Staying at home pride .vs. Out in the world greed

[graceanne]

Women's lib, originally, was a great thing. It has brought about a lot of wonderful things. And then it went to far when we were told that we had to work to be 'fulfilled'. If one more person asks if I'm gonna get a 'real job' once all my kids are in school I'll scream. What do they think I do? Sit at home and eat bon bon's all day? I work as hard as any one with a 'real job'. On the other hand, Netz is right, you've got the other people on the other side who say you aren't fulfilled if you don't have a child, which is also bull. That's what I'm talking about is that now days women are expected to have it all and do it all. Women's lib did not save us from having to do everything we did before hand, all it did is add another expectation. Now we have to be betty homemaker, and have a 'real job' to be fulfilled. Luckily enough for me, I could care less what society thinks of me.

 

[Aeroil]

I agree with you entirely graceanne, staying at home can be a damn hard job. Women's liberation should give them the choice, not guilt them into working if they don't want.

 

[Aeroil]

err, C&F can one of you del this please? accident

 

[Netzach]

Women's lib, originally, was a great thing. It has brought about a lot of wonderful things. And then it went to far when we were told that we had to work to be 'fulfilled'. If one more person asks if I'm gonna get a 'real job' once all my kids are in school I'll scream. What do they think I do? Sit at home and eat bon bon's all day? I work as hard as any one with a 'real job'. On the other hand, Netz is right, you've got the other people on the other side who say you aren't fulfilled if you don't have a child, which is also bull. That's what I'm talking about is that now days women are expected to have it all and do it all. Women's lib did not save us from having to do everything we did before hand, all it did is add another expectation. Now we have to be betty homemaker, and have a 'real job' to be fulfilled. Luckily enough for me, I could care less what society thinks of me.

I don't see women's lib as the perpetrator there, though. I think it's sexism that still makes all the work at home seen as "not real work" so that there's an assumption that you can do yet more work on top of it, which is really great for a capitalist society, making half your populace do this hard core double duty.

Feminism, at it's best, still was all about choice. It was feminists who came up with the radical if somewhat impractical notion that every mother ought to be paid a subsidy by the government for doing important work.

 

[Aeroil]

hehehe, this was all before my time so I'm kinda in the dark here, but oh well

 

[graceanne]

I don't see women's lib as the perpetrator there, though. I think it's sexism that still makes all the work at home seen as "not real work" so that there's an assumption that you can do yet more work on top of it, which is really great for a capitalist society, making half your populace do this hard core double duty.

Feminism, at it's best, still was all about choice. It was feminists who came up with the radical if somewhat impractical notion that every mother ought to be paid a subsidy by the government for doing important work.

To tell the truth, I guess it's not feminism I object to, it's a lot of the women who claim to be feminists. In the true sense of the word, they're not, they're just finatics of the other side of the coin than me. They claim they want equality for women, but they don't, they want us all to be like them. I, personally, could care less if someone works or stays home. As stated in my original post my sister literaly can not stay home, and we don't like her to. She needs to get out of the house regularily, and it has nothing to do with money. She could be the next mrs. Trump, and she'd still work.

 

[sunfox]

I am of the opinion that strong women are actually less appreciated now than when they were primarily homemakers.

I am constantly surprised at anti-feminist rhetoric, especially by women. I don't see modern blacks insulting the achievements of civil rights leaders. You might disagree with many about the best way to reach equality or even if the sexes can ever truly be equal but does anyone truly believe the world would be better if women couldn't vote? If they were hired only for 'feminine' positions? If they couldn't own property? If wife beating and marital rape were legal?

I don't see any anti-feminist rhetoric being preached here... I see several of us objecting to the modern ideal being pushed upon those of us who stay home.. or objecting to the notion of being seen as backwards because we don't work in addition to raising our children.

Just as it's easy to say that the world is better for blacks now when you're not one, and don't face racism every day in the new, sneaky, subtle ways that it occurs as well as the blatant, in-your-face-I-Hate-You-Darkies ways... it's easy to say that life is better for all women because some things have changed in this particular country.

Does the fact that I'm free make it easier to see people in the Sudan being massacred? No. Not really. That's a part of my heritage too, and it sickens and saddens me knowing that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

The same thing applies to the fact that while it may not be legal for my husband to beat me to death here, it's still not only legal but commonplace in other places. The only thing that makes me different is location.

So instead of bitching at stay-at-home mothers for being 'archaic'... wouldn't the feminists' time be better spent making life better in other countries where there is considerably less freedom for women?

(This marginally off topic rant brought to you by the amazement that I'm awake before eight AM. )

 

[Angie420]

I haven't read all the posts on this topic, but I find it very interesting.....

I am a stay at home mom, sub, with a 2yo and a 7yo. We don't live in the suburbs (our neighbors are up our asses all the time!). Yet we have our own luxuries. I do anything to please my Master. That includes working for one of our home based businesses. Masters ultimate goal is to be a millionaire. As his sub, I see it as my responsibility to assist Him in this goal. Housework, cooking, cleaning is all part of the dominance in my mind.

I guess I'm trying to say that you can be a stay at home sub and still be greedy....does that make sense?

Just read the post above this.....When it comes to strong women.....what is a "strong woman"? Does a "strong" woman dominate? Does a "strong" woman have to work outside the home to prove she's strong? I think it takes a stong woman to stand up for what she wants.....including staying home and/or submitting, if that's what she chooses to do. I consider myself a very strong woman, and submitting for me was hard, but it was what I needed and wanted.

I may be confused about what is being said, since I didn't read it all, but it seems to me, sometimes, that the "strong women" are the ones getting upset at submissive women for being submissive. So, the sub women need to stand up and be strong in response to the strong women. Just seems odd to me. I rarely hear men complaining that women aren't out making the money and being "strong".......

I guess I don't understand the real meaning of "strong woman"....just like I don't understand the real meaning of "normal". To each their own. That's what women's lib is about to me. Allowing us to make the choices we want to make.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Anyway the point of my long story is this; if i want to go back out into the working world now...my skills are 8 yrs old and i need to first be retrained. If i go back into the working world now; more income in this house means more taxes, it also means that when my kids are sick i need to not work, it also means I'm not there when they get home and i have to pay someone to be there. I'm now having to give up more then im getting back both financially and emotionally by going back to work. So basically what I'm saying is that if you make a choice to be home, do it with care and do it knowing that the relationship may one day end...and make sure you are prepared for the "after" if that should happen.

I can so relate KC. It is where I was after the end of my vanilla marriage. I had plenty of people tell me how I should go out to work, but resented it when I asked them who would care for my children while I was expected at work and they were sick...which they often were. Apparently, the most common response I got was it was my problem....duh, like I didn't already know that ebfore they came waltzing in with their simplistic, not thought out solutions to living without much money.

I waited until both childrenm were at an age where though not near independent level, but at least a bit more easily managed when sickness hit, and went back to get a degree and a career. Now, though I was pushed to the extremes of energy and time we still managed to have picnics at the beach, the occasional day at the movies etc., but guess what?....those same people who criticised me for staying home on welfare to care for my children when they were young were now the same ones who criticised me for not being at home baking cookies, instead pursuing an education and a way out of the poverty cycle!! Can't please some people.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

People are stupid.

I was unfortunately turned to face the montel williams show while in a wheelchair and waiting for my upper GI tract Xrays, in a hospital waiting room, otherwise I never would have seen this gem.

That's what it takes to get me to watch TV, folks.

He had on single mothers with kids who have to self-supervise. The audience was very critical of them. He actually did a pretty good job of exposing their hypocritical mainstream dumbass american attitudes, but I don't think any lessons were learned.

"So what should she do instead" he kept asking the criticizing people, who had no good answers.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well said. The Women's Liberation Society has a long history of lieing and being caught making things look and sound worse then they are to gain votes and support. With that being said, the other side of the coin -wanting to stay home, loving it and feeling fullfilled and it serving one of the MOST important services for generations to come. We mentioned teachers not getting paid enough... isn't nearly emphasized enough (which I could go on forever about.)

SOrry Blue Sugar, but as a feminist and a woman I have to object to that claim. You are young so perhaps you don't fully appreciate the history and the fact you are allowed to work, you can get an education if you want, you can vote, you can be a politician or just about anything you want, you can choose birth control, you can get some sort of protection (even if still inadequate) if your partner abuses you, you are counted as having just as much right to your opinion as a man.......those who fought to give you those rights you take for granted did not lie to win them, and many were thrown into prison for daring to speak out against the oppression of women. Not sure where you read it was based on a lot of lies or got the idea women made things appear worse to win the right to be given equal rights.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am of the opinion that strong women are actually less appreciated now than when they were primarily homemakers.

I am constantly surprised at anti-feminist rhetoric, especially by women. I don't see modern blacks insulting the achievements of civil rights leaders. You might disagree with many about the best way to reach equality or even if the sexes can ever truly be equal but does anyone truly believe the world would be better if women couldn't vote? If they were hired only for 'feminine' positions? If they couldn't own property? If wife beating and marital rape were legal?

Very true. I think a lot of the backlash comes from mis-information and like in so many cases, an attitude to take all those rights women now have while putting down the very movement and people who made it possible. It is so easy to forget history, even recent history such as in feminism where I have lived in times where women were made legally unemployable the minute they married, were not allowed to work if pregnant, were not allowed birth control, were not allowed to own property without the permission of a male, and even when I went through my first divorce,( less than 20 years ago ) having to supply written permission from my former husband before I could take his name off the telephone and electricity accounts and permission from him if I wanted to move to another town, while he was free to do whatever he wanted. Now tell me that women had it good and didn't have any need to fight for equal rights to not force women into the work force, but to allow them the freedom to make the choice which suited them best. And unfortunately, however much women might like to poo poo feminists and feminism, they are still trying to improve things for you and every woman so that when you are raped you are not expected to prove why you should be heard and why you did not ask for it, to provide safety for you when you are abused, to provide equal pay for equal work which in many professions is still not equal, and a multitude of other rights women trake for granted because they did not live in a time when they were ever denied them so presume they were easliy won or 'just there'.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

People are stupid.

I was unfortunately turned to face the montel williams show while in a wheelchair and waiting for my upper GI tract Xrays, in a hospital waiting room, otherwise I never would have seen this gem.

That's what it takes to get me to watch TV, folks.

He had on single mothers with kids who have to self-supervise. The audience was very critical of them. He actually did a pretty good job of exposing their hypocritical mainstream dumbass american attitudes, but I don't think any lessons were learned.

"So what should she do instead" he kept asking the criticizing people, who had no good answers.

LOL, so easy to criticise, so much more difficult to assist in a viable and caring solution.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

It was actually very interesting after F came back from his business trip to Saudi Arabia. Now while women of the west never had their rights denied quite to the same degree, there was not a lot of difference in many areas. Apart from women barely appearing in public, and if they do having to be covered except for their eyes, they are reliant on men for everything. They are not allowed to go to a restaurant alone, and many shops will refuse them service unless a man is there to speak for them, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to travel without a males permission or guardianship, not allowed to have a say in the way anything is done, no dancing, no speaking to any men outside the family, and the big news item while he was there was they were for the first time going to allow women to work in particular jobs on a limited basis and under heavy supervision because the general thought is women are not to be trusted nor are they considered smart enough to knwo what is good for them or anyone else!!

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

So instead of bitching at stay-at-home mothers for being 'archaic'... wouldn't the feminists' time be better spent making life better in other countries where there is considerably less freedom for women?

(This marginally off topic rant brought to you by the amazement that I'm awake before eight AM. )

There are actually a lot of feminists doing that. I personally worked with women, some who had spent several years working for women's rights in places such as South Africa, Indonesia, and India, (often risking their own lives in the process) and still were involved and regularly visiting those countries doing work legal, medical and otherwise to help the women, and I also worked alongside women who spend every vacation in such countries working alongside women and children there fighting for their freedom, donate a hefty portion of their salary to such causes in these countries, and attend regular meetings in countries such as China, South Africa and India to formulate plans and goals on how best to assist women living there.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

It was actually very interesting after F came back from his business trip to Saudi Arabia. Now while women of the west never had their rights denied quite to the same degree, there was not a lot of difference in many areas. Apart from women barely appearing in public, and if they do having to be covered except for their eyes, they are reliant on men for everything. They are not allowed to go to a restaurant alone, and many shops will refuse them service unless a man is there to speak for them, they are not allowed to drive, not allowed to travel without a males permission or guardianship, not allowed to have a say in the way anything is done, no dancing, no speaking to any men outside the family, and the big news item while he was there was they were for the first time going to allow women to work in particular jobs on a limited basis and under heavy supervision because the general thought is women are not to be trusted nor are they considered smart enough to knwo what is good for them or anyone else!!

Catalina

Actually- if you look back to American history prior to the Suffragest's movement you'd see a similarity to this attitude. In the mid 19th century women were subjected to hysterectomies for treatment of "nymphomania"- often diagnosed based on her interest in dancing with multiple men at balls/parties/etc, or her interest in a "man's world" (business/politics/etc).

In fact a lot of arguments against the women's right to vote was based on the assumed hormonal state which woudl *of course* make her incapable of thinking clearly enough to choose the leader of the free world. *puke. gag. grumble*

We've come a long way, baby... and (IMO) yet have so far to go...

 

[arctic-stranger]

Major cut...

In fact a lot of arguments against the women's right to vote was based on the assumed hormonal state which woudl *of course* make her incapable of thinking clearly enough to choose the leader of the free world. *puke. gag. grumble*

We've come a long way, baby... and (IMO) yet have so far to go...

i dont mean to get all political here, but given the last election, maybe the testosterone factor needs to be eliminated from elections!

 

[CutieMouse]

i dont mean to get all political here, but given the last election, maybe the testosterone factor needs to be eliminated from elections!

*giggle* Good point.

 

[redelicious]

I don't see women's lib as the perpetrator there, though. I think it's sexism that still makes all the work at home seen as "not real work" so that there's an assumption that you can do yet more work on top of it, which is really great for a capitalist society, making half your populace do this hard core double duty.

Feminism, at it's best, still was all about choice. It was feminists who came up with the radical if somewhat impractical notion that every mother ought to be paid a subsidy by the government for doing important work.

The thing is, I always thought I was a feminist until I made the choice to stay home. I was made to feel like a traitor to my sex in some circles.

Then again, I've been in a group of moms who were seriously bad-mouthing another for choosing to have her 2nd baby via c-section (her first was also a c-section). One of the mothers actually said that the woman in question shouldn't be allowed to have children.

Really makes me question how we as women treat each other.

 

[CutieMouse]

IMO women can be realy cruel to each other in ways men can't even begin to fathom. Which is probably why I'm more likely to have men as my closest friends than women...

 

[sunfox]

There are actually a lot of feminists doing that. I personally worked with women, some who had spent several years working for women's rights in places such as South Africa, Indonesia, and India, (often risking their own lives in the process) and still were involved and regularly visiting those countries doing work legal, medical and otherwise to help the women, and I also worked alongside women who spend every vacation in such countries working alongside women and children there fighting for their freedom, donate a hefty portion of their salary to such causes in these countries, and attend regular meetings in countries such as China, South Africa and India to formulate plans and goals on how best to assist women living there.

Catalina

I don't disagree that it's true that -some- do that. But the ones here, living a comfortable life, don't really have any room to preach at me for staying home with my child to raise her.

If they want to really effect change, they need to put their rhetoric where the truly troubled areas are, not to put too fine a point upon it, like the examples you gave.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't disagree that it's true that -some- do that. But the ones here, living a comfortable life, don't really have any room to preach at me for staying home with my child to raise her.

If they want to really effect change, they need to put their rhetoric where the truly troubled areas are, not to put too fine a point upon it, like the examples you gave.

LOL, well see when I get someone telling me they are a feminist, and then sprouting such critical words of 'wisdom' about the choices others make, I can't resist introducing into the conversation somewhere how 2 of the strongest principles of feminism are being non-judgemental, and allowing others to make the choice which best suits them, not the one which others want to impose on them in a fashion which mimics the patriarchial oppressions of days gone by. Then if they want to debate finer points and history, I am only too willing to oblige.

Catalina

 

[BlueSugar]

SOrry Blue Sugar, but as a feminist and a woman I have to object to that claim. You are young so perhaps you don't fully appreciate the history and the fact you are allowed to work, you can get an education if you want, you can vote, you can be a politician or just about anything you want, you can choose birth control, you can get some sort of protection (even if still inadequate) if your partner abuses you, you are counted as having just as much right to your opinion as a man.......those who fought to give you those rights you take for granted did not lie to win them, and many were thrown into prison for daring to speak out against the oppression of women. Not sure where you read it was based on a lot of lies or got the idea women made things appear worse to win the right to be given equal rights.

Catalina

Wasn't objecting to those have faught life and limb for equal rights in the states or even those who go over seas and stop and help the women there. I'm not talking about those who are genuinely interested in making life better for women.
Just those who are a bit messed up and became a little over zealous with their cause and told a series of half truths to win a battle - in which there wasn't really a battle at all.

I may be younger, but I've done alot of womens studies, and I was a few steps away from a BA in psychology but now I'm just steps away from having a BA in sociology. I make it my job to know about society and its ways and weaknesses. I haven't witnessed first hand all the changes bc I am young, but there still are places in the world going through changes.

And as for other cultures and their customs. Some like it that way, it is their culture. What we think is grotesque and harsh - other cultures find as a norm. Brutality needs to go I admit, female circumcision for example needs to be wiped off the face of the earth - but in many cases its the mothers putting their daughters through it - not the men of society. There are cultures that plump up their women for marriage while western culture needs everyone to be blonde, botoxed and thin.
There is a point to where "to each their own" needs to be respected but there are just some customs that need to stop being embraced.

Cutiemouse- I was talking to a friend of mine last night, and he is having some women troubles and he said (jokingly) "the next women that says men are pigs, I'm going to punch them," and then we touched on why I keep male friends only and talk to my male friends way longer then I could ever talk to any of my (few) female friends. We're catty bitches- the whole lot of us

Netzach- "people are stupid." Enough said. Sometimes I get morbidly curious to sit and watch a few of those shows, just to see what all these women are gabbing about in their older age... Oprah, Montel, Barbra Walters and crew - and I say they're just as bad as Howard Stern is. I kept watching just to see what dumb thing they would say next. They have their points, but most of it is just showing American's that all they do is point fingers and drool.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, well call me stupid, but I tend to think from what I see and hear of Oprah, she does a lot for women worldwide, and isn't shy of not only putting her money where her mouth is, but also isn't backward in putting in some physical one on one help as well. there are actually quite a few prominent women in the US entertainment industry who have strong ties to social causes, particularly women and children, and go beyond just endorsing organisations by putting real effort behind their words, and taking time out of their own lives to do so. Names that come to mind are Susan Sarandon, Angelina Jolie, Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz, Goldie Hawn.

And Blue Sugar, I am happy you are enjoying your sociology, it was a pet subject of mine and still is, but feminism is where I made my mark personally and professionally. ROFL, my lecturer was an internationally well known activist and feminist who said I managed to change her mind on a couple of areas she previously thought would never change for her. Like I had a choice!!!.....she challenged me with losing my top of the year place in the subject because of the topic and argument I chose....couldn't let that happen, so had to make sure I presented the case well.

Catalina

 

[BlueSugar]

LOL, well call me stupid, but I tend to think from what I see and hear of Oprah, she does a lot for women worldwide, and isn't shy of not only putting her money where her mouth is, but also isn't backward in putting in some physical one on one help as well. there are actually quite a few prominent women in the US entertainment industry who have strong ties to social causes, particularly women and children, and go beyond just endorsing organisations by putting real effort behind their words, and taking time out of their own lives to do so. Names that come to mind are Susan Sarandon, Angelina Jolie, Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz, Goldie Hawn.

And Blue Sugar, I am happy you are enjoying your sociology, it was a pet subject of mine and still is, but feminism is where I made my mark personally and professionally. ROFL, my lecturer was an internationally well known activist and feminist who said I managed to change her mind on a couple of areas she previously thought would never change for her. Like I had a choice!!!.....she challenged me with losing my top of the year place in the subject because of the topic and argument I chose....couldn't let that happen, so had to make sure I presented the case well.

Catalina

I guess everytime I catch Oprah its some easy make over deal - she is one of the better ones, and shes lasted the test of time ... but ya know the ones that start up and faze out as quickly as they arose. "They have their points, but most of it is just showing American's that all they do is point fingers and drool." And [people] don't actually help out even though they watch Oprah and friends helping so many.

I just wish there were more that give their money and time to open their eyes to the world... so much money they're capping their teeth in gold instead of really putting their money to good use. I've been in more outreach programs and worthy protests then I could count - even at a younger age I met high government officials and recieved awards that they've hand signed and made special get togethers in D.C for the 100 of us that were worthy at the time.

Psychology picked me I say, but I grew bored. And so I searched and didn't have to go far to find Sociology. I'm young and learning and in the making but I have a better hold then alot of others do and I'm glad. I too have spoken with guest speakers and teachers.. and have added books and material to their lives Its rewarding for me, and even better for them.