Sub in training could use some help

[dolf]

ty hon for taking a little of my advice

i want to say though...you said your PLY has a LOT of experience with D/s? if this is true then i am utterly horrified that he would ask someone as inexperienced and (by your own admission) abused to enter into this without giving you that checklist himself.
to expect a girl, just out of an abusive relationship, to leap in so recklessly is utterly irresponsible and IMHO dangerous!

i'll take your word for it that you do communicate...but that doesn't change the fact that this man has broken almost every "rule" there is when starting a D/s relationship.

if he was truly worthy of your submission, truly capable of being responsible for your welfare, then he would err on the side of caution...
"either do as i say or get out" is not how this game is played

xx

 

[Guest]

You are absolutely right...
You are under no obligation to justify yourself or your actions to anyone else..
But on the other hand...You asked.. Can't help the fact that you don't like the answers you got.
*shrug*
But, this isn't politics. And the group that you happened to ask, is prone to a certain disgusting honesty.
{*grin* For an online community, this can be something of a refreshing change.}
I am not quite sure how many cumulative years of experience ( both good and bad) you accessed with your question. The people who both read your posts, and took the time to consider what you said and respond. {Though I will admit to a certain curiosity.}

In the end, it's pretty much up to you.
But then it always was.

Remember..
Good judgement comes from experience...But experience...
Well....
Experience comes from bad judgement.

 

[pandoravampire]

oh for fucks sake!

Next!

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think what "angel" eve had to say was valueable and very honest. I have worked with abused women as a therapist for many years and one of the most common things that come up over and over is the propensity to do everything in their power to avoid another abuser, but the high incidence of those who find themselves back in the same place. The problem lies in that though they choose another partner who seems everything the last was not, and yes many are seduced by the 'all caring, let me show you how well I can care for you' man, they find their new partner is just an abuser in a different disguise....there are so many facades out there it is difficult to tell many of them immediately, especially if recovering from one abusive relationship and seeking the comfort of love. Perhaps you are one of the lucky ones, but given your inexperience I am concerned.

As to the communication thing...it is not something which happens in one afternoon of talking and then it is over. Communication takes place throughout the length of the relationship and beyond....for us it is a daily thing, sometimes small, sometimes large, but it is there and needs to remain there to incorporate every step you take in your journey, guage the effects on both, discuss the thoughts and feelings of you boith on a day to day basis......believe me, they can change. Some of the things you feel now you would never want, can become some of the things you might want the most in the future. That is one reason why you can never be sure he won't ask some of those things of you that at this point you are sure he never would. With some Dominants, the temptation to face their own limits as well as push yours beyond what you believe are possible becomes an intoxicating aphrodesiac and challenge.

I think everyone who has posted has had your best interests at heart and seek to help you as best they can. The concern is clear. Take it as a compliment as some others have not inspired such patience and genuine caring as you seem to have attracted....perhaps you have a guardian angel. As another thought on how you can both grow and learn together, perhaps if you clould join a local BDSM group and/or go to some munches you may find some experienced people who would be willing to help guide both of you, be there for support if needed...mentors of sorts.

Catalina

 

[Guest]

oh for fucks sake!

Next!

*shrug*

You disagree???

 

[Kajira Callista]

*shrug*

You disagree???

lol im thinking its just the thread in general

 

[Netzach]

This is going to be long. Those familiar with my posts can just sigh and skip on to the next entry in the thread.

TySlut,

Please allow me to add what weight, if any, I can to the following concepts and suggestions:


This - the BDSM culture - is not like being a member of a traveling minstrel show where you learn a number of different parts and may play any (or several or all) of them on a given evening. This is a way of life. Yes, many people in our culture are switches - depending on circumstance, they may be PYL one evening and pyl the next. In most cases, however, they have been in the culture for an extended period of time learning and living in one role, and then learning and living the other. To try to learn both submission and dominance - or even bottoming and topping - simultaneously would be, in my considered opinion, so difficult as to be near to impossible.

I Disagree profoundly. THIS is what you make it. Some people see their identities as very fixed and focused, and that's terrific for them. I started in SM when I was 23 years old, actively switching, with no really strong agenda, PLAYING. Playing is how we assimilate new experiences as children, playing is a legitimate way to assimilate new experiences as adults, or semi-adults.

In your considered opinion, bottoming and topping at the same time to learn is nearly impossible, and in mine it's a terrific way to sort yourself out. My considered opinion is also based on having done just that. Yes, I ID as a Domme now. No, I didn't know that immutably at the start, or if I did my explorations as a bottom certainly took me on many a pleasant detour that's taught me a lot.


I especially object to this:

"This - the BDSM culture - is not like being a member of a traveling minstrel show where you learn a number of different parts and may play any (or several or all) of them on a given evening."

I know players who have been doing just this for 20 years, who regularly present their skills, educate, and work in this community, have partners they switch fluidly with, and are in the scene for the hard, hot sweaty play.

If you are going to exclude them from the community because they don't conform to your D/s ideals, it's your loss, not mine.


Pandoravampire makes an excellent point: If you really want to submit, don't top. That specifically and especially includes the "topping from the bottom" that Catalina mentions... that's not a good thing. If you are actually do wish to submit, submit! Don't fight both his will and your own desires. All that will do is frustrate both of you beyond endurance and destroy your chances of success.

Well that's easy to say. I somehow doubt that every single poster to this thread has *never* struggled against their Top's wishes. I would say though, that if this is the norm, I agree, check your motives. Are you really invested in having a D/s or M/s relationship or do you want some control in your sex life and that's it?

As long as people treat the latter as INFERIOR no one is going to admit to wanting to be a submissive in the bedroom only, and people are going to over-reach their desires and make messes because D/s-M/s is "real and true" and play is "not." If you've ever been in a really intense top/bottom scene you will find it extremely insulting when people talk about how transitory and insignificant your experiences are, and we do all the time.

I really will flog the next person I ever hear say "just a Top" or "just a bottom"

I'm not trying to pick on you especially, I just see this subtext coming to a head here. Everyone is taking the tone of "young fools, fooling around, dangerous and sad" and frankly none of us are in this relationship with all the info.

My unsolicited 2 cents to the young couple would be this:

Dom, definitely do some reading and thinking, attend a conference like the Black Rose one I just attended if at all possible, or a meeting of an organization like TES or see Catherine Gross present her presentations, or something on those lines. "Because I said so" is a rare trump card, best pulled with a slave you've had a long time. 3 weeks = not a long time. Witholding information at this early stage in the game is only confusing your slave. Witholding information in an established D/s relationship becomes your prerogative at times -- you are putting cart before horse. You have not created a sufficient foundation of trust, even though you have made inroads there, in order to play your "you don't need to know" card.

Are you, at 20, able to take full responsibility for another human being, health, wealth, choices, and all? In college? Sorry dude, no. Lay the groundwork and wait. Play, have hot sweaty scenes, take some of the pressure off yourself and off the girl, test one limited area at a time, make her want to obey which is different from making her obey.

You both have a lot of figuring out of who you are, speaking from stats and experience at 30. (young enough to remember and empathize, old enough to know)

As for sub chick, "don't top" ...easier said than done.

Ask yourself every time you do it WHY you are doing it. Make it a habit to tell your Dom why you are doing it as soon as you figure it out, respectfully and in an appropriate time and place, like lounging around drinking cheap beers on the dorm floor.

Tell your Dom what's freaking you out, what you think MIGHT be holding you back, make this a subject of dialogue.

If he doesn't have patience or interest in this, if he doesn't ever seem to want to talk about it THEN I say move on.

 

[Guest]

I Disagree profoundly. THIS is what you make it. Some people see their identities as very fixed and focused, and that's terrific for them. I started in SM when I was 23 years old, actively switching, with no really strong agenda, PLAYING. Playing is how we assimilate new experiences as children, playing is a legitimate way to assimilate new experiences as adults, or semi-adults.

In your considered opinion, bottoming and topping at the same time to learn is nearly impossible, and in mine it's a terrific way to sort yourself out. My considered opinion is also based on having done just that. Yes, I ID as a Domme now. No, I didn't know that immutably at the start, or if I did my explorations as a bottom certainly took me on many a pleasant detour that's taught me a lot.


I especially object to this:

"This - the BDSM culture - is not like being a member of a traveling minstrel show where you learn a number of different parts and may play any (or several or all) of them on a given evening."

I know players who have been doing just this for 20 years, who regularly present their skills, educate, and work in this community, have partners they switch fluidly with, and are in the scene for the hard, hot sweaty play.

If you are going to exclude them from the community because they don't conform to your D/s ideals, it's your loss, not mine.


Pandoravampire makes an excellent point: If you really want to submit, don't top. That specifically and especially includes the "topping from the bottom" that Catalina mentions... that's not a good thing. If you are actually do wish to submit, submit! Don't fight both his will and your own desires. All that will do is frustrate both of you beyond endurance and destroy your chances of success.

Well that's easy to say. I somehow doubt that every single poster to this thread has *never* struggled against their Top's wishes. I would say though, that if this is the norm, I agree, check your motives. Are you really invested in having a D/s or M/s relationship or do you want some control in your sex life and that's it?

As long as people treat the latter as INFERIOR no one is going to admit to wanting to be a submissive in the bedroom only, and people are going to over-reach their desires and make messes because D/s-M/s is "real and true" and play is "not." If you've ever been in a really intense top/bottom scene you will find it extremely insulting when people talk about how transitory and insignificant your experiences are, and we do all the time.

I really will flog the next person I ever hear say "just a Top" or "just a bottom"

I'm not trying to pick on you especially, I just see this subtext coming to a head here. Everyone is taking the tone of "young fools, fooling around, dangerous and sad" and frankly none of us are in this relationship with all the info.

My unsolicited 2 cents to the young couple would be this:

Dom, definitely do some reading and thinking, attend a conference like the Black Rose one I just attended if at all possible, or a meeting of an organization like TES or see Catherine Gross present her presentations, or something on those lines. "Because I said so" is a rare trump card, best pulled with a slave you've had a long time. 3 weeks = not a long time. Witholding information at this early stage in the game is only confusing your slave. Witholding information in an established D/s relationship becomes your prerogative at times -- you are putting cart before horse. You have not created a sufficient foundation of trust, even though you have made inroads there, in order to play your "you don't need to know" card.

Are you, at 20, able to take full responsibility for another human being, health, wealth, choices, and all? In college? Sorry dude, no. Lay the groundwork and wait. Play, have hot sweaty scenes, take some of the pressure off yourself and off the girl, test one limited area at a time, make her want to obey which is different from making her obey.

You both have a lot of figuring out of who you are, speaking from stats and experience at 30. (young enough to remember and empathize, old enough to know)

As for sub chick, "don't top" ...easier said than done.

Ask yourself every time you do it WHY you are doing it. Make it a habit to tell your Dom why you are doing it as soon as you figure it out, respectfully and in an appropriate time and place, like lounging around drinking cheap beers on the dorm floor.

Tell your Dom what's freaking you out, what you think MIGHT be holding you back, make this a subject of dialogue.

If he doesn't have patience or interest in this, if he doesn't ever seem to want to talk about it THEN I say move on.

ROFL....What she said ....

Gods..I wish I had a couple of bucks for every pyl that I have heard say they were tired of topping from the bottom. Because the "Tops" in question couldn't find their ass with both hands.
*grin* I actuallt had one a few years ago that was amazed..Not just happy..Amazed that I knew how to do simple basic "Bondage 101" rope work..Including knots. That she didn't have to tell me how to do a tie so as to not cut off her circulation.
Can you believe that shit?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I Disagree profoundly. THIS is what you make it. Some people see their identities as very fixed and focused, and that's terrific for them. I started in SM when I was 23 years old, actively switching, with no really strong agenda, PLAYING. Playing is how we assimilate new experiences as children, playing is a legitimate way to assimilate new experiences as adults, or semi-adults.

In your considered opinion, bottoming and topping at the same time to learn is nearly impossible, and in mine it's a terrific way to sort yourself out. My considered opinion is also based on having done just that. Yes, I ID as a Domme now. No, I didn't know that immutably at the start, or if I did my explorations as a bottom certainly took me on many a pleasant detour that's taught me a lot.

Mea culpa. I wrote that paragraph much more poorly than I would have wished. I will, however, stand by my opinion re a young, new member of the culture simultaneously learning both submission and dominance (though upon re-reading the entire thread, I don't now see it that he is wanting her to learn dominance as much as to provide him with sensations at his direction, which is - as someone else pointed out - still bottoming or submitting to his desires). The mindsets of dominance and submission are so radically opposed that I cannot understand how someone could learn to do both simultaneously. As I have never "bottomed" and seldom "topped" (i.e., played), but rather almost always been in committed D/s or M/s relationships, I cannot really speak to the idea of learning both at the same time, though on reflection I can see that this could well be possible for some people, and I will bow to your superior experience in this regard.

I especially object to this:

"This - the BDSM culture - is not like being a member of a traveling minstrel show where you learn a number of different parts and may play any (or several or all) of them on a given evening."

I know players who have been doing just this for 20 years, who regularly present their skills, educate, and work in this community, have partners they switch fluidly with, and are in the scene for the hard, hot sweaty play.

If you are going to exclude them from the community because they don't conform to your D/s ideals, it's your loss, not mine.

I feel you misunderstood this, particularly taken out of context with the statements that follow it, which were intended to remain related to it: "This is a way of life. Yes, many people in our culture are switches - depending on circumstance, they may be PYL one evening and pyl the next. In most cases, however, they have been in the culture for an extended period of time learning and living in one role, and then learning and living the other."

I also know a number of switches with a great deal of experience. I would never, ever, ever try - or want - to exclude them from the community. If that is the sense you got from what I wrote, I apologize; it was not in any way intended to imply that.

Pandoravampire makes an excellent point: If you really want to submit, don't top. That specifically and especially includes the "topping from the bottom" that Catalina mentions... that's not a good thing. If you actually do wish to submit, submit! Don't fight both his will and your own desires. All that will do is frustrate both of you beyond endurance and destroy your chances of success.

Well that's easy to say. I somehow doubt that every single poster to this thread has *never* struggled against their Top's wishes. I would say though, that if this is the norm, I agree, check your motives. Are you really invested in having a D/s or M/s relationship or do you want some control in your sex life and that's it?

As long as people treat the latter as INFERIOR no one is going to admit to wanting to be a submissive in the bedroom only, and people are going to over-reach their desires and make messes because D/s-M/s is "real and true" and play is "not." If you've ever been in a really intense top/bottom scene you will find it extremely insulting when people talk about how transitory and insignificant your experiences are, and we do all the time.

I really will flog the next person I ever hear say "just a Top" or "just a bottom"

I'm not trying to pick on you especially, I just see this subtext coming to a head here. Everyone is taking the tone of "young fools, fooling around, dangerous and sad" and frankly none of us are in this relationship with all the info.

Again, I apparently need to apologize for poor writing or phrasing. Perhaps I should have broken that post up into several, as I tried to condense my thoughts in order to keep the post to a somewhat-manageable length. It seems that condensing those thoughts led to a sad lack of clarity. I never intended to suggest that she would or should never struggle against her PYL's wishes, or that anyone should. My intent was to suggest that she should - as you say - examine her motives and decide if this is really what she wants, and if so, then give it her all. Of course there will be times that she struggles - very, very little in life that is worthwhile is achieved without struggle.

As far as saying, "just a Top" or "just a bottom," I don't think I've ever done so, so I believe at least my backside is safe from your flogger.

I understand that you are not trying to pick on me especially. In all honesty, I appreciate you pointing out through your disagreement and objections how poorly I transmitted my ideas. As always, I value your input and thoughts, as I consider you a valuable, informed and thoughtful person, willing to share your thoughts and experiences with us. For one who frequently advises, "Communicate, communicate, communicate!" I obviously did a remarkably poor job of "practicing what I preach," and for that, I apologize.

Yes, I do to some extent feel that they are verging on dangerous behavior - however, their reaching into this fount of experience and concern leaves me hopeful that they will avoid a precipitous descent into the pitfalls that can lie ahead. I wish them every good thing, and hope they will not feel that any of us who have responded to this thread are putting them down or denigrating them, but rather expressing our concern and trying to share what we have learned with them, to make their journey into our culture a happy one.

 

[TySlut26]

I apologize to anyone I've been rude to on this thread, sincerely. Me and my boyfriend did talk about everything that everyone said last night and yes, we did make a list of things each of us can and can't do. Some of you'll be happy to here that one of them was no more "because I said so" and another one was LISTEN to people who are older and have more experience in this area than we do. Oh, and I'm not allowed to post for a while, so thank you everyone for your advice, it really did help even if you don't think I listened, and I'll be back in a couple weeks.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

<snip>Oh, and I'm not allowed to post for a while, so thank you everyone for your advice, it really did help even if you don't think I listened, and I'll be back in a couple weeks.

We do wish you both all the best, and we hope that while you're not posting, you're both still perusing the board and the library, and thinking and talking about what you find here. We look forward to hearing more about your journey, and celebrating it with you.

 

[s'lara]

i hope this person wasn't overwhelmed by our concern. i also hope that the restriction to posting was about concentrating on classes and not about isolation from helpful BDSMers who can see outside of the immediate relationship.

In an effort to make sure there are resources available for them both when and if she returns, i will leave a few links that may help in the initial steps.

D/s Contracts

Discipline/Punishment

Dominance

Exploring BDSM

Introspection

Limits

Masochism

Pain/Sensory Play

Relationships

Safewords/Safecalls

Sub Drop

Submission

Subspace

Switch

Total Power Exchange (TPE)

Good luck to both. i hope you (both) return and find a way to keep learning/exploring safely together.

lara