The blank check of consent

[h_i_s]

.......... And this is the kind of full, complete submissiveness that I could never see myself doing. I am in awe at you and at your relationship, and I love hearing about a D/s relationship that is so (complete? solid? bonded?) that it can be taken to that depth. That is the kind of thing my fantasies are made of, but I know I do not possess the ability to do it in reality.


Heather

Thank you ... and it is not always 'easy'. It's always complete, solid and bonded.... and it is not without it's tests at times.
We do not argue because it is not how we do things. nIt's never my place to argue with Him outright. i AM allowed to state that i disagree or think differently or hold a different opinion than His. THIS is where it all stops being so easy.
The hardest thing i have learned to do is to accept that He is right..... and to accept that if i disagree and He finds no reason to adjust His thinking or opinion or decision......... He is STILL right.
It's very easy to obey. The challenge shows it's face in the form of the need to accept and trust.

Not trying to convert you here, not puffing up my chest either..... i just feel it is important that others understand that it's not ALL fantasy and romance. Sometimes, from where i sit, it can be the absolute opposite of what fairy tales are made of..... i'm simply lucky enough to have a Master who is so wonderful that even in the less than 'best of times'.. He makes me LOVE to obey.

 

[catalina_francisco]

NOT directed at anyone. This thread had me thinking and since i'm drinking my coffee and have the time, and am not yet awake enough to feel like starting on my work for the day...i'm going to get a bit long winded.... just for the sake of tossing some thoughts out there to those who maynot have gone this route yet, in their own thinking.........

The answer to why and the reason for many having this block of understanding of how another in a D/s relationship can claim to have no limits is simple: Far too LIMITED in their thinking to begin with. Far too limited in their abilities to be open minded enough to understand that there are a million and one ways and combinations which make up all the million and one ways in which people LIVE and define their relationships.

The way i see it: In regard to lifestyles and relationships, if you can imagine it, someone somewhere out there is probably LIVING it.

Right now, the relationship between INSIDEYOURMIND and i has grown in a direction and to an extreme which no longer allows it to fit many of the standards. We are more likely outside of the loop than in when compared to most who participate in discussions like the ones on these boards (not to say that we are better or less than... am just clarifying that we are a bit different and can't fill the one size fits all examples AT ALL) As a result, i have grown to love the acronym: PYL . When i first started exchanging ideas on these boards a few years ago, for me 'pyl' referred to titles and D/s orientation. Even that has taken on a new extreme for He and i because now PYL applies to the WHOLE PICTURE ... and not just the charactors involved. We won't refer to ourselves as D/s... haven't in a good amount of time now.... we are better described as O/p as in Owner/property or M/s as in Master/slave.

He doesn't allow me to limit His use of me. By His decision i am not allowed limits, i'm not allowed to tell Him 'NO' (if fear grips be VERY deeply.. i'm allowed to state that i 'can't', at which point he MIGHT decide to stop or adjust whatever..... and He usually chooses NOT TO). i don't have limits. HE is the one who has and decides the limits. They are not even mine to claim. i do not get to set nor am i allowed to pick and choose limits.

We don't fit the description of TPE. When applied to our relationship that acronym doesn't fit. We do not exchange power. He took the power (with my consent, of course) about 3 years ago and has held that ball in His court ever since. We do not have a power exchange because it always stays with Him, it's not anything which we share or take turns with.

It would be more fitting to say that we entered into a relationship of which an instance of absolute surrendered authority had taken place and continues. He has the authority to do whatever He decides serves His and our interests well... period. i have the authority to obey Him and respect whatever decisions He makes for Himself and us. (And .. worth noting: not a doormat, not a robot... because in His opinion i am simply a very respectful and obedient and for those very reasons, a very valuable piece of property).

It's so much easier to understand each other when we are willing to accept and tolerate differences rather than deny them all together. It makes for a better time too. That's just how i see it.... that's what works for me (most days .. heh).

We live our life the same from your post except for us TPE is not about a continuous state in that the power is being exchanged in an ongoing process, which I think is where most people have a problem agreeing it is real. For us it means I chose to exchange my power for his control and ownership of me in a no limits relationship..IOW, the TPE refers to the fact I did exchange my power for something else more so than thinking it means an interchange of power going back and forth. I had power, I just chose to give it away...from there I no longer possessed power. Just another perspective on sematics which comes down to the same meaning in terms of the basis our relationships exist on.

I'm not sure I think of our way as being outside the loop, though it is a framework which is not as popular as some others but still shares areas of similarities which do not prevent us from being part of conversations which are not about exact duplicate models (every relationship is differnt anyway because it invloves differnt personalities etc.)...lol, I might be getting on, but I can still remember the early steps, the stage of moving from vanilla to recognition I needed something else, then taking those first tentative steps into that world which lead me to where I am now and where I will be in the future...and there are always going to be areas of commonality.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

there is a difference between abuse and Dominance. if He were to abuse you i would think that would fall outside the realm of D/s. there are enough abusers out there who hide behind the title of "Dominant" i don't care if it's a TPE or not, abuse is abuse and NO ONE has the right to abuse anyone. when i gave up control to my Master i gave it to Him trusting Him not to abuse that power, if He were to abuse me and then use the excuse that He is Master and i am slave i would have to tell Him where to shove it. maybe this comes from me being in an abusive relationship for more than 10 years, and feeling like i deserved it because he was the man and whatever he wanted to do to me i should just accept it and move on, i'm not that person anymore, and i've handed over control of my life to this Man, if He were to abuse the power He has over me, He would NOT be in within His rights as my Master, He would be an asshat...plain and simple.

I guess this is where I see a difference between being a slave in a M/s or D/s relationship, and one where it is TPE because for us, there isn't really a way to abuse. Not because I have limits, or because he wouldn't do it as he has on occasion done things which most here would call abuse, but that is why you need to think hard before taking that step over the TPE line. Once you have, you have no more power to exert and not up to me to decide what he can and can't do and call him on it. I might let him know how I feel, I might show very much how much I am not enjoying it, but it isn't for me to judge his behaviour and reward or punish him for it. When I first stepped into this arrangement, he had limits which we both felt were OK, limits I didn't see personally as a must for me, but those limits were then his to change for both of us and over time he has...some are still in the realm of what I would have found OK before, some are not, but it is out of my hands and I accept that. It isn't abuse, because I made a well informed choice to consent.

Catalina

 

[FurryFury]

.......... And this is the kind of full, complete submissiveness that I could never see myself doing. I am in awe at you and at your relationship, and I love hearing about a D/s relationship that is so (complete? solid? bonded?) that it can be taken to that depth. That is the kind of thing my fantasies are made of, but I know I do not possess the ability to do it in reality.


Heather

I don't think that very many possess the will to do this 100% in RL but yes, it does make for a great fantasy.

Fury

 

[h_i_s]

..........it has always been kind of the difference between being a submissive and being a slave. At least that is what I have always thought.

Thanks

Not a problem and you're quite welcome.... and thank you for saying....
For us, in this relationship it has always been the defining difference and why i identify best with the label of slave. Though took me a couple of years to figure out exactly what that difference is.... mainly because the past coupleof years have been ones during which i have grown and evolved a bit in my beliefs, my thinking, and how i serve Him (i hope ).
Many have decided that the slave vs submissive topic and the differences between the two is a silly debate at best and many insist that there is no difference. i know what the difference is for me. i won't hyjack this thread topic though.... i'll save it for the next slave vs sub thread or something.

 

[h_i_s]

We live our life the same from your post except for us TPE is not about a continuous state in that the power is being exchanged in an ongoing process, which I think is where most people have a problem agreeing it is real. For us it means I chose to exchange my power for his control and ownership of me in a no limits relationship..IOW, the TPE refers to the fact I did exchange my power for something else more so than thinking it means an interchange of power going back and forth. I had power, I just chose to give it away...from there I no longer possessed power. Just another perspective on sematics which comes down to the same meaning in terms of the basis our relationships exist on.

I'm not sure I think of our way as being outside the loop, though it is a framework which is not as popular as some others but still shares areas of similarities which do not prevent us from being part of conversations which are not about exact duplicate models (every relationship is differnt anyway because it invloves differnt personalities etc.)...lol, I might be getting on, but I can still remember the early steps, the stage of moving from vanilla to recognition I needed something else, then taking those first tentative steps into that world which lead me to where I am now and where I will be in the future...and there are always going to be areas of commonality.

Catalina

One thing we have always agreed on, Catalina... the relationships which each of us are in are very similar in structure and dynamic. i have a difficult time trying to even recall a time or instance or subject which left you and i in disagreement.
This subject is not so different in that respect. i see your points. i think you understand where i come from with mine, as well.
i could apply the TPE acronym to the relationahip between INSIDEYOURMIND and myself and have in the past. The word exchange is not the only one i have issue with. It's the word 'power' mostly. I could like the phrase 'exchange of authority' a whole lot easier. i can picture those who may be new to all of this trying to find themselves, and where they fit... struggling to get it straight in their head just how a person can exachange total power and not be suddenly transformed into the infamous 'doormat' or 'robot'. i understand that a title or an acronym can only offer a glimpse into what makes any relationship what it is. i also understand that the labels and titles and acronyms serve as a decent starting point or very basic explaination of what the relationship is or is not.
i don't care for the word Total as part of the acronym for which i identify.... it's fitting but leaves a lot to be desired as far as really summing it all up precisely. It means ALL but may leave some wondering 'For how long?' .... example: Some enjoy limited servitude as slaves.. meaning perhaps that they will be someone's slave for a defined period of time. ... where the exchange of authority is 100% but for only a day or an evening or a week or a month etc ect.

For myself though, i'd prefer the acronym ASA for Absolute Surrender of Authority... or ATA ...or ACA... Absolute Taking or Absolute Claim of Authority..... AAA could work as Absolute Aquired Authority .. but it would be confused with the 'Triple A' road service that many over here subscribe to.
Absolute by definition means without limit... period... it works better for me.

The acronyms and labels are a pain sometimes. It's more of a pain trying to find one that fits. Oddly enough, in dealing with others face to face i have rarely had to ask a couple to identify or explain what their relationship involves and who is dominant vs submissive and how extreme either is in their role. Although, i do know from experience that occasions will and do arise which require that i know.... A good example: Last weekend we came together with a local photographer, providing people at a local fetish fair with the opportunity to pose with the reptiles and have their portrait taken. In order to insure that their images were unique and showed off their personalities and that they were having fun in them and not all stiff and unnatural...... we sometimes had to ask what their roles were. If we didn't ask we'd have really screwed things up by putting submissives/slaves in dominant stances/positions.... and the dominant partners in seemingly submissive positions . Of course there were some who didn't know if they were top or bottom or switch or dom or sub/slave etc..... but knowing helped for most who posed.

The most challenging was posing the question, i started with the following:
"You two (or three or four etc) romantically involved... or in a girlfriend boyfriend like relationship or anything?"
If i got a yes.. the questions cointinued..
"Are you a top or bottom or sub or slave or dominant in this relationship?"
Sometimes they just didn't know the answer to that ... lol, it was fun. If they just looked confused and shrugged i'd ask the following:
"Does he/she belong to you... or do you belong to her/him... if so WHO belongs and WHO claims them?"

It was all very confusing at best. To sum it up, the only thing that mattered to most who seemed to others to be clueless was that they knew who they were to each other in absense of titles, labels and acronyms.

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL, so true in all you say sinn...and yes, sometimes labels help define, sometimes they further confuse.

Cat

 

[Etoile]

What is wrong with being a dick-sucking-robot?

The phrase "if she's not a dick-sucking robot, the relationship won't last long." there have been times when that could apply VERY well to the relationship between INSIDEYOURMIND and i..... in fact, it has applied at times.....and it has fit perfectly when it HAS.

To explain, i love giving Him oral. He loves it almost as much. But sometimes, i am just not in the mood, am not feeling well, or am too tired, or think i am too busy etc ect...... but i suck His dick anyway. i do it and i do it well and without complaining but as RARE as it happens....it does happen at times that 'my enjoying it too' isn't part of that equation. At that point i say, call me a dick-sucking-robot and watch me beam with pride.......... because all that matters to this dick-sucking-robot at that moment is that i am pleasing to Him.

For some, there is NOTHING wrong with being a dick-sucking-robot if that is what the relationship requires.

I guess our definitions of dick-sucking robot differ, then. What I had meant was "someone who never gets that petrified 'I can't' response" that you referred to. I shouldn't have referred specifically to dick-sucking, obviously - it was just following with the original command that had been suggested.

I actually had a conversation about that petrified response elsewhere on the web recently. I think it is the same as the "fight or flight" instinct, except as slaves, we know better than to fight back and we know better than to run away. But we still have that instinct, so we freeze, paralyzed, unable to respond.

And when it's happened to me, it's been resolved in the same way INSIDEYOURMIND apparently handles it - "oh yes you bloody well can!" Which makes me much happier than being told "okay fine, you can't, I'll stop."

 

[h_i_s]

....if i have given myself to a man as his property, but then say "well, but he has no right to ever abuse me"...that would be placing my own limits and attempting to hold power in the relationship...which imo negates such a relationship.

That statement fits well with how this relationship works.
First of all, if i were to express to my Master that "He has no right" to <insert pretty much anything as an example here> There is a chance that He might spend the rest of the day and then some showing me first hand , *just how much right* He HAS.
Ditto on the thought of abuse. He's a sadistic owner who has the right to cause me pain or suffering for nothing more than just entertainment and His own enjoyment if He chooses to. i'd be hard pressed to find a realistic example of something He could or would do to me which could be defined as abuse in this relationship.

And on that topic of "Would you kill for Him" and "Would you die for Him". Those are quite irrelivant and unrealistic questions for anyone to have to answer.
First of all, if i say yes.... can i PROVE it? So many that i have shared this debate with claim that they will die or kill if their master orders them to do so. i won't shake a finger at those who claim they will kill ( though i will guard my home address, children's names and make it a point to not invite them over to visit) .... because they just may be capable. The thing with saying they would be so obedient as to die if their Master commands them to do so......... bullshit (unless they are suicidal to begin with). i say to them, PROVE IT. In most (or all) cases the fight or flight theory kicks in...... like it or not. i know mine would kick in no matter how obedient i would intend to remain.... no doubt. That is just human nature.
Though i have been called a liar by those who were born natural true slaves... heh.

 

[h_i_s]

...And when it's happened to me, it's been resolved in the same way INSIDEYOURMIND apparently handles it - "oh yes you bloody well can!" Which makes me much happier than being told "okay fine, you can't, I'll stop."

i know where you stand and what you meant Etoile. It was one of those 'can't stop myself/can't let that opportunity slide by' moments.
A. i get to refer to myself as a dick-sucking-robot
B. i get to toy with Etoile a tiny bit.

i've never experienced the "okay fine, you can't, I'll stop." It's never been that simple with INSIDEYOURMIND. He'd not be so easily accepting of a blatant refusal to obey. i don't have to have been there to know that it would suck to go there, and not the good type of suck.

i HAVE experienced the "too petrified so i can't". i do not abuse my priviledge of calling out "i can't". i use it only for extreme moments of *freaked out, frozen in place.. can't move forward.... CAN'T hardly think straight experiences* . i'm not talking about moments of 'i don't feel like it, or it's not my favorite thing to do so i'll try to get out of doing it' stuff.

i try to get past the paniced and scared point and just obey and do as i am told.... This is another thing that is not so black and white. There's not just the "do it anyway' and the 'we stop because i am too scared' examples. There is also the example of i tried and He was somewhat patient because i REALLY tried..... & now we both are exhausted of trying to accomplish <whatever it was>... as a result and have reached the point of "that was one hell of a ride and we'll try it again some other time". Sometimes 'He'll stop' means nothing more than "He'll get to it another time".

For us, these are usually instances which require additional and deeper communication. They are the moments when He has stumbled upon something about me that we didn't realize causes a great deal of fear and reluctance... to examples of (meaning i can not control the instinct of fight or flight) unmistakable refusal.

 

[samsdolly]

Great post Marquis.

Catalina

Indeed. Great post.

 

[Etoile]

i know where you stand and what you meant Etoile. It was one of those 'can't stop myself/can't let that opportunity slide by' moments.
A. i get to refer to myself as a dick-sucking-robot
B. i get to toy with Etoile a tiny bit.

i've never experienced the "okay fine, you can't, I'll stop." It's never been that simple with INSIDEYOURMIND. He'd not be so easily accepting of a blatant refusal to obey. i don't have to have been there to know that it would suck to go there, and not the good type of suck.

i HAVE experienced the "too petrified so i can't". i do not abuse my priviledge of calling out "i can't". i use it only for extreme moments of *freaked out, frozen in place.. can't move forward.... CAN'T hardly think straight experiences* . i'm not talking about moments of 'i don't feel like it, or it's not my favorite thing to do so i'll try to get out of doing it' stuff.

i try to get past the paniced and scared point and just obey and do as i am told.... This is another thing that is not so black and white. There's not just the "do it anyway' and the 'we stop because i am too scared' examples. There is also the example of i tried and He was somewhat patient because i REALLY tried..... & now we both are exhausted of trying to accomplish <whatever it was>... as a result and have reached the point of "that was one hell of a ride and we'll try it again some other time". Sometimes 'He'll stop' means nothing more than "He'll get to it another time".

For us, these are usually instances which require additional and deeper communication. They are the moments when He has stumbled upon something about me that we didn't realize causes a great deal of fear and reluctance... to examples of (meaning i can not control the instinct of fight or flight) unmistakable refusal.

Well, it's fun to argue the point, too.

I certainly didn't mean that I use "I can't" to get out of things, of course. As you said, it is a time of panic and an instinctual response. The example that stands out in my mind is the time we were at Hellfire club in Manhattan, and Daddy told me to sing. We had never discussed singing, I do not consider myself a great singer, it seemed very out of place to sing while kneeling naked at Daddy's feet surrounded by a dozen guys with their dicks out, wanking off. The order, which was just whispered in my ear, totally surprised me, and my mind went blank. I. Could. Not. Sing. It wasn't that I refused, it wasn't that I didn't want to...I did, desperately, I wanted to do as I had been told! But no song could come out.

We talked about it afterward, and while I never did learn why that was brought up, I did prepare for next time. I chose a song that I have loved for many years, that most people wouldn't recognize - "Sabbath Prayer" from Fiddler on the Roof! It was just something that I knew I could sing if I was ever put on the spot like that again. Hellfire is long gone and I've never been tested, but I am still prepared to sing it if I am told to.

I'm also familiar with the "well that was interesting but it didn't work out, maybe another time" experience you describe. My experience usually revolves around when I physically can't complete a task, or when something just isn't working out as planned or isn't as much fun for Daddy as e was hoping.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

I guess this is where I see a difference between being a slave in a M/s or D/s relationship, and one where it is TPE because for us, there isn't really a way to abuse. Not because I have limits, or because he wouldn't do it as he has on occasion done things which most here would call abuse, but that is why you need to think hard before taking that step over the TPE line. Once you have, you have no more power to exert and not up to me to decide what he can and can't do and call him on it. I might let him know how I feel, I might show very much how much I am not enjoying it, but it isn't for me to judge his behaviour and reward or punish him for it. When I first stepped into this arrangement, he had limits which we both felt were OK, limits I didn't see personally as a must for me, but those limits were then his to change for both of us and over time he has...some are still in the realm of what I would have found OK before, some are not, but it is out of my hands and I accept that. It isn't abuse, because I made a well informed choice to consent.

Catalina

while i do understand and appreciate what you're saying, my view is that when you went TPE you trusted that He would not do those things that would be considered abuse and then if He does, then i'd say he doesn't have your best interests at heart. this is how *i* see it and i am not saying it's how it IS or SHOULD be. maybe my views come from the fact that i was in an abusive relationship for 10 years and i REFUSE to let ANYONE do those things to me again, i dont' give a rats ass if He is Master or not, i am still a human being and while i gave Him power over my life, i did not give Him permission to abuse me or HARM me in anyway.....and if HE stepped over that line, then yes He should and would be held accountable for His actions as i will not let it go and would probably turn Him in. i believe in a TPE yes you do give over that power BUT..He should not abuse said power by doing something that wold harm you...again this is just my opinion and i'm not saying what you do is wrong...i do hope you understand that, i just can't understand where you are coming from on this b ecause i would never allow myself to be abused in any way and then say 'oh well He's Master, so it's ok' it's not ok in my eyes, not by a long shot....

 

[lil_slave_rose]

yes there is a difference between abuse and Dominance, but the two are not mutually exclusive either. to me a Dominant is still a human being, and as such is still capable of anger, cruelty, abuse, and any other human trait. this makes him no less Dominant, tho perhaps it will make him the wrong sort of Dominant for someone like you.

for some abuse negates any D/s or M/s relationship, however some of us feel differently. if i have given myself to a man as his property, but then say "well, but he has no right to ever abuse me"...that would be placing my own limits and attempting to hold power in the relationship...which imo negates such a relationship.

i disagree once again, just because you give power over to your Dominant does not give Him/Her the right to abuse said power. you have a right to protect yourself against abuse that can seriously harm you. i do NOT understand how you can justify abuse by saying, well i gave Him consent to abuse me, no, you gave Him consent to lead your life, and take care of you, and make sure you are safe, if you're not safe from Him then how the heck can he protect you from anyone or anything else. and i do not believe that ANY man/woman who abuses another man/woman is a Dominant, they are a Domineering asshat who has no place in the lifestyle.....and who give other Dominants and this lifestyle a bad name. that is my opinion of course and i know you and a couple others will not agree, but this is simply how i feel. just because i am a slave, does not mean i'm a doormat. and i do realize that they are human and have a right to be angry, but at that point it's time to step away and come back when you can deal with things civily instead of lashing out in anger and abusing your pyl.....my opinion...ABUSE has no place in this lifestyle......period.

 

[h_i_s]

i disagree once again, just because you give power over to your Dominant does not give Him/Her the right to abuse said power. you have a right to protect yourself against abuse that can seriously harm you. i do NOT understand how you can justify abuse by saying, well i gave Him consent to abuse me, no, you gave Him consent to lead your life, and take care of you, and make sure you are safe, if you're not safe from Him then how the heck can he protect you from anyone or anything else. and i do not believe that ANY man/woman who abuses another man/woman is a Dominant, they are a Domineering asshat who has no place in the lifestyle.....and who give other Dominants and this lifestyle a bad name. that is my opinion of course and i know you and a couple others will not agree, but this is simply how i feel. just because i am a slave, does not mean i'm a doormat. and i do realize that they are human and have a right to be angry, but at that point it's time to step away and come back when you can deal with things civily instead of lashing out in anger and abusing your pyl.....my opinion...ABUSE has no place in this lifestyle......period.

That which is concidered to be hard core by one, is in another's view, anything but ....

The only people who are qualified to define what is abuse and what is not, are the people who, by consent, are IN the relationship (Perhaps the wording 'should be qualified' would be more accurate in that we know that in certain cases the LAW can and will dictate it's own definition. And, i do understand that their are examples for which the LAW must stick it's nose in the business of others, for example: A victim of domestic or 'relationship abuse', when asked in front of their alleged abuser out of fear of being further abused.. while peering out from behind swollen blacked eyes, and with a broken bloodied lower lip, may deny the abuse. At this point we can pretty much bet that SOMEONE is going to wind up in jail.... no matter how consensual they both claim to have been upon the infliction of the fat lip and blackened eyes. On that note, i'd say, outside of the LAW.... nobody else is qualified etc ect ect).

i agree that anyone has a right to pretect themselves from what they define as abusive. AND ... i also agree, with an equaled insistance, that any individual should be allowed the right to arrive at their own examples of what is and what is not abuse within THIER relationship.

On that note, what gives anyone outside of any relationship the right to stand up and say, "What they are living and enjoying and have consented to is wrong and abusive." ?

And as we stand outside of another's relationship HOW do we know what they have and have not agreed to/consented to?

And when sizing up someone else's relationship, and discovering that something within the relationship that had been negotiated as being within the boundaries of what was consented to and knowing that what 'you' identify with as being abusive, is exactly what THEY want and have signed up for.... what may be a hard limit for 'you' may be something that would bore them to tears... and their hard limits may seem to you to be mundane at best ..... etc.

P.S.
Outside of the topic of discussion, perhaps.. and if you don't mind elaborating, i'd most certainly and sincerely appreciate your doing so....
What does doormat mean to you? WHAT exactly would define a doormat-slave?

The statement in itself, when applied to a consensual-slave never ceases to intrigue me, and i thank you in advance for any clarification offered.

 

[catalina_francisco]

while i do understand and appreciate what you're saying, my view is that when you went TPE you trusted that He would not do those things that would be considered abuse and then if He does, then i'd say he doesn't have your best interests at heart. this is how *i* see it and i am not saying it's how it IS or SHOULD be. maybe my views come from the fact that i was in an abusive relationship for 10 years and i REFUSE to let ANYONE do those things to me again, i dont' give a rats ass if He is Master or not, i am still a human being and while i gave Him power over my life, i did not give Him permission to abuse me or HARM me in anyway.....and if HE stepped over that line, then yes He should and would be held accountable for His actions as i will not let it go and would probably turn Him in. i believe in a TPE yes you do give over that power BUT..He should not abuse said power by doing something that wold harm you...again this is just my opinion and i'm not saying what you do is wrong...i do hope you understand that, i just can't understand where you are coming from on this b ecause i would never allow myself to be abused in any way and then say 'oh well He's Master, so it's ok' it's not ok in my eyes, not by a long shot....

I don't think it is as easy as saying 'Oh he is Master, so it's OK' but then in a way it is. When I entered TPE, I was made to think long and hard. I offered it up as the gift I saw it...he refused it until he was satisfied I REALLY knew what I was doing, where it could lead, and the infinity of it. Part of what he did apart from telling me to think, was highlight how he could do things in the future which at that time he would never do and was not interested in and that it was not safe for me to think 'oh yeah I know, but you won't' because he just might....and he has. His strength in resisting the temptation to take what was so easily offered to ensure my happiness with the arrangement for longer than a minute, not only did make me stop and think, but also increased my trust in him and his character. Those are the things which I think really show you who a person is deep inside and which are why I can say I know him and do not see myself being shocked by some secret of his in the future.

It is difficult to describe the depth of TPE to someone else, not because I don't know what it is, or I don't think they can understand, but it is so hard to convey a feeling to someone else in words and have it understood. Part of who we are and who we were looking for was to do with wanting to walk on the edge and sometimes fall over that edge either into the depth of darkness or fall the other way where it is safer for the moment. We both recognised in each other that we were not thinking of it as a game, we didn't just want it for the good times, and it was all or nothing for both of us. In some ways the reason we can say we know each other that well is because we see ourselves reflected in each other.

It also comes from something else which I have mentioned before but which I didn't see in the same way I thought of it today. I went in search of another who could share this lifestyle with me, but was not prepared to give myself to one after the other. It had nothing to do with morals, I had already had enough vanilla lovers to make that a little stupid, but it had to do with feeling authentic when I submitted and became a slave. I did not feel I could feel authentic if I made such vows to anyone else, or a series of men who didn't work out. For me, if I had made it to one, then another, then another, it would have lost it's meaning and become jaded much like saying 'I love you' and believing it with everyone you ever date.

Imagine how I felt when I met someone who I later discovered felt the same?!! He had never asked another to marry him, he had never told another he loved them, he had never offered another his collar, and he had never offered or taken another as a slave in a TPE M/s relationship, and here he was at 35yo and been in the lifestyle very actively for several years. Like me, he didn't take it lightly or see it as something which you did with as many people as it took to find the right person...he believed you played with others, he had had other subs though only one who lived with him, but he had never had another slave and made the commitment he was prepared to make with me and for us. Simply put, that is how I know him so well because he is so like me in these areas where emotions, the heart, commitment, and responsibility are involved.

Catalina

 

[BeachGurl2]

Simply put, that is how I know him so well because he is so like me in these areas where emotions, the heart, commitment, and responsibility are involved.

And that, in my mind, is the key to TPE. When those things line up, then your consent can be a 'blank check'. Even when things don't go quite the way you envisioned, as you've said many, many times, it doesn't mean that you give up and walk away. It means that you adjust your thinking and keep going. That is exactly the relationship I'm searching for. The one where all of those things line up and I can truly give everything. Very well said, Cat.

 

[Lorelei_11]

there is a difference between abuse and Dominance. if He were to abuse you i would think that would fall outside the realm of D/s. there are enough abusers out there who hide behind the title of "Dominant" i don't care if it's a TPE or not, abuse is abuse and NO ONE has the right to abuse anyone. when i gave up control to my Master i gave it to Him trusting Him not to abuse that power, if He were to abuse me and then use the excuse that He is Master and i am slave i would have to tell Him where to shove it. maybe this comes from me being in an abusive relationship for more than 10 years, and feeling like i deserved it because he was the man and whatever he wanted to do to me i should just accept it and move on, i'm not that person anymore, and i've handed over control of my life to this Man, if He were to abuse the power He has over me, He would NOT be in within His rights as my Master, He would be an asshat...plain and simple.

Thats exactly how I feel.

I'd be into some roleplay, but not anything 24/7.

I was curious to read what others here thought. I can see I'm different than a lot of people in this thread. Even the idea of someone expecting me to give them a blowjob when irritable, grumpy, or just not in the mood... thats not good for me.

I see the word harm used, and for me, if expected to comply when I'm not feeling up to it, would harm me. It would harm me psychologically. I would be emotionally hurt. I desire to make the person I'm with happy, inside and outside of the bedroom, but not at the expense of my wellbeing.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i disagree once again, just because you give power over to your Dominant does not give Him/Her the right to abuse said power. you have a right to protect yourself against abuse that can seriously harm you. i do NOT understand how you can justify abuse by saying, well i gave Him consent to abuse me, no, you gave Him consent to lead your life, and take care of you, and make sure you are safe, if you're not safe from Him then how the heck can he protect you from anyone or anything else. and i do not believe that ANY man/woman who abuses another man/woman is a Dominant, they are a Domineering asshat who has no place in the lifestyle.....and who give other Dominants and this lifestyle a bad name. that is my opinion of course and i know you and a couple others will not agree, but this is simply how i feel. just because i am a slave, does not mean i'm a doormat. and i do realize that they are human and have a right to be angry, but at that point it's time to step away and come back when you can deal with things civily instead of lashing out in anger and abusing your pyl.....my opinion...ABUSE has no place in this lifestyle......period.

well that's your opinion, which of course you're more than entitled to, even if i happen to disagree with every fiber of my being lol. but the world would be a dull place if everyone agreed on everything.

one point you made i wanted to comment on, "how you can justify abuse by saying, well i gave Him consent to abuse me, no, you gave Him consent to lead your life, and take care of you, and make sure you are safe"....i consented to no such thing. i consented to be HIS, period. with the full understanding that, although i knew him and trusted him not to go crazy and chop off my arms or anything, that people change, things change, and that he may do or subject me to anything he wants. from the moment i said "yes, i agree to be your slave," my life was in his hands from that point forward.

also we would not consider it an "abuse of power" for him to abuse me. this is one point where i'll have to use Catalina's argument: because he is my Master, my Owner, his power over me is infinite and limitless, and therefore there can be no such thing as an "abuse" of it.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

That which is concidered to be hard core by one, is in another's view, anything but ....

The only people who are qualified to define what is abuse and what is not, are the people who, by consent, are IN the relationship (Perhaps the wording 'should be qualified' would be more accurate in that we know that in certain cases the LAW can and will dictate it's own definition. And, i do understand that their are examples for which the LAW must stick it's nose in the business of others, for example: A victim of domestic or 'relationship abuse', when asked in front of their alleged abuser out of fear of being further abused.. while peering out from behind swollen blacked eyes, and with a broken bloodied lower lip, may deny the abuse. At this point we can pretty much bet that SOMEONE is going to wind up in jail.... no matter how consensual they both claim to have been upon the infliction of the fat lip and blackened eyes. On that note, i'd say, outside of the LAW.... nobody else is qualified etc ect ect).

i agree that anyone has a right to pretect themselves from what they define as abusive. AND ... i also agree, with an equaled insistance, that any individual should be allowed the right to arrive at their own examples of what is and what is not abuse within THIER relationship.

On that note, what gives anyone outside of any relationship the right to stand up and say, "What they are living and enjoying and have consented to is wrong and abusive." ?

And as we stand outside of another's relationship HOW do we know what they have and have not agreed to/consented to?

And when sizing up someone else's relationship, and discovering that something within the relationship that had been negotiated as being within the boundaries of what was consented to and knowing that what 'you' identify with as being abusive, is exactly what THEY want and have signed up for.... what may be a hard limit for 'you' may be something that would bore them to tears... and their hard limits may seem to you to be mundane at best ..... etc.

P.S.
Outside of the topic of discussion, perhaps.. and if you don't mind elaborating, i'd most certainly and sincerely appreciate your doing so....
What does doormat mean to you? WHAT exactly would define a doormat-slave?

The statement in itself, when applied to a consensual-slave never ceases to intrigue me, and i thank you in advance for any clarification offered.

ok first of all i was not speaking of anyone's relationship in particular. i am well aware that what works for me doesn't work for everyone. i know this and i live by it. my point on abuse was missed and so i started a thread about it. beachgurl in that thread gave a very good definition of what i think a 'doormat' is, and i could not say it any better so if you go to the 'abuse:is there such a thing in the lifestyle' thread, you will find my answer as to what a doormat is. i'm not saying what is right or wrong in someone else's relationship, i would never do that. i was trying to understand it is all. and now that i've hijacked RJ's thread, i will apologise and move onto my own *smiles*

 

[lil_slave_rose]

well that's your opinion, which of course you're more than entitled to, even if i happen to disagree with every fiber of my being lol. but the world would be a dull place if everyone agreed on everything.

one point you made i wanted to comment on, "how you can justify abuse by saying, well i gave Him consent to abuse me, no, you gave Him consent to lead your life, and take care of you, and make sure you are safe"....i consented to no such thing. i consented to be HIS, period. with the full understanding that, although i knew him and trusted him not to go crazy and chop off my arms or anything, that people change, things change, and that he may do or subject me to anything he wants. from the moment i said "yes, i agree to be your slave," my life was in his hands from that point forward.

also we would not consider it an "abuse of power" for him to abuse me. this is one point where i'll have to use Catalina's argument: because he is my Master, my Owner, his power over me is infinite and limitless, and therefore there can be no such thing as an "abuse" of it.

THIS is the mindset i dont' understand. you yourself said you went into it with the idea that he would not cut off your arms, etc..but yet you still say there is no abuse. then why use that as an example? i mean if you are consenting to everything, then you are consenting to him cutting off your arms, right? and it's still not abuse....i don't know, i'll never understand and i don't expect you to agree with me, which is why in my post i said it was MY opinion and i knew that you and a few others would not agree with me, but there is a difference between abuse and dominance, dominance and domineering, i would never want to be 'afraid' of my Master.....

 

[Etoile]

THIS is the mindset i dont' understand. you yourself said you went into it with the idea that he would not cut off your arms, etc..but yet you still say there is no abuse. then why use that as an example? i mean if you are consenting to everything, then you are consenting to him cutting off your arms, right? and it's still not abuse....i don't know, i'll never understand and i don't expect you to agree with me, which is why in my post i said it was MY opinion and i knew that you and a few others would not agree with me, but there is a difference between abuse and dominance, dominance and domineering, i would never want to be 'afraid' of my Master.....

I agree with sinn0cent that each couple must define for themselves what "abuse" means. That's why I'm not sure that osg would define cutting off arms as abuse. I think she meant that it's crazy and insane, but not abuse, because there is no abuse in her relationship, because she has given herself to him completely. I think abuse is when you do something without consent, not just when you do something that harms. I can envision osg saying "well, yes he cut off my arms, but they were his arms to cut off anyway, and I am okay with that." And if she doesn't think it's abuse, then - like sinn0cent said - who are we to say that it is?

I will go check out your other thread.

 

[catalina_francisco]

THIS is the mindset i dont' understand. you yourself said you went into it with the idea that he would not cut off your arms, etc..but yet you still say there is no abuse. then why use that as an example? i mean if you are consenting to everything, then you are consenting to him cutting off your arms, right? and it's still not abuse....i don't know, i'll never understand

I don't think it is as simple as going into it expecting or not expecting anything in particular because it would be unrealistic and infinite to make such a list, but for myself it was a matter of going into it expecting the unexpected, meaning even those things which at that point were not on his list of things he wanted or thought he would do, there was a possibility they would one day reside there comfortably and I had to be prepared for that eventuation. There are things you might think you will want to try down the track a bit only to find out you cannot or freak out unexpectedly when the time comes while there may be other things you think you could never get into or attempt and yet when the time comes you find they become some of your favourite activities...it is too difficult to try and predict these things, but regardless, when you accept you are no longer in a position to object or say yes or no, it no longer remains a question of if it is abusive or not. Once you accept that point in heart, mind and soul, the rest is child's play as the saying goes.

Catalina

 

[serijules]

I have understood how people have used it and have never really seen it all that important to go through the nit pick process to point out that if you have surrended all power, then how can it be exchanged?

I'm not saying this to start the "nit-picking" conversation as we've already all done that in another recent thread, but I just wanted to share this out loud.

If nothing was surrendered, there would be nothing to take either, would there?

There's your exchange. I don't think it's quite as complicated as a lot of people try to make it out to be.

The "total power" part for me simply means that there are no longer limits or conditions. The exchange part simply means that I offered it, she accepted it, and that is the concept our relationship from that point on is built on.

 

[ownedsubgal]

actually, my point really is that my Master CAN abuse me, at times does abuse me, that abuse DOES have a place in our relationship and therefore in the D/s M/s lifestyle. i think in the other thread i define what abuse is to me, and under that definition, abuse is a part of my relationship.

however, i have consented to such treatment because i have consented to be his...with the understanding that once his, there are no limits, no restrictions, on his power over me.

where i said there was no abuse, was regarding the idea of "abuse of power." there can be no such thing as an abuse of his power over me.

so rose, when i say that i went into this with the understanding that he would not "cut off my arms" and such, it was also with the understanding that anything is possible under the sun, people change (i.e. go crazy or whatever) and if one day he woke up and decided he wanted my arms cut off, that is what would happen and he would every right to do that. and yes, i would define such an action as abuse, as would he, but "abuse" is not a dirty word in this house.

you said you would never want to be afraid of your Master. well that could be where some of our differences in viewpoint lie...i feel quite the opposite, that it is a good and healthy thing for me as a slave to fear the One who owns me. if i didn't, the sort of respect, adoration, and reverence i need to feel for a Master couldn't exist. likewise, he couldn't achieve the particular type of conditioning and pliability (is that a word? lol) that he needs from a slave. He made certain from early on that i feared him and he makes sure that i continue to fear him as the years go on. it's just one more thing that gives him power over me.