Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

[Aeroil]

So wait, are you the other me who has created another account, purporting that I indeedlive in Montreal?! Or at least the other half of me lives in Montreal?

no I live in B.C. It quite clearly states that just below my Av if you wanna see.

 

[Xelebes]

no I live in B.C. It quite clearly states that just below my Av if you wanna see.

Right, right. Was thinking of Miss Diva. Sorry. The question still remains - are you my second half?

 

[Aeroil]

Right, right. Was thinking of Miss Diva. Sorry. The question still remains - are you my second half?

not only do I not know what makes you say that, but I highly doubt it.

 

[graceanne]

I am extremely confused

So am I. What exactly are you wanting to know?

I am a stay at home mom. I do not want to work, I want to stay home with my kids. It has nothing to do with pride or greed, I did not give birth so that I can pay others to raise them. That's just me. My sister, even when she doesn't have to, works. The reason? She'd go stark raving mad if she had to stay home all the time. She needs adult stimulation, and quite frankly she's flat out freaken irritating when she doesn't get it. It also has nothing to do with pride or greed.

That said, I agree that quite often 'needs' to Americans are actually 'wants' and that most American's don't need for both partners to work. Me and K just got our W2's back, and we figure all and all we made a total of 22,000 this year. (For a family of five.) I would not say that this year has been easy or a 'life of ease'. On the other hand, we do have interent, he has a cell phone (although the company pays that - we couldn't afford it), we are occasionally able to go out to dinner, etc. We do not have cable, but that's cause we watch too much crap when we do. And to tell the truth, it is more expensive to eat 'simply but healthfully' than it is to eat crap. I guarantee it.

On the other hand, it would cost us MORE money for me to work, in day care, than it does for me to stay home. Minimum day care costs for me are (and this is cheap) $6 an hour ($2 an hour per child). So for it to be cost effective for me to work, I need to make a minimum of about 8 to 10 an hour, because their'd be other expenses on top of childcare, like a work wardrobe for me, etc. Simply put, if I were to work we'd be LESS about $200 bucks a month.

 

[Aeroil]

When I posted that I was merely a bit confused about what she was asking or commenting on, grace

 

[BlueSugar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

I lived below the poverty line while raising my 2 single handed, and though it was tough at times, it was doable and we didn't go without food, nor the occasional treat of going to the movies, buying a new CD etc.

...

It often reminds me of the 3 year old tantrum in that if people don't get their needs met tenfold and in the style they feel appropriate, they act out their dissatisfaction on the rest of the world and those around them with an 'the world owes me' attitude.

Catalina

:: puts finger up to make a good point... quiets, takes different direction ::

I must admit you got me there, as someone was going to, that I had no doubt in. And I'm not saying it can't be done - by any means as long as we're living there is a way to overcome and succeed.
I don't know the standard of living in many other places, but can anyone out of the US say anything different from US popular culture of "need want more excessive" lifestyle...as in their own place of living. People can "make it and do well, live simple etc..." but is it easier out of the states?

My stepfather and birth mother were both working when they met, then married and my mother stayed home with the 4 children. And then she went to work when she was able to - but due to my step father's cronic health issues she had to quit again to take care of both him and the children, my older brother then used his income to help support the family. And this continued through most of my life... (I also never knew my birthfather bc he was murdered when I was 2, so its difficult now to say "step" bc it is all I've ever known --- due to how my birth father died, it obviously caused a riff in the family which still exists today -- making much of my school work pointless and difficult, needing to write up my family's medical history, and no one able to give me any info ... then I thought of all the other families in similar situations, which led me to think about society in a whole and thus the thread topic.

They manage, we all manage no matter how tough, but inflation is a hard thing to battle. I may be pulled out of the education system because I don't have the means to continue till a later part of my life (if I am at all able to continue in the long run) ... which is fine if it needs to happen - I'd rather complete and help out at the end when I can get a better job.

woah.. way off topic.. ok ... readjust...

then TNR came along and took part of my Lj post and we made this thread with it - helping me to not dwell on the distress in my life and proposing the twist on these situations.

Life is about ballance, utopia isn't possible. (not counting making our lives into our own little utopia) But it is thought provoking to think about how much pride / greed, needs, wants, and how lifestyles play on who we are, what we do... and how it could affect society.

 

[graceanne]

When I posted that I was merely a bit confused about what she was asking or commenting on, grace

Good for you. Me, too, hence why I quoted you.

 

[Aeroil]

oh . Well that makes sense, sorry .

 

[BlueSugar]

So am I. What exactly are you wanting to know?

Simply put, if I were to work we'd be LESS about $200 bucks a month.

I didn't want to know anything really, it was just new discussion brought to Lit. I knew when Lit came awake there would be more dynamics I was missing... and yours was one of them.

I used greed and pride because they were easy to understand and are issues in a BDSM relationship (as well as a 'nilla one).
Back into TNR's first post dealing more with the D/s aspect -again forgetting "the bottom chose to stay at home" and they were "made to stay at home" despite education and want to go to work bc of money spent on getting to the position you are able to hold. Bringing greed into wanting to work for the money like you geared your life to, and pride playing with mind/emotions with the D/s play ... and having it be an advantage with rationalizations.

 

[CutieMouse]

I have to pop into work for a couple hours, but I'll be back later today to peruse this one. (thank you Sir Brian )

 

[Kajira Callista]

Here is a different twist to things. suppose your D/s relationship...after 4 or 5 yrs fails.
I got preg and for health reasons was forced to be off my feet for 9 months with number 1. I still had my health care and some disability so i still *felt* like i was contributing. When it was time to go back to work...6 weeks after baby was born, i couldn't do it, I felt it was MY job to care for the baby and i didn't want to pay someone else the money i earned to do what i could do....anyway i stopped working, he decided he wanted me to raise the child, we could afford comfortable living so that was not an issue. Then one year later came child number two. We decided that a one bedroom apt wasn't cutting it and we needed to move. Instead of renting (cost would be more then current mortgage) we got married and bought a house.
Here was my first glimpse of reality... nothing was in my name, because i didn't have an income, although we were still "in love" at the time it did make me realize that i was up shits creek if he walked. He still wanted me home, the kids needed mommy in his opinion and i did what he wanted. In my head being mommy became my new career but no matter how much i did, he had problems with what i did not get done. I have come to realize that he resented supporting me and this is why he picked at me. I wanted to go back to work but because we were a one car family...i couldn't. He worked 3 hours away so when the kids started school...not having two cars became a problem also. I became not only dependant completely on him but on other ppl who helped us, such as my parents. I felt that all the stress and strain was on my shoulders. The relationship fell apart fast from there and we are now separated.
Anyway the point of my long story is this; if i want to go back out into the working world now...my skills are 8 yrs old and i need to first be retrained. If i go back into the working world now; more income in this house means more taxes, it also means that when my kids are sick i need to not work, it also means I'm not there when they get home and i have to pay someone to be there. I'm now having to give up more then im getting back both financially and emotionally by going back to work. So basically what I'm saying is that if you make a choice to be home, do it with care and do it knowing that the relationship may one day end...and make sure you are prepared for the "after" if that should happen.

 

[BlueSugar]

kajira

Normally I would say I'm not getting married nor having any children (but if it happens, it happens - I'm a realist) and I'd like to have my own place - I am too independant to be so dependant by dropping everything and staying home and giving up all that I have achieved- give me an unplanned pregnancy and my tune might change though of course.

I was raised to support myself incase my life does fall apart. I don't want money (I hate it really) and I don't lust for extra material needs (tv, latest electronics..etc..) But it is needed to live comfortably. I guess it is a pride issue to have to spend so much money on education and spend the rest of my life cooking.cleaning.changing diapers.submission.

The power play does so excite me, and I think of things like this - but living perfect 50's style, even Victorian style (Maledom/femsub) "traditional" cookie cutter lifestyle would be too unbearable unless M has a good position to bring home enough bacon to live comfortable with the standard 2.5 children/picket fence home. And even then I would feel as if I had nothing to contribute other then babies and child care -- the US has gone through too many equal rights and women's sufferage stages for me to accept to just stay home.

I respect it, I do, it is the best thing - but just difficult to do in society today for many reasons (some of which we have touched upon.) But minus the children ... would the feeling of not being able to contribute (pride issue) drive a person batty?

What I think but not saying: Advantage, as it may be (D/s in rationalization for the head space to get rid of the "not contributing") - it is Utopian thinking... and we aren't Stepford robots, we have souls and emotion.))

 

[CutieMouse]

Ok I read the thread.

Background- I spent the last 10 years as an at home parent. Over those 10 years I had 5 children. After 12 years of marraige I decided to end things, and I'm currently a single mother, with 5 children, who gets child support and chooses to only work part time in order to still be as "at home" as possible. My total income (including child support) for my family of 6 is $25,000. I have chosen to get assistance through WIC, but haven't bothered with welfare. My marriage was not a D/s marriage, although I gave financial control to my husband and didn't take finances over until LONG after I should have, and it took me ummm... 6+ years to get him to understand that yes I expected my name on the car loan and mortgage because if something happened to him I'd be up shit creek trying to start over. It can be done (single income family)- but the obsticals are great.

Now for my spin on a "traditional 50's homemaker" with a BDSM twist-

Say both parties have their degrees/careers and the Dom/me decides their submissive should stay home full time. That is the Dom/me's choice. However, I'd expect the Dom/me to take into account the sub's nature. For some submissives I'd imagine it would kill their soul to be a full time homemaker. For others (like me) it would be incredibly fulfilling. WEighing that would be part of a Dom/me's holding the sub in the hollow of their hand... part of their responsibility as Dom/me of that other soul. Another part of that responsibility would be making sure the submissive is legally protected/taken care of in the event that the couple splits up or the Dom/me dies. To do less than that IMO would be more a controlling in a bad way relationship than a honorable D/s relationship.

Dictating a lifestyle shift contrary to society's "rules" would be challenging under normal circumstances- trust me. To use a BDSM twist to it as a way to cope with the societal fallout would (IMO) take an extremely deep and well communicated relationship on top of a BDSM relationship.

Lets face it- caretakers in this world are not appreciated. Women who stay home full time are seen as traitors to the feminist movement, people cluck their tounges and comment on how they bet you're counting the days until the kids are in school and you can "get a real job". Child care workers are paid rediculously low wadges, as are people in the service industry (what I do PT now), teachers care for our youth 40ish hours a week and train their minds and are underpaid considering they are supporting the country's future workers and teaching them to THINK for God's sake. Take all those things and multiply the disdain, discomfort, and occasional disgust times ten if you happen to be a full time father/homemaker by the way. Stay at home Dad's have it worse than the rest of us.

So to take a person who is already in a lowly position in the eyes of society, and place the power exchange aspect on top of that burden.... to me it (again) it would take one hell of a strong relationship. Both parties (Dom/me and submissive) would face strain and pressure. Not just keeping up with the Jones' pressure- pressure to fit the mould. It's difficult enough to have your decision to do without/live simply/be home full time questioned and respond with "WE have chosen this". To respond with He/She chose this"... big farking can 'o worms dumped right on the newly scrubbed kitchen floor.

So while the individual parties involved might find it deeply satisfying and comforting on a core level... I do not believe it would make the decision or sacrifices necessary to live such a life easier in the long run.

 

[Netzach]

Yeah, I have that kind of upbringing myself. My parents had 15-25 grand a year with siz children sort of deal. Right now I am doing ok with only 5-6 K a year. But the cost of food is still going up and shelter is too. Inflation is having an impact on what foods we can buy. But people will survive ok with little pay, the question is how much of the people are living in that same condition.

What I am basically saying is that the purchasing power was greater then than now. Two incomes, while compensating for this difference while still making more. What this causes is a strain on the single-income families. Though, this is helped with the government subsidising/price-setting wheat and other farm goods to make the food accessible to the poor.

Anyways, enough of that. If we are talking the D/s twist.... then.... there isn't much of a twist to it as it is kinda status quo "from the fifties".

...


...


...

But in this new day and age, the idea of both parents working (which in all honesty is not uncommon as it was the norm for both partners to be working in the first half of the 18th century.) The idea of submission of staying at home against the desires of greed and a little better prosperity does work... I guess.

I grew up with my mom making no more than 25 K at any given point, and my grandparents pitching in.

I'm kind of over the simple life, I can navigate broke really well, but it's old for me.

'course I'm not pondering any babies and neither is M.

I would say that his status as a bottom would allow him to pitch over a normal career track for something creative if and when I should ever have created enough empire for both of us to be able to do what we want....

but likewise, his sense of service makes it more tolerable for him to have the more fixed/grounded of the 2 incomes while I do creative and unpredictable work

 

[sunfox]

Alrighty. If this rambles, too bad.. I'm sleepy today.

We made the choice to have me stay home with her because I didn't want to leave her to be raised by other people... I had a lot of trouble having her, and the possibility is there that I cannot have another. We also made that choice because, as graceanne stated, we would have spent more for me to work than we would have made, with our daughter in childcare. So monetarily, it made more sense, as well as being an emotional choice on my part.

C moved to take another job, and works for the government as a computer programmer. We do pretty well, though we have to pick and choose the indulgences we don't want to do without, and those we can do without. We have cell phones, internet, satellite tv because that's all you can get in the country, and a brand new house that we just built.

It could be said, and my friends have said it frequently, that I'm spoiled.. I stay home with my daughter, which I love doing.. in a new house, surrounded with nice things.. a new computer, a new puppy.. we have a two year old car.. we own three horses. But I do get tired of 'two year old conversation'.. I need adult time, and time away from her. Not often, but at least once a week. I do intend to work again part-time when C can watch her, but I'm a dog trainer, and so I can work from home, or take her with me if need be.. the new puppy is going to be the demonstration dog, so there was a purpose in that purchase too.

I'm not sure where I was going in all this. But our D/s, or pride, or greed, have very little to do with it all. If anything, I'm more proud that my child is so well behaved and polite, says thank you and please at two years old, and is so friendly and good with other children.. because -I- helped her to become this way. I'm raising my child, I'm spending time with her, and it doesn't hurt my pride to do so. On the contrary, I am very proud of myself for doing a good job with her.. and like it or not, motherhood is a large part of feminism. I'd still be her mother if I went to work full time. But I wouldn't be raising her anymore, not really.. and that isn't worth the extra money to me. And anyone who thinks it's easier to stay home than to have a job that you get paid for and benefits for, and vacation time, can come try this out for a month. No money, no benefits, no breaks, no time off, always something that has to be done in an endless parade of boring, but necessary, tasks.

I dare anyone to say to my face that I'm betraying women's equality. Or in the D/s context, to either say I'm either not a good subby because I don't work so my Dominant can put his feet up, or worse, that I'm a good little subby, playing housefrau for my Dominant. I'd knock the taste out of anyone's mouth who tried. Any decision made about my working/not working, is made as a couple, in equanimity.. because it's not about my submission, or his dominance. It's about what is best for our daughter and us as a family.

 

[BlueSugar]

Alrighty. If this rambles, too bad.. I'm sleepy today.

[snip]
I dare anyone to say to my face that I'm betraying women's equality. Or in the D/s context, to either say I'm either not a good subby because I don't work so my Dominant can put his feet up, or worse, that I'm a good little subby, playing housefrau for my Dominant. I'd knock the taste out of anyone's mouth who tried. Any decision made about my working/not working, is made as a couple, in equanimity.. because it's not about my submission, or his dominance. It's about what is best for our daughter and us as a family.

Well said. The Women's Liberation Society has a long history of lieing and being caught making things look and sound worse then they are to gain votes and support. With that being said, the other side of the coin -wanting to stay home, loving it and feeling fullfilled and it serving one of the MOST important services for generations to come. We mentioned teachers not getting paid enough... isn't nearly emphasized enough (which I could go on forever about.)

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: kajira

Normally I would say I'm not getting married nor having any children (but if it happens, it happens - I'm a realist) and I'd like to have my own place - I am too independant to be so dependant by dropping everything and staying home and giving up all that I have achieved- give me an unplanned pregnancy and my tune might change though of course.

I was raised to support myself incase my life does fall apart. I don't want money (I hate it really) and I don't lust for extra material needs (tv, latest electronics..etc..) But it is needed to live comfortably. I guess it is a pride issue to have to spend so much money on education and spend the rest of my life cooking.cleaning.changing diapers.submission.

The power play does so excite me, and I think of things like this - but living perfect 50's style, even Victorian style (Maledom/femsub) "traditional" cookie cutter lifestyle would be too unbearable unless M has a good position to bring home enough bacon to live comfortable with the standard 2.5 children/picket fence home. And even then I would feel as if I had nothing to contribute other then babies and child care -- the US has gone through too many equal rights and women's sufferage stages for me to accept to just stay home.

I respect it, I do, it is the best thing - but just difficult to do in society today for many reasons (some of which we have touched upon.) But minus the children ... would the feeling of not being able to contribute (pride issue) drive a person batty?

What I think but not saying: Advantage, as it may be (D/s in rationalization for the head space to get rid of the "not contributing") - it is Utopian thinking... and we aren't Stepford robots, we have souls and emotion.))

Well, i never in my life before my children were born depended on anyone for anything. I did well for myself and i was used to having what i wanted. If not for the kids and i was told he would prefer me home just because... i think that would be an issue of pride that might be hard to deal with.
If you think about it...this whole lifestyle goes against a lot of things we were taught as little girls and teens. I dont think batty would happen for me personally, but i do know you loose a little self worth sometimes. I would also think that in a D/s relationship that could be discussed and resolved a whole lot easier...as long as communication was kept wide opened.

 

[graceanne]

I personally could care less what the feminists think about me. I make it a rule to not listen to the opinion of people I don't know or like. I personally think that womens lib liberated the men, not the women, cause now women have to do it all. We didn't get released from our previous roles, we just got another one added. Now we have to be moms, homemakers, and bread winners, too![ Men, (as a rule - I know that some guys aren't like this) still, only have to work and be dads. They might do some housework and cooking, in the name of equality and all, but the woman is still doing the majority of it. Frankly, my hat is off to all the working mom's out there, cause they have one hell of a freaken hard job to do. I don't know if I could do it. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

 

[redelicious]

Hmmm. Not sure how much my experiences fit in with the BDSM theme of the thread, but I'll contribute.

My kids were both planned. My husband and I were in deep debt from day one of our marriage (and still are thanks to his student loans), so we decided to put off having kids. That also gave us an opportunity to enjoy our 20s without the extra responsibility of parenting. It was always my goal to have children and stay home with them. Much of my income when I was working either went towards paying off bills or was put in savings for use when I was no longer working. This was my choice, but really it was the only sensible thing to do.

The thing is, the money I set aside only lasted through my son's 2nd birthday. Both of our cars were 10+ years old and constantly in need of repair. We wanted to have another baby. And, hubby was pushing for us to move into a slightly larger house (the old one was just over 1000 sq. ft.). So I did the hardest thing I've ever done and put my son in day care so I could go back to work. Up until then I had been doing odd jobs when I could to make ends meet. But two car payments, medical bills, and a larger house payment required more stable income. I did what I had to do, but I'll tell you my son paid a price, and it just about killed me.

Now I'm home again with my son and daughter. Even though I worked last year I find myself in a very similar situation to the one I was in before. Fortunately my husband's income covers our regular monthly bills i.e., mortgage, electric, water, etc. Yes we have bare bones satellite, internet, and cell phone (which we use for all our long distance). Unfortunately my savings has run out again (extra medical bills we didn't plan for) and we don't have money for groceries - for the time being those are going on a credit card. So once again, it's up to me to find some kind of income to suppliment my husband's, in addition to all of the other responsibilities I already have.

I absolutely dread going back to work full time and I will fight it until it becomes my only option. Don't get me wrong, I like work (teaching) and I'm good at it too, but I believe my place right now is with my children. Home is not just where I want to be, but where I need to be, and where my children need me to be. It would be totally devistating to me if my husband were to insist on me going back to work so that we could have a more affluent lifestyle. He is reckless with money, and that's an issue for sure, but thankfully he likes the idea of me being home.

Some of the problem, I think, is that as a society we are not accustomed to delayed gratification. We are constantly inundated with *stuff* and told we need to have it NOW, and the thing is we don't need most of it. My kids are kids for such a short period of time. To my way of thinking I have the majority of my life to work and accumulate crap, but I just get a few years when my kids are young. I'm so thankful for every day that I don't *have* to work.

 

[sunfox]

I personally think that womens lib liberated the men, not the women, cause now women have to do it all. We didn't get released from our previous roles, we just got another one added. Now we have to be moms, homemakers, and bread winners, too![ Men, (as a rule - I know that some guys aren't like this) still, only have to work and be dads. They might do some housework and cooking, in the name of equality and all, but the woman is still doing the majority of it. Frankly, my hat is off to all the working mom's out there, cause they have one hell of a freaken hard job to do. I don't know if I could do it. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

This is very much true.. thank you, graceanne.

I love C to death, but it's true that unless I ask him to do something, he doesn't, generally.. so if I go back to work full time, that means be mommy, work forty hours a week, and still keep up with everything in the house.

I don't know that I could do that, honestly. I have very little free time right now, and I would have so much less free time if I was working again, and so much more stress, that I think it would be detrimental not only to me, but to my patience in being a mother and a wife.

 

[Aeroil]

.......Men, (as a rule - I know that some guys aren't like this) still, only have to work and be dads. They might do some housework and cooking, in the name of equality and all, but the woman is still doing the majority of it. ........ [/B]

hehehe, and most of those "some guys" are the male subs

 

[Netzach]

I'm a product of "womens' Lib' whatever that was. Personally, I don't feel like these people fucked up my life.

I can work, I can expect to have orgasms without being committed to the crazy hospital for it, I can be in a relationship with a woman without having to fear for our lives every day (kinda) I can have a baby, I can even undergo AI and have a baby WITH that woman, in most enlightened places. I can sue my employer if they are blatantly paying me less than Joe for the same job and I do not have to suck my boss off to get a raise.

I don't have this problem getting my SO to do half, nay, MORE than half of what needs to be done at home. I live with a man who doesn't passive aggressively fuck up his chores in fact, he's more anal about them than I am.

I don't know if feminism and the 70's are why such people exist. M's mom taught, but was definitely home and available most of the same hours as him and his sis. The woman majorly kicked ass, and I don't think anyone poo poohed her for being a teacher and a mom. I certainly have never looked down my nose at someone who elects to stay at home with her kids, I just think she's lucky if she can make it work. I don't vilify someone who can't make it work, unless they are leaving the kids with a nanny and running around getting facials and shopping all day -- this is the set I find completely below contempt. Upper class brood mares.

 

[Never]

I am of the opinion that strong women are actually less appreciated now than when they were primarily homemakers.

I am constantly surprised at anti-feminist rhetoric, especially by women. I don't see modern blacks insulting the achievements of civil rights leaders. You might disagree with many about the best way to reach equality or even if the sexes can ever truly be equal but does anyone truly believe the world would be better if women couldn't vote? If they were hired only for 'feminine' positions? If they couldn't own property? If wife beating and marital rape were legal?

 

[Netzach]

There is an amazing pressure to "do it all" I agree. And the culmination of your life, as a woman, is still rumored to be reproduction no matter who you are, no matter what kind of work you do. As I age, it might be harder for me to get back into the mainstream workforce, because there IS an assumption I have a ticking clock and I'll be leaving the company to go have babies. Just watch mainstream movies, the female character so often is the "high powered exec with a shallow and meaningless life until some little scamp melts her icy heart and teaches her that family is what's really important."

Um, barf.

 

[Never]

To be fair, there are a number of stories in which high powered men have shallow lives and are taught the meaning of life by a beautiful scamp. It's just that at the end of those movies the guy has the girl and still has the job.