Similarities in doms and subs of both sexes

[BrightlyGo]

Our sexual preferences evolve over our lifetime, and they are typically formed during our "critical periods" (like in our childhoods). Our tastes change, according to our experience or by what the society feeds us (what is sexy now is different than what was sexy last century).

Not so much, no. Little things, perhaps, fetishes in the clinical sense, maybe, but basic orientation/sexuality/identity is not that fluid, and denying who you are can be very damaging.

how many had a taste for BDSM, until they discovered it?

Most of 'em, i think. You may not have a name for it, but it's there. When you finally discover you're not the only one...

Second, by giving more of it, they would naturally want more of it, they would start to build tolerances and want more and more.

That's one way of looking at addiction, and there are addicts out there, and also people who safely engage in the same things without becoming addicted.

I'm not trying to "rescue", but rather, what I'm asking is, "Is it good for them?" I'm not saying it in "I know what's best for them" kind of a way.

You really are. You may be clumsily trying to use the socratic method to 'teach' the folks you're judging how effdup they are, but, don't kid yourself that phrasing intolerance as a question makes it anything else.

So this goes back to the question: How or why are either sadism or masochism ever a good thing?

They can be a healthy (yeah, really) part of a person's sexuality. They can be explored safely if you're careful enough.

And why should these tendencies be encouraged?

'Encouraged,' accepted, nurtured - pick a word for it - helping, or at least standing back and allowing, people to accept themselves and be comfortable in their own skins is a good thing. Telling people their defective or shaming them because they don't conform to your narrow-minded ideals is, if you're so unfortunate as succeed, potentially quite damaging.

Will this make them happier in the long run? Is it good for them?

Yes & yes.

I'm questioning the basic premise and assumption about BDSM.

BDSM is really a trybrid of B&D, D/s, and SM. You seem to be focusing on the last...

Sadistic urges are bad, but there are willing subs, so it is okay. That's the entire reason why it's justified: It is "consensual".

SS&C doesn't /justify/ BDSM. The fact that there are actual human beings who /are/ Doms & subs, sadist & masochists, and have as much right as anyone to control their own lives and their own sexuality as anyone else, justifies it. SS&C certainly helps with legality and ethics, though.

We are also told that sadistic urges are "instinctual", and therefore why the doms supposedly have them. This must mean that the subs are the only people who are advanced, or perhaps subservient, and therefore altruistic enough, to forgo their own pleasure and sacrifice themselves in order to pleasure the doms.

Doms aren't automatically sadists, and subs can have needs every bit as intense as their Doms.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Come on... you guys take this shit too seriously... it's just BDSM...

Yeah, no.

People have lost jobs, families, and their liberty because the wrong person in the wrong place decided that BDSM was a sickness. And many of us give a lot of thought to the ethics of our relationships because we are REALLY STRONGLY COMMITTED to not harming our partners.

So when yet another person wanders in and says "hey, you people are icky, justify your existence!" they can expect to be told where to go.

I want to ask you this: Do you really think that it's a good idea to encourage either sadism or masochism in others?

Reminds me of the people who think The Gays are trying to convert them to homosexuality...

I wouldn't know where to start in "encouraging" somebody else to develop masochistic tendencies, and I've never had to. There are plenty of masochists out there already.

It's funny... in BDSM, we talk about "pleasing", yet somehow that turns into something like "slavery" and "pain". Apparently, deep down, all we "really" want to do is succumb to our supposed basal urges, like enslaving others or inflicting pain, and only the subs are holy enough to go beyond this primal instinct and sacrifice themselves for the pleasure of the doms. It doesn't work that way.

No, it doesn't. Who said it did?

BDSMers certainly do enjoy fictional scenarios where one person's happiness is sacrificed for another, willingly or otherwise. But IRL, most doms and subs are there because they enjoy their parts in those scenarios.

As for "doms succumbing to their basal urges"... well, as a dom, I have to stay mindful of some not-very-primal stuff: are those ropes too tight? Do I need to watch out for her bad shoulder? Where are my EMT shears, in case I have to untie her in a hurry? Is she hydrated, warm? Is she in danger of a sugar crash? And is she enjoying this?

Second, by giving more of it, they would naturally want more of it, they would start to build tolerances and want more and more extreme sex, and the "old" stuff becomes boring, so they must put more and more effort into even be able to achieve sexual gratification or an orgasm.

Yeah, I know what you mean there. I used to enjoy petting kittens. But then I got desensitised and regular kittens didn't do it for me any more. I had to move on to lynxes, and then cheetahs, and now I'm paying a smuggler to ship in lion and tiger cubs for me. And even that's starting to get stale. I think I'm going to have to escalate to ligers.

No, wait, that never happened. I still love petting kittens! It still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

And after two decades I still enjoy "boring old" vanilla sex (and cuddling up and sleeping with people) as well as the kinky stuff. Where does that fit into this theory?

People are complicated. Sexuality is complicated. Sitting in an armchair working out theories about other people's sexuality accomplishes nothing. The only way to find out how BDSM actually works with real people is to put the theories away and listen to their experiences.

I'm not trying to "rescue", but rather, what I'm asking is, "Is it good for them?" I'm not saying it in "I know what's best for them" kind of a way. So this goes back to the question: How or why are either sadism or masochism ever a good thing?

Two people walk into a room and shut the door. An hour later they walk out smiling; one has some bruises that'll take a few days to fade, but both of them are happier than they were before.

That sure sounds like a good thing to me. I don't have to explain why they enjoyed it, it's sufficient to acknowledge that they did.

And why should these tendencies be encouraged? Will this make them happier in the long run? Is it good for them?

Rather than hypothesising to answer that question, why don't we look at what actually happens?

There's already been a fair bit of research into the psychological wellbeing of BDSMers, and as far as I've seen the general conclusion is that BDSMers aren't very much different from everybody else. (If you're curious, Pamela Stephenson Connolly has published quite a bit of this.)

At this point, if you want to tell us that BDSM is psychologically damaging, the onus is on you to produce evidence for that. Not simplistic theories for how it could conceivably be damaging if other people's brains work the way you imagine they do, but observational evidence.

Cites or GTFO.

 

[Sweetdaisymae]

Sweet potato fries and kittens!
DGE, Bramblethorn, I love you guys!!!

 

[JustADom]

This is the kind of stuff that you actually learn in psychology. If you're curious, then take some psychology classes.

Anyway, I still feel that BDSM is "wrong". I guess that I still have "vanilla" reactions. Actually, I'd rather be vanilla.

I don't say that there aren't some of the aspects of BDSM that turn me on. Yet I still feel that it's wrong. There's no way to justify it, and I'm not convinced that it is. I'm not religious, I'm not close-minded, I'm liberal, but not libertarian. That's just how it makes me feel. There's still a feeling of repulsion and disgust and sometimes infuriation.

I find it weird that people don't think that it's weird. I don't even see "Yes, I KNOW it's fucked up, but it's what gets me off!" People treat it as if it were normal. Perhaps they do think of it, but not express it. It's a strange community, the BDSM community.

If I stayed in the BDSM community for too long, then I think I'd go a little crazy. It feels like people are just lying to themselves sometimes, when BDSM can't be held up to even the slightest of scrutiny. I may need to get my head out of BDSM.

 

[Sweetdaisymae]

And so to summerise:
You identify far more as vanilla.
Some kink turns you on.
BDSM makes you crazy.

So go be the person you feel you are!
Stop pointing the finger and telling me I am crazy for the urges I have, I would not point at you, scream "vanilla" then run away laughing.

The bottom line is you have no tolerance to that which you don't like or understand.

Sounds a lot like certain religious communities I know of!

 

[JustADom]

I never called you or anyone crazy... And my intention is not to point fingers and I'm sorry that you felt that way. Right now, I don't exactly identify as vanilla, but I think I'd rather be vanilla in the future.

I don't care if you called me vanilla and laughed... but actually, that's exactly what the BDSM community does. They say "vanilla", and laugh. I see double standards there...

This whole "you don't understand" stuff is unfounded... I think I understand (the psychology behind) BDSM too much. That's why I'm causing frictions, lol.

 

[Bramblethorn]

This is the kind of stuff that you actually learn in psychology. If you're curious, then take some psychology classes.

Psychology is something of an inexact science; there's enough wiggle room that people who come to it with their own preconceptions can always come up with a theory that supports those preconceptions.

The question is whether there's evidence to support those theories, and I've already pointed you in the direction of professional psych research that indicates it doesn't.

I don't say that there aren't some of the aspects of BDSM that turn me on. Yet I still feel that it's wrong.

Then don't do it. Nobody here is telling you that you have to do BDSM - frankly, I think most of us would be delighted if you found some other hobby.

There's no way to justify it, and I'm not convinced that it is. I'm not religious, I'm not close-minded, I'm liberal, but not libertarian. That's just how it makes me feel. There's still a feeling of repulsion and disgust and sometimes infuriation.

Everybody has their gut reactions. If yours makes you feel icky at the idea of BDSM, I recommend not doing it and not reading about it. But your personal "ick" is not my "ick", and nobody's "ick" is a substitute for a framework of ethics.

I find it weird that people don't think that it's weird. I don't even see "Yes, I KNOW it's fucked up, but it's what gets me off!" People treat it as if it were normal. Perhaps they do think of it, but not express it. It's a strange community, the BDSM community.

Nope. It's that we don't care what's "normal", because "normal" and "ethical" are orthogonal concepts.

If I stayed in the BDSM community for too long, then I think I'd go a little crazy. It feels like people are just lying to themselves sometimes, when BDSM can't be held up to even the slightest of scrutiny. I may need to get my head out of BDSM.

Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

(Unless you enjoy that sort of thing.)

 

[KoPilot]

Psychology is something of an inexact science; there's enough wiggle room that people who come to it with their own preconceptions can always come up with a theory that supports those preconceptions.

Or, you know, just not look at the stuff that proves them wrong.

 

[Netzach]

You're an expert because you took psych 101 with dated materials and oh look, we're not even in the damn manual as crazy anymore.

Neither are gay people.

Good luck with changing your sexual orientation so you're vanilla. Seriously. You're gonna need it.

 

[CutieMouse]

Actually, I greatly dislike the term "vanilla", and do my best to avoid its usage.

JustADom, what are your thoughts re: professional therapists and BDSM? I don't mean therapists engaging in BDSM activities. I'm thinking of licensed professionals who have no issue with a client's BDSM activities.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is the kind of stuff that you actually learn in psychology. If you're curious, then take some psychology classes.

A little learning is a dangerous thing.

Anyway, I still feel that BDSM is "wrong". I guess that I still have "vanilla" reactions. Actually, I'd rather be vanilla.

I don't say that there aren't some of the aspects of BDSM that turn me on. Yet I still feel that it's wrong. There's no way to justify it, and I'm not convinced that it is. I'm not religious, I'm not close-minded, I'm liberal, but not libertarian. That's just how it makes me feel. There's still a feeling of repulsion and disgust and sometimes infuriation.

I find it weird that people don't think that it's weird. I don't even see "Yes, I KNOW it's fucked up, but it's what gets me off!" People treat it as if it were normal. Perhaps they do think of it, but not express it. It's a strange community, the BDSM community.

If I stayed in the BDSM community for too long, then I think I'd go a little crazy. It feels like people are just lying to themselves sometimes, when BDSM can't be held up to even the slightest of scrutiny. I may need to get my head out of BDSM.

You need to do a whole lot of self examination. Stop looking at other people and look at yourself.

 

[Netzach]

This is what happens when BDSM means "every time someone has a thought they think is quirky" versus "Leather" - too narrow, maybe, but at least it's fairly intelligible.

The community has become what you feel or what you are in your own mind - and almost completely devoid of what you do. It's like "I dreamed I kissed my best friend once, omg" suddenly deciding the place for her is in the Lesbian Sex Mafia. Oy.

So every time someone has a hint of an urge, they're now in the same category as people who need the NCSF if anyone ever looked in their houses.

It takes a lot to get me into a circling the wagons moment, but now I understand why that happens.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't care if you called me vanilla and laughed... but actually, that's exactly what the BDSM community does. They say "vanilla", and laugh. I see double standards there...

What else should we do, put "vanilla" in the DRSM? Tell vanilla people that they should be ashamed of themselves for what they do? Refuse to admit that vanilla is okay for them that likes it?

yeah, I laugh when some fucked-in-the-head asshole shows up claiming that God gave him the fire in the belly and showed him that what I do is the work of the devil. And then when he whines about 'double standards' I have to laugh twice as hard.

 

[KoPilot]

Actually, I greatly dislike the term "vanilla", and do my best to avoid its usage.

JustADom, what are your thoughts re: professional therapists and BDSM? I don't mean therapists engaging in BDSM activities. I'm thinking of licensed professionals who have no issue with a client's BDSM activities.

The thing is that he shouldn't have thoughts about it other than "it's fine unless the client says otherwise". Like Nets said, it's not in the DSM anymore for a reason.

 

[unicorn64]

I think what scares me is that the consensual trying to please will turn to pain and slavery. In the stories anyway the Dom or Master is pushing the Sub or slave to their limits maybe beyond. Why can't I be vanilla with a few kinks.

To the person who said he thought the Bible was BDSM. Women submit to your husbands. But some forget it also says Husband love your wife as Christ loved the church. I think that sometimes a true Dom / submissive may be more biblical than the community would admit to. Course some religions prescribe that sex is only to pro create, which is what most vanilla men really want. To spread their seed in hopes of creating a new lie. I sat if that is the case, its only for pro creation then why did he design the clit, which only is for the purpose of pleasure. He gave us our urges and many in the church forget that sex is not bad, cheating on your husband/wife is. Taking your fathers wife is bad. Sexual sin is the only sin against our own bodies. Yet there are just as many divorces of people in the body as well as deacons and pastors. All human with human tendencies that were given by God. They also sometimes forget that even the so called patriarchs of the bible were drawn into the sexual sin arena. Abraham took his wife's handmaid thus we have Muslims. David took a lover and even killed her husband in order to cover up the wife's sin. Getting pregnant by another man other than her husband was the death penalty. She would have been stoned to death. Not much different today so to speak. Society always blames the woman even in the case of rape. Just saying.

 

[Dyslexicea]

JustADom, you've come to this board with preconceived opinions, you're not here to learn. Putting Dom in your nick doesn't make you a Dom, in my humble opinion you have never been involved in any way with BDSM, maybe your just a troll who wants to be the center of attention.

Before you quote books that are merely voodoo science you should understand some of the basics we do know about the human brain. May I suggest "50 Human Brain Ideas You Really Need to Know" by Mo Costandi.

Again you quote voodoo science with your statement "the masochists actually fused their pain centers in their brains with their pleasure centers". Pleasure activates many areas of the brain in different lobes of the brain while pain on the other hand activates a very specific part of the brain. If fusion of different part of the brain were to happen, which is impossible, the end result would be a dead human being.

Following is from a study done by the University of Groningen in the Netherlands. Speaking about the brain differences during sex we have from that of a male. I'm leaving out the similarities, do your own research, real research not more voodoo.

"There are some differences, however. When a woman has sex, a part of the brain stem called the periaqueductal gray (PAG) is activated. The PAG controls the "flight or fight" response. Women's brains also showed decreased activity in the amygdala and hippocampus, which deal with fear and anxiety. In addition, the area of the cortex associated with pain was activated in women, which shows that there is a distinct connection between pain and pleasure."

The connection between pain and pleasure for us is not at all associated with mental illness as you seem to contend but a natural part of a very complex brain response to sex. Pain under the right circumstance can also produce sexual arousal and pleasure. That does not mean for any of us that all pain is going to produce sexual pleasure. If I happen to be injured, my body sends that signal to my brain producing the feeling of pain with no pleasure whatsoever.

Flight or fight. Fear is another area which in my opinion can produce a high very similar to orgasms but without the loss of control. I rock and mountain climb, actually solo climb, I also free climb, dangerous yes, fear yes, adrenaline high along with a large dose of endorphins. I dare say most BDSM is safer than free climbing, I have no safety net, I have no rope to stop my fall. If I fall most likely I'll never walk away. Combine the high of climbing with sex just after a climb and you have no idea just how all consuming sex can be. Tell me am I mentally ill because I take risks, because part of why I climb is the high? If you condemn me as mentally ill you condemn all those who take similar risks. Maybe we all need to sit at home reading voodoo science.

Forget all the pop psychology, you absolutely don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. A recent study, published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, has shown that those of us who do practice BDSM are better off psychologically than the general public.

 

[BrightlyGo]

This is the kind of stuff that you actually learn in psychology. If you're curious, then take some psychology classes.

My Domme was a psych major in college, she's gotten out her DSM-IV and gone over criteria to show that i'm not as crazy as i think i am.

Anyway, I still feel that BDSM is "wrong". I guess that I still have "vanilla" reactions. Actually, I'd rather be vanilla.

I don't say that there aren't some of the aspects of BDSM that turn me on. Yet I still feel that it's wrong. There's no way to justify it, and I'm not convinced that it is. I'm not religious, I'm not close-minded, I'm liberal, but not libertarian. That's just how it makes me feel. There's still a feeling of repulsion and disgust and sometimes infuriation.

It's OK to feel that it's "wrong for you," but don't go judging the whole community based on your personal inner conflicts. It's very clear from what you just said there that you're conflicted: you are turned on by some of what's under the BDSM ubrella (which is pretty large, BTW, i doubt anyone's into /everything/ that it encompasses), and repulsed by other things. If you could tease out the parts you like, and not be judgmental about others who like different aspects, you might even incorporate them into your life in a healthy way.

I find it weird that people don't think that it's weird. I don't even see "Yes, I KNOW it's fucked up, but it's what gets me off!" People treat it as if it were normal. Perhaps they do think of it, but not express it. It's a strange community, the BDSM community.

There are things that i'll point out and say 'that's fucked up,' but, ironically, they're usually things where some broader cultural prejudice is influencing the way a kink is presented.

It feels like people are just lying to themselves sometimes, when BDSM can't be held up to even the slightest of scrutiny.

Thing is, it has been held up to scrutiny. The medical profession has scrutinized things like S&M, and concluded they're not sexual disorders or mental conditions. Consensual BDSM has stood up to legal tests.

If I stayed in the BDSM community for too long, then I think I'd go a little crazy. I may need to get my head out of BDSM.

Maybe you're already there? You should really do some soul-searching and try to understand and resolve this conflict you seem to be struggling with. If it was triggered by that study you mentioned about how masochists' brains supposedly work, BTW, you really shouldn't be wingeing over it so much. Theories like that are interesting in an academic way, but they still don't change the fact that there are people out there that will readily and honestly consent to certain things - including receiving pain.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I never called you or anyone crazy... And my intention is not to point fingers and I'm sorry that you felt that way. Right now, I don't exactly identify as vanilla, but I think I'd rather be vanilla in the future.

I don't care if you called me vanilla and laughed... but actually, that's exactly what the BDSM community does.

I dislike the use of "vanilla" as an insult, and I've said so before. People's consensual preferences should be respected.

But to me, "you're boring and unadventurous" - while rude - is not in the same league as "you're a bunch of mentally-damaged people in denial, what you do is morally indefensible and you're permanently harming your partners". Motes vs beams, and all that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think what scares me is that the consensual trying to please will turn to pain and slavery. In the stories anyway the Dom or Master is pushing the Sub or slave to their limits maybe beyond. Why can't I be vanilla with a few kinks.

In the stories... all women have gigantic perky breasts. Delivering pizza is a great way to get laid by strangers. Sex never gets interrupted by the cat jumping on the bed and throwing up six inches from your face. Condoms, STIs, and unwanted pregnancy are all but non-existent. Doms are telepathic. Subs never get itchy noses or sudden cramps when tied up. Poker is always played for clothes. Everybody's eighteen.

Stories are stories. They're not much of a guide to how RL works.

 

[KoPilot]

I think what scares me is that the consensual trying to please will turn to pain and slavery. In the stories anyway the Dom or Master is pushing the Sub or slave to their limits maybe beyond. Why can't I be vanilla with a few kinks.

In my stories the s gets suffocated under a 500-lb ballsack and "roach" is a term of endearment. This might be me, but I think fiction is basically irrelevant here.

And "vanilla with a few kinks" is, and I'm willing to bet money on this, the way the majority of humans are. At least those of us here in the western world.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Allow me to recommend a book;
When Someone You Love is Kinky by Dossie Eastman.

 

[IrisAlthea]

This is the kind of stuff that you actually learn in psychology. If you're curious, then take some psychology classes.

Anyway, I still feel that BDSM is "wrong". I guess that I still have "vanilla" reactions. Actually, I'd rather be vanilla.

I don't say that there aren't some of the aspects of BDSM that turn me on. Yet I still feel that it's wrong. There's no way to justify it, and I'm not convinced that it is. I'm not religious, I'm not close-minded, I'm liberal, but not libertarian. That's just how it makes me feel. There's still a feeling of repulsion and disgust and sometimes infuriation.

I find it weird that people don't think that it's weird. I don't even see "Yes, I KNOW it's fucked up, but it's what gets me off!" People treat it as if it were normal. Perhaps they do think of it, but not express it. It's a strange community, the BDSM community.

If I stayed in the BDSM community for too long, then I think I'd go a little crazy. It feels like people are just lying to themselves sometimes, when BDSM can't be held up to even the slightest of scrutiny. I may need to get my head out of BDSM.

You know, there is a reason why people say "Welcome to the dark side" and not "Welcome to the fluffy pink side".

I think most people into kinky stuff have done their part of soulsearching and thinking about these things.
If you read older threads you will find discussions on these issues, but in the end everyone has to decide where their limit is and what they are ok with and it gets tiring if you have to defend your values to every new person that comes along on a message board.

Do I think some people are doing things that are way past my limits?
Yes, but when I go looking for something to get morally outraged about, consenting adults getting off is not anywhere near the list.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I dislike the use of "vanilla" as an insult, and I've said so before. People's consensual preferences should be respected.

But to me, "you're boring and unadventurous" - while rude - is not in the same league as "you're a bunch of mentally-damaged people in denial, what you do is morally indefensible and you're permanently harming your partners". Motes vs beams, and all that.

"Vanilla" in this context, is like "Christian" in a political context-- indicative of a smug and unquestioning belief that one's limits are universally shared and lauded, and those other people should know it.

 

[Dyslexicea]

"Vanilla" in this context, is like "Christian" in a political context-- indicative of a smug and unquestioning belief that one's limits are universally shared and lauded, and those other people should know it.

Let's not go there we'll only end up in a God fight, big G intended to show respect for those of you who believe in a deity, I happen not to do so.