The Allure of the Forbidden: How willing are you to use taboo as a driver of erotic tension?

[nice90sguy]

This thread should have been called "Taboo or not taboo?"

 

[gunhilltrain]

If you renamed it Non Consent Role Play, then people wouldn't enjoy it as much. That's the whole point. Entertainment. People don't really want to be raped, but they want to fantasize about really being raped. But if you put a nice tidy box around it to make it crystal clear that it's not REALLY nonconsent, then you take away the fantasy.

It get that it's fantasy because I'd guess that the vast majority of people who are raped don't change their minds. But I also get that fantasy plays a big role on Lit. You could argue that all fiction is mostly a fantasy, except for those that are based on autobiography. Fear of Flying must be about two-thirds true if you compare it to her later autobiography.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I agree. I love the tension generated when you pass the taboo line. But my own personal squick rears up over incest. I don't care for it; the reality of it transcends any writing value to me. But race or a loving wife getting a little too loving. Bring it on!

Squick only applies to other people's interests and fetishes. If it's your own fantasy, it's all good.

 

[SimonDoom]

I didn't say it wasn't still taboo for some, I said it shouldn't be. And good for her.

"Shouldn't" is problematic, when it comes to erotica. I think it's unhelpful. Psychology is what it is. We can want it to be something else, but that won't make it so. There's usefulness, in my opinion, to having a space where the weirdness of human psychology can run free, without shame or or guilt or judgment. I see a place like Literotica as like that.

There are white women who fantasize about being fucked by black men.

There are black men who fantasize about fucking white women.

And, perhaps most curiously of all, there appears to be a large audience of white men who fantasize about black men fucking white women. That's where the money comes from for this category of porn, right?

It is what it is. There's no point in denying or shaming it.

Does the indulgence of this fantasy bleed into the real world and affect how people behave and reinforce bad, racist behaviors?

I don't know. It's a hard question to test the truth of. But I doubt it, to any appreciable degree. And I suspect to the extent there is some very minor bad impact it may well be offset by the cathartic value of indulging in fantasy in one's mind rather than living it in the real world.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I've read it and watched it, and it is one fucked up movie. But, of course, I loved it.

It was directed by Mary Harron, who also directed I Shot Andy Warhol. I think the latter film wasn't fucked-up enough.

 

[lc69hunter]

"Shouldn't" is problematic, when it comes to erotica. I think it's unhelpful. Psychology is what it is. We can want it to be something else, but that won't make it so. There's usefulness, in my opinion, to having a space where the weirdness of human psychology can run free, without shame or or guilt or judgment. I see a place like Literotica as like that.

There are white women who fantasize about being fucked by black men.

There are black men who fantasize about fucking white women.

And, perhaps most curiously of all, there appears to be a large audience of white men who fantasize about black men fucking white women. That's where the money comes from for this category of porn, right?

It is what it is. There's no point in denying or shaming it.

Does the indulgence of this fantasy bleed into the real world and affect how people behave and reinforce bad, racist behaviors?

I don't know. It's a hard question to test the truth of. But I doubt it, to any appreciable degree. And I suspect to the extent there is some very minor bad impact it may well be offset by the cathartic value of indulging in fantasy in one's mind rather than living it in the real world.

Neither of us actually had that as a fantasy. We just both enjoyed it whenever it did happen, as we both had other lovers.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It was directed by Mary Harron, who also directed I Shot Andy Warhol. I think the latter film wasn't fucked-up enough.

Never saw the later one, might have to check it out.

 

[MillieDynamite]

"Shouldn't" is problematic, when it comes to erotica. I think it's unhelpful. Psychology is what it is. We can want it to be something else, but that won't make it so. There's usefulness, in my opinion, to having a space where the weirdness of human psychology can run free, without shame or or guilt or judgment. I see a place like Literotica as like that.

There are white women who fantasize about being fucked by black men.

There are black men who fantasize about fucking white women.

And, perhaps most curiously of all, there appears to be a large audience of white men who fantasize about black men fucking white women. That's where the money comes from for this category of porn, right?

It is what it is. There's no point in denying or shaming it.

Does the indulgence of this fantasy bleed into the real world and affect how people behave and reinforce bad, racist behaviors?

I don't know. It's a hard question to test the truth of. But I doubt it, to any appreciable degree. And I suspect to the extent there is some very minor bad impact it may well be offset by the cathartic value of indulging in fantasy in one's mind rather than living it in the real world.

Um, I don't write cuck shit anymore.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Never saw the later one, might have to check it out.

Sort of interesting, about the only decent performance that Lili Taylor ever gave. Strangely, Harron pulled her punches with that one. That was what inspired me to write a four-part series of how it should have gone. Boy, did that bomb, but I still like it anyway.

 

[EmilyMiller]

What do you mean, not actual horses? A fantasy about horses? Two guys in a horse suit?

Accepted by Laurel today via an early submission. So all will be revealed on May 25th.

Em

 

[gunhilltrain]

"Shouldn't" is problematic, when it comes to erotica. I think it's unhelpful. Psychology is what it is. We can want it to be something else, but that won't make it so. There's usefulness, in my opinion, to having a space where the weirdness of human psychology can run free, without shame or or guilt or judgment. I see a place like Literotica as like that.

There are white women who fantasize about being fucked by black men.

There are black men who fantasize about fucking white women.

And, perhaps most curiously of all, there appears to be a large audience of white men who fantasize about black men fucking white women. That's where the money comes from for this category of porn, right?

It is what it is. There's no point in denying or shaming it.

Does the indulgence of this fantasy bleed into the real world and affect how people behave and reinforce bad, racist behaviors?

I don't know. It's a hard question to test the truth of. But I doubt it, to any appreciable degree. And I suspect to the extent there is some very minor bad impact it may well be offset by the cathartic value of indulging in fantasy in one's mind rather than living it in the real world.

I'm sure that there are Korean-American guys who think about Dominican ladies, or even date them. And there are guys from Yemen who marry women from Thailand. Especially in New York, truly a melting pot.

 

[Andrew1968]

It’s the desire, the hunger, of older women which is the so-called taboo, the so-called forbidden, which drives many of my stories. There’s nothing more erotic and arousing than an older woman’s desire and hunger for pleasure and power, as far as I’m concerned. It’s very seductive.

Ideally, there will be some culturally created/religiously validated constraint which an older woman will break through, such as the incest taboo, or the monogamous marriage, or the patriarchal power structure, in order to satisfy her desire, her hunger.

I imagine that a much younger man or woman is the object of such an older woman’s desire and hunger. You can make the younger person a son to a mother, or a gorgeous young black guy to a white hot-wife, etc. It all boils down to the same thing: an older woman’s desire and hunger, and her preparedness to break through the constraint, and take what she wants without any guilt or qualms. It's the will to do that which interests me.

I don’t usually imagine that an older woman seeking pleasure and power will ever use physical violence. Rather, the taboo consists in the use of superior intellect and game playing skills to navigate a way through the constraints, so she can have exactly what she wants, with minimal damage to herself, along the way.

I’m always pleasantly surprised at how angry/enraged some males get when it comes to these taboo/forbidden themes.

 

[SexyGeorge]

Love your thoughts on this. Honestly I think I am always pushing that line because taboo is so interesting to write. Not only just because it's taboo, but like you said, the conflict of the characters in that situation. Pushing the lines honestly I feel like puts more at risk in the story, more tension to build.

It's hard to stray from it and I often get in trouble (ratings wise) because I insert small taboos or themes not in the main stream into otherwise innocuous stories.innocuous

Fascinating chat but what kind of taboo turns you on?

 

[intim8]

So where do you fall in your willingness to use the allure of the forbidden? Use it all the time? Wont touch it with a ten foot pole? Might do some kinds but never, ever some other kinds?

I'm pretty much against gratuitous anything in a story. Sex, violence, happiness, whatever it is. Even here, I try not to include gratuitous sex, but it happens. Taboo things are something I'll use when necessary, but I generally steer away from it. OTOH, the definition of taboo is highly circumstantial. Missionary sex is hardly taboo, but it is if it's two high school kids sneaking out one night while her parents are asleep. At least it was, back in the day.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm so jaded when it comes to taboo. Taboo means so much more than just incest, yet the majority of taboo fans think that it's only incest - "you say you like taboo but hate incest, taboo IS incest! wtf??" - I've been told more than once. And most of the rest are really only interested in incest and expect incest. Taboo is so overrun by incest that I'm just pretty much sick of all the other taboos too. Fuck it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If you renamed it Non Consent Role Play, then people wouldn't enjoy it as much. That's the whole point. Entertainment. People don't really want to be raped, but they want to fantasize about really being raped. But if you put a nice tidy box around it to make it crystal clear that it's not REALLY nonconsent, then you take away the fantasy.

Consensual non-con is just a legal disclaimer. The site doesn't want to get into legal trouble if anyone accuses lit of promoting rape, they can just trot out the first C in cnc and it's (ironic) rule.

 

[AchtungNight]

I personally find it more interesting to write stories where the erotic magnetism reaches past taboo lines. But in related threads it seems clear many authors rather not go there, either because their squicks tell them there is a good reason the taboo lines are there, or because they are unable or unwilling to admit certain unspoken taboo lines are there. Though I like to point out some of the emblematic romances of all time resort to this device unabashedly: Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde, etc.

In my own writing interest I recognize three recurring forms of allure of the forbidden. Perhaps because all three provide perfect set ups for tease and denial situations, which is a kink present in all my stories.

Incest stories, which is of course a top theme among Lit readers, even if a number of AH authors squick on it. I think there are other appeals to incest other than the allure of the forbidden. But yeah, if some poor sap lusts after his mother, or sister, or daughter, you immediately have an interesting and intense inner conflict between what he wants and what he knows he is allowed to have, at least on a sustainable basis.

Other man's wife stories. Though of course infidelity is another top Lit readers theme, this is different that your typical cuckold or even bull stories. The distribution of who is victim and who is villain is different. Here the victim is the man who lusts after another man's wife, and the villain is said wife that toys with that man. Notice the details of that dynamic differ if the husband is a random stranger, a best friend, or a worst enemy of his wife's suitor. Yet again there is immediate interesting and intense inner conflict.

Social privilege/underprivilege stories. Perhaps have the highest squick factor as many are uncomfortable even facing the reality of privilege/underprivilege boundaries. Also may have the smallest, and yet at the same time quite dedicated, audience. Yet even Disney has tackled it several times (think Lady and the Tramp for example). Privilege boundaries may be drawn based on wealth, race, legal rights, and other matters, and often several such matters at the same time.

There are other examples of the allure of the forbidden of course, and a story can include multiple such elements at the same time. The reason I am thinking about, for example, is I am currently writing and editing a middle chapter of a femdom romance between a rich legitimate sister, and her poor illegitimate brother, diving into both the first and third type above.

So where do you fall in your willingness to use the allure of the forbidden? Use it all the time? Wont touch it with a ten foot pole? Might do some kinds but never, ever some other kinds?

My taboos depend on my characters. They all have certain things they just plain won’t do.

Doug Ramsay is fine with playing around with just about any sexy lady not closely related to him. He just requires her consent and privacy. And if she’s married it better be open. Otherwise boundaries are respected. He’s not into men, though he is willing to team up with another guy to please a woman as long as his male partner’s attention remains on her.

Lisa Coleman is glad to indulge in bisexual swinging as long as she is respected and comfortable. She finds high heels, anal sex, and anyone who doesn’t help her achieve a positive sexual experience not to her liking. She’s had enough of such things. Her only sexual partners in her family are her husband, younger sister, and a few in-laws. She has a large family but isn’t attracted to everyone. Get used to disappointment with this princess bride.

The only complete slut in my fictional universe is Clarke. Oh wait, he respects the boundary of consent too. And he’s a fifty something black guy and retired special forces officer with an average dick, so not everyone’s into him.

 

[SimonDoom]

Consensual non-con is just a legal disclaimer. The site doesn't want to get into legal trouble if anyone accuses lit of promoting rape, they can just trot out the first C in cnc and it's (ironic) rule.

It's not a legal disclaimer because the site doesn't use that term or promote the category with that term. The description for the category is merely "Fantasies of control." "Consensual non-consent" is a spin that authors and readers have put on the category, and I think it's an inaccurate term for most of the stories I've read there.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

It's not a legal disclaimer because the site doesn't use that term or promote the category with that term. The description for the category is merely "Fantasies of control." "Consensual non-consent" is a spin that authors and readers have put on the category, and I think it's an inaccurate term for most of the stories I've read there.

If it rape wasn't illegal the category would just be called rape/non-consent. it's a disclaimer, nothing more.

 

[SimonDoom]

If it rape wasn't illegal the category would just be called rape/non-consent. it's a disclaimer, nothing more.

What "disclaimer" are you referring to? There is no disclaimer. The site does not use the term "consensual nonconsent." The category incorporates stories where sex happens under conditions of reluctance and where it is clearly nonconsensual.

Legality is not an issue here. While rape is illegal, stories about rape are not illegal. You can watch TV shows about rape. Game of Thrones featured rape scenes. I'm sure the site is not at all concerned about whether the story content in this category is legal or not, because it clearly is.

 

[Duleigh]

I'm so jaded when it comes to taboo. Taboo means so much more than just incest,

I agree, I like to use age difference and racial difference, I even went with the ULTIMATE taboo

She: White, female, blond, athletic, Texan, USAF Captain B-52 pilot
He: White, male, brunette, athletic, Texan, USAF Sergeant B-52 bomb loader

I know, it's shocking. Their new commander was freaked out, like ewww but you know, opposites attract.

 

[MillieDynamite]

In the movie Never Say Never Again, their version of Q (named Algernon) says something to the effect, "Now that you're back, double07, I hope we're in for some gratuitous sex and violence."

I'm pretty much against gratuitous anything in a story. Sex, violence, happiness, whatever it is. Even here, I try not to include gratuitous sex, but it happens. Taboo things are something I'll use when necessary, but I generally steer away from it. OTOH, the definition of taboo is highly circumstantial. Missionary sex is hardly taboo, but it is if it's two high school kids sneaking out one night while her parents are asleep. At least it was, back in the day.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

What "disclaimer" are you referring to? There is no disclaimer. The site does not use the term "consensual nonconsent." The category incorporates stories where sex happens under conditions of reluctance and where it is clearly nonconsensual.

Legality is not an issue here. While rape is illegal, stories about rape are not illegal. You can watch TV shows about rape. Game of Thrones featured rape scenes. I'm sure the site is not at all concerned about whether the story content in this category is legal or not, because it clearly is.

You sure told me. (rolleyes)

 

[MillieDynamite]

Rape is a trope as old as time. It's also a crime as old time as well. Though, at times, it hasn't been considered a crime. Some of the myths of the past, you can't rape your wife, you can't rape a prostitute. Sex with a minor isn't rape if she wants it. If she's dressed like that, it isn't rape. If she lets you in her apartment, it isn't rape.

What "disclaimer" are you referring to? There is no disclaimer. The site does not use the term "consensual nonconsent." The category incorporates stories where sex happens under conditions of reluctance and where it is clearly nonconsensual.

Legality is not an issue here. While rape is illegal, stories about rape are not illegal. You can watch TV shows about rape. Game of Thrones featured rape scenes. I'm sure the site is not at all concerned about whether the story content in this category is legal or not, because it clearly is.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've even seen this insidious shit in the BNWO or NBWO stuff, "you can't rape white women. It's only reparations."