The Female Gaze

[Bramblethorn]

He's a bit perforated, though.

*penetrated

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

*penetrated

Good point.

 

[MelissaBaby]

*penetrated

Bullseye.

(Is that too much on the nose?)

 

[stickygirl]

Or pick anything that Michaelangelo ever did. There's a strong homoerotic element in the way he presents male figures in paintings and statues. It doesn't matter whether the subject is religious or not.

~~ "is it art or is it porn"? If you have to ask, it's probably both. It depends on how you look at. I'm sure men have masturbated to Manet's painting. So it's porn. It's objectifying, at least for some.
~~

Hiding porn behind the mask of religious iconography was a widely accepted genre, from what I've read. There's even Madonna's silicon implants for everyone's gaze in 1452. Maybe women’s clothing was more reliable then than later, when realistic breasts fell out on every occasion?

As a side note, I was thinking about Jane Austen, who never wrote conversations between men, because she would never have heard them. Conversation is always modified by the company, whether it is exclusively women, or men, or if there are children present. In that sense JA had it easy: she wrote a linear timeline, in third person and never had to guess at what men might say. Despite fewer social constraints, we have a more difficult job and find ourselves expected to research, guess, conjecture or even eavesdrop on the secrets of the other side. Nevertheless since the sexes frequently misunderstand each other, it can be a useful source of material for character development and plot twists.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Hiding porn behind the mask of religious iconography was a widely accepted genre, from what I've read. There's even Madonna's silicon implants for everyone's gaze in 1452. Maybe women’s clothing was more reliable then than later, when realistic breasts fell out on every occasion?

As a side note, I was thinking about Jane Austen, who never wrote conversations between men, because she would never have heard them. Conversation is always modified by the company, whether it is exclusively women, or men, or if there are children present. In that sense JA had it easy: she wrote a linear timeline, in third person and never had to guess at what men might say. Despite fewer social constraints, we have a more difficult job and find ourselves expected to research, guess, conjecture or even eavesdrop on the secrets of the other side. Nevertheless since the sexes frequently misunderstand each other, it can be a useful source of material for character development and plot twists.

I hadn't thought about that. While women certainly are capable of getting nasty with each other (infamously catty) that's fairly rare in my experience, particularly in professional or formal settings. If you think about breaking out into working groups at a seminar or something like that, when you're in an all-female group, the presentation and consideration of ideas follows a very different trajectory than if you're in a mixed working group.

Just like in any group, the group of only women would have some people with strong opinions and some people less tactful than others, but the overall process tends to be consensus-driven and the language used is reflective of that. If you compared the dialog of the women's working group and the dialog of the men's working group, there would be dramatic differences. I suspect that there might not be a dramatic difference between the dialog of the men's working group and the mixed working group.

I always pay attention to what groups of men talk about amongst themselves, partly because I'm always trying to figure men out better, and partly because it's just entertaining because it's so different. Under those circumstances, it becomes really clear that men edit themselves around women. (Not always enough! )

 

[Omenainen]

Despite fewer social constraints, we have a more difficult job and find ourselves expected to research, guess, conjecture or even eavesdrop on the secrets of the other side. Nevertheless since the sexes frequently misunderstand each other, it can be a useful source of material for character development and plot twists.

There’s something about this that I just find so peculiar. I’ve got both male and female friends. I don’t think any of them misunderstand me or that I misunderstand them. I talk with them like I talk with my friends and they talk with me like they talk
with theirs. I can’t ever have a conversation I’m not part of, so it would be hard to know what goes on when I’m not there to witness it, so it might be some sort of a misconception. And surely my friends act differently with people other than me, but so do I in some other company. I just don’t associate it with gender.

For example there seems to be a (rather large) group of people that don’t believe that men and women can be friends at all. They think it’s always sexual, that one or the other has to want more than they’re getting, or that it’s just adultery waiting to happen if one or both of said friends are in a relationship. I don’t really know what that is based on, maybe the conception that men and women are somehow sooo different they can’t possibly understand each other.

Well, before this COVID thingy started the last trip I took was a long weekend with one of my friends, who happens to be of the opposite sex. We’re both married and so it’s to some extent reasonable to assume we’re both heterosexual. So we took a trip to another country, without our spouses, just the two of us, we shared a hotel room, and guess what? We didn’t fuck once. We’ve know each other a lot longer than we’ve known either of our spouses, and if we haven’t fucked by now we’re probably not gonna. We’re just friends. And well, neither of our spouses thought anything about it, so that’s just how it is in my circle of friends.

So I feel I don’t understand the group of people that don’t believe in friendships between men and women. I feel their thinking is quite alien to me, but the line is not drawn by gender, it’s drawn by this ...attitude? Or whatever. Now that I think about it, maybe the LW crowd consists of those people? I’m new here and I still have no clue what that whole category is about, just that it seems to be based on some idea of relationships and/or people that is not at all the one I have.

There’s other similar thought patterns that I can’t identify with at all, but I can’t think of any that would be clearly defined by gender. That’s just the first one that came to mind.

I don’t mean to imply patriarchy doesn’t exist or influence us all, but that’s another topic altogether.

Anyway, I don’t think I’ve got any problems imagining persons of the opposite sex, as long as I imagine them to be kinda like my friends they’re just people and I don’t have any problems imagining them talking with each other. Or having sex with each other. I might not be able to imagine the other kind of people, but well, if I can’t make it work I just won’t write about them.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So I feel I don’t understand the group of people that don’t believe in friendships between men and women. I feel their thinking is quite alien to me, but the line is not drawn by gender, it’s drawn by this ...attitude?

I've not seen this attitude expressed anywhere - it might be in pockets of LW, I don't know, I don't go there. If it is entrenched anywhere, then I don't move in those circles. I've always far preferred the company of women over men. Always have, can't ever see that stopping.

One thing that has intrigued me, to the extent it gets an explicit mention in several stories, is that several women, at different times in my life, have said of me, "You're unusual when you talk to me, because you give me your undivided attention. Most men don't do that." The first time I heard I asked exactly what she meant, and when I heard it again, some time later and then a couple of times later again, I thought, is this something that I do, that I don't even know about?

Then, when I observed women talking to each other, in the bus, in the street, having private conversations in public places, cafés and so on, I saw many differences in the ways women engage with one another, compared to men. Much more engaging, for a start, always more intimate. I almost felt quite privileged, as if I'd been let into a secret. Mind you, I could also be quite delusional, thinking this. If it is a thing, women will nod their heads in agreement, men will scratch theirs in confusion .

 

[AlinaX]

Ultimately it's about trust, fear and jealousy. Presumably there is an element of sexual attraction, and if you were single or unfaithful you would be perhaps interested in pursuing a non-platonic relationship.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So I feel I don’t understand the group of people that don’t believe in friendships between men and women. I feel their thinking is quite alien to me, but the line is not drawn by gender, it’s drawn by this ...attitude? Or whatever. Now that I think about it, maybe the LW crowd consists of those people? I’m new here and I still have no clue what that whole category is about, just that it seems to be based on some idea of relationships and/or people that is not at all the one I have.

There’s other similar thought patterns that I can’t identify with at all, but I can’t think of any that would be clearly defined by gender. That’s just the first one that came to mind.

I don’t mean to imply patriarchy doesn’t exist or influence us all, but that’s another topic altogether.

Anyway, I don’t think I’ve got any problems imagining persons of the opposite sex, as long as I imagine them to be kinda like my friends they’re just people and I don’t have any problems imagining them talking with each other. Or having sex with each other. I might not be able to imagine the other kind of people, but well, if I can’t make it work I just won’t write about them.

Yeah, my experience is much the same.

One of the things I saw when covid lockdowns started is people lamenting the awful prospect of being stuck in a house in close proximity to their spouse/partner. I know those attitudes exist, I grew up reading the old "ball and chain" type jokes, but it's just like a weird and unrelatable foreign country - why on earth would you tie yourself to somebody you don't want to spend time with?

Same for "men and women can't be friends", "exes can't be friends", "friends have to support the same sporting team", "women should never admit to having bodily functions".

I know that other world exists. But if I want to write it, I need to lean heavily on other people's fictional depictions. Actually stepping into it is a very uncomfortable experience and not one I seek out.

 

[stickygirl]

There’s something about this that I just find so peculiar. I’ve got both male and female friends. I don’t think any of them misunderstand me or that I misunderstand them. ~~edit~~
Anyway, I don’t think I’ve got any problems imagining persons of the opposite sex, as long as I imagine them to be kinda like my friends they’re just people and I don’t have any problems imagining them talking with each other. Or having sex with each other. I might not be able to imagine the other kind of people, but well, if I can’t make it work I just won’t write about them.

I've heard that claim: that men and women can't be friends, but like all generalisations ... There are some bonds that go deeper than sexual attraction that are more important and enduring. Shared trauma would be one of those.

But I can't be alone is observing how at a family gathering, once the introductions are done, the women and men will strike up separate conversations simply because they have different interests. In a locker room setting the conversations are quite different and I've been shocked in the past by some discussions held in a single-sex setting, where it's known it won't be overhead. Those two examples are of course different kinds of groups, but language and topics are always modified by the make up of a group IMO.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

There’s something about this that I just find so peculiar. I’ve got both male and female friends. I don’t think any of them misunderstand me or that I misunderstand them. I talk with them like I talk with my friends and they talk with me like they talk
with theirs. I can’t ever have a conversation I’m not part of, so it would be hard to know what goes on when I’m not there to witness it, so it might be some sort of a misconception. And surely my friends act differently with people other than me, but so do I in some other company. I just don’t associate it with gender.

For example there seems to be a (rather large) group of people that don’t believe that men and women can be friends at all. They think it’s always sexual, that one or the other has to want more than they’re getting, or that it’s just adultery waiting to happen if one or both of said friends are in a relationship. I don’t really know what that is based on, maybe the conception that men and women are somehow sooo different they can’t possibly understand each other.

Well, before this COVID thingy started the last trip I took was a long weekend with one of my friends, who happens to be of the opposite sex. We’re both married and so it’s to some extent reasonable to assume we’re both heterosexual. So we took a trip to another country, without our spouses, just the two of us, we shared a hotel room, and guess what? We didn’t fuck once. We’ve know each other a lot longer than we’ve known either of our spouses, and if we haven’t fucked by now we’re probably not gonna. We’re just friends. And well, neither of our spouses thought anything about it, so that’s just how it is in my circle of friends.

So I feel I don’t understand the group of people that don’t believe in friendships between men and women. I feel their thinking is quite alien to me, but the line is not drawn by gender, it’s drawn by this ...attitude? Or whatever. Now that I think about it, maybe the LW crowd consists of those people? I’m new here and I still have no clue what that whole category is about, just that it seems to be based on some idea of relationships and/or people that is not at all the one I have.

There’s other similar thought patterns that I can’t identify with at all, but I can’t think of any that would be clearly defined by gender. That’s just the first one that came to mind.

I don’t mean to imply patriarchy doesn’t exist or influence us all, but that’s another topic altogether.

Anyway, I don’t think I’ve got any problems imagining persons of the opposite sex, as long as I imagine them to be kinda like my friends they’re just people and I don’t have any problems imagining them talking with each other. Or having sex with each other. I might not be able to imagine the other kind of people, but well, if I can’t make it work I just won’t write about them.

This seems like a very different issue. I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be talked about, but I see the issue of "gaze" as a dramatically different issue than what you're addressing.

As far as men and women not being able to be friends, I though that idea died out decades ago. I'm suppose I shouldn't be surprised it still exists somewhere, but I've certainly had a very different experience.

I have noticed quite an insistence by some people that they understand the opposite gender, even when people of the opposite gender are shaking their heads and saying, "no, you don't." I don't know whether you do or not. I don't know whether I do or not. But I do know that being too sure you understand someone else is a potential cause for misunderstandings.

We can probably crawl infinitely far into some metaphysical tunnel about whether anyone can truly ever know anyone else, but I don't think it has to be that complicated. This is one of many paths that divert the attention from the fact that we have one perspective being shown nearly exclusively in cinema. I don't mean to suggest that it's not worth going down the path, and maybe we're ready to move on from the original topic. We should recognize, though, that whether women and men can understand each other does not directly bear on whether or not they see things the same way and portray them the same way in film.

Having different ways of doing things or seeing things doesn't mean not understanding each other. It can, but it doesn't have to.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've not seen this attitude expressed anywhere - it might be in pockets of LW, I don't know, I don't go there. If it is entrenched anywhere, then I don't move in those circles. I've always far preferred the company of women over men. Always have, can't ever see that stopping.

One thing that has intrigued me, to the extent it gets an explicit mention in several stories, is that several women, at different times in my life, have said of me, "You're unusual when you talk to me, because you give me your undivided attention. Most men don't do that." The first time I heard I asked exactly what she meant, and when I heard it again, some time later and then a couple of times later again, I thought, is this something that I do, that I don't even know about?

Then, when I observed women talking to each other, in the bus, in the street, having private conversations in public places, cafés and so on, I saw many differences in the ways women engage with one another, compared to men. Much more engaging, for a start, always more intimate. I almost felt quite privileged, as if I'd been let into a secret. Mind you, I could also be quite delusional, thinking this. If it is a thing, women will nod their heads in agreement, men will scratch theirs in confusion .

I seem to recall making this point in another thread some time ago, but in my observation, there are a few gender specific communications quirks that lead to a great deal of misunderstanding.

For whatever reason, women tend to focus more on looking directly at the person with whm they are having a conversation, and the more intense their concentration, the more they maintain eye contact. When men are concentrating, they tend to look away, up at the ceiling or down at their feet. Often the woman, seeing the man gazing away, out the window or, god forbid, in the direction of the television, thinks he is not paying attention when he is. The man, on the other hand, will often feel that the woman, by "staring" at him while he speaks, is showing signs of disagreement or hostility, when in fact, she is just paying close attention.

Also, if you watch two men have an important conversation, when one is speaking, the other will usually sit and listen in complete silence. Two women, and it's "Oh?...touches her arm..."What did he say then?"...shakes head..."uh huh"..."uh huh..."

A man and a women engaging in those same behaviors, she thinks he's zoned out and he thinks she's trying to rush him.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I've heard that claim: that men and women can't be friends, but like all generalisations ... There are some bonds that go deeper than sexual attraction that are more important and enduring. Shared trauma would be one of those.

But I can't be alone is observing how at a family gathering, once the introductions are done, the women and men will strike up separate conversations simply because they have different interests. In a locker room setting the conversations are quite different and I've been shocked in the past by some discussions held in a single-sex setting, where it's known it won't be overhead. Those two examples are of course different kinds of groups, but language and topics are always modified by the make up of a group IMO.

90% of the conversations among women in prison are about food.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Also, if you watch two men have an important conversation, when one is speaking, the other will usually sit and listen in complete silence. Two women, and it's "Oh?...touches her arm..."What did he say then?"...shakes head..."uh huh"..."uh huh..."

That's it exactly, the continual look, the touch - her "constant gaze", as I described it in one story.

One of the most intimate moments in my life, decades ago now - I was going for an important interview, scrubbing up well in a suit. A young woman in the office brushed imaginary lint from my jacket lapel and straightened my tie. It was straight, there was no lint, but my god, the moment! I didn't get the job, but I'll never forget the moment.

 

[SimonDoom]

So I feel I don’t understand the group of people that don’t believe in friendships between men and women. I feel their thinking is quite alien to me, but the line is not drawn by gender, it’s drawn by this ...attitude? .

It's not my attitude, but I am familiar with it in other people I know, and among others I know of although I don't know them personally.

Many, many people are possessive and jealous. It can be a personal trait with some, and with others it can be the product of cultural and social pressures.

Sometimes it's a projection of doubt in oneself. Some people cheat, and they know if they are tempted they will give in to it. These people have a hard time imagining that others are not like them. If I would cheat if left alone with someone of the opposite sex, they reason, then certainly my partner would. I know people like this.

Some people have very poor self esteem, and they imagine if you are spending time with another person then that person is a threat to take you away.

Our Vice President has said he has a policy of never being alone with a woman who is not his wife, out of alleged respect for his wife and because of religious scruples. This seems absurd to me, but obviously it does not for many with similar religious convictions.

The idea that men and women can't be friends was popularized by When Harry Met Sally. It was a silly bit of pseudo-wisdom that served its purpose in that film, but it's not true, except perhaps for some people.

I don't know if this attitude is more common with men than with women or if it's equally spread among everyone.

 

[Omenainen]

Yeah, my experience is much the same.

One of the things I saw when covid lockdowns started is people lamenting the awful prospect of being stuck in a house in close proximity to their spouse/partner. I know those attitudes exist, I grew up reading the old "ball and chain" type jokes, but it's just like a weird and unrelatable foreign country - why on earth would you tie yourself to somebody you don't want to spend time with?

Yeah, I’ve been wondering about the same. So they’re sharing their life with someone they don’t want to share their life with for why exactly? (Now, that doesn’t extend to spending time with one’s offspring 24/7 - I understand now why some animals eat their young. I really hope the schools don’t close down again.)

But I can't be alone is observing how at a family gathering, once the introductions are done, the women and men will strike up separate conversations simply because they have different interests. In a locker room setting the conversations are quite different and I've been shocked in the past by some discussions held in a single-sex setting, where it's known it won't be overhead. Those two examples are of course different kinds of groups, but language and topics are always modified by the make up of a group IMO.

I recognize what you describe. I don’t tend to do well in those types of settings. I don’t belong to either group if it goes like that. Luckily it doesn’t, in my immediate social surroundings.

This seems like a very different issue. I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be talked about, but I see the issue of "gaze" as a dramatically different issue than what you're addressing.

Yeah, sorry, I can’t keep on topic but I keep butting in anyway.

I have noticed quite an insistence by some people that they understand the opposite gender, even when people of the opposite gender are shaking their heads and saying, "no, you don't." I don't know whether you do or not. I don't know whether I do or not. But I do know that being too sure you understand someone else is a potential cause for misunderstandings.

Fair point. I wouldn’t claim to understand the opposite sex. I wouldn’t even claim to understand my own. There’s some set of individuals I understand and then a huge amount that I more or less don’t. It doesn’t divide by gender for me. And I genuinely feel my friends understand me, regardless of gender.

Many, many people are possessive and jealous. It can be a personal trait with some, and with others it can be the product of cultural and social pressures.

Sometimes it's a projection of doubt in oneself. Some people cheat, and they know if they are tempted they will give in to it. These people have a hard time imagining that others are not like them. If I would cheat if left alone with someone of the opposite sex, they reason, then certainly my partner would. I know people like this.

Yeah, well. Possessiveness in a relationship is another entry on my “does not compute” -list. And as to people thinking they or their partner would cheat “if left alone with someone of the opposite sex” - I know that type of people too - that’s awfully non selective, huh? I mean I don’t discriminate by gender who I want to fuck and yet my short list has always been really short and definitely doesn’t include “random person I happen to be alone with for whatever reason“.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Yeah, I’ve been wondering about the same. So they’re sharing their life with someone they don’t want to share their life with for why exactly? (Now, that doesn’t extend to spending time with one’s offspring 24/7 - I understand now why some animals eat their young. I really hope the schools don’t close down again.)

I've been wondering if we're going to see a spike in divorces. Even if we do, it doesn't necessarily mean it's only related to being cooped up together. All the stress of the situation in general is likely to contribute if there's already an existing problem. I feel pretty fortunate to be cooped up with an eminently tolerable partner. It's been nice to have more time together, although nobody would want it at this price. But, people do stay together when the relationship is less than ideal, whether it's because of children, finances, health situations, or just that the relationship isn't bad enough to justify the misery of ending it. I can see how in those situations, covid-19 could be the relationship's death knell.

Yeah, sorry, I can’t keep on topic but I keep butting in anyway.

It's not butting in! It's contributing. I don't think there's anything wrong with tangential topics. I just wanted to clarify that it is a separate thing. We've had enough difficulty defining what is meant by gaze that it feel important to be sure conflating related topics.

Yeah, well. Possessiveness in a relationship is another entry on my “does not compute” -list. And as to people thinking they or their partner would cheat “if left alone with someone of the opposite sex” - I know that type of people too - that’s awfully non selective, huh? I mean I don’t discriminate by gender who I want to fuck and yet my short list has always been really short and definitely doesn’t include “random person I happen to be alone with for whatever reason“.

And yet there are people who do seem to try to fuck anyone that gets too near them. Where those individuals are concerned, I don't know why anyone who wants monogamy would be with them. It happens often enough, though.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

That's interesting. Speaking just for myself, I try to avoid making super long prolonged eye contact with anyone when they're talking because I worry it will come across as aggressive, or that I'm staring. There's like a time limit in my head for how long I'll keep eye contact before I look away, just to reset the clock, if that makes sense.

This is especially the case when talking to women I don't know very well. I feel like it's easy to creep someone out if you're staring them down.

I never really thought of this as a gender difference before, but you're right -- usually when I'm talking to close friends who are women, I'm always the one looking away every now and then.

The worst for me is when I become aware of the duration of eye contact. It's not something I usually pay conscious attention to, but once I do, every time I look away, it feels artificial, but a sustained gaze is too much to take. It's like suddenly noticing one's breathing and then being unable to shift back to unconscious breathing.

 

[stickygirl]

For whatever reason, women tend to focus more on looking directly at the person with when they are having a conversation, and the more intense their concentration, the more they maintain eye contact. When men are concentrating, they tend to look away, up at the ceiling or down at their feet. Often the woman, seeing the man gazing away, out the window or, god forbid, in the direction of the television, thinks he is not paying attention when he is.
~~snip

That's interesting. Speaking just for myself, I try to avoid making super long prolonged eye contact with anyone when they're talking because I worry it will come across as aggressive, or that I'm staring. There's like a time limit in my head for how long I'll keep eye contact before I look away, just to reset the clock, if that makes sense.
~~snip

The worst for me is when I become aware of the duration of eye contact. It's not something I usually pay conscious attention to, but once I do, every time I look away, it feels artificial, but a sustained gaze is too much to take. It's like suddenly noticing one's breathing and then being unable to shift back to unconscious breathing.

Don't, whatever you do, read a book called the Psychology on Interpersonal Behaviour, Michael Argyle. I picked up a copy a couple of years ago: it's truly fascinating, covering studies of eye contact, 'safe' touch zones on bodies, distancing etc and it took me months to shake it off. In conversations, I found I was making notes and not listening to the person properly! All the same - yes it's a thing... length of gaze has been measured down to 1/ths of a second Basically eye contact between women is affirmation, with men it's confrontation.

Another thunk was related to men's lack of eye contact being misunderstood, because it's something autistic people can struggle with too. Because it's such an important communication and means of acceptance in the neurotypical world, asd kids are often told to look at the space between people's eyes if they can't manage looking into eyes.

In writing, eye contact is sometimes reported when "his blue eyes spoke of warm seas and distant shores" or "when she gazed at me, I felt my soul was tumbling away from me" [metaphors may settle when packed]. Our language is full of eye contact jargon: a fleeting glimpse, a stolen glance, fluttering eyes, aggressive stare.

"I have been meditating on the very great pleasure which a pair of fine eyes in the face of a pretty woman can bestow" Jane Austen

 

[Omenainen]

I’m not comfortable with holding eye contact and I don’t want to be touched by most anyone while talking with them. But I’m Finnish, we’re pretty much all like this.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Don't, whatever you do, read a book called the Psychology on Interpersonal Behaviour, Michael Argyle. I picked up a copy a couple of years ago: it's truly fascinating, covering studies of eye contact, 'safe' touch zones on bodies, distancing etc and it took me months to shake it off. In conversations, I found I was making notes and not listening to the person properly! All the same - yes it's a thing... length of gaze has been measured down to 1/ths of a second Basically eye contact between women is affirmation, with men it's confrontation.

Try walking into a lift and not turning around to face the doors. I played mind games for a while when I was a cocky young arts student, and that one really did people's heads in!

But the eye contact and undivided attention thang - it must be my feminine side. Welcome to your anima, said Mr Jung. I'm constantly writing doppelgangers and wondering who the hell all these women are, hiding down in my subconscious.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've been wondering if we're going to see a spike in divorces. Even if we do, it doesn't necessarily mean it's only related to being cooped up together. All the stress of the situation in general is likely to contribute if there's already an existing problem. I feel pretty fortunate to be cooped up with an eminently tolerable partner. It's been nice to have more time together, although nobody would want it at this price. But, people do stay together when the relationship is less than ideal, whether it's because of children, finances, health situations, or just that the relationship isn't bad enough to justify the misery of ending it. I can see how in those situations, covid-19 could be the relationship's death knell.

I'm sure it is taking its toll on relationships, but the divorce numbers may be complicated by economic conditions. It's a lot easier for somebody to leave a dud relationship if they have a steady income, which a lot of people now don't. The housing market is also a wee bit complicated right now.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

I'm sure it is taking its toll on relationships, but the divorce numbers may be complicated by economic conditions. It's a lot easier for somebody to leave a dud relationship if they have a steady income, which a lot of people now don't. The housing market is also a wee bit complicated right now.

If it comes, it will be a delayed result. Divorces are planned events. People wait until things have settled down. The financial issues are probably the biggest factor. I have a friend who's a divorce lawyer, and I learned from her that divorces drop off dramatically over November and December, while people try to make things nice for the holidays. By late January and early February, the rate spikes.

Whether or not there's a vaccine may have a lot to do with it, too. If a parent isn't already having to deal with joint custody issues in a post-covid-19 world, I don't imagine they're going to relish the idea of taking those on. In the US, the kids still get swapped back and forth, even under lockdown restrictions, exposing them to two households' worth of risk, and potentially exposing the kid to a laxer set of protections at one household.

 

[jehoram]

Try walking into a lift and not turning around to face the doors.

And then there are those elevators that have two doors, and the people facing the door they came in on were freaked out when the rear wall opened up...

 

[stickygirl]

I have a friend who's a divorce lawyer, and I learned from her that divorces drop off dramatically over November and December, while people try to make things nice for the holidays. By late January and early February, the rate spikes.

Legal gaze
We haven't mentioned that one. Or cat gaze