Submission a Gift or What?

[catalina_francisco]

WOW this thread got wild...

HEY, I am just coomenting on some things I saw, NO person in perticular, I don't even remember who said what so if you said something and I comment on it, this isn't directed at you okay? Okay!

, I hate it when people tell me things like "you haven't met the right man"... its annoying for the fact I find it patronizing... and LIFE ISN'T one size fits all people... maybe it'll be Mrs Right... or formally Mr and now Ms Right, who fucking knows... but that's too presumptuous IMO...
Which is why I used "Master Right" nice umbrella term... use umbrella terms people!

Okay and,

Why is it such a crime to believe my submission is worth something, and seek out my perfectly complimenting match to give it to?

AND when I find this person (see, nice and general hehe *wink*)

Why can't I believe I bring something to the table and talk about it to other people(not the Dom/me) I wouldn't say to the person directly, I would show them. A lot of people say lots, but do very little, I personally believe people who talk a lot aren't the ones who really are about action, I preffer to show things, (like I show I am smart, rather than say it) the only exception is here, where I have to explain since we can only read each others words...

People keep saying submissives think their submission is such a big deal, and dangle it like a carrot... I think these statements give the connotation that submission is somehow less than... and I think people should know what they have to offer and have some pride about themself

There's nothing wrong with that. People who don't appreciate what they are and have to offer try to make others feel like they do... they try to make others feel small (I don't identify as a sub BTW)

I just think sometimes when you're not submissive in nature and you admire someone so much and want to learn from them and choose to give this person control on many levels, and I am talking even if you don't want to, or want to protest (in life, in sex) but bite your toungue because you see this person has a vision and you want to help make that come true, and you trust the person... and want to please them, and know you want to take on the personal lessons and growth at the expense of some pain and frustration in conditioning yourself to really be strong enough to hold your toungue and not be disrespectful or when you are told to do something and you might be a little scared and you take that leap of faith first step, and you heart is pounding.... Submission is amazing people and don't downplay it... Its diffrent than calling the shots, and I never said I didn't see my PYL as a gift... and I do,

So why does the tread have to be done,
Lets beat the dead cow! Haha Jk

I don't find anything wrong with your goals, sounds pretty much what I set out to find and was told by some was impossible, but hey, I'm living it while many who found it unbelievable and ridiculous are still alone and lonely.

It is sad though to skip across tonight's threads after being off the forum for an hour or so to find some of those who do not agree ITE submission can be a gift, or that romance can be a very valid and real part of it to still be making double meaning posts in various other threads (even Netzach's birthday thread) aimed at making fun of the views of those who don't share their experience/view, and yet accusing them of being the ones to carry it on and not accept people have different experiences and needs...and yet I haven't been posting innuendos elsewhere, nor have others as far as I can see. This is why I have been avoiding the forum a lot of late...it always comes down to this sort of bitching and ridiculing of the reality of others. Personally I don't need it and fail to see the point they are trying to make if they claim to be so accepting and expect the same.

Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[nh23]

I don't find anything wrong with your goals, sounds pretty much what I set out to find and was told by some was impossible, but hey, I'm living it while many who found it unbelievable and ridiculous are still alone and lonely.

It is sad though to skip across tonight's threads after being off the forum for an hour or so to find some of those who do not agree ITE submission can be a gift, or that romance can be a very valid and real part of it to still be making double meaning posts in various other threads (even Netzach's birthday thread) aimed at making fun of the views of those who don't share their experience/view, and yet accusing them of being the ones to carry it on and not accept people have different experiences and needs...and yet I haven't been posting innuendos elsewhere, nor have others as far as I can see. This is why I have been avoiding the forum a lot of late...it always comes down to this sort of bitching and ridiculing of the reality of others. Personally I don't need it and fail to see the point they are trying to make if they claim to be so accepting and expect the same.

Catalina

Sometimes humor is used to lighten the mood, ease some of the tension.

 

[catalina_francisco]

We haven't meet IRL yet so some of you might call it fantasy, just words or whatever, but one day we will meet. I know we will cuz we both want it. I will wait months maybe years? I dunno and I don't care either, for me it's wort it, he's worth it. You call it fantasy - I call it love.

I wouldn't sweat it too much. F and I planned and paid for our wedding before ever meeting, and within 2 weeks of meeting in RL were married on the first day it was legally possible. Do we regret it? Hell no. Was it a bad decision? Definately not. Are we blissfully in love and shagging each other nearly every day at least once even though we are going on for 6 years together? Darn right and it just gets better and better. Do we support each other through good and bad? Yep, and there have been some fairly traumatic moments in our lives for both of us over those years. Funnily enough, the 'friends' who were most certain I was making the worst mistake of my life are the same ones who no longer reply to my emails or letters and have cut me off completely. Could it be they are pissed off to find their prophecies did not come true and in fact have worked out quite the opposite?

Catalina

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

Could it be they are pissed off to find their prophecies did not come true and in fact have worked out quite the opposite?

Catalina

haha I think so

Honestly Cat, what you live and have with F is something I want for myself. I think it's every sub's dream really (okay almost every sub's dream LOL). I am glad you have found the special person and living your dream for real now. It surely is a gift and it warms my heart to read how much in love you are with F and how you still enjoy each others. Thats so nice and Hell yeah I want it for myself too!!

I could see things black and white real to if I wanted lol, but I don't want too. I like to dream and one sweet day my dreams will come true and I don't give a shit if someone believes it or not hehe. I know what I want and need from life and I will get it.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't find anything wrong with your goals, sounds pretty much what I set out to find and was told by some was impossible, but hey, I'm living it while many who found it unbelievable and ridiculous are still alone and lonely.

It is sad though to skip across tonight's threads after being off the forum for an hour or so to find some of those who do not agree ITE submission can be a gift, or that romance can be a very valid and real part of it to still be making double meaning posts in various other threads (even Netzach's birthday thread) aimed at making fun of the views of those who don't share their experience/view, and yet accusing them of being the ones to carry it on and not accept people have different experiences and needs...and yet I haven't been posting innuendos elsewhere, nor have others as far as I can see. This is why I have been avoiding the forum a lot of late...it always comes down to this sort of bitching and ridiculing of the reality of others. Personally I don't need it and fail to see the point they are trying to make if they claim to be so accepting and expect the same.

Catalina

For the record, I'm sorry if my joke in the birthday thread was callous. I was thinking it would be funny because it has been such a hot button issue, not because your point of view is funny.

 

[intothewoods]

I think all of us around here - well, the women anyway (the men have their own issues, and I'll deal with them separately ) - take things wayyyy too personally. I've been guilty of it myself.

And I've been guilty of being totally obtuse. I hurt someone's feelings last week, I think it was, because my style is kind of direct and brash. I got nothing on Netzach (I was completely intimidated by her for the longest time!), but I can sure bring it sometimes.

I also think sometimes people around here refuse to consider a different point of view. I'm not directing that at one person either. It's wonderful to argue for your point of view passionately. Many of us are passionate women. But ya know what? None of us are life experts quite yet.

 

[EmpressFi]

Wow.. see what happens when I go to work..that's it.. I'm staying home and doing internet porn for a living

first..

I do agree with chelleb's view - the ACT of submitting or domination can be a gift, if and when you feel you can trust the person fully, that you have a special bond with them, then the ACT of submitting or dominating can be a wonderful gift for them, and for them to receive it.

Thank you, for saying what I'd tried to say earlier and made a muck of it.. being a submissive is who I am.. my acts of submission.. that is the gift I bring to him

Is love a gift.. Netz I love the way you put it...

I'm totally able to enjoy, cherish and adore M without slapping some kind of a commodity-thinking thing onto it, at least some of the time. I mean I know I'm a consumer if you really map it out, but I still have some shred of Marxist idealism that says even people who want to get fucked up the butt by me are not commodities.

I think I'm a perfectly kick ass person and partner, but relationships are work and liabilities and hard as often as easy and effort. No one has made me as upset or as happy as my husband - is he giving me a gift? I think the universe is giving me a gift, he's just it. I think it's really arrogant to think we are our own to give and take and move around and have this wonderful sense of control in picking who we run into and who we open up to- fate and people and emotions collide and we're just lucky if we get a tenth of what we want and need.

Kiss the ass of whatever you believe made you meet your SO in the first place if you've ever loved anyone.

almost 13 years ago, Malin hit on a woman in an AOL chatroom. She flirted back but still told me that I needed to talk to this guy. I told him that I could tell him how he got his screen name.. he didnt think I could... and I did. A few months later, my marriage was in trouble.. and I was complaining to my new friend about that... he said, "Of course it is, you're there...with a man who isnt your husband." (Malin's brutally honest sometimes)... a few months later.. I nervously stood on a doorstep and told the 4 year old who opened the door I was there meet his uncle and was introduced to the entire family...before looking up and falling into his eyes. Four years later... I married that man... even the days when he makes me so mad I could spit.. the days when we scream at each other so loudly the cats scatter and the windows shake... yes.. even the days when I'm standing ankle deep in water because the washer drain blocked up ... again.. every day, I thank the powers that be that Donna didnt snatch him up first.. that they brought us together..

And every day I thank them also that something.. something told my Star Wars hating heart to look over at Malin's screen and say, "Mind if I try playing that?" And that something in that game snagged my attention... And that one day, he and I decided to create a bulletin board for other friends of ours who also play Star Wars Galaxies.. almost a year into the game.. I started hanging out with this guy. He was smart and drew people to him, people respected him and went to him for advice. Then the powers that be had me mention being poly and having explored being a submissive.. the bond grew.. and soon my mind knew what my heart already did... he was Master.. and I am so very thankful to be with him...

Which leads me to my next comment...Just as I dont fully comprehend TPE.. or the D/lg way of life...etc.. it's ok that some of you (as in general term) dont understand how people who practice the poly lifestyle can sustain two full relationships at one time. I'm' not sure I can understand it either... Hell before Malin met his other gf, I wouldnt have understood it either... hell there's another one of those..thank the powers that be.. If we hadnt played EQ and he hadnt met her.. we might not have ever tried going poly...

This is my second poly relationship..the first was a fling. He and I have been together for over a year and the intensity of what I feel for him is the same intensity that I feel for Malin. While I'm physically with Malin every day, I'm in IM contact with Master pretty much from the time we wake up until it's time to go to bed.

Am I romanticizing.. yeah.. definitely.. I am.but those are my feelings on things. The dirty socks, dirty dishes that get left everywhere, fights over money, struggling to pay bills, the death of grandparents, death of siblings, death of pets, buying a house, unemployment... yeah.. it has all happened... but it dims to near non-cognizance compared to the simple joy I get from "I love you Puddin" or, "You rock my world"

I'm not saying anyone's viewpoint on the OP's question is right or wrong.. it's just their viewpoint. I dont have to agree .. to be respectful and I hope I have been..and if I havent, I apologize.

Oh.. and.. this is just to make you smile.. I promise.. this is my OCD talking..

Lynn Kurland, in two of her historical romances, has a hero who is blind and tries to hide it from everyone and has a wife who'd been abused so was scarred all over her body from being whipped..but they learned to take care of each other..even when they pissed each other off and made a mess of things. Also, she had a heroine who was injured and walked with a limp. Many of Nora Robert's books, especially the trilogies, deal with the mundane parts of life and the uglier sides of people. Also, Julie Garwood, she used to write historical romances and, in my eyes, changed the heroine from someone who rescues instead of being the one rescued. She writes strong women, smart women, flawed women.

But again, just because someone doesnt like romance novels and someone else may.. doesnt mean that either choice is "wrong".. it's just.. different.

 

[unfoundiamond]

interesting...

Good thread!

~XoXoX~

 

[intothewoods]

I don't mean to interrupt, but I am totally confused by this paragraph:

almost 13 years ago, Malin hit on a woman in an AOL chatroom. She flirted back but still told me that I needed to talk to this guy. I told him that I could tell him how he got his screen name.. he didnt think I could... and I did. A few months later, my marriage was in trouble.. and I was complaining to my new friend about that... he said, "Of course it is, you're there...with a man who isnt your husband." (Malin's brutally honest sometimes)... a few months later.. I nervously stood on a doorstep and told the 4 year old who opened the door I was there meet his uncle and was introduced to the entire family...before looking up and falling into his eyes. Four years later... I married that man... even the days when he makes me so mad I could spit.. the days when we scream at each other so loudly the cats scatter and the windows shake... yes.. even the days when I'm standing ankle deep in water because the washer drain blocked up ... again.. every day, I thank the powers that be that Donna didnt snatch him up first.. that they brought us together..

Wait, Malin is your husband, right? You were married before? That was the marriage that was in trouble? Who were you with that wasn't your husband? Can I get a chronology? I'm sorry to bug you - it's just puzzling me! Lol...

 

[EmpressFi]

I don't mean to interrupt, but I am totally confused by this paragraph:



Wait, Malin is your husband, right? You were married before? That was the marriage that was in trouble? Who were you with that wasn't your husband? Can I get a chronology? I'm sorry to bug you - it's just puzzling me! Lol...

Sorry.. ADD taking over brain.. I'll give you a more indepth chronology

1990 married X
1992 realized something was really wrong with X
April 1995 - met Malin in an AOL chatroom... my marriage to X was .. well we were good friends at least..
July 1995 - miscarried (that's how I found out I was pregnant, btw). Two week later, X decided he wanted to try anal sex by forcing me to have it with him. I.. stunned.. did nothing.
August 1995 - flew to Atlanta and had an affair with another person I met in the same AOL chatroom. While in Atlanta, I was chatting with my friend Malin (Lostboy at the time), and mentioned I was having problems in my marriage to X. I didnt tell him about the rape. But he said, "of course you are, you're in Atlanta, sleeping with another man."Came back and X tried to "punish" me by attempting to kill himself and let me find the body. Two weeks later, I started looking for a way to take care of myself and found a traveling RN's job, told X I wanted a divorce.
October 1995 - flew to California to have my first BDSM experience. X told me if I left and didnt come back, he'd make sure my family knew all about what a whore I was. Came back from Ca and the guy I was with was already seeing someone else. Malin and I started talking more and flirting more.
November 1995 - I moved out on my own and to Richmond Va. On my first weekend off.. I called Malin and said, "did you really mean what you said about wanting to meet?" He said yes, I drove to New Jersey and met his entire family the first time I met him.

Not to over-romanticize the meeting..but he walked down the stairs, wearing..I dont remember the pants..but a black sweat jacket, had his hands in the pockets and his hair down over his face..he looked up, I saw the blue eyes..and knew..something inside just clicked..

See.. not to backtrack too much..but when I was in college.. I loved someone with so much passion it nearly destroyed me when we were separated by my move to VA. I can remember writing in my journal when I met X.. that who needs passion to survive.. tried to convince myself that it would be ok if I just liked the person and we had a lot in common..how fucked up is that??? Anyway..one look at Malin..and I knew.. just knew inside that this is where I needed to be.. I had the same feeling when Master stepped off the plane.. I just knew.. I am meant to be with him.. with them..

Malin and I laugh that he's my husband..and Master is my OSO.. or Other Significant Other... I like that description

sorry for rambling.... sorry if anything was TMI.. but that should fill in the timeline until I met malin

 

[intothewoods]

Sorry.. ADD taking over brain.. I'll give you a more indepth chronology

1990 married X
1992 realized something was really wrong with X
April 1995 - met Malin in an AOL chatroom... my marriage to X was .. well we were good friends at least..
July 1995 - miscarried (that's how I found out I was pregnant, btw). Two week later, X decided he wanted to try anal sex by forcing me to have it with him. I.. stunned.. did nothing.
August 1995 - flew to Atlanta and had an affair with another person I met in the same AOL chatroom. While in Atlanta, I was chatting with my friend Malin (Lostboy at the time), and mentioned I was having problems in my marriage to X. I didnt tell him about the rape. But he said, "of course you are, you're in Atlanta, sleeping with another man."Came back and X tried to "punish" me by attempting to kill himself and let me find the body. Two weeks later, I started looking for a way to take care of myself and found a traveling RN's job, told X I wanted a divorce.
October 1995 - flew to California to have my first BDSM experience. X told me if I left and didnt come back, he'd make sure my family knew all about what a whore I was. Came back from Ca and the guy I was with was already seeing someone else. Malin and I started talking more and flirting more.
November 1995 - I moved out on my own and to Richmond Va. On my first weekend off.. I called Malin and said, "did you really mean what you said about wanting to meet?" He said yes, I drove to New Jersey and met his entire family the first time I met him.

Not to over-romanticize the meeting..but he walked down the stairs, wearing..I dont remember the pants..but a black sweat jacket, had his hands in the pockets and his hair down over his face..he looked up, I saw the blue eyes..and knew..something inside just clicked..

See.. not to backtrack too much..but when I was in college.. I loved someone with so much passion it nearly destroyed me when we were separated by my move to VA. I can remember writing in my journal when I met X.. that who needs passion to survive.. tried to convince myself that it would be ok if I just liked the person and we had a lot in common..how fucked up is that??? Anyway..one look at Malin..and I knew.. just knew inside that this is where I needed to be.. I had the same feeling when Master stepped off the plane.. I just knew.. I am meant to be with him.. with them..

Malin and I laugh that he's my husband..and Master is my OSO.. or Other Significant Other... I like that description

sorry for rambling.... sorry if anything was TMI.. but that should fill in the timeline until I met malin

Yes! That explained it. Thank you for telling the story.

 

[EmpressFi]

I've said it before.. to other people, etc.. but I want to say it again. I am, in no manner of speaking proud of how I handled my first marriage. if there was one thing I'd change if I could.. it's the fact that I cheated on him. I was miserable, young, and stupid.. and handled things poorly.. it is my heaviest mistake

 

[ecstaticsub]

On the subject of whether or not Dominance is a gift and that the whole submission as a gift theory is insulting or belittles the commitment that a Dominant makes--

Yes, I think of submission as a gift, but no I don't think of Dominance as a gift. It is way more than that. I don't know what word I would use but "gift" doesn't fit. My Dom is about 10 yrs older than me and has had at least a few submissives before me. I know the one before me causes him emotional pain. He had told me when we were first getting to know each other that he would never have another submissive because of the responsibility and emotional energy that it took. He said he took being a Dominant very seriously and if he couldn't give what was needed to do it right, then he wouldn't do it.

About 3 months later after a certain situation came up I offered my "gift" of submission to him, my promise to obey and to be his. His acceptance--which wasn't right away--is something I will be forever grateful for. I fully appreciate what it took for him to make this decision. Everyday in so many ways I am reminded that what he has given me is more precious and valued than any gift could be.

This whole discussion over a few threads about what is a gift and what is not it really doesn't matter. (at least to me and those who love me --Fi I love the OSO term! ) I know that in my relationship with my Dom even more than my marriage we appreciate the time,effort, and emotional investment we both bring in to it. Maybe because it is an extramartal relationship for both of us and it is long distance--it requires more and it it is well worth the effort.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really don't think many if any submissives think their "gift" is of any more value than what our Dominants give us, we aprreciate them greatly.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

It is sad though to skip across tonight's threads after being off the forum for an hour or so to find some of those who do not agree ITE submission can be a gift, or that romance can be a very valid and real part of it to still be making double meaning posts in various other threads (even Netzach's birthday thread) aimed at making fun of the views of those who don't share their experience/view, and yet accusing them of being the ones to carry it on and not accept people have different experiences and needs...and yet I haven't been posting innuendos elsewhere, nor have others as far as I can see. This is why I have been avoiding the forum a lot of late...it always comes down to this sort of bitching and ridiculing of the reality of others. Personally I don't need it and fail to see the point they are trying to make if they claim to be so accepting and expect the same.

Catalina

Cat, I'm finding that on several threads you and I are in total agreement. I quit posting and went to lurking for most of the reasons mentioned in your quoted post above... especially the last two sentences. It really makes me sad to see how these forums have gone, because this is where I started my journey.

I would add my thoughts on the subject, but I've posted it before and do not feel like being attacked for my position on the subject.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Gift??

I finally get to post on my own thread.... I am sorry if people do not agree with me or if you do agree thats wonderful. I think alot things had been said by all that we are getting in this Subbier than thou and a pissing contest, I didnt start this thread for everyone to get at each others throat. I didnt want people to hurt one another here, every one is entitled to thier own opinion and I respect that, but bashing doesnt have to happen.. Now on to my opinion..

I belive 110% my submission is a gift I gave to my dom with no expectations and nothing in return promised. Now have I met the one I belive Ive looked for all my life , yes... but I am not one who can bottom and allow someone blindly to take me , just like I cant do one night stands.. that is ME and ME alone no one else and I am not judge nor jury... I do not judge anyone for thier actions but for me I wouldnt be able to bottom, or submit to someone I dont explictly trust.. My Dom tells me Ive given him a gift... and as long as that works for us it doesnt really matter IMHO... He asked me to add a note to this from him which I will do in my next paragraph... He has been Swamped with work...

DrkSwrd: Opionions are like a$$holes, everyone has one can we please just get along here..

I hope I didnt offend anyone.. and I hope my dom didnt either but it is sad that we have to bash one another..

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

I finally get to post on my own thread.... I am sorry if people do not agree with me or if you do agree thats wonderful. I think alot things had been said by all that we are getting in this Subbier than thou and a pissing contest, I didnt start this thread for everyone to get at each others throat. I didnt want people to hurt one another here, every one is entitled to thier own opinion and I respect that, but bashing doesnt have to happen.. Now on to my opinion..

I belive 110% my submission is a gift I gave to my dom with no expectations and nothing in return promised. Now have I met the one I belive Ive looked for all my life , yes... but I am not one who can bottom and allow someone blindly to take me , just like I cant do one night stands.. that is ME and ME alone no one else and I am not judge nor jury... I do not judge anyone for thier actions but for me I wouldnt be able to bottom, or submit to someone I dont explictly trust.. My Dom tells me Ive given him a gift... and as long as that works for us it doesnt really matter IMHO... He asked me to add a note to this from him which I will do in my next paragraph... He has been Swamped with work...

DrkSwrd: Opionions are like a$$holes, everyone has one can we please just get along here..

I hope I didnt offend anyone.. and I hope my dom didnt either but it is sad that we have to bash one another..

You started a good thread SubKekiLee!! Please do not be upset theres few disagreements in the way people see submission as a gift or not. Hundert people will always have hundert different opinions. I agree with some, dissagree with some and just smile over some yes.

I said what I think and so did the rest I think, personaly I am okay with it. Some posts here was a bit sarcastic, but it just made me smile really. I still think what I think, for me submission is a gift and if someone thinks different thats okay. I have no need to force someone to see it the same way as I do.


Btw, tell your Dom it was a lovely note! He's right, can we just get along here? I think we can and do. I have no prob with people who do not have the same view of thigs as I do. I listen to them, but at the end I still have my own view of things usualy. No need to bash anyone.

Things like this can't stop me from posting on this webby. When I see threads like this one and it turns into something where peope get at each others throat I just smile about it usualy.

 

[unfoundiamond]

I agree

*smile*

I am glad I am not the only one who's thinks its a gift, but I don't speak for everyone...

Maybe we are the exception not the rule...

 

[nh23]

I finally get to post on my own thread.... I am sorry if people do not agree with me or if you do agree thats wonderful. I think alot things had been said by all that we are getting in this Subbier than thou and a pissing contest, I didnt start this thread for everyone to get at each others throat. I didnt want people to hurt one another here, every one is entitled to thier own opinion and I respect that, but bashing doesnt have to happen.. Now on to my opinion..

I belive 110% my submission is a gift I gave to my dom with no expectations and nothing in return promised. Now have I met the one I belive Ive looked for all my life , yes... but I am not one who can bottom and allow someone blindly to take me , just like I cant do one night stands.. that is ME and ME alone no one else and I am not judge nor jury... I do not judge anyone for thier actions but for me I wouldnt be able to bottom, or submit to someone I dont explictly trust.. My Dom tells me Ive given him a gift... and as long as that works for us it doesnt really matter IMHO... He asked me to add a note to this from him which I will do in my next paragraph... He has been Swamped with work...

DrkSwrd: Opionions are like a$$holes, everyone has one can we please just get along here..

I hope I didnt offend anyone.. and I hope my dom didnt either but it is sad that we have to bash one another..

I think it was a good thread SKL. I think there are very strong opinions on both sides..but that's ok. We are all entitled to our opinion. I tend to get sarcastic and probably downright rude at times when I'm passionate about something. I'm sure I need to look at how I word things or how my posts look to others. I still think it was a great thread for reflecting on other opinions.