Submission - Love involved

[Etoile]

Okay, see, here's my thing. And this is speaking as a linguist who is on the pyl side of the equation.

There is a difference between being 'submissive' and being 'a submissive.' Many people are submissive in various situations; being submissive is an adjective, a character trait. Some people are submissive all the time; this might mean that they are submissive to anybody who comes along, including doms and pseudo-doms. But some people embody submission. They are a submissive, but that doesn't mean they are always submissive. Being a submissive means being aware of the role and its responsibilities, rather than being passive and going along with everything. Being a submissive means that you know who you are, and you know what you're looking for, and you have specific interests, so you find someone you are compatible with. Being totally submissive means that you depend on someone else to tell you who you are, and what your interests are. For some people, that works - that's how they're comfortable. For others, they are only comfortable giving submission to a particular person.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

Wow!

Okay, see, here's my thing. And this is speaking as a linguist who is on the pyl side of the equation.

There is a difference between being 'submissive' and being 'a submissive.' Many people are submissive in various situations; being submissive is an adjective, a character trait. Some people are submissive all the time; this might mean that they are submissive to anybody who comes along, including doms and pseudo-doms. But some people embody submission. They are a submissive, but that doesn't mean they are always submissive. Being a submissive means being aware of the role and its responsibilities, rather than being passive and going along with everything. Being a submissive means that you know who you are, and you know what you're looking for, and you have specific interests, so you find someone you are compatible with. Being totally submissive means that you depend on someone else to tell you who you are, and what your interests are. For some people, that works - that's how they're comfortable. For others, they are only comfortable giving submission to a particular person.

This was beautifully expressed- could never have said it as eloquently as you have, Etoile.

 

[Netzach]

It took much more than love for me. It took 8 years, huge things that others would choose not to accept being accepted, a major illness, this same person's willingness to let go completely in *my* control in scene. (I trust those who trust me, and will always lack the potential to trust those who can't trust me with that.)

It took me, married to my submissive, post-sick and 33 some months, not me 26 and green and desperately in need, me having tried submitting to him in the past saying "this hurts too much, I want to Domniate only, it's not me" - and him feeling about me that he didn't really care WHAT we did together because it's always good.

It took me the person who did just that for about 6 years and happily - topped and fucked him, lived with topped and fucked my husband, took on a slave of my own to explore my desires for edgeplay these men don't seek. It took a joint effort to pay attention to boundaries, needs, and a willingness to talk strategies and real wants together.

But most of all I think 8 years of his early prophetic remark. "I'm not easy to get rid of" being tested and proven.

It took ALL this, for me to even dip a toe in it.

And it took him, someone who will always give me less of what I want than I want, just a little less. Someone who tells me "shhh" a lot and makes me live in my skin and be present and NOT do and wait and let him act on me as he wants. As he wants, not as my new projections of how he should want would act.

Do you still see how, according to Etoile's definitions, which I've always shared to an extent, I am no way no how,"a submissive?" Viewing myself through that lens is basically a recipie for a lifetime of unhappiness chasing something that may or may never happen ignoring my own nature and potential and flat out missing the trees for the forest, to reverse the metaphor. The woods are lovely dark and deep.

But I did see the forest too. When I was ready for it. When nothing about the forest scared me or seemed to be able to hurt me anymore, and when I accepted that the bears might bite me or even kill me, but I'm OK with that, too.

Tomorrow I may decide again "this hurts too much, I don't want to do it..." and the man I do it with will come up with something which hurts less, help me help myself better, or simply hold me and kiss me and come away with me to do something else if he sees the need in me and considers it legitimate.

This would never work for a lot of people. This is the only thing that I can see working for me.

 

[neonflux]

It took much more than love for me. It took 8 years, huge things that others would choose not to accept being accepted, a major illness, this same person's willingness to let go completely in *my* control in scene. (I trust those who trust me, and will always lack the potential to trust those who can't trust me with that.)

It took me, married to my submissive, post-sick and 33 some months, not me 26 and green and desperately in need, me having tried submitting to him in the past saying "this hurts too much, I want to Domniate only, it's not me" - and him feeling about me that he didn't really care WHAT we did together because it's always good.

It took me the person who did just that for about 6 years and happily - topped and fucked him, lived with topped and fucked my husband, took on a slave of my own to explore my desires for edgeplay these men don't seek. It took a joint effort to pay attention to boundaries, needs, and a willingness to talk strategies and real wants together.

But most of all I think 8 years of his early prophetic remark. "I'm not easy to get rid of" being tested and proven.

It took ALL this, for me to even dip a toe in it.

And it took him, someone who will always give me less of what I want than I want, just a little less. Someone who tells me "shhh" a lot and makes me live in my skin and be present and NOT do and wait and let him act on me as he wants. As he wants, not as my new projections of how he should want would act.

Do you still see how, according to Etoile's definitions, which I've always shared to an extent, I am no way no how,"a submissive?" Viewing myself through that lens is basically a recipie for a lifetime of unhappiness chasing something that may or may never happen ignoring my own nature and potential and flat out missing the trees for the forest, to reverse the metaphor. The woods are lovely dark and deep.

But I did see the forest too. When I was ready for it. When nothing about the forest scared me or seemed to be able to hurt me anymore, and when I accepted that the bears might bite me or even kill me, but I'm OK with that, too.

Tomorrow I may decide again "this hurts too much, I don't want to do it..." and the man I do it with will come up with something which hurts less, help me help myself better, or simply hold me and kiss me and come away with me to do something else if he sees the need in me and considers it legitimate.

This would never work for a lot of people. This is the only thing that I can see working for me.

This "love letter" was, simply, stupendous. Thank you. Neon

P.S., It touched me deeply...

 

[Sir_Winston54]

From this Dominant/Sadist's point of view:

I can top any female who wants her butt beaten. (Sorry - I'm hopelessly hetero.) Don't need to know her, don't need to like her, don't need to have any sexual feelings toward her. All I need is my right hand, a couple of cases of toys, and her willing compliance.

To enter into a D/s, M/s, S/m or PYL/pyl relationship with someone, I need to know her, like her, respect her, trust her, have affection toward her, and most likely (but not necessarily) have sexual feelings toward her. And while my right hand and a couple of cases of toys may come into play, what counts is mental/emotional. I don't have to beat someone's ass to have/be in a PYL/pyl relationship with her. I don't have to order her around - because in a relationship, anything reasonable that I ask/mention (and some not so reasonable) will be what she wants to do, because she wants to please me. I don't have to demand that she address me as Sir/Master/PYL - because I know that she will address me with respect, and that's many, many times more important than the label with which she addresses me. (See CutieMouse's comments re addressing J as {I think} "arrogant asshole," etc.)

In short - I pretty much agree with what others have said above: submitting is one thing - being submissive in a relationship is a horse of a different color.

 

[intothewoods]

I was wincing and scrolling back through the thread, but I guess it wasn't this one that I responded to before...ahem.

Anyway. I am exploring the difference between bottom and submissive right now. I mostly bottom, and I thought of myself as submissive, but the other day I actually submitted in a scene and I thought to myself, hmm, have I really been submissive? Or just a bottom?

For me, I feel like submission is this hugely fuzzy thing. I guess I don't even fully understand the distinction between bottoming and submitting, even if I know the definitions and can bandy about both terms.

All I know is there are these layers...depending on how comfortable I am feeling and how much I trust the person with whom I'm playing, I will let myself go a bit deeper. There doesn't necessarily have to be love involved, but there has to be a whole lot of trust, and certainly affection!

 

[neonflux]

ITW, I so identify with what you've said here. I also think that there is a huge difference between bottoming and submitting. Even though one hopes that both parties get what they want out of the exchange (as a sadist, I always assume someone who's topping me does), bottoming for me is selfish since it's all about sensation. Submitting, I do rarely, and only for love. This doesn't mean that I have to be "in love" but it is a deeply loving act. The only person to whom I've submitted besides ~D is my former play partner, who is still a good friend. It was a gift, and for me an expensive one emotionally, but worth it for what it meant/did for him. Neon

 

[intothewoods]

ITW, I so identify with what you've said here. I also think that there is a huge difference between bottoming and submitting. Even though one hopes that both parties get what they want out of the exchange (as a sadist, I always assume someone who's topping me does), bottoming for me is selfish since it's all about sensation. Submitting, I do rarely, and only for love. This doesn't mean that I have to be "in love" but it is a deeply loving act. The only person to whom I've submitted besides ~D is my former play partner, who is still a good friend. It was a gift, and for me an expensive one emotionally, but worth it for what it meant/did for him. Neon

That's fascinating! Yes, I think I was able to submit to the person I did because he's been such a good friend and I do care about him. It's more than play, though not love by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Netzach]

That's a really nice question, actually.

There's giving up control - and bottoming always takes a degree, albeit sometimes an incredibly SMALL one, of giving up control, even if you are directing the other persons' every move. You are still placing yourself in anothers' hands. At what point you have "submission" is subjective and personal.

Then there's a question of service - just doing something you know your partner likes because you like them happy can be submission or not, depending on the context and how the people involved see it.

I can't even argue that what I'm doing is the same as what a lot of submissives do. I am not imposed on - I definitely present myself, I definitely *asked for* it, I continue to ask and re-express it - "take - do - use" - thereby re-submitting myself becomes part of the act - asking for it has the delicious self-implication. I won't call it humiliating because I don't find it so, but self-implication. I want this, I want to make myself as utterly available and candid and open to you as I can.

This isn't offensive to the person I'm with - my asking. I don't think he's exactly Dominant in any traditional sense. It's more like "oh, having someone I really CAN tell to do something -- this is new and kind of nice." The evidence is exciting, the display is whetting to the appetite.

I could flip him still with one word. I don't want to.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm a switch who leans toward the bottom end of the spectrum just because I'm a sensation whore. In my day-to-day life, I'm a fairly quiet, unassuming girl. I don't draw unduly attention to myself, but I'm no pushover, either. My personality is far from submissive, but I'm not one of those aggressive, in-your-face people unless you make me angry. I guess you'd say I'm quietly assertive, and I do my best to stay away from conflict altogether.

In my kinky life, I don't mind bottoming to anyone I trust not to harm me. I can only submit to B. because I love him. Why do I love him? I love him because he's taken the time to get to know me as a person, to personalize his style of domination to my style of submission, to get inside my head, to be my friend, and to care about me as well. It also helps that he's a switch, too. The fact that he feels comfortable enough to bottom to me occasionally without worrying about how it'll affect our dynamic lets me know that he trusts me as implicitly as I trust him.

I think I'm rambling.

 

[CutieMouse]

From this Dominant/Sadist's point of view:

I can top any female who wants her butt beaten. (Sorry - I'm hopelessly hetero.) Don't need to know her, don't need to like her, don't need to have any sexual feelings toward her. All I need is my right hand, a couple of cases of toys, and her willing compliance.

To enter into a D/s, M/s, S/m or PYL/pyl relationship with someone, I need to know her, like her, respect her, trust her, have affection toward her, and most likely (but not necessarily) have sexual feelings toward her. And while my right hand and a couple of cases of toys may come into play, what counts is mental/emotional. I don't have to beat someone's ass to have/be in a PYL/pyl relationship with her. I don't have to order her around - because in a relationship, anything reasonable that I ask/mention (and some not so reasonable) will be what she wants to do, because she wants to please me. I don't have to demand that she address me as Sir/Master/PYL - because I know that she will address me with respect, and that's many, many times more important than the label with which she addresses me. (See CutieMouse's comments re addressing J as {I think} "arrogant asshole," etc.)

In short - I pretty much agree with what others have said above: submitting is one thing - being submissive in a relationship is a horse of a different color.

Irreverent Asshole... and Sweetheart, Darling, Dear, My Love, J___, etc. I think I've said "Sir" twice - both times when I was being somewhat chastized for something and it just slipped out.

 

[RJMasters]

Okay, see, here's my thing. And this is speaking as a linguist who is on the pyl side of the equation.

There is a difference between being 'submissive' and being 'a submissive.' Many people are submissive in various situations; being submissive is an adjective, a character trait. Some people are submissive all the time; this might mean that they are submissive to anybody who comes along, including doms and pseudo-doms. But some people embody submission. They are a submissive, but that doesn't mean they are always submissive. Being a submissive means being aware of the role and its responsibilities, rather than being passive and going along with everything. Being a submissive means that you know who you are, and you know what you're looking for, and you have specific interests, so you find someone you are compatible with. Being totally submissive means that you depend on someone else to tell you who you are, and what your interests are. For some people, that works - that's how they're comfortable. For others, they are only comfortable giving submission to a particular person.

Very well said.

I would only add that there is actually one more "noun" defintition to the word submissive.

1. Adj submissive - A consenting act of sumission. Example: She agreed to be submissive to the Dominant's demands.

2. Noun Submissive - (By nature) "a" submissive. Example: His/Her personality, demeanor, and personhood is what makes her a submissive.

3. Noun Submissive - (By position - denotes ownership) "a" submissive. Example1: Though she is not submissive by nature, she choose to become his submissive, because she desired to submit to him. Example 2: Ryan asked Bob who it was he brought to the Munch tonight with him and he replied, "That is Sally and she is my submissive".

As you have said, sally may not be "a" submissive by nature, but because she has accepted the position of being a person's submissive, she is in fact "a" submissive.

I agree 100% with what you said, I am just expounding on it a bit. Submissive can be by Choice, by Nature or by Position. Each can be three entirely different from one another, and there can also be overlap between them.

 

[Plucky19]

I've never really thought about this because I look at submission in regards to me as being an act where she comes to me as an equal and gives all of herself freely out of love, respect and trust. I don't think I could settle for less than having all of her emotionally and physically as I wouldn't settle for giving anything less than all of me, so love is most certainly involved at a very deep level, because it involves absolute trust, the breaking down of barriers and a very deep emotional and physical connection that nothing can break.

That's just me though, we all have our own ways of dealing with life and our needs. I get far too emotionally attached to even consider a casual relationship like this. It's certainly not for play and is more about the true emotional bond for me.

 

[the captians wench]

Irreverent Asshole... and Sweetheart, Darling, Dear, My Love, J___, etc. I think I've said "Sir" twice - both times when I was being somewhat chastized for something and it just slipped out.

I tend to be the same way with Jounar. He's almost always Love, or my love, my darling, on rare occations my master but that mostly comes out after I've been given or completed an assignment. "Sir" slips out with him when he's less than happy with me.

Most of the others I've played with have insisted on being called Master. The ones who insist on it, I comply with. But then there have been a couple who didn't insist on any specific lable. In that case I find, most of the time, with time I just tend to naturally slip into calling them "Sir" on a regular basis. I think that has a lot to do with the way I was raised. Sir or Ma'am is a term of respect that you show to elders, people in positions of respect (ie mom, dad, grandparents, police, customers, the boss, ect), or just some one you respect. I think these guys fall into the last cat.

I've also been known to call Jounar "wanker" on many occations *giggles*, and have said "yes sir" or "yes master" or "yes all knowing one" when I'm just being cheeky and playful.

 

[Netzach]

Very well said.

I would only add that there is actually one more "noun" defintition to the word submissive.

1. Adj submissive - A consenting act of sumission. Example: She agreed to be submissive to the Dominant's demands.

2. Noun Submissive - (By nature) "a" submissive. Example: His/Her personality, demeanor, and personhood is what makes her a submissive.

3. Noun Submissive - (By position - denotes ownership) "a" submissive. Example1: Though she is not submissive by nature, she choose to become his submissive, because she desired to submit to him. Example 2: Ryan asked Bob who it was he brought to the Munch tonight with him and he replied, "That is Sally and she is my submissive".

As you have said, sally may not be "a" submissive by nature, but because she has accepted the position of being a person's submissive, she is in fact "a" submissive.

I agree 100% with what you said, I am just expounding on it a bit. Submissive can be by Choice, by Nature or by Position. Each can be three entirely different from one another, and there can also be overlap between them.

IME, people really in agreement with the nuances of the difference are liable to transmit them. I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but I know that my Bull is "the man I'm submissive to" but not "My Dom." (...'cause he's a switch) and I am, I will bet lunch at Brasa, "submissive to me" or "my lover" for him, not "my submissive" even if I am carrying myself as one.

I've been known to eat my words before. When I try on the phrase "my Dom" in regard to this, it doesn't fit. And I think it's more my hangup about how it's inaccurate for what he is to me, not what I am to him.

I see people in leather families draw this distinction a lot in delineating - "boy butch is submissive to me, Daddy to baby diane" Adj. NOT noun.

 

[the captians wench]

IME, people really in agreement with the nuances of the difference are liable to transmit them. I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but I know that my Bull is "the man I'm submissive to" but not "My Dom." (...'cause he's a switch) and I am, I will bet lunch at Brasa, "submissive to me" or "my lover" for him, not "my submissive" even if I am carrying myself as one.

I've been known to eat my words before. When I try on the phrase "my Dom" in regard to this, it doesn't fit. And I think it's more my hangup about how it's inaccurate for what he is to me, not what I am to him.

I see people in leather families draw this distinction a lot in delineating - "boy butch is submissive to me, Daddy to baby diane" Adj. NOT noun.

my head hurts now.

 

[TreeTeal]

There is no way I would submit to just anybody. Neither should you. Being a submissive doesn't mean you throw your brain out the nearest window.

 

[Netzach]

my head hurts now.

LOL, I'm not gonna freak out about the nuances of how other people might label it, I'm just saying that there's still a slight difference in submissive as an adjective and submissive as a noun.

 

[the captians wench]

LOL, I'm not gonna freak out about the nuances of how other people might label it, I'm just saying that there's still a slight difference in submissive as an adjective and submissive as a noun.

I just keep thinking about those math word problems:

If Janie is taller than Greg, but shorter than Jill. and Jill is shorter than Bob but taller than Jim. and Jim is taller than Greg and Janie. And the tempreture on mars is -300 degrees, and the night blooming loatus is in half bloom. Then how old is Bob's mom.......

some one make it stop....please?

 

[Netzach]

I just keep thinking about those math word problems:

If Janie is taller than Greg, but shorter than Jill. and Jill is shorter than Bob but taller than Jim. and Jim is taller than Greg and Janie. And the tempreture on mars is -300 degrees, and the night blooming loatus is in half bloom. Then how old is Bob's mom.......

some one make it stop....please?

Yep, some of those families are like that, I kind of give up on remembering everyone's niche unless I know or care hugely about them.

 

[saw_man1]

A realization

Three years give or take, numerous playmates and one relationship have taught me that for me, its better with someone I know and much better with someone I like.
It's not bad with "strangers", just better when there is some connection.

 

[CutieMouse]

Three years give or take, numerous playmates and one relationship have taught me that for me, its better with someone I know and much better with someone I like.
It's not bad with "strangers", just better when there is some connection.

Yup.

Dear God J has had a *lot* of "take out" sex in his lifetime, but he had 2 rules - they never come home with him, and they don't get the benifit of his darker side. He figured out a really long time ago that tying up and flogging someone takes a deeper connection than he can get from someone he picks up at a bar...

 

[amsubone]

Normal is a relative term...

If only they were normal!

 

[SubKekiLee]

Imho

IMHO, I dont think that you can truly submit without falling in love, I fell in love with mine after only 3 months cause you open yourself up to extreme situations/trust. He (Your Dom/PYL)is your protector.. So I would think it would be difficult... not to love..

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, I'm not gonna freak out about the nuances of how other people might label it, I'm just saying that there's still a slight difference in submissive as an adjective and submissive as a noun.

Have to agree with you.

Catalina