Submission vs. Bottom

[JMohegan]

Haha........now my friend you have totally cleared up the quotation mark boondoggle.
In seriousness I did kind of think that is what you meant, but could not resist poking fun..........now that could be sadistic of me.

Poke away! Goofin' around isn't sadistic, it's just having fun.

 

[JMohegan]

See, for me, the tipping point is the sweet spot. The moment where it's not fun anymore, but maybe it will be again in a minute and the choice is to bail or keep on. This is why I love leaving everyone a safeword and an out, because watching it not get used unless the world is about to end is really a delightful process.

H, my slave, can ask me to stop any old time. And I would likely stop without one iota of shaming or worry. It's the chains in the head that are totally interesting to me.

If I was merely in pursuit of true horrid unpleasant pain I'd send them to the dentist and play with myself at the thought.

Enough with the edits, woman! I swear, you're incorrigible with this!

I'm just kidding. Sort of. At any rate, I love this edit because it puts it perfectly. "The chains in the head" is what it's all about, for me. That's the whole POINT of going beyond "pain" to pain, and why I get off on the safeword thing.

 

[Recidiva]

Haha - feel free to ID however you want!

I put quotes on "sadist" here to reference those people who get off in inflicting "pain," but not pain. "Pain" that the recipient appreciates isn't actual pain, in my book.

Okay. That's cool with me. I've pretty much tried to avoid all labels, but I like seeing the scale, and particularly how people fit/don't fit, respond/don't respond.

What about people, like me...who don't really care particularly about pain or not pain, but are happy/unhappy to move their own inner bits around to correspond to someone else's needs if that person is interesting enough to hang out with and that's what secures the hanging-out with. My willingness to do or not do something is based completely on the person who is asking and why. And again, a lot about what I want from it. A chance to watch someone dissect themselves without me lifting a finger? I'm entirely about destination, very little about what path is taken. Destination Intimacy CAN be worth a lot to me. And sometimes, once I make it there, not worth revisiting.

I think there are physical and intellectual and emotional and psychological aspects to this and those are a spectrum as well. My head's always in the game. My body's just a means to an end.

I've posted somewhere before also that pain means about nothing to me and doesn't hold any mystery, but to watch someone else figure stuff out about what it means to them can be fun.

Any pain that comes my way is always my body doing it to me, and the other person is really out of the picture other than me trying to glean why on earth they'd want to do this. Sometimes it's a good answer, sometimes it isn't.

Is there a word for that? Is it in quotes?

"INFJ"?

 

[PalmerEldritch]

Poke away! Goofin' around isn't sadistic, it's just having fun.

I have been known to be "pokistic."

I agree with the remark you made about going beyond the comfort zone for TOO LONG being a sure fire way to drive away anyone.

As we all should know, there is a line of obvious demarcation between D/s and S/M behavior and just plain old domestic abuse.

 

[wouldloveto]

To the OP:

I am pretty dominant in my relationship, but I enjoy the bottom most often. Sometimes I am even submissive to her.

Labels can be useful, but I try not to let them get in the way.

 

[JMohegan]

Okay. That's cool with me. I've pretty much tried to avoid all labels, but I like seeing the scale, and particularly how people fit/don't fit, respond/don't respond.

What about people, like me...who don't really care particularly about pain or not pain, but are happy/unhappy to move their own inner bits around to correspond to someone else's needs if that person is interesting enough to hang out with and that's what secures the hanging-out with. My willingness to do or not do something is based completely on the person who is asking and why. And again, a lot about what I want from it. A chance to watch someone dissect themselves without me lifting a finger? I'm entirely about destination, very little about what path is taken. Destination Intimacy CAN be worth a lot to me. And sometimes, once I make it there, not worth revisiting.

I think there are physical and intellectual and emotional and psychological aspects to this and those are a spectrum as well. My head's always in the game. My body's just a means to an end.

I've posted somewhere before also that pain means about nothing to me and doesn't hold any mystery, but to watch someone else figure stuff out about what it means to them can be fun.

Any pain that comes my way is always my body doing it to me, and the other person is really out of the picture other than me trying to glean why on earth they'd want to do this. Sometimes it's a good answer, sometimes it isn't.

Is there a word for that? Is it in quotes?

"INFJ"?

Most of this post is way too abstract for me. My brain just doesn't work this way. I can't answer your questions because I don't understand what you're trying to say. Also, the acronym is unfamiliar.

 

[Netzach]

If it stays "not fun" for an appreciable length of time, then they're gonna walk. Maybe not if this happens once or twice, but as a routine matter, sustained "not fun" is not sustainable.

But there *are* D-types who stop immediately when "hurts so good" ends. Even without hearing a safeword, they're just not interested in moving beyond that point. These are the "sadists" I'm talking about.

That's like walking out of Raiders of the Lost Ark before the boulder.
*doesn't compute*

 

[Homburg]

I'm just kidding. Sort of. At any rate, I love this edit because it puts it perfectly. "The chains in the head" is what it's all about, for me. That's the whole POINT of going beyond "pain" to pain, and why I get off on the safeword thing.

This is why we don't have safewords. The chains in the head concept. Safewords leave power in the hands of the bottom, at least in the eyes of both of my girls. By leaving behind those safewords, they bind themselves more tightly to me. Either one of them can ask me to stop, and I am likely to do it (and have done it multiple times), but I see a safeword as telling me to stop.

None of this is macho BS, and I do not even remotely look down on folks who use safewords. I am mentioning it because the same reasoning lead me and mine to a different conclusion, and I find it interesting.

I agree that consistently going beyond is often a way to drive people away, and I rarely do it. But, as Netzach mentioned, that wobbly point where they're not sure if it is good or not is a fun place to be. And, more often than not, those moments are reciprocally good when they example them ex post facto. It's not perfect, but it does work well for our situation.

And, again, no judgement on safewords. Getting rid of them was viv's idea initially, and I was against it. I agreed to try it, and we found both that we liked it and it worked well. Same trial situation happened with MIS. Safewords are a stunningly good idea, hands down, and "Don't try this at home," is my usual watchphrase when discussing it with people that don't do it.

 

[Recidiva]

Most of this post is way too abstract for me. My brain just doesn't work this way. I can't answer your questions because I don't understand what you're trying to say. Also, the acronym is unfamiliar.

Yeah, I get that a lot

About the acronym - that's a Myers-Briggs personality thing.

 

[Homburg]

Most of this post is way too abstract for me. My brain just doesn't work this way. I can't answer your questions because I don't understand what you're trying to say. Also, the acronym is unfamiliar.

"INFJ" refers to a result on the Myers-Briggs personality test.

I = Introversion
F = Feeling
N = Intuitive
J = Judgement

The opposites of these markers are:

E = Extroversion
T = Thinking
S = Sensing
P = Perception

If you want more info, click the link above. If you want to take a moderately short version, go here. It is an interesting test, and can really give some insight into personality type. Mine was basically spot on.

As to the rest of the post, erm, well, it was a wee bit on the obtuse side.

 

[Recidiva]

As to the rest of the post, erm, well, it was a wee bit on the obtuse side.

That's as clear as I get about the inside of my head, I guess.

 

[Netzach]

That's as clear as I get about the inside of my head, I guess.

It made sense to me except in the "what about" sense - "what about" in relation to those issues doesn't jive. Like "what about" as in "how would you label"?

Those are the complexities of my sexuality that I don't label.

 

[Recidiva]

It made sense to me except in the "what about" sense - "what about" in relation to those issues doesn't jive. Like "what about" as in "how would you label"?

Those are the complexities of my sexuality that I don't label.

That was sort of the point of the question.

But it really came from being confused between - "pain" vs pain - and me trying to define pain the word in several objective or subjective terms that are more distinct...to me anyway.

There may be people good at tying physical bondage knots, I'm good at identifying knots in the brain and they have just as many classifications and methods of recognizing and tying.

But since it's all subjective, I can't actually display someone's brain and point and say "Look. There."

And rope is less interesting. To me anyway.

 

[JMohegan]

This is why we don't have safewords. The chains in the head concept. Safewords leave power in the hands of the bottom, at least in the eyes of both of my girls. By leaving behind those safewords, they bind themselves more tightly to me. Either one of them can ask me to stop, and I am likely to do it (and have done it multiple times), but I see a safeword as telling me to stop.

None of this is macho BS, and I do not even remotely look down on folks who use safewords. I am mentioning it because the same reasoning lead me and mine to a different conclusion, and I find it interesting.

Even on a good day, metaphors are not my strong suit - so I'm not saying my interpretation is right. And all of this is subjective, clearly!

But to me, "chains in the head" = the recipient of pain has a choice. It's a reference to self binding, if you will. It gets my rocks off to know she has a choice, and chooses to let me continue.

This actually sort of is macho BS, with me. Especially in the beginning, I really got off knowing I could get women to choose to do stuff that most other guys could not. In the context of a sustained and loving relationship, it grew into a tangible representation and affirmation of a very intimate bond - and that was infinitely more important. But I'd be lying if I said the power trip/ego thing didn't still, in part, remain.

Thanks for the info on the Myers Briggs thing.

 

[badgirl_lucy]

If someone was making pronouncements that an M/s relationship can't really mean as much as a relationship of equals, because a slave is just a slave and chattel I imagine there'd be hissyfits, usually first thrown by people who "only care what Master thinks."

I'm sure you would see that dear but not from me because that would mean I would place a value on their opinion of my life, which I don't

No one can have a valid opinion of my life anymore than they can of anyone elses they don't know - it only starts to matter or cause offense when 'you' care what someone else thinks and maybe then the more valid question is; why do 'you' care? That says more about 'you' than the opinion that has been offered [in my opinion]

As I said, I think some people could do be with being more sure of whom they are and a good deal less sensitive about what anyone else thinks

 

[Homburg]

Even on a good day, metaphors are not my strong suit - so I'm not saying my interpretation is right. And all of this is subjective, clearly!

But to me, "chains in the head" = the recipient of pain has a choice. It's a reference to self binding, if you will. It gets my rocks off to know she has a choice, and chooses to let me continue.

This actually sort of is macho BS, with me. Especially in the beginning, I really got off knowing I could get women to choose to do stuff that most other guys could not. In the context of a sustained and loving relationship, it grew into a tangible representation and affirmation of a very intimate bond - and that was infinitely more important. But I'd be lying if I said the power trip/ego thing didn't still, in part, remain.

Yeah, I feel the same basic motivation. I get a cheap, tawdry thrill when people I know hear about things I've done and are stunned that I did them. That I convinced one or more women to go along with whatever twisted thing I wanted to do. I dig that.

Oddly enough, desire and motivation are SUPREMELY important to me. The moment I get that hint of "I don't want this," I'm done. There is a basal level of it that is normal. No matter how maso someone is, the body and brain will rebel somewhat against the trauma provided. But when I get that nagging feeling that the object of my affection is hating what is going on, tired of it, just waiting for it to end, and that is not my intention for her to feel, I end it. More than once I've halted a scene in the middle, when I am perfectly aroused, because I am irritated at the emotional energy being displayed.

I am, as a result, more likely to make them beg for whatever it is, and get them to admit that they want it. I enjoy the show of desperate need.

Thanks for the info on the Myers Briggs thing.

Welcome. It is interesting stuff.

 

[intothewoods]

Nah. The D is NOT always right. He just GETS his way, whether it is right or wrong.

One of my peeves with the D being right or wrong, is not about right or wrong. I can accept the D being wrong and still wanting his way and I'll do it his wrong way. I just want the D to own up to his wanting it the wrong way.
I do not expect the D to be omniscient and omnipotent ... I just expect him to own up to his own desires, right or wrongs, and to his own fuck ups.
Not need to be apologetic; a "I want it this way, fuck it if it is selfish" is good enough for me.

I will, however remind the D that it was HIS decision, if he ever complains about the consequences of it in the future ...

Yes, you're right. I mean, that I find hardwood floors attractive is really not right or wrong, and that the dogs may slip or just not like wood stairs is not a contradiction to that.

I have mostly carpet because M did the move while I was out of town on some giant prodomination sojourn in NYC. Do I like carpet? Fuck, no. He prefers carpet. He *knew* I like hardwood and the little shit still went ahead. In the battle of "is this minor thing going to ruin your day every day" I'm just a less sensitive and more flexible person. Not having carpet will make him more apeshit every day. Frankly, he's the one who vacuums, so mazel tov, vacuum, is how I felt about it.

Doesn't mean I don't like chaining him to the foot of my bed, edging him to not quite orgasm and laughing my ass off and going to sleep.

I don't see this as some great evidence that I'm not in charge enough. I think of it as evidence that I can put my control freak to sleep at least some of the time.

I really don't mind if he makes his case, carries on and lobbies heavily if it's a really big deal. Unless it's a majorly big deal to me, there's no point making law out of it. Knowing I can if I want is satisfying enough.

Because I do NOT want to wake up five years from now when I'm yet even less exciting and sexy and new and face the million and one petty resentments I wrote checks out on.

That you can is the bottom line. He is the same way, although if I uncarpeted the stairs while he was gone he would be seriously pissed. But that line's been clearly drawn at this point too.

For me, and this is referencing the other thread where this is being discussed, it's a soft thing where I get the feeling that I'm seeing more "No" than "Yes" and more "I want" than "You want". That is when I wonder if the person is submissive, or just has submissive-ish fantasies that they want me to work out. Or, as Netz says, they have a script.

Limits are fine and good, but when I have more limits on that checklist than tolerated activites, we have problems. I do not do a la carte unless it is a play partner thing.
<snip>

I wasn't really calling anyone out from that thread. It just got me to wonder about submitting and having a preference. In terms of negotating play, whether in the context of a new relationship or outside of a relationship, there is usually a list, and how it is presented can seem more or less submissive, but it's still there. We're really not talking about D/s so much in that context, except to the extent there is a grey zone and you are pushed there.

I love this example, and here's why. In my view, D/s is defined in those moments when the participants disagree or differ markedly in terms of personal preference.

If a D beats on an s, who's loving it and going "oooooh hurts so good," that's not submitting - that's just everybody having a good time. If the D says: "No pig products will ever be brought into this house," and the s is already vegetarian, has there been any deferring to anyone else? Nope.

I agree with MM on the hardwood floor/dog issue. I wouldn't mind hearing your preferences, but there's really nothing you could say to change my mind. Because I've lived with dogs for my entire life, and I know what they like & dislike.

If you managed to convince me that hardwood floors are really, really important to you personally, I might compromise and say something like: Okay, get a giant area rug for your favorite room and leave a foot or two at the perimeter; the dog won't trot across the edges anyway.

But we're talking one, maybe two conversations here. Because I really, really, REALLY despise nagging, whining, bugging, push back, and so on. When I decide, I decide. It's done.

If I sound like a control freak, well - hello - yes, and I've never pretended to be otherwise. The good news for anybody moving in with me is that the list of things I want to control this way is actually very small. Pick the family room color scheme, choose the dishes, plant your favorite flowers in the garden, arrange the stuff on the walls to suit your fancy - all this is stuff about which I simply don't care.

This is pretty much where he's coming from. The matter has been decided. And yeah, this is one of the things that he has put his foot down about, but it's not like he cares about the color of the walls or various other questions of design.

 

[intothewoods]

I have to say, the feelings are never as simple as ooh baby hurt me so good, or fuck this is terrible I hate it. Or even, forcing a vegetarian to cook chicken every night versus telling a vegetarian that she is not allowed to cook pork (something meaningless). There's a lot of grey area, and some inner - well, not conflict, but gnashing of mental teeth perhaps.

If he said to me today, okay honey, you can have hardwood floors, I would not be happy. That's not him, that's not what I signed up for. And, sometimes taking some pain because it makes your PYL happy in turn makes you happy. If I hate it but love that it pleases him, am I less submissive? No of course not, though relationships differ. Some PYLs get off on turning pyls into a wreck (and plenty of pyls are manipulative asswipes - just throwing that out as an example). You can be in pain and get off at the same time too. I think that whole juxtaposition is part of what drives me.

 

[JMohegan]

This is pretty much where he's coming from. The matter has been decided. And yeah, this is one of the things that he has put his foot down about, but it's not like he cares about the color of the walls or various other questions of design.

Okay, so my advice (not that you asked for it, but still! ) is to focus on the walls not the floors.

As for your subsequent post - you're absolutely right; we're oversimplifying greatly here.

 

[intothewoods]

Okay, so my advice (not that you asked for it, but still! ) is to focus on the walls not the floors.

As for your subsequent post - you're absolutely right; we're oversimplifying greatly here.

I'm ordering tile for the bathroom floor as we speak!

I realize I did just post about twenty times on the hardwood floors, but I swear it's not that painful or "painful" to accept them. It's just a good example to me of the mundane every day stuff.


ETA - mother fucker you said walls. Well, I picked a paint color too. We've actually got home improvement projects coming out of our ears.

 

[rida]

I have read some of the posts on the subject at hand and it is obvious that some here might get touchy about certain labels to different relationships.
Keeping that in mind I am going to paste a couple of articles below.

*snip*

Hope you enjoy the re-prints of the articles I have found them endlessly fascinating and interesting.

Thank you for the articles.
I remember reading the second one once and finding interesting, although somehow in its desire to be all encompassing still manages to be just an approximation. So, why not use the simple words/definitions and put your own twist on them? But I still think it is good to get you to think about the degree of pyls.

If it stays "not fun" for an appreciable length of time, then they're gonna walk. Maybe not if this happens once or twice, but as a routine matter, sustained "not fun" is not sustainable.

But there *are* D-types who stop immediately when "hurts so good" ends. Even without hearing a safeword, they're just not interested in moving beyond that point. These are the "sadists" I'm talking about.

Pain always hurt. And not in the "pain" sense.
So I find the PYL wanting to only play in the limits of "it hurt so good" to be annoying: isn't the PYL's prerogative to push and poke me to go where he wants once I've accepted to submit? So freaking do it!
Me having a safeword should give the PYL enough freedom to know that I will stop him when I really really cannot go any further (and it gives me the freedom to vocalize my whole range of pleads and "no"s and cries).

....

Oddly enough, desire and motivation are SUPREMELY important to me. The moment I get that hint of "I don't want this," I'm done. There is a basal level of it that is normal. No matter how maso someone is, the body and brain will rebel somewhat against the trauma provided. But when I get that nagging feeling that the object of my affection is hating what is going on, tired of it, just waiting for it to end, and that is not my intention for her to feel, I end it. More than once I've halted a scene in the middle, when I am perfectly aroused, because I am irritated at the emotional energy being displayed.

I am, as a result, more likely to make them beg for whatever it is, and get them to admit that they want it. I enjoy the show of desperate need.

I found the above bolded part interesting as it often happens with Hubby. May I ask how do you feel when that happens? Do you resent that they do not feel the way you wish they would?

 

[ecstaticsub]

I have to say, the feelings are never as simple as ooh baby hurt me so good, or fuck this is terrible I hate it. Or even, forcing a vegetarian to cook chicken every night versus telling a vegetarian that she is not allowed to cook pork (something meaningless). There's a lot of grey area, and some inner - well, not conflict, but gnashing of mental teeth perhaps.

If he said to me today, okay honey, you can have hardwood floors, I would not be happy. That's not him, that's not what I signed up for. And, sometimes taking some pain because it makes your PYL happy in turn makes you happy. If I hate it but love that it pleases him, am I less submissive? No of course not, though relationships differ. Some PYLs get off on turning pyls into a wreck (and plenty of pyls are manipulative asswipes - just throwing that out as an example). You can be in pain and get off at the same time too. I think that whole juxtaposition is part of what drives me.

I agree totally with the bolded part. Pain and the emotions that follow are never simple. I agree with Rida that pain always hurts. Pain itself (for me) never "hurts so good" but depending on the situation it is the feeling afterwards that keeps me coming back.

Sometimes pain energizes me, sometimes it arouses me, sometimes I endure it just because he wants to deal it out.

Then there is a pain that I experienced for the first time a couple days ago. I am not in a M/s relationship but for the times we are together in person I don't use a safeword. I know if I really had to end something I could just simply ask and he would stop immediately out of concern and love.

The situation came up where it wasn't suppose to hurt, it was anal sex that felt more like anal rape. It was emotional, forceful and hurt way more than usual. I was scared of internal damage and crying and saying it hurt. The thing is I didn't want it to stop. The emotional energy between us was too good to want it to end even though the pain continued for well over an hour.

I am still thinking about that experience, but the point is pain can be so very complicated.

 

[rida]

I agree totally with the bolded part. Pain and the emotions that follow are never simple. I agree with Rida that pain always hurts. Pain itself (for me) never "hurts so good" but depending on the situation it is the feeling afterwards that keeps me coming back.

Sometimes pain energizes me, sometimes it arouses me, sometimes I endure it just because he wants to deal it out.

Then there is a pain that I experienced for the first time a couple days ago. I am not in a M/s relationship but for the times we are together in person I don't use a safeword. I know if I really had to end something I could just simply ask and he would stop immediately out of concern and love.

The situation came up where it wasn't suppose to hurt, it was anal sex that felt more like anal rape. It was emotional, forceful and hurt way more than usual. I was scared of internal damage and crying and saying it hurt. The thing is I didn't want it to stop. The emotional energy between us was too good to want it to end even though the pain continued for well over an hour.

I am still thinking about that experience, but the point is pain can be so very complicated.

It is so much more complex, isn't it?
Sounds like you had an incredible time.

It reminds me of something that happened not long ago.

After expressing that I don't understand why I go back for more, if not because I love to please him (the Sadist), he dry raped my ass as he always does and I was crying and whimpering like I always do.

He chuckled and said "it hurts to please me, doesn't it".

I melted then and there.

 

[Homburg]

I found the above bolded part interesting as it often happens with Hubby. May I ask how do you feel when that happens? Do you resent that they do not feel the way you wish they would?

Resentment is a pretty good description, yeah. It is a lack of engagement, and it aggravates me. I want them to want and need what I am going to do, or at least need to please me enough that it results in the same thing. When that lack of engagement is present, their need to please me is obviously not there in sufficient amount.

 

[rida]

Resentment is a pretty good description, yeah. It is a lack of engagement, and it aggravates me. I want them to want and need what I am going to do, or at least need to please me enough that it results in the same thing. When that lack of engagement is present, their need to please me is obviously not there in sufficient amount.

Thank you for your asnwer

I understand the part where their lack of engagement is seen as a lack of desire to please you. But doesn't be a PYL also mean that you do/take what you want whether they enjoy it or not? And at times, the same activity may not cause the same reaction and the lack of engagement might have nothing to do with not wanting to please you: would you rather they find it in themselves to act it out?

I'm sorry if I am coming out a bit harsh on this. It is something I am struggling with myself. There are times that the same activity repeated a different time does not make me react the same way, or the exact way I know would please Hubby. I think it is better to me to be honest with the way I am feeling and not act the part. However I have wondered at times whether it might be better to do so than having to deal with the resentment for me not providing the experience he was hoping for ...