm terribly sexy. It's terribly perverse too, but that just made it sexier for me.

Did you once lament sex not being 'nasty' anymore?

I dunno whether I'm worse at interpreting body language than most people, but I always want to both see the external manifestations and get an explicit explanation of what the character is thinking to make them react that way. As a reader I often come across a scene that's all showing and no telling and find I've lost my immersion in the story because I don't understand exactly what's going on or why. As a writer since I want all my readers to be on the same page and have a clear understanding of the story I'm telling, so that's why I favor thoroughly describing and explaining things in my stories.

You may be in the minority- not that being different is a bad thing. If not for your stopping by, I might have left this discussion believing everyone preferred to see those external manifestations without any additional explanation. Thank you.

I usually write stories in which a character is profoundly affected and changed by a sexual experience, and so I naturally tend to exaggerate the orgasm because it's the literal climax of the story, the life-changing event.

Your preference, I believe, makes for stronger literature. I'm a little jealous. I still tend to go for tales where the characters are changed in ways that allow them to enjoy their sexual experience.

 

[Verdad]

Mlady, I admit your excerpt didn't quite catch me, but your way of thinking is curiously refreshing. Stick around.

Sun, I don't imagine you're bad at reading body language, because I believe I know just what you meant. The sudden lack of explanation can be especially problematic in sex scenes, though by "sudden" I first of all mean inconsistent. Some authors consistently offer more explanation and some less, and both is fine if it works. It's not fine when the characters stop thinking and feeling as soon as the bra is off, suddenly turning from people we (presumably) got to be interested in in a pair of generic porn actors. Is that along the lines of what you were thinking?

Penny, you have a good point about surrender happening when one partner opens their heart to another, though sometimes that can coincide with an orgasm. In writing especially we're often trying to make the climax coincide with the climax. If the emotional climax happens before the sex, there's some danger of the sex turning obsolete or anti-climactic. Not a rule that would apply to all cases, but just a thought.

Verdad

 

[sunandshadow]

Sun, I don't imagine you're bad at reading body language, because I believe I know just what you meant. The sudden lack of explanation can be especially problematic in sex scenes, though by "sudden" I first of all mean inconsistent. Some authors consistently offer more explanation and some less, and both is fine if it works. It's not fine when the characters stop thinking and feeling as soon as the bra is off, suddenly turning from people we (presumably) got to be interested in in a pair of generic porn actors. Is that along the lines of what you were thinking?

I wasn't thinking about sex scenes in particular, actually I wasn't even really thinking about stories in particular, a lot of the moments I've felt the most confused have been when I was watching anime or a movie, or reading a comic or manga, and a character made some movement or facial expression which was obviously supposed to mean something, but I had no idea what. But in stories specifically, when an author offers consistently less explanation that bothers me, I find it confusing and boring. I'm one of those people who enjoys reading the exposition parts of science fiction, which are all explaining, and I love books where the characters are psychoanalyzed either by the narrator or by each other.

 

[Penelope Street]

If the emotional climax happens before the sex, there's some danger of the sex turning obsolete or anti-climactic. Not a rule that would apply to all cases, but just a thought.

I agree. That's what I meant by this:

Your preference, I believe, makes for stronger literature.

I love books where the characters are psychoanalyzed either by the narrator or by each other.

Even if you enjoy a good dose of telling while reading, I found the telling in your writing to be on the subtle side.

 

[mlady]

i think ........

i don't understand why you should feel any of those. Others have spent more paragraphs explaining shorter pieces, so that's hardly a good reason. I think your selection might better have been explained simply by saying, "The story's not that long, read it in context. Here's the link." Within the story, the scene makes much more sense. For me, the framing made it more powerful- although in a very different way than when I read it out of context.

i am getting the hang of this ... thanks for the help. putting the link in the post certainly would have been a capital idea ....

thanks for the feedback to you and verdad.

 

[sunandshadow]

Even if you enjoy a good dose of telling while reading, I found the telling in your writing to be on the subtle side.

Thank you. But, as Verdad was pointing out, sex scenes may have a different texture than the rest of my work. I certainly have passages which are fairly blatant telling. For example:

Because magical constructs were animated with souls stolen from animals they thought and acted like animals, and the Kavem church had declared mating with one to be bestiality; an offense worthy of excommunication, especially if a half-construct child resulted. The church thus recommended that constructs were made plain-looking; which they didn't have to work too hard to enforce because most mages didn't have the skill to create ones that weren't awkward-looking. These were masterworks, and Fallon must have crafted them painstakingly. Although I was here at the church's request, I did not agree with their prohibition against beautiful constructs and halfbreed children. I was not in fact a religious dragon at all; it was a continual source of irritation in my life that I had to always act proper for fear of the church putting pressure on my family to discipline me for being a poor example to the commoners. If I did something scandalous enough the church might even force my family to disown me! I wasn't anywhere near as magically talented as Fallon, my skills lay in physical combat and leadership. If my family cast me out I would have to try to eke out a living as a mercenary captain or somesuch, and the violent and spartan nature of a military life did not appeal to me at all.

Although, because I write in first person and all the narration is 'told' by the viewpoint character, maybe that helps the exposition blend in better? Who knows. It's kind of impossible to analyze one's own writing since you can never look at it objectively.

 

[Penelope Street]

But the shooting up itself is sexy too—the chemical rush of pleasure. It's very voyeuristic and of course extremely empowering to the pwerson who's doing the shooting as he literally controls the other person's pleasure. That's what orgasm is about to me, and that's why I thought this was a very interesting example of orgasm.

I reread the scene. That it's something she wants makes him far less loathsome, but I'm not sure I didn't like the scene better when I really despised him. I still can't imagine I would ever find it arousing- though the image of her nipples swelling in a heartbeat and suddenly casting shadows in the flickering light- that is delicious.

I thought Verdad's heroin orgasm terribly sexy. It's terribly perverse too, but that just made it sexier for me.

Did you once lament sex not being 'nasty' anymore?

So is it the perversity that makes it exciting? I thought about this a bit during my day, remembering things sexual that were naughty when I was younger- the ones so naughty I didn't dare admit to anyone I wanted to try them. Now they seem so tame and my fantasies about them so innocent. While still enjoyable, the thrill isn't quite the same- and I'm not sure if it's because the novelty has worn off or because they aren't anywhere near so naughty anymore.

Penny, you have a good point about surrender happening when one partner opens their heart to another, though sometimes that can coincide with an orgasm.

I thought about this too- and I don't think it happens so often in real life, but I guess that's why we write fiction.

i am getting the hang of this...

I'm happy to hear it! I am just a little curious what emotion or feeling you intended to linger with the reader after they finished your story.

Because magical constructs were animated with souls stolen from animals...

Well, that is some fairly blatant telling. Is this excerpt from the beginning of a story? And this is the sort of piece you prefer as a reader?

 

[sunandshadow]

Well, that is some fairly blatant telling. Is this excerpt from the beginning of a story? And this is the sort of piece you prefer as a reader?

Yes it's from the beginning of a story - not right at the beginning, but page 2 or 3. I do like small chunks like this, yes, because I love ideas and having complex situations explained to me so that then I can understand the various pressures on the characters. I wouldn't like a whole story like this of course, a paragraph of this size is about the most exposition I would ask a reader to swallow all at once. The next several paragraphs are mainly dialogue and some visual description.

 

[Penelope Street]

Not knowing what the subsequent scene holds, it's hard to say what, if anything, might work better. I think I'd like to read a scene where the narrator's father scolds him for being a poor example- whatever that is. I smile when I picture an older dragon resting on his haunches snorting jets of fire over a pair of crossed forelegs the first time junior gets a little uppity during the conversation. If junior's poor example involves helping one of these illegal creations, then the two can discuss that and the church rules too. Junior can lament the unfairness of it all and Dad can say, "Of course life is unfair- that's why we have rules!" A stern warning could wrap it up- something about how if junior doesn't care to be part of the clan, he can probably rent his scales down at the mercenaries' guild. At least, that's what I'd prefer to read- but then again I chose to open my most recent story with a longer exposition than yours. Go figure.

P.S. How does one get a join date of Dec 1969?

 

[sunandshadow]

That's the join date you get when a database error forgets your actual join date, lol.

I wanted to start the story with the meeting between the main character and the love interest, so a scene with the main character's father would have bogged things down and been a misdirection. The story isn't about the main characters relationship with his family, it's about the main character getting deeper and deeper into the love interest's forbidden world and finding a home there. The main character's family will show up in chapter three to provide a shocking return to the real world, reminding the main character and readers that all this stuff is forbidden, not normal as it seemed at the love interest's plantation.

The love interest is a mage who creates constructs and is under a small amount of suspicion by the church and the duke for creating particularly beautiful ones and possibly doing naughty things with them. Fortunately, they don't know the half of it and the main character's good report will be enough to remove suspicion from the mage, at least temporarily. The main character is a nobleman who has been raised to present the public appearance of being a good little boy, and wants to escape that stifling life. He is totally smitten by the exotic ill-reputed mage and the chance to secretly explore forbidden things that he has fantasized about but that would strike his family as scandalous. So, since the constructs are central to the mage's erotic appeal, hopefully the reader will enjoy finding out various things about these constructs.