Similarities in doms and subs of both sexes

[LallyH]

Well I certainly hope that no one is a genuine sadist, if they are then they have a problem. Sure I can be sadistic, but I justified that under the notion that the subs were really feeling pleasure, not pain. Knowing this changes everything. I'm not sure about doing anything to the sub anymore.

Oh, I wouldn't say that you or your response are fucked up, no. I do think that it's fucked up to cause genuine pain to yourself or others. It's fucked up that they're not really "enjoying" it, but they're actually feeling immense pain, but also with a mix of pleasure.

But that's the issue - to me, feeling genuine pain is not fucked up at all. I can fully understand your reluctance to inflict it if it causes you to feel uncomfortable, but please don't think that there is something 'wrong' with masochistic desires.

I can only speak for myself but my reactions to real pain are both emotional and physical. The physical act of making myself vulnerable and not fighting or defending myself against it satisfies the emotional need to submit to another. Yes, initially the pain is difficult to process but coping with it gives me a feeling of achievement. After a while, the 'pain' becomes 'sensation' anyway when subspace is reached.

And there is a distinct difference between the pain received from a trusted partner and uncontrolled, unexpected pain. I wouldn't enjoy breaking my arm, for example.

Finally, regarding the point about desires being set in childhood, as a youngster I dreaded the thought of the physical pain which as an adult brings me pleasure, and I have absolutely no idea why I feel the way I do.

 

[Netzach]

There's actually an interesting research in neuroscience, that apparently, the masochists actually fused their pain centers in their brains with their pleasure centers, in their "critical periods", their childhoods. So they actually feel pleasure when they're feeling pain, but they don't stop feeling pain, they still feel pain immensely.

When you think about it, that's messed up. You thought that they were feeling pleasure, but actually, they were also feeling immense pain. How do you feel about that knowing that, as a dom?



Oh interesting... I wasn't aware of that noun definition.

I feel fine about knowing that. It's like a happy movie that also makes you cry. It's a grown-ass kind of beautiful, versus an episode-of-Barney happy.

Also, I've taken some canings and needles and experimentation on my own, and guess what, it's pretty neat. Not enough for me to cum or anything, but certainly better than a sharp whack on the ass sounds on paper. Nobody should knock it till they tried it.

Please direct me to this research, it's really rare that "masochists" are a study group at all! There's very little funding for studies on sexuality. Are these well adjusted BDSM masochist-for-fun type of people who do this for sex, or are these self-harming masochists who are unhappy with their masochism and thus it's really a problem for them? Why wouldn't those two groups actually be different?

Also - almost everyone who works out can say that they experience pleasure and pain at the same time. If you have a human brain you too have the chemistry requisite to get high off a spanking. Your socialization might freak you out too bad to do it well, but you CAN.

 

[Sweetdaisymae]

Also - almost everyone who works out can say that they experience pleasure and pain at the same time. If you have a human brain you too have the chemistry requisite to get high off a spanking. Your socialization might freak you out too bad to do it well, but you CAN.

I absolutely concurr with this, initially spanking can bring almost orgasmic feelings, but as it progresses harder, the euphoria of subspace is something else entirely.
I do not know the internal chemical reactions that cause it, I have had 4hr long tattooing sessions and never slipped into subspace, yet 5 mins hard flogging will send me there, so it isn't a simple pain response.

I tend to dislike pain and certainly do not identify as a masochist, yet some pain is enjoyable to me. And no, I had no childhood trauma, I am a functioning, working professional who isn't "fucked up" in the slightest!

 

[KoPilot]

Well, isn't that kind of fucked up? I generally wouldn't wish anyone to feel genuine pain.

How so? And define "genuine". What you're doing here is basically saying "I'd never do it, and can't understand why anyone would, so I'm calling it fucked up". You kind of need to be a masochist in order to make that judgement, don't you think?

 

[Stella_Omega]

See, this is where I wish BDSM hadn't become so popular and accessable. Even though I always say it should be.

It's not that JustADom has set his limits at "pleasure no pain,", I'm fine with that. It's just... So many people seem to have no actual understanding about this thing they claim to be doing.

 

[JustADom]

Well, just to be sure... I'm not saying that anyone is "fucked up"... But if someone is willingly causing himself pain, and not because he wants to or he "enjoys" it (he actually feels immense pain), but because he can't help it and not know how else to act, or because he can't tolerate the intolerable pain that he is already feeling and wishes to distract himself, then yeah, that's "fucked up" (maybe that's too strong of a word). Sadists are the same, except that they're the worse of the two, since they actually cause others pain, and not just themselves. However, masochists are more complex and have more complex inner structures.

According to some theories and research in neuroscience (The Brain That Changes Itself, Doidge), the reason for some masochists acting that way is because they have fused their pleasure and pain centers in their brain together, during when their brain were more plastic, typically in their childhoods. An example is that they may have been forced to undergo immense pain and duress and humiliation in which they were helpless to resist, such as having an incurable disease during their childhood, and the only way for their brain to survive was to redirect the pain into pleasure. When you are a helpless child, you will do ANYTHING to 1) not be "abandoned" and 2) survive.

An abused masochist mentioned in the book who could not help getting into abusive relationships one after another, because he could not find partners who would not abuse him attractive (in fact he thought that they were flawed), realized that he was merely repeating the pattern of his abusive childhood from his mother. After some successful therapy and training, he found greater freedom in himself, and he could feel genuine pleasure, found out more about his true wants and needs, once he learned the mechanism of how his masochism worked. His sexual and romantic preferences changed. He was now happy being in a "normal", non-abusive relationship.

Obviously, these are extreme examples, and they may not apply to all (I know... you might be saying, "This book doesn't understand BDSM", etc. But let's be honest. Not everything about BDSM is all awesome). Are masochism and sadism all just perversions, and they just need to be gotten rid of? My guess is... they're like defense mechanisms (or they ARE defense mechanisms). It's healthy and necessary for the psyche to have them to some extent, but if they go on overboard, then they start to cause problems.

 

[Netzach]

Well, just to be sure... I'm not saying that anyone is "fucked up"... But if someone is willingly causing himself pain, and not because he wants to or he "enjoys" it (he actually feels immense pain), but because he can't help it and not know how else to act, or because he can't tolerate the intolerable pain that he is already feeling and wishes to distract himself, then yeah, that's "fucked up" (maybe that's too strong of a word). Sadists are the same, except that they're the worse of the two, since they actually cause others pain, and not just themselves. However, masochists are more complex and have more complex inner structures.

According to some theories and research in neuroscience (The Brain That Changes Itself, Doidge), the reason for some masochists acting that way is because they have fused their pleasure and pain centers in their brain together, during when their brain were more plastic, typically in their childhoods. An example is that they may have been forced to undergo immense pain and duress and humiliation in which they were helpless to resist, such as having an incurable disease during their childhood, and the only way for their brain to survive was to redirect the pain into pleasure. When you are a helpless child, you will do ANYTHING to 1) not be "abandoned" and 2) survive.

An abused masochist mentioned in the book who could not help getting into abusive relationships one after another, because he could not find partners who would not abuse him attractive (in fact he thought that they were flawed), realized that he was merely repeating the pattern of his abusive childhood from his mother. After some successful therapy and training, he found greater freedom in himself, and he could feel genuine pleasure, found out more about his true wants and needs, once he learned the mechanism of how his masochism worked. His sexual and romantic preferences changed. He was now happy being in a "normal", non-abusive relationship.

Obviously, these are extreme examples, and they may not apply to all (I know... you might be saying, "This book doesn't understand BDSM", etc. But let's be honest. Not everything about BDSM is all awesome). Are masochism and sadism all just perversions, and they just need to be gotten rid of? My guess is... they're like defense mechanisms (or they ARE defense mechanisms). It's healthy and necessary for the psyche to have them to some extent, but if they go on overboard, then they start to cause problems.

There are books about how great it was that some "ex gay" "cured" himself too, but waving them at a message board FOR gay people would not exactly be relevant or welcome.

You're focusing on ONE case history of ONE person who was NOT happy with his own masochism. Great for him.

For most of us, we are harmed by psychologists trying to fix, change, and erase our sexualities when they are not a problem for us. Who gets to decide "when something is a problem for us?" A book? One case study?

There isn't any money in widely researching sexual variance - especially BDSM. We don't even have ONE statistic about "how many adults practice bondage and restraint in their sex lives." Not one reliable study on that most basic bread and butter expression of sexual variance - so any "study" about kink is limited in use.

Generally if it's a problem FOR YOU it's a problem. Not if it makes your shrink feel weird inside. Not if some random guy on a message board thinks it's gross. For the person in question - is it inhibiting or hurting their function? Do THEY see it as a problem? That's kind of where psychology has been for twenty years or so - thank God.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Vanillasplaining."

 

[JustADom]

Well, I do understand that there are going to be oppositions. But I do think that it's an interesting, if not important thing to talk about. There are some things that will completely change the way you think, and it will turn your life upside down, at least temporarily.

Again, to be sure, those were extreme examples. He actually visited for therapy himself because he was depressed. How can he not be, when he could not help getting into abusive relationships? Now, I know that BDSM is not about abuse, blah blah... But it was also because of his masochistic tendencies that attracted him to abusive relationships. It would do a great service to make everyone aware what masochism, and sadism, actually are. And apparently, according to neuroscience, we know the mechanism of sadomasochism.

What is happiness, pleasure, voluntary? I draw the line at genuine pain that they're feeling, and compulsive acts and behavior that they could not help doing to themselves, which goes for both sadists and masochists.

 

[Stella_Omega]

What would you like to know about sadism and masochism? Or are you pretty sure you know all you need to know?

 

[Bramblethorn]

There's actually an interesting research in neuroscience, that apparently, the masochists actually fused their pain centers in their brains with their pleasure centers, in their "critical periods", their childhoods. So they actually feel pleasure when they're feeling pain, but they don't stop feeling pain, they still feel pain immensely.

Where does non-pleasurable pain fit into that?

There are plenty of subs who feel pain when stubbing their toe but don't get off on it. There are others who will feel pleasure from having their nipples pinched after appropriate buildup, but won't feel any pleasure at all from a random pinch out of the blue.

There's certainly a link between pain and pleasure there, but I don't think it's as simple as "fused".

 

[Netzach]

Well, I do understand that there are going to be oppositions. But I do think that it's an interesting, if not important thing to talk about. There are some things that will completely change the way you think, and it will turn your life upside down, at least temporarily.

Again, to be sure, those were extreme examples. He actually visited for therapy himself because he was depressed. How can he not be, when he could not help getting into abusive relationships? Now, I know that BDSM is not about abuse, blah blah... But it was also because of his masochistic tendencies that attracted him to abusive relationships. It would do a great service to make everyone aware what masochism, and sadism, actually are. And apparently, according to neuroscience, we know the mechanism of sadomasochism.

What is happiness, pleasure, voluntary? I draw the line at genuine pain that they're feeling, and compulsive acts and behavior that they could not help doing to themselves, which goes for both sadists and masochists.

How exactly, can you presume to define "genuine pain" whatever the hell that is, for someone else?

I know what it is for me, and I know what it is for other people based on when they say it's happening to them.

And neuroscience is pretty crap at explaining ALL of any phenomenon including things like depression, anxiety, basic stuff, let alone why and how sexuality works. It shows generalities, but the motivations for any two masochists and their experiences are going to be completely different, even if the same bits light up in an MRI.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Well I certainly hope that no one is a genuine sadist, if they are then they have a problem.

Oh c'mon, seriously? They even took 'sadism' (and masochism) out of the DSM-IV, like 20 years ago - it's only considered a disorder when consent is absent.

Sure I can be sadistic, but I justified that under the notion that the subs were really feeling pleasure, not pain. Knowing this changes everything. I'm not sure about doing anything to the sub anymore.

i'm not even a masochist, i don't have that pain-mixed-with-pleasure neural thing you're talking about - pain just hurts me. But, i'll endure pain for Her, whether because She enjoys inflicting it (which is a rare thing with Her, but does happen), or to earn some corresponding pleasure (which is all the sweeter for having suffered for it), or to prove the depth of my love for and submission to Her.

That's not fucked up. When you think about it, even vanilla couples suffer for eachother's sake all the time. In D/s, it's just formalized, and you can safeword out.

But, if you don't get anything out of giving your sub pain other than thinking that they actually /just/ purely 'enjoyed' it (as opposed to having a more complex, but still fulfilling experience of receiving pain), then, sure, don't do it. :shrug: But, if you /do/ get something out of it, and have someone willing, don't let any 'study' stop you.

I do think that it's fucked up to cause genuine pain to yourself or others. It's fucked up that they're not really "enjoying" it, but they're actually feeling immense pain, but also with a mix of pleasure.

Pain-mixed-with-pleasure would be 'enjoying it,' no?

 

[KoPilot]

How exactly, can you presume to define "genuine pain" whatever the hell that is, for someone else?

Yeah, there's a reason that medical doctors can do nothing but trust a patient when they say that they're in pain. There's a reason there's no machine in the Dr's office that can tell them if your stomach ache is a "10".

"Vanillasplaining."

I'm stealing this

@JustADom: How about... we do what we do, with people who want to do it with us, and you're going to just have to trust us when we say it's fun and good for us?

 

[JustADom]

Well I don't know about you... but knowing that someone is in pain... is not sexy to me.

Do you think that I'm vanilla? No... I was into BDSM (or so I thought) a day ago. But I can't ever knowingly harm someone and not feel like that's fucked up. See... I'm not a complete sociopath. This may seem like a strange thing to say for a dom, but I feel pain when others are feeling pain. Well, that's just the normal empathy response. If you don't have that and you're a sadist, then you're a bona fide sociopath. That's scary and dangerous.

I'm starting to feel the same feelings that I've felt when I first discovered BDSM a few years ago. And that is of mix of infuriation, rage, anger, sadness, disgust, pity, etc. And those feelings are coming back. I'm kind of glad that I'm feeling this way again.

i'm not even a masochist, i don't have that pain-mixed-with-pleasure neural thing you're talking about - pain just hurts me. But, i'll endure pain for Her, whether because She enjoys inflicting it (which is a rare thing with Her, but does happen), or to earn some corresponding pleasure (which is all the sweeter for having suffered for it), or to prove the depth of my love for and submission to Her.

That's not fucked up. When you think about it, even vanilla couples suffer for eachother's sake all the time. In D/s, it's just formalized, and you can safeword out.

That's the problem.

1) You're not feeling pleasure, you're feeling pain, 100%. What is anyone supposed to do, knowing that you're in pain?

2) You've fetishized and sexualized the experience of pain and suffering and humiliation (we all have fetishes). Like doms, subs also come up with justifications and idealize their experiences, like "I'm suffering for my partner" "I'm being a slave to my duty" "I'm doing everything for him/her" "I'm proud of my suffering" "I am unique, and a better person for being a masochist" "I am courageous and triumphant for suffering". But for the masochist... pain and suffering is often pain and suffering in of itself.

 

[LallyH]

Well I don't know about you... but knowing that someone is in pain... is not sexy to me.

Do you think that I'm vanilla? No... I was into BDSM (or so I thought) a day ago. But I can't ever knowingly harm someone and not feel like that's fucked up. See... I'm not a complete sociopath. This may seem like a strange thing to say for a dom, but I feel pain when others are feeling pain. Well, that's just the normal empathy response. If you don't have that and you're a sadist, then you're a bona fide sociopath. That's scary and dangerous.

I'm starting to feel the same feelings that I've felt when I first discovered BDSM a few years ago. And that is of mix of infuriation, rage, anger, sadness, disgust, pity, etc. And those feelings are coming back. I'm kind of glad that I'm feeling this way again.

That's the problem.

1) You're not feeling pleasure, you're feeling pain, 100%. What is anyone supposed to do, knowing that you're in pain?

2) You've fetishized and sexualized the experience of pain and suffering and humiliation (we all have fetishes). Like doms, subs also come up with justifications and idealize their experiences, like "I'm suffering for my partner" "I'm being a slave to my duty" "I'm doing everything for him/her" "I'm proud of my suffering" "I am unique, and a better person for being a masochist" "I am courageous and triumphant for suffering". But for the masochist... pain and suffering is often pain and suffering in of itself.

If it's not sexy to you, don't do it. Simple.

As long as you refuse to accept that it is possible to derive sexual pleasure from pain sensation, despite the responses from others on here, then you will never understand or comprehend what is wrong with your assumptions.

The doms/tops that I have spoken to are extremely empathetic. It is, in fact, an important quality for them to have - they need to be acutely aware and responsive to the reactions of their subs in order to ensure that the play is giving PLEASURE to both. They do not simply beat an unwilling and unhappy sub and get off on the fact. Far from it.

And personally I haven't had any of the thoughts you list in item 2. For a reason that I am unaware of, and to be honest not particularly interested in, pain play gives me emotional and physical satisfaction that vanilla sex doesn't. It does not make me a better person, I am certainly not unique, I am not 'suffering for my partner'. I'm just having a good time.

 

[seela]

JustADom,

I have so much to say that I don't even know where to begin, and thus end up saying very little. You come off young and inexperienced, which explains the black-and-white-ness of your opinions. You really seem to struggle with the fact that people are different and reading one story about one person who wasn't happy about their masochism doesn't mean it's all applicable to all other people.

But just to recap:
It's possible to be dominant without ever wanting to cause anyone any pain and that's completely fine. It's possible to want to cause people pain with their consent without ever being dominant and that's completely fine.

What isn't fine is causing people pain without their consent.

Consent is exactly what defines BDSM and what makes it distinct from abuse. Sadism within the BDSM context always, always includes consent. If there is no consent, then it isn't BDSM. Words carry different connotations in different surroundings, so while in the "real world" sadist is a bad bad thing, in the BDSM world sadist can be a good good thing if matched with the right person, aka someone wanting to take the pain.

Yes, it's true that BDSM can be addictive. It can be used to deal with things that probably should be dealt with in other ways. But to assume this is the reason why most people are into BDSM or into sadomasochism is, in my experience, a mistake.

Can't you look at masochism and pain play as a means to an end? Experiencing pain releases all kinds of good hormones that make you feel real good in the end. Sometimes you have to take the hard route to get where you want to go.

(Much like me and cabbage: I absolutely despise the smell of cabbage cooking, but it tastes so darn good that I suffer through the smell.)

Edit: Oh, and if BDSM makes you feel angry and sad, you really shouldn't do it. It doesn't mean other people shouldn't do it, though.

 

[JustADom]

It is possible to derive sexual pleasure from pain, but that's really the fetishization of pain. That's the whole point of seeking pain... to derive sexual pleasure out of it (in fact, they may not be able to be turned on or achieve an orgasm without it). But you do still feel pain... right?

So my point is... how do you justify the fact, that you (doms) are causing their partners pain? "I will cause you pain, because you must feel pain in order to achieve sexual gratification"? Actually, how do they even gain pleasure out of it, knowing that they are in pain? It's the "they really enjoy it" argument.

I have been taking the phrase, "enjoying pain" for granted. How can one actually enjoy pain? When you are in pain, then by definition... you are not in a positive state. You are in pain... clear and simple.

Now, to be sure, there are "productive" pain, such as exercising or working hard, that could be both healthy and rewarding. But then there is pain for pain's sake, or merely for achieving sexual gratification, such as flogging, slapping, contorting yourself in painful positions, etc.

I am still getting confused. I don't claim to understand it fully.

 

[seela]

Why exacty is sexual gratification a bad reason to experience/cause pain?

 

[JustADom]

Because like I said, it's a fetishization of pain. A person must often, feel pain or be humiliated in order to achieve sexual gratification or an orgasm. They don't really "enjoy" it, but it's just something that they must do in order to be turned-on.

Can't you look at masochism and pain play as a means to an end? Experiencing pain releases all kinds of good hormones that make you feel real good in the end. Sometimes you have to take the hard route to get where you want to go.

So why is it about SEX, then? If that was the case, then it would be like meditation or yoga, some sort of a pleasurable recreational activity, which is not. So again, BDSM is the fetishization of pain and humiliation or violence and sadism.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You really shouldn't claim to understand it at all. Especially since you can't seem to accept any of the words that people have expended here for your education.

The second rule of BDSM; "Do unto others as they would be done." (first rule is "Informed Consent." )

Let's try a little thought experiment;

Personally, I think that many vanilla people have made a fetish out of gentle caresses, I don't get it. I think a lot of people have been conditioned to get a sexual pleasure out of gentle touch -- in fact might not be able to achieve an orgasm without it. But it's still boring, right? Hardly there.

So my question is; how do you justify boring your partners, even though you know that's what they want? "I will offer you the most meagre of stimulation, knowing that only the denial of full sensory experience will cause you to acieve sexual gratification?" How do they get pleasure out of being bored to death? is that what they really want?

Look, you are obviously experiencing some kind of cognitive dissonance right now; Oh my god-- she's been feeling pain! She couldn't possibly have enjoyed that, because you couldn't have enjoyed it? But she's soaked your bed with her juices. Seems pretty evidential to me. And if you go into some kind of ethical tailspin on her behalf about what makes HER happy, I do hope she has the wherewithal to take a hike, you patronising deal breaking son of a bitch.

 

[seela]

It's about sex, because it makes people all kinds of hot and bothered. Different methods bring about different results, maybe. I still don't get why sex would be a bad reason to take pain.

Is winning a boxing match or a hockey game a better reason to take pain? Can't the same questions you ask about flogging the sub types, be asked in reference to boxing, for example? How can they hit each other and cause pain? Even with gloves and helmets it hurts a great deal, bones get broken and brains get bruised. Are boxers sociopaths, lacking the normal empathy responses?

If pain isn't your and yours thing, don't play with it. Doesn't make other people's feelings and preferences any more/less valid, though. There are plenty of other BDSM things you can still play with. Unless all BDSM really makes you feel bad, like you said in a previous post it does. Then you really shouldn't do any of it.

If you want to go down that fetishization rabbit hole, then anything sexual is fetishisation of something, just like Stella pointed out. Vanilla sex is just fetishization of different kind of stimuli than BDSM. Nothing more, nothing less.

I dunno. This discussion feels too much like "we've been here before, I recognize that tree"that I don't think I'm going to go any further.

 

[JustADom]

Stella, that's not what I mean. If a person must go through pain in order to achieve sexual gratification, and not because he really wants to, then I'd find that cruel and tragic, especially knowing that he doesn't possibly have to go through that pain. But he does, anyway, because he has fetishized pain and associated pain with sex in his early years or later years or something like that. The more humane approach would be to not indulge him in his sexual games, but to direct him towards better, easier, safer, more satisfying ways of achieving sexual gratification.

 

[Ropebunny]

Stella, that's not what I mean. If a person must go through pain in order to achieve sexual gratification, and not because he really wants to, then I'd find that cruel and tragic, especially knowing that he doesn't possibly have to go through that pain. But he does, anyway, because he has fetishized pain and associated pain with sex in his early years or later years or something like that. The more humane approach would be to not indulge him in his sexual games, but to direct him towards better, easier, safer, more satisfying ways of achieving sexual gratification.

So, are you talking about a hypothetical person, or have you met a true, flesh 'n blood person who has confided in you that they feel this way?

I agree, if an individual cannot achieving sexual gratification without pain and has negative feelings about it they should seek help. An ethical sadist playing with such a person should encourage said person to seek help.


All other pain-loving sadists and masochists: carry on as usual - nothing to see here .

 

[dexwebster]

Because like I said, it's a fetishization of pain. A person must often, feel pain or be humiliated in order to achieve sexual gratification or an orgasm. They don't really "enjoy" it, but it's just something that they must do in order to be turned-on.
. . .
So why is it about SEX, then? If that was the case, then it would be like meditation or yoga, some sort of a pleasurable recreational activity, which is not. So again, BDSM is the fetishization of pain and humiliation or violence and sadism.

Wow, are you packing a lot of assumptions in there.

For some people it is just a pleasurable recreational activity, if an intimate one. Asexual people do BDSM too.

BDSM is bigger then SM. Not all dominants are sadists, or bottoms are masochists, etc.

Not all masochists fetishize pain by the clinical definition you seem to be sticking to. I don't actually need to experience pain to become aroused (or to cause it, seeing as how I'm a switch and like both--so does that make me doubly fucked-up in your estimation?) and I don't necessarily become aroused when I experience the fun kind of pain (as opposed to the stubbing your toe kind). They can intertwine, but they're not actually interdependent. I just really like the way getting punched feels.

You're not doing anyone favors by pathologizing their sexuality; we've had enough of that, thanks. If someone is perfectly content with their sexual interests and it's not a detriment to them or their life, why not take a presumably reasonable adult at their word when they say they enjoy the sensations they experience?