Sub in training could use some help

[dolf]

you might really hate that metal rod but the fastest way to learn is by pain association...basic survival mechanism. i'm not sure exactly what you will learn from being whacked without really knowing why, but you'll learn it fast.
xx

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Kajira Callista]

I'm honestly starting to wonder if her PYL doesn't have some reading to do also... but I whispering it because I could be wrong.

i dont think you are wrong at all. and i have a big mouth so i will say it... The PYL looks like they need to do some reading/learning also

 

[TySlut26]

ShadowsDream- "Because I said so" isn't the only answer I get. I do get it quite a bit though, maybe like 25% of the time. He read the thread not too long ago and called me but I'm just so exhausted right now from the lack of sleep and pre-Thanksgiving break work (German quiz, German test, English paper, Spanish paper, Art History test, and a horrid Dostoevsky novel to name a few...) and he's got his own share of crap unrelated to me to deal with so we're gonna talk about it later on tonight.

I should really be a good student and swear off this computer until my classes are over but shit if I've ever been a good student so I'll be back pretty soon.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina- It's funny you mention the whole toilet thing. He sort of tested me this morning. He said that was what he was gonna do with me, right then. Inside my head, I was completely freaking out. I did NOT want to do that at all. I cried, begged, whimpered, anything you could think of that might make him reconsider, I did, but he was relentless. So I finally complied, he put it in my mouth, smiled, and took it out. He would've never really done it and as much as I was shaking just from the thought, a very large part of me knew he wouldn't make me do that. So I don't really have limits, but I'm allowed to strongly insist that he doesn't do something. I know I'm very new to this but in my opinion he has as much of a duty to me as I do to him, at least on a very inner level. I would never dream about doing anything traumatic to him so therefore I have no reason to believe that he'd ever do anything traumatic to me.

Hmmm, well when I mentioned using you as a toilet I wasn't actually thinking of the peeing in your mouth thing so much as there are many here who still have limits but do that willingly. There are things far worse and more difficult to contemplate.

As to not having limits it sounds that you have what I referred to as the 'no limits, but' variety which is fine but is not no limits. The strongly insisting he not do something is not something which would go over well here.....I can tell him if there is a reason why I think it might be unwise at the time he is proposing, but I need to make sure I have a good reason for wasting his time before I go so far as to have that discussion, and definately not insist he do or not do anything.

I agree there is a duty of care between a Dominant and submissive, but that being said, not everything he is going to ask of you that you might not want to do is actually harmful beyond forcing your submission. Even within that ideology of caring, it is the Dopminant who makes the final decision in a no limits arrangement and that may mean they choose to go ahead even though it is going to be harmful or risky. The key thing to remember is it is not an equal relationship where he does to you only what you would do to him...he dominates, you submit.

From what you say it sounds as if you are struggling with submission itself, trying to manipulate (or topping from the bottom) by using tears or anything you can think of as you say, to change his mind on what he wants you to do. That is what is so tricky about submission and challenging......to submit does not mean to just do those things which you find acceptable or fun or easy, it means submitting and doing those things which the Dominant desires and demands of you.

Another thing which makes it so difficult is most of the terms and situations you might come across and/or struggle with are subjective....they mean different things to different people. What you might see as traumatic, another might not think anything of. That is why communicating with each other as EKVITKAR suggested is so important. You need to know how each of you understand and process the things you are practicing and contemplating......both could be totally different interpretations which complicates things and can lead to huge misunderstandings. It is a challenging journey well worth taking IMO but you need to be aware so you can protect yourself, can be sure of being in a place which is good for you, and that you find helps you grow as botha person and submissive.

Catalina

 

[Kajira Callista]

you might really hate that metal rod but the fastest way to learn is by pain association...basic survival mechanism. i'm not sure exactly what you will learn from being whacked without really knowing why, but you'll learn it fast.
xx

you learn nothing but resentment and behavior that is exactly what she described hers as. ppl are not animals without intelligence, we are made to use our brains. part of being able to actually think is wanting to know why. I see being trained as learning the rules, and not as a time for childish manipulation. if she want or needs to know why...then she should be told. Understanding is a big part of submission, if she doesnt understand he will never have her in the way he says he wants her.

 

[dolf]

you learn nothing but resentment and behavior that is exactly what she described hers as. ppl are not animals without intelligence, we are made to use our brains. part of being able to actually think is wanting to know why. I see being trained as learning the rules, and not as a time for childish manipulation. if she want or needs to know why...then she should be told. Understanding is a big part of submission, if she doesnt understand he will never have her in the way he says he wants her.

yup, that'd be exactly what i was implying
xx

 

[redelicious]

Redilicious- Sorry, I completely missed your post. I dunno, I also kinda think it's too soon to have no limits but the thing is... I *kinda* have limits. For example, I reeeeaaaally don't wanna have sex with any other men because my Dom's the only one I've ever slept with and as long as we're together (which I hope is a very long time) I want to keep it that way. He knows how I feel about that issue and he says that if he wanted me to have sex with another man I would, and he's right. If he insisted, I'd put up a helluva fight but eventually comply. The thing is though, I highly doubt he'll ever make me do that. Maybe a blow job under special circumstances, but not sex. See, we made a deal. I belong to him, completely. The only right I have is to leave. I agreed to this under the condition that he take care of me. And he accepted. I've told him of all the types of situations that would absolutely break my heart so if he made me do any of them, that wouldn't be taking care of me. He'd be breaking his promise to me and I honestly trust that he won't do that.

IMHO, for what it's worth, if you think it's too soon to not have limits, or even to "kinda" have limits then it probably is.

Every sub here has been new at one time. It's a very exciting phase. I know you are eager to please him and throw yourself wholeheartedly into submission. BTDT. In your exuberance please don't abandon your common sense. Again, I'm not sure how you can have the trust you speak of in just 3 weeks. I don't mean to be blunt but that's how I see it.

But as I write this I realize that your relationship feels *right* to you at this stage in your life, and that there are things you just have to experience for yourself. I think it's almost a D/s rite of passage.

 

[dolf]

ok, just out of curiosity....
how old is your PLY?

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[dolf]

Hehe- everyones asking the stuff I feel would be too rude to ask.

lol, you know me darling...i'm very rude!

 

[TySlut26]

He's 20, so not much older than me but believe it or not he has a loooot of experience with D/s... maybe too much, but it's not my place to tell people his past. I will say though that thanks to dolf, I've read a list of pretty much every aspect of BDSM and found out that yes, I have limits. The main ones are anything having to do with getting shat on, sexual activities with children, anything that would cause permanent damage (having my face sliced until it left permanent scars was an example given by Catalina), and becoming a prostitute. In those cases, I would get out of the relationship if he insisted that I do them but the thing is, that's about as likely as being able to teach a bull how to tap dance. It's just not gonna happen, so I'm not really about to lose sleep over it.

I've been in an overly controlling relationship before for about a year (nothing having to do with SM, he was just an asshole trying to compensate for his incredibly miniscule genitalia) so even though I'm young, I'll be able to tell if the control's gone too far this time and I'll be able to get out without a problem. But I do trust him, which is saying a lot cuz I don't trust ANYONE, and I wish people would stop bashing him here because he really has helped me get over a lot of crap because of the way he's training me. Like my manipulation (oh and I forget who said this but someone said I use tears to manipulate him and I just wanna clarify that if I ever cry it's absolutely genuine... to tell you the truth I don't even know how to fake-cry). Just a few short weeks ago, I would be so manipulative that I was mentally exhausting myself. I'd never in a million years try to manipulate him again (though I'm still a smart-ass and have some provoking tendencies that need to be addressed). Hell, I can't even bring myself to lie to him anymore (I'd feel absolutely HORRIBLE if I did and would wind up confessing about eight minutes after the lie). And I love it. It's a boulder off my chest.

And even though he's changing a few parts of me for the better, he'll never stop me from being my own person. He promised me he wouldn't. With my last boyfriend for example, HA. LORD FORBID I disagreed with him about anything from capital punishment to the best Ben & Jerry's ice cream flavor. If anyone thinks that I was allowed to go to parties or choose my own friends or talk to my own fucking SISTER while I was dating this schmuck, they're wrong. It was all for the best though. It's kind of like chicken pox. It happens once, it SUCKS, but afterwards you're immuned for life. If my boyfriend ever starts to make me feel the way that other pile of shit did, I'll know. So please just understand that I'm not blindly getting myself into a bad situation. Also, he should be coming over soon and I'm *pretty sure* that after we have a talk he'll start to give me reasoning and explain things better. I'll keep you all updated.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Sir_Winston54]

This is going to be long. Those familiar with my posts can just sigh and skip on to the next entry in the thread.

TySlut,

Please allow me to add what weight, if any, I can to the following concepts and suggestions:

Desdemona: "Pick one role and work on getting it right."

This - the BDSM culture - is not like being a member of a traveling minstrel show where you learn a number of different parts and may play any (or several or all) of them on a given evening. This is a way of life. Yes, many people in our culture are switches - depending on circumstance, they may be PYL one evening and pyl the next. In most cases, however, they have been in the culture for an extended period of time learning and living in one role, and then learning and living the other. To try to learn both submission and dominance - or even bottoming and topping - simultaneously would be, in my considered opinion, so difficult as to be near to impossible.

ADR: "Do you really think that the training is ever over, let alone as 'quickly as possible?'"

CutieMouse: "...one of a sub's purposes is to always learn. I'd imagine if you learn to not mouth off you'll find another area you need to learn control/patience/etc in. Thus the "training" is neverending IMO."

Many of the posters here have been in the culture for years, even decades. I can't think of one - not one! - of the experienced (3 years or more) people I've interacted with here, or in my 30+ years of r/l BDSM, who think they have learned it all, whether pyl or PYL. All of them seek with every relationship, every encounter, to learn more, and to share what they have learned with others.

Pandoravampire: "Having found someone who i really wish to submit to, im not going to fuck that up with my topping."

Catalina: "From what you say it sounds as if you are struggling with submission itself, trying to manipulate (or topping from the bottom) by using tears or anything you can think of as you say, to change his mind on what he wants you to do. That is what is so tricky about submission and challenging......to submit does not mean to just do those things which you find acceptable or fun or easy, it means submitting and doing those things which the Dominant desires and demands of you."

Pandoravampire makes an excellent point: If you really want to submit, don't top. That specifically and especially includes the "topping from the bottom" that Catalina mentions... that's not a good thing. If you actually do wish to submit, submit! Don't fight both his will and your own desires. All that will do is frustrate both of you beyond endurance and destroy your chances of success.

TySlut: "I'm technically not allowed to question him either. Sometimes I have no idea why I'm being punished so that makes it kind of hard to improve."

CutieMouse: "How do you grow as a person through your submission when you don't have the knowledge inherent to the place you have put yourself in, yet you are not allowed to question and learn? I'm lost on that one."

No, it doesn't make it hard to improve. It makes it impossible. I refer you to Kajira Callista's post on that subject. I can't say it any better.

TySlut: "...the rule is basically that the only power I have is to end the relationship. I'm not allowed to have any limits or privacy or anything like that. He showed me that today when he ordered me to give him my journal. That's without a doubt the most personal and off-limits thing that I own. But in our relationship, an order's an order."

Redelicious: "You are three weeks into your training and already you have no limits? Are you comfortable with that? Because I'd get the hell out.

"And the not questioning thing - sounds counter-productive to me. Maybe there's a reason he doesn't want you to question him?

"I'm not saying that not having limits or being able to question him aren't part of some D/s relationships, but in your case (being new) I'm suspicious. My experience is limited, but I have a hard time believing that the TRUST required for that sort of power-exchange can be developed in 3 weeks. Maybe that's the source of your control issues. Think your gut might be telling you something?"

Desdemona: "it's awfully early to not have limits. I actually have a couple more limits now than I did when I started. That's because some things sound better in theory than they are when you put them into real life practice. And frankly, you just can't try it all at once... at least I can't. Some things grow on you as you try them, other things become almost repulsive quite quickly. You never know until you've spent some time on trying.

Catalina: "As to 'no limits'. I would be careful as to going there at this stage. It is not something you can take lightly unless it is 'no limits, but I won't do x, y, z'...which I find is usually the case. No limits means no limits...so in essence you are not able to say no if the Dominant says they have decided to cut you all over including your face leaving permanent scars, they are going to send you out to work as a sex worker, they will lock you in a cage and never let you out again, they expect you to act as their toilet etc, etc.... the list is endless and unless you know someone extremely well first (and that takes time and a variety of situations), you are running a huge risk in entering a no limits agreement, not to mention setting yourself up for failure. I am in such a relationship of my own chosing and no, it is not easy and I do not always like his choices, nor do I always succeed, but I also didn't commit to it without first knowing him through and through and building trust over a period of time, and without him cautioning me repeatedly before accepting my no limits submission.....the fact he is also my husband helped, but does not mean he will choose things I will like or even find possible, or things which are in the realm of what most would want or find acceptable....but I have to find a way of adjusting and making them possible regardless because that is what it means."

IMNSHO, for you at this stage of your learning to live in the BDSM culture to have no limits is ... I don't have a word for it. Unthinkable? That's close. Please read and re-read the quotes above, and consider them carefully. Establishing a no-limits relationship at this point in your life: 18 years old and until recently (apparently) relatively inexperienced sexually? Seems to me to be a recipe for disaster. (See Ekvitkar's comment re disasters - and people's tendency not to learn from them until they've been repeated over and over.)

As far as the thoughts of those who indicated that it might be a good idea for your PYL to also do some additional reading and study, I'll only say that from your description of your relationship, that seems like it might be a very good idea.

I'm tired of hitting the damn "Quote" button with all the attendant copying and pasting. Let me finally refer you to the comments of CutieMouse, pandoravampire, Netzach, Ekvitkar, Shadowsdream, LadyGuinevere, Kajira Callista, (and probably others), all of whom either directly or indirectly indicated that you and your PYL need to do a great deal of communicating - much more than you apparently have up to this point. In living this life, we must communicate with our partner(s), else we risk serious (unwanted) bodily injury or even death. Beside those possible results of a lack of communication, even the failure of the relationship is nothing. I cannot say it often enough, or loudly enough: Communicate. Communicate. Communicate, damnit!

Edited to remove a word I didn't realize was in there, made no sense, and made no difference to the sentence in which it was inadvertantly included.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[TySlut26]

We are communicating damn it.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

["angel" eve]

you're not going to like what i'm saying. and any personal attacks that come of my comment will be accepted as personal opinions.

tyslut26, what you are describing, if it is accurate, sounds very similar to a manipulative and abusive relationship. It isn't uncommon for people who have been abused or unloved to look for and possibly find solice in bdsm practices, but it means you need to be especially careful you aren't letting yourself fall into a continued cycle of hurt.

I'm young in this myself, but I caution you to be very careful who you give control to. Most 20 year olds cannot handle this kind of power excahange responsibly. I know this because of my own mistakes - some more serious than others. Every person is different in the way they learn and mature, but I think there's a reason you don't see people in their early 20's on this board too often. We simply haven't lived life long enough.

Lastly, while I understand that sex and BDSM can easily become completely entwined almost immediately - It would have been helpful to me to have had more vanilla sexual experience, before becoming involved in BDSM and making it a large if not all encompasing part of my sex life.

Take what you will, this is just how I feel about it based on my own personal experiences.

 

[TySlut26]

Cutie- I'm not trying to get an attitude. It's just a little frustrating when people keep telling me that me and my boyfriend have to communicate when that's practically the only thing we do. I mean... we're college students, it's not like we can afford to DO anything, except maybe get buzzed off a case of Nat Light. So we talk. We hang out in my room and talk about everything from what our expectations from each other are to how in the hell do they actually FIND PEOPLE to go on Jerry Springer (if anyone has the answer to that... we'd like to know). So pleeeaaaase, stop saying we don't communicate. We really really do.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Cutie- I'm not trying to get an attitude. It's just a little frustrating when people keep telling me that me and my boyfriend have to communicate when that's practically the only thing we do. I mean... we're college students, it's not like we can afford to DO anything, except maybe get buzzed off a case of Nat Light. So we talk. We hang out in my room and talk about everything from what our expectations from each other are to how in the hell do they actually FIND PEOPLE to go on Jerry Springer (if anyone has the answer to that... we'd like to know). So pleeeaaaase, stop saying we don't communicate. We really really do.

*because i say so* is not communication. its kinda funny how so many ppl here have gone out of their way to take the time to reply to this thread...and all said pretty much the same thing but you didnt hear a word of it. I believe that is called immaturity and im done...i venture to guess anyone else whos input has been shot down by you is done too so have fun and play safe.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[A Desert Rose]

*banging my head against the wall*

That is the last sign that it's time to quit, dolly.

 

[Guest]

Cutie- I'm not trying to get an attitude. It's just a little frustrating when people keep telling me that me and my boyfriend have to communicate when that's practically the only thing we do. I mean... we're college students, it's not like we can afford to DO anything, except maybe get buzzed off a case of Nat Light. So we talk. We hang out in my room and talk about everything from what our expectations from each other are to how in the hell do they actually FIND PEOPLE to go on Jerry Springer (if anyone has the answer to that... we'd like to know). So pleeeaaaase, stop saying we don't communicate. We really really do.

*sigh* Listen...before anyone gets any more bent out of shape over this.

I will grant that you and your PYL are in fact communicating...Ok?

Where we seem to have a misalignment..is in the terms.

I would hazard to say..that when you are speaking about communication...and the people of this board speak about communication...
There is a certain difference of definition.

keep in mind that the folks who are responding to you... A lot of them live this..
Every day.
I do something relating to BDSM every day..Have for a long time...And no, that's not online either..You could prob get a rather impressive show of hands from the others if you wanted...

We have all seen (between us) just about any manifestation of the lifestyle you'de care to mention.

All that BS having been spouted.....

Hmmm I suppose that what I was trying to say earlier could be best quantified this way...

There is communication..and there is communication with purpose.
Then there is agreement.
Agreement is where the parties involved, theoreticly, know the terms, and agree to abide by them..
This sort of requires that the terms actually be discussed at some point.
And yah know..That is sort of a hinge pin of this stuff.
That whole consensual thing.
*sigh* I'm going to be disgustingly honest, For which I may be castigated by others.
I read your posts with great interest..I am always interested in folks starting new in the lifestyle.
(I kind of get into that whole comparative experience thing- and some day hope to write a book.)
But what I read there sort of worries me.
What I see is a pyl diving in head first into an undefined scene.
Which has neither defined limits..nor much of anything else to preserve her..
And just to be honest, from your own descriptions... I see a PYL that is infatuated with the surface manefestations of the lifestyle..But has no idea of the substance that is supposed to underly them.
And frankly I am not entirely sure I would let him train anything..Especially not something as precious and fragile as a new sub.
*shrug*
There you have it..My unadulterated and pain in the ass opinion.
Free.
And worth every penny of it.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[TySlut26]

The thing is, I am hearing it. I'm hearing every word of it, I really am and if you don't think so then I'm sorry but I'm under absolutely no obligation to justify myself to anyone. And please, I know "because I said so" is a crappy answer. In fact, I believe I was the first one to say it on this thread. But we did talk today and he told me he sees my point, and he'll be more explanatory in the future. And maybe everyone does think I'm getting into this too fast but right now I'm very very happy with the way things are between us and so is he and unless that changes, niether will our relationship. I'm sorry but that's the best I can do.