Similarities in doms and subs of both sexes

[Ruby_Atom]

I think you'll find that most people who enjoy pain (where it does indeed hurt) have not had a traumatic childhood that made them the way they are. I like pain, sometimes. It's highly stimulating and exhilarating. I don't require it to orgasm, so it's not a strict fetish. My childhood was totally normal! My patents didn't hit me. I didn't have any kind of horrible illness.

Let's also put things in perspective: we are talking flogging and spanking here. Maybe some hot wax, clamps, and that kind of thing. We aren't talking medieval torture devices. When you say "immense pain", I think of getting my arm hacked off.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It is possible to derive sexual pleasure from pain, but that's really the fetishization of pain. That's the whole point of seeking pain... to derive sexual pleasure out of it (in fact, they may not be able to be turned on or achieve an orgasm without it). But you do still feel pain... right?

So my point is... how do you justify the fact, that you (doms) are causing their partners pain?

Very easily: "Am I a consenting adult? Are my partners consenting adults? Did we ask anybody else for their opinion? Then it's nobody else's business."

It's quite legitimate to ask why people enjoy BDSM, even if it's almost impossible to answer. But it's important to separate "explain" from "justify".

I don't like beer or coffee. They taste like swill to me, and I don't enjoy intoxication or caffeination. Nobody has ever managed to explain to me why those things would be fun. But I don't have to understand those things. I accept that some people have made a decision to drink that stuff, and even if I think it's a bad decision that'll make them miserable in the long run, it's generally not my business unless they're imposing negative externalities on others.

So it is with BDSM. If you don't understand why some people like being hurt, and you want to learn something, you're very welcome to ask. But don't mix that up with justification.

As to why people enjoy pain: where did we get the idea that they shouldn't?

We have this simplified model of the world that says "pain is associated with injury and things that cause pain are bad, so nobody should wear black". But that's hugely oversimplified. Might as well say "black is the colour of death so nobody should wear black". Should people be considered sick if they listen to sad songs and watch films that make them cry? Are joggers mentally ill because they love the burn that comes with exercise?

The brain is complicated. Anybody who thinks human sexual behaviour can be explained in terms of a few hormones and a simple logical model needs to go read up on emergence: complex systems frequently develop behaviours that are not feasible to explain in terms of their component parts. (Those behaviours are caused by the components, but the mechanism is too complex to be understood.)

 

[KoPilot]

Well I don't know about you... but knowing that someone is in pain... is not sexy to me.

Good thing I don't care what you think because I'm already married and get my pain from someone who doesn't concern troll, thankyouverymuch.

What's your endgoal here, dude?

Are you trying to make us all see the light and convince us that we're as "fucked up" as you think we are? Are you actually trying to understand? Or are you here to preach things that make no sense, have no basis in reality, and only sound appealing to you because you are inexperienced and probably don't talk to other kinky folk all that often?

A lot of us don't have time for the evangelical protestant-style self-loathing that you seem to struggle with.

Oh and you still haven't told me what "genuine pain" is supposed to be.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, that's not what I mean. If a person must go through pain in order to achieve sexual gratification, and not because he really wants to, then I'd find that cruel and tragic, especially knowing that he doesn't possibly have to go through that pain. But he does, anyway, because he has fetishized pain and associated pain with sex in his early years or later years or something like that. The more humane approach would be to not indulge him in his sexual games, but to direct him towards better, easier, safer, more satisfying ways of achieving sexual gratification.

I don't think that's humane. And I don't think it's respectful. And I think he'd just go find someone else to have sex with rather than thank you for your humane and considerate officiousness.You sound just like one of those sanctimonious 'cure the gays' types.

He he loathes himself because of his needs, then yeah-- some therapy would maybe help him. But my guess is he loathes himself because assholes like you have told him he's a poor sick man. And then denying him his orgasms.

 

[Netzach]

I'm kind of grossed out by anyone who is happy to provide control for their partner and not question "why the fuck would anyone feel like they have to have that" while thinking that if they want a freaking whack on the ass for endorphins it makes her fucked in the head. Ew. Being controlled by your male mate is guess what - a hell of a lot higher RISK than getting a beating on the butt with a stingy whip. I'll take the latter ANY day.

Since you're so busy worrying about whether everyone else's sexyfuntime is unhealthy and BAD for them, "JustADom" what about YOUR idea, which I'm guessing involves some control or pseudodaddying or whatever the hell gets you off. What's up with THAT? Sexist much? Don't you wonder what's with the girls who like that? What's your litmus test on mental health for any girl who would want to be bossed around by you? Or do you believe her when she says she likes it and that's that?

Either BOTH are sad and wrong and tragic or neither are, and what gets people off gets people off and communication and consent are the key. You cannot have your vanilla cupcake with icing gently laced with a whiff of lemon and eat it too. You can prefer it. You can cradle it close. You can avoid the people who prefer red velvet and devil's food and salted caramel. But your cupcake isn't health food either, and everyone gets a right to their own.

Either BOTH pain and submission are the product of some therapy-fixable and NEEDED change or neither are - unless and until it's a problem for that person.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Do you think that I'm vanilla?

Ironically, perhaps, i was using 'vanilla' as an extreme example. People in relationships suffer for eachother all the time. With S&M relationships, i guess, it's a more important feature and more closely intertwined with sex and pleasure. With other BDSM relationships it may merely be more formalized, part of the 'discipline' or D/s aspect.

No... I was into BDSM (or so I thought) a day ago. But I can't ever knowingly harm someone and not feel like that's fucked up. See... I'm not a complete sociopath. This may seem like a strange thing to say for a dom, but I feel pain when others are feeling pain. Well, that's just the normal empathy response.

That doesnt' sound strange at all. Doms need a healthy amount of empathy to be functional in their role, i'd think (looking at it from the outside, since i've never been in the dominant headspace, myself).

I'm starting to feel the same feelings that I've felt when I first discovered BDSM a few years ago. And that is of mix of infuriation, rage, anger, sadness, disgust, pity, etc. And those feelings are coming back. I'm kind of glad that I'm feeling this way again.

Sounds like you're deeply conflicted about your own kink, there.

1) You're not feeling pleasure, you're feeling pain, 100%. What is anyone supposed to do, knowing that you're in pain?

Hopefully, if they're a sadist, get off on it. Seriously, though, it's contextual. If i'm receiving pain She intended to give, there's nothing wrong - She's in control of it, She's not hurting me (She mostly uses pressure points), it will stop when She decides it will. If She hurts me unintentionally, She's all concern and apologies.

OTOH, if I'm in pain at an emergency room, I hope the people involved will be able to help me with it!

2) You've fetishized and sexualized the experience of pain and suffering and humiliation (we all have fetishes).

Meh. Actual fetishes in the clinical sense, i don't have, and humiliation isn't something i'm particularly into. But, no, this isn't something that happened to me or that i conditioned myself to need, it's who i am, just like being straight or gay, cis- or trans-.

Like doms, subs also come up with justifications and idealize their experiences, like "I'm suffering for my partner" "I'm being a slave to my duty" "I'm doing everything for him/her" ...

Fantasies are idealized, realities, not so much - and there's no need to 'justify' this stuff,

 

[JustADom]

Just to be sure, these questions are as much questions to myself as to others. I thought that I was into BDSM, but then I had a moral dilemma, and now I lost interest in BDSM, or at least I'm not as enthusiastic about it anymore (yes, I could easily do this because I was never really that into it in the first place...). (And maybe you'd be like "Then GTFO! Stop teh judging!" I mean yeah... but I still think that it's an interesting thing to talk about. I have to talk about it more so that I can let it go...)

I don't know if there are people who are enjoying the kind of things that I'm writing, but personally... I think that it's interesting. I'm more fascinated by these things than anything. I thought that maybe people could talk about these things more objectively, because some of the things may deserve some serious attention.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You have been so busy filtering everything through your personal subjective sense of horror you've missed your chance at objective discussion.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Just to be sure, these questions are as much questions to myself as to others. I thought that I was into BDSM, but then I had a moral dilemma, and now I lost interest in BDSM, or at least I'm not as enthusiastic about it anymore (yes, I could easily do this because I was never really that into it in the first place...).

How did you get into BSDM, if it didn't interest you? Were you dragged into it by the needs of an SO or something?

 

[JustADom]

I think I've found a new fetish... and that is to free people from the tyranny that is BDSM...

I'm kidding... kind of.

But if people were like "This is bullshit... I'm getting out of this (unhealthy) BDSM relationship... and I'm going to find my new self...", then that would make me glow...

There is nothing that makes me happier than people regaining their independence.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think I've found a new fetish... and that is to free people from the tyranny that is BDSM...

I'm kidding... kind of.

But if people were like "This is bullshit... I'm getting out of this (unhealthy) BDSM relationship... and I'm going to find my new self...", then that would make me glow...

There is nothing that makes me happier than people regaining their independence.

There are unhealthy BDSM relationships. There are also plenty of unhealthy vanilla relationships.

 

[KoPilot]

I think I've found a new fetish... and that is to free people from the tyranny that is BDSM...

I'm kidding... kind of.

But if people were like "This is bullshit... I'm getting out of this (unhealthy) BDSM relationship... and I'm going to find my new self...", then that would make me glow...

There is nothing that makes me happier than people regaining their independence.

Okay well go start an organization about it elsewhere. Don't come onto a BDSM forum, where we are all pretty happy about ourselves, and try and convince us otherwise.

Jesus christ.

 

[Ropebunny]

I think I've found a new fetish... and that is to free people from the tyranny that is BDSM...

I'm kidding... kind of.

But if people were like "This is bullshit... I'm getting out of this (unhealthy) BDSM relationship... and I'm going to find my new self...", then that would make me glow...

There is nothing that makes me happier than people regaining their independence.

Good for you. Are you religious? That kind of thing would work well in an evangelical cult. You could set up outside Kink.com headquarters in San Diago and picket them daily. Maybe save a soul or two.

Think about it.

 

[Kellydude666]

Okay well go start an organization about it elsewhere. Don't come onto a BDSM forum, where we are all pretty happy about ourselves, and try and convince us otherwise.

Jesus christ.

Boy, you fight with everyone, you really are just a class filthy cunt.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I think I've found a new fetish... and that is to free people from the tyranny that is [sweet potato fries]...

I'm kidding... kind of.

But if people were like "This is bullshit... I'm getting out of this (unhealthy) [sweet potato fry] relationship... and I'm going to find my new self...", then that would make me glow...

There is nothing that makes me happier than people regaining their independence.

I am sorry for your bad experience with sweet potato fries. I am sorry they make you sick, and you think they are bad for me. I would recommend you do not eat them while I am over here in this booth eating a huge plateful.

 

[JustADom]

Come on... you guys take this shit too seriously... it's just BDSM... Well, I'm taking it seriously... (And that was poking fun at Stella, she actually seems pretty cool, I don't care that she likes BDSM.)

And what's with the evangelicals? I thought the Bible was into BDSM... with all the "Turn the other cheek", "Obey God, Jesus, husband" and all that...

I want to ask you this: Do you really think that it's a good idea to encourage either sadism or masochism in others?

It's funny... in BDSM, we talk about "pleasing", yet somehow that turns into something like "slavery" and "pain". Apparently, deep down, all we "really" want to do is succumb to our supposed basal urges, like enslaving others or inflicting pain, and only the subs are holy enough to go beyond this primal instinct and sacrifice themselves for the pleasure of the doms. It doesn't work that way.

 

[KoPilot]

Dude, how high are you?

 

[BrightlyGo]

I want to ask you this: Do you really think that it's a good idea to encourage either sadism or masochism in others?

It's a good idea to encourage people to accept themselves, and to explore their desires safely and consensually.

 

[CutieMouse]

I want to ask you this: Do you really think that it's a good idea to encourage either sadism or masochism in others?

I believe it is a good idea for people to recognize that intimacy and sex are too complex to fit within a narrow definition. I believe that understanding is the first step towards acceptance. I believe everyone has to walk their own path, in and out of the bedroom. There are people out there who would be miserable without the sensations typically associated with sadomasochistic activities. As long as those people are behaving in an ethically responsible manner, mitigating risk as much a possible, and are able to maintain a productive life - who am I to deny them?

It's funny... in BDSM, we talk about "pleasing", yet somehow that turns into something like "slavery" and "pain".

I consider myself a part of the BDSM umbrella, but I don't personally identify as a slave. I intentionally choose partner who aren't interested in a Master/slave dynamic. I acknowledge enjoying some degree of masochism; however, I have worked my ass off to understand if/when any particular activity is in my best interest (and act accordingly).

No one needs to rescue me, or worry on my behalf... I'm quite capable of setting my own boundaries, thank you. My partner are, as well.

Apparently, deep down, all we "really" want to do is succumb to our supposed basal urges, like enslaving others or inflicting pain, and only the subs are holy enough to go beyond this primal instinct and sacrifice themselves for the pleasure of the doms. It doesn't work that way.

Deep down sex is fun. It feels good. (Even when one person's idea of "feels good" isn't the same as another's.) If it didn't feel good, the species wouldn't have survived this long. And I wouldn't go putting submissives on some golden pedestal of sacrificial sexual holiness... the number of submisives (both sexes) who tease, tempt, brat, and push their partners to give them what they want (rough sex, playful "punishment", scenarios "forcing" them to give into their desires without the Madonna/whore guilt, etc) is enough to burn most pedestals to the ground.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I want to ask you this: Do you really think that it's a good idea to encourage either sadism or masochism in others?

I went by your house at Halloween. I hung around awhile. I saw what transpired. *shudder* I want to ask you this: Do you really think it's a good idea to encourage demon worship and panhandling in others?

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is getting boring. I call shenanigans.

 

[CutieMouse]

This is getting boring. I call shenanigans.

Meh. It's been a while since we've had a self righteous newbie try to save us from our immoral, destructive ways... At least he isn't as offensive as He Who Must Not Be Named.

~smile~

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Meh. It's been a while since we've had a self righteous newbie try to save us from our immoral, destructive ways... At least he isn't as offensive as He Who Must Not Be Named.

~smile~

~cough~cough~

 

[seela]

At least he isn't as offensive as He Who Must Not Be Named.

~smile~

I'm glad I'm not the only one who got the same vibe.

 

[JustADom]

There are people out there who would be miserable without the sensations typically associated with sadomasochistic activities. As long as those people are behaving in an ethically responsible manner, mitigating risk as much a possible, and are able to maintain a productive life - who am I to deny them?

Well, here's what I think is the problem. Our sexual preferences evolve over our lifetime, and they are typically formed during our "critical periods" (like in our childhoods). Our tastes change, according to our experience or by what the society feeds us (what is sexy now is different than what was sexy last century). What used to turned us on before may not turn us on now, and even our preference for romantic partners may change over time according to our experience.

So "giving more of what they want", I think, is circular in itself. First, they would not have had this preference if it were not given to them in the first place (how many had a taste for BDSM, until they discovered it? I'm not saying that the desire was never there, but it must have woken something up inside). Second, by giving more of it, they would naturally want more of it, they would start to build tolerances and want more and more extreme sex, and the "old" stuff becomes boring, so they must put more and more effort into even be able to achieve sexual gratification or an orgasm.

An example is this. We don't have an innate, in-born taste for coffee, like we do for milk or sugar, we actually find the taste of bitterness disgusting. So liking the taste of coffee is an acquired taste. We actually spend our lifetime drinking what we DON'T like, in order to like it.

No one needs to rescue me, or worry on my behalf... I'm quite capable of setting my own boundaries, thank you. My partner are, as well.

I'm not trying to "rescue", but rather, what I'm asking is, "Is it good for them?" I'm not saying it in "I know what's best for them" kind of a way. So this goes back to the question: How or why are either sadism or masochism ever a good thing? And why should these tendencies be encouraged? Will this make them happier in the long run? Is it good for them?

And I wouldn't go putting submissives on some golden pedestal of sacrificial sexual holiness... the number of submisives (both sexes) who tease, tempt, brat, and push their partners to give them what they want (rough sex, playful "punishment", scenarios "forcing" them to give into their desires without the Madonna/whore guilt, etc) is enough to burn most pedestals to the ground.

I'm questioning the basic premise and assumption about BDSM. Sadistic urges are bad, but there are willing subs, so it is okay. That's the entire reason why it's justified: It is "consensual". We are also told that sadistic urges are "instinctual", and therefore why the doms supposedly have them. This must mean that the subs are the only people who are advanced, or perhaps subservient, and therefore altruistic enough, to forgo their own pleasure and sacrifice themselves in order to pleasure the doms.