The girl who never says no

[BrightlyGo]

Saying no,like safe-wording out, can feel like a failure. I'm pathologically conflict-avoidant, as well, so i drive her crazy with my reluctance to admit what i want or don't want. ;(

But,our PYLs need us to communicate even when it's hard for us, or They won't be able to keep us safe.

 

[Ahlam]

Healthy or not, for me often saying No can feel like more of an effort and burden than the more fluid response of compliance. This is especially true the more tired I get. Appropriate or not, the relationships that understand and honor this about me are just far more sustainable.

This concept of healthy boundaries is definitely a more intense study of mine of late. I am learning that the relationships where the burden of No is balanced feels like healthy and playful growth. The connections that require me to carry most of the No seem to zap my resources faster than anything else. The places where I carry less No however, seems to be a place of rest and renewal that a deeper part of me seems to long for. I think I am finally starting to understand why.

That said, I struggle still to figure out if this is something I should work to internally change, or if it is a lesson of just needing to use this self preserving need as a filter when selecting my more or even most intimate company.

Ahlam, I strain with you calling this a problem. How can I label this a "problem" when it is clear that this is for some an attractive attribute?

I am very interested in what you described as "the burden of no." I hadn't thought to phrase it that way, and it seems to fit. It especially sucks having to say no to someone over and over. It makes me resent that person a little for putting me in that uncomfortable position, which is perhaps unfair but still it exists.

You're right, being cooperative and agreeable is very attractive to some people. I think it becomes a problem when you're agreeing to so many things that you are stretched too thin and unable to to give anyone your best attention. Maybe it's like multitasking poorly.

 

[JustADom]

Just tell them to FUCK OFF!!! Bitches.

 

[Curious_in_Cali]

.....

 

[Pachet]

I really hate the way no doesn't mean no to some people (Dom or not). And I hate even more that as women, we are conditioned to accept people pushing, pushing, PUSHING, to the point of being rude, invasive, and possibly abusive. We're taught to accept the above with a smile, and no matter how many times we've politely said "I'd rather not", in the face of still more blatant disrespect, we're STILL expected to smile. And simper. And say "I really can't, I'm so sorry".

I hate that we think that even though someone's being pushy and disrespectful to us, if we stand up for ourselves, we're somehow being rude.

And then, after they push and push and push, and basically MAKE you snap at them, just so they'll get it and stop asking for something you've already said no to twenty times, they'll say you have an attitude.

If someone is disregarding your firm, consistent "no", they're being rude and disrespectful. You have every right to be as firm as possible in your reply to get your message across. That isn't you being rude or unladylike. It's you respecting yourself.

 

[Primalex]

no matter how many times we've politely said "I'd rather not"

There you have quoted the problem. Women say:"Maybe if you can persuade me" and then complain that people try to and of course you are the one with the attitude if you snap after the invitation. No guy in the world ever requested ambiguous answers.

 

[Pachet]

There you have quoted the problem. Women say:"Maybe if you can persuade me" and then complain that people try to and of course you are the one with the attitude if you snap after the invitation. No guy in the world ever requested ambiguous answers.

How does "I'd rather not" translate into "Maybe if you can persuade me"? And how is "I'd rather not", ambiguous? Besides, it doesn't have to be "I'd rather not." I'm a woman. I've gone through this my whole life. A nice firm, polite "no" often gets the same response as "I'd rather not" or "No thank you", or "thanks, but I can't", or whatever polite way to say 'no' you choose.

I have had the following exchange so many times I've lost count:

I'm sitting at a bar, or waiting for the train, standing outside someplace waiting to meet someone, walking down the street - anything.

Guy: Excuse me, but I couldn't help notice you were carrying "The Russia House". That's a great book!

Me: Yeah, it really is, I've actually read it before and I'm re-reading it because I like it so much.

Guy: Are you busy? There's a Starbucks right over there, we could get a coffee and talk about the book?

Me: Sorry, I'm actually on my way home. Thanks anyway though

Guy: Aww, are you sure? We wouldn't take long...

me: Yeah, I'm sure. Anyway, I need to go. Bye (said poliltely)

Guy: Can I get your number then?

Me: No, sorry.

Guy: Are you sure? Can I give you mine?

Me: No, thanks. I've got a boyfriend, actually.

Guy: We wouldn't be doing anything wrong, just talking.

(at this point I am walking up the street, actively trying to get away from him, but he's following me).

Me: I'm really not interested. Sorry.

Him: Are you sure? We like the same books and all..

Me: Yes, I'm sure.

Him: Well let me just give you my number...

Me: No, I don't want it.

Him: Well just take it anyways for now, if you change your mind later you can throw it away...


and on, and on, and onandonandon. It gets to the point where I just want to turn around and scream at them, "LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!".

It's the utter, utter lack of respect - for me as a person, for the multiple "no's" I gave him. The ignoring of the fact that I was trying to turn him down in a polite way at first, because I'm not interested in hurting anyone's feelings. It's just... the disrespect. It makes me angry. I don't see men treat other men like this. If a man asks another man to do something and gets a "no", he doesn't keep saying "aww, come on man, are you sure?". He accepts it.

So why can't women get that same respect? Why must some men push and push and push until I say fuck off, before they take no for an answer?

I agree that some women send mixed signals, but that doesn't excuse someone being an asshole. Really, sometimes it's just best to man the fuck up and say to yourself "hmm.. she said she might want to, then she said no, then she said she might want to again. Seems like a flake with issues, and not someone I want to deal with. Next!" rather than push it and push it til you get "consent", when deep down you KNOW that she was conflicted. Seriously, why even bother with that? Is it desperation? Wouldn't you rather be with a woman whom you know wants to be with you too?

 

[Netzach]

It's totally the job of men not to be assholes, however, there's some judo that works pretty well for me. It's sad that the above exchange needs to be modified, and that anyone should have to think about this this hard, but often we're our own enemies in sea of idiots, too.

I've had success with "be boring."

You're taught to soften everything with conversation and modifiers and giving information. He doesn't need to know any details. Details are seen as invites. Shave off all of your personality, then only a bona fide sociopath will continue and you should run away.

Guy: "Wow that's really great cool blah smalltalk"

Me: Yep. (continue reading)

Guy: Could we go somewhere and get coffee, etc...

Me: (pretend to be so fucking engrossed in book that you didn't hear that. Consider digging for a booger. I'm not kidding.)

Him: Can I get your number?

Me: let out a really dull "huh?" Like you're not the brilliantest bulb in the pack. Not sexy ditzy, I use my East Coast de-nutter accent.

This really should put it to bed.

[At this point, you are married. Never ever tell a lie, right? Just lie! No boyfriends - MARRIED - often this ends this shit.]

If I get snared in with common interests and a moment of having my guard down, I feel perfectly fine collecting a phone number I'm never going to use. He has his delusions intact, I don't have to deal with him.

 

[BiBunny]

What irritates me is how people mistake politeness for flirting. It's like you have to act like an asshole to keep others off your back, and that makes me angry. I don't like to act like an asshole. I know it might surprise some of y'all (haha), but it makes me feel good to be nice to people.

But I hate how a "Hey, how are you?" or a "Thank you" in response to a compliment or even holding the damn door open for someone rapidly turns into something else.

By the way, I should point out that people here say "Hey, how are you?" to random strangers all the time. It may or may not be that way in other places, but it's kind of expected here. And that doesn't bother me at all. I like when I can smile at someone in the gas station and make them smile back. But, goddammit, that is NOT an invitation to hit on me, and people who have lived here for any length of time should know that. Fuck.

 

[BrightlyGo]

What irritates me is how people mistake politeness for flirting.

About the most humiliating moment of my life was when i did make just that mistake.

And, please don't think that i'm being an apologist for the guys depicted in the last few posts, but the shit society puts men through to train them to act the way you're (rightly) complaining about, is pretty egregious, too.

Then there's the whole 'the guy has to make the first move' crap. On average, women are better at assessing the feelings of other people through non-verbal ques than men are. So if you put a man and a woman who are both hot for eachother in a room alone, the woman is more likely aware of what the man is really feeling than he is of her feelings. If efficiency were the goal, the reverse rule of thumb would apply - since she's less likely to screw it up, the woman should be making the first move. Instead, society dictates the clueless guy do it. Then, to further screw up the process, society tells the woman she shouldn't be too mean in shutting the guy down.

i don't understand how anyone could be happy with the status quo.

 

[Pachet]

It's totally the job of men not to be assholes, however, there's some judo that works pretty well for me. It's sad that the above exchange needs to be modified, and that anyone should have to think about this this hard, but often we're our own enemies in sea of idiots, too.

I've had success with "be boring."

You're taught to soften everything with conversation and modifiers and giving information. He doesn't need to know any details. Details are seen as invites. Shave off all of your personality, then only a bona fide sociopath will continue and you should run away.

Guy: "Wow that's really great cool blah smalltalk"

Me: Yep. (continue reading)

Guy: Could we go somewhere and get coffee, etc...

Me: (pretend to be so fucking engrossed in book that you didn't hear that. Consider digging for a booger. I'm not kidding.)

Him: Can I get your number?

Me: let out a really dull "huh?" Like you're not the brilliantest bulb in the pack. Not sexy ditzy, I use my East Coast de-nutter accent.

This really should put it to bed.

[At this point, you are married. Never ever tell a lie, right? Just lie! No boyfriends - MARRIED - often this ends this shit.]

If I get snared in with common interests and a moment of having my guard down, I feel perfectly fine collecting a phone number I'm never going to use. He has his delusions intact, I don't have to deal with him.

I know, you're right... and I have done that before, it's just that sometimes I forget, and sometimes the person actually seems... normal, and I let my guard down a minute. It's true, details are seen as invitations. I need to remember to just ignore them and pretend like I'm slow, because any conversation, even if it's just to tell them you're not interested, just encourages them.

 

[Ahlam]

It's also challenging for some people to accept your "no" for something you've previously agreed to do. A "yes this one time I agreed to do this one thing for you" can turn into an onerous "from now on, I expect you to to this one thing for me whenever I want you to."

 

[Primalex]

How does "I'd rather not" translate into "Maybe if you can persuade me"? And how is "I'd rather not", ambiguous?

What do you think does the word 'rather' mean?




Me: Yeah, it really is, I've actually read it before and I'm re-reading it because I like it so much.
Translation: Hey, you noticed that I'm reading. Great start.

Guy: Are you busy? There's a Starbucks right over there, we could get a coffee and talk about the book?

Me: Sorry, I'm actually on my way home. Thanks anyway though
Translation: What a pity that we didn't met earlier, because if I wouldn't be on my way home already, we could have a great date.

Guy: Aww, are you sure? We wouldn't take long...
Translation: Okay, she has no time. Let's try to squeeze in anyway.

me: Yeah, I'm sure. Anyway, I need to go. Bye (said poliltely)
Translation: Sorry, really no time left anymore.

Guy: Can I get your number then?
Me: No, sorry.
Translation: Sorry, I'm cautious. Do you have other ideas? After all, I've never ever said that I'm totally not interested in you.

Guy: Are you sure? Can I give you mine?
Me: No, thanks. I've got a boyfriend, actually.
Translation: I would do it, but my boyfriend is the problem.

It's the utter, utter lack of respect - for me as a person, for the multiple "no's" I gave him.

Actually you didn't give him a single no. You offered him challenges to solve.

It makes me angry. I don't see men treat other men like this. If a man asks another man to do something and gets a "no", he doesn't keep saying "aww, come on man, are you sure?". He accepts it.

Because the other man does for sure not say:"I would rather not."

So why can't women get that same respect? Why must some men push and push and push until I say fuck off, before they take no for an answer?

Your problem is your inability to properly communicate what you want to say.
This "I have a boyfriend" reply is the prime example for saying something completely useless to a guy if you want to get rid of him - why, if you are not interested in him, do you say that you have a boyfriend and not that you are not interested in him?

 

[Primalex]

What irritates me is how people mistake politeness for flirting.

Is there a difference and if so, where is it?



You know, American soldiers considered British girls to be total sluts while British girls considered American soldiers to be rude assholes? And why?

Because American soldiers considered kissing as part of the early flirting, for British girls it was part of the more serious making out. So, once a soldier managed to kiss a girl, he was often able to go all the way -> British girls are sluts, you barely flirt with them and then you can fuck them (The fact that the big obstacle was the kiss wasn't realized - a girl who didn't want to kiss was just not interested in flirting.)

When a British girl was nice and polite to a soldier and flirting with him, he would try to kiss her as part of the flirting -> American soldiers are assholes who want to fuck you immediately.

 

[BiBunny]

Is there a difference and if so, where is it?

The level of formality, I think.

Let's say that you decided to compliment me on...something. If I say "Thank you" and go on about my business, then that was politeness.

If I say something more like "Thanks! You really like it? That makes me happy!" or something equally inane, then it's more likely that I'm attempting to prolong the conversation in order to...do whatever it is that people do when they flirt. (I'm bad at this.)

And also, it's hard to explain online. I think body language and tone of voice have a lot to do with it, too.

You know, American soldiers considered British girls to be total sluts while British girls considered American soldiers to be rude assholes? And why?

Because American soldiers considered kissing as part of the early flirting, for British girls it was part of the more serious making out. So, once a soldier managed to kiss a girl, he was often able to go all the way -> British girls are sluts, you barely flirt with them and then you can fuck them (The fact that the big obstacle was the kiss wasn't realized - a girl who didn't want to kiss was just not interested in flirting.)

When a British girl was nice and polite to a soldier and flirting with him, he would try to kiss her as part of the flirting -> American soldiers are assholes who want to fuck you immediately.

This, at least, somewhat makes sense. Cultural differences, and so forth.

Everybody laughs at the whole "He ain't from 'round here" schtick that Southerners (supposedly) do, but when somebody who's not from around here breaks one of the unwritten rules, it doesn't bother me too badly. That person just doesn't know the score. It's when people obviously know how it works and are just hearing what they want to hear that it bugs me.

 

[Pachet]

What do you think does the word 'rather' mean?




Me: Yeah, it really is, I've actually read it before and I'm re-reading it because I like it so much.
Translation: Hey, you noticed that I'm reading. Great start.

Guy: Are you busy? There's a Starbucks right over there, we could get a coffee and talk about the book?

Me: Sorry, I'm actually on my way home. Thanks anyway though
Translation: What a pity that we didn't met earlier, because if I wouldn't be on my way home already, we could have a great date.

Guy: Aww, are you sure? We wouldn't take long...
Translation: Okay, she has no time. Let's try to squeeze in anyway.

me: Yeah, I'm sure. Anyway, I need to go. Bye (said poliltely)
Translation: Sorry, really no time left anymore.

Guy: Can I get your number then?
Me: No, sorry.
Translation: Sorry, I'm cautious. Do you have other ideas? After all, I've never ever said that I'm totally not interested in you.

Guy: Are you sure? Can I give you mine?
Me: No, thanks. I've got a boyfriend, actually.
Translation: I would do it, but my boyfriend is the problem.



Actually you didn't give him a single no. You offered him challenges to solve.




Because the other man does for sure not say:"I would rather not."



Your problem is your inability to properly communicate what you want to say.
This "I have a boyfriend" reply is the prime example for saying something completely useless to a guy if you want to get rid of him - why, if you are not interested in him, do you say that you have a boyfriend and not that you are not interested in him?

I DID give him a no. "No, sorry" isn't a no now? The sorry completely negates it? You may have a point on the first two, but not this one. No is no. No is not "do you have any other ideas". If I wanted to do something besides give him my number I would've said something like "sorry I don't give my number out to people I don't know", which CAN be interpreted as "but give me your email or something and we can keep in touch". But "no, sorry", is "no, sorry".

Also, this is just one example. I've SAID "I'm not interested". Straight up. They just ignore it. "Are you sure? We could just..." blah blah blah.

I don't understand the desperation. I"m being totally honest here. Fuck, at this point, even if I DID think he was cute, I'd be turned off by the fact that he just won't stop. And I know somewhere, at some point, his badgering probably DID get him a number... and so now it's his go-to tool to get women - just bug them until they give in.

Also, I will repeat something I said earlier. Anyone with any kind of PERCEPTION, or IQ over say, 105, will comprehend when a woman is trying to turn them down and be polite about it. I hate hurting people's feelings. There is no need to be rude to people... well, you'd think that, but apparently there IS a need, because a polite rejection REALLY means "just keep asking me til I give in". Right?

 

[Primalex]

I DID give him a no. "No, sorry" isn't a no now? The sorry completely negates it?

What did you say 'No', too? To him trying to date you or to giving him your number?

Also, I will repeat something I said earlier. Anyone with any kind of PERCEPTION, or IQ over say, 105, will comprehend when a woman is trying to turn them down and be polite about it. I hate hurting people's feelings. There is no need to be rude to people... well, you'd think that, but apparently there IS a need, because a polite rejection REALLY means "just keep asking me til I give in". Right?

Well, there are two options. You live somewhere in incest land, where everyone is really, really dumb and unable to get what you want to get across...or you are not getting it across.

*shrugs*

 

[Primalex]

This, at least, somewhat makes sense. Cultural differences, and so forth.

And you think between men and women are less...cultural differences?

 

[Pachet]

What did you say 'No', too? To him trying to date you or to giving him your number?



Well, there are two options. You live somewhere in incest land, where everyone is really, really dumb and unable to get what you want to get across...or you are not getting it across.

*shrugs*

I live in San Francisco.

I think we just have a different perception of this topic, and all the discussion in the world isn't going to change that.

 

[Pachet]

What did you say 'No', too? To him trying to date you or to giving him your number?

I said no three separate times, and I said I'm not interested. At this point, the problem is not me, it's the guy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

What did you say 'No', too? To him trying to date you or to giving him your number?



Well, there are two options. You live somewhere in incest land, where everyone is really, really dumb and unable to get what you want to get across...or you are not getting it across.

*shrugs*

Classic gaslighting. Somehow it's her fault that the guy thinks he should barrage her until she magically changes to yes.

I'm sure Primalex thinks he's being clever, but in fact he's just giving us one more example of that same old dreary same old.

 

[BiBunny]

And you think between men and women are less...cultural differences?

I'm not saying that there aren't differences between men and women. Of course there are.

I'm saying that the social contract here says one thing, and everyone knows that, but certain types of people want to manipulate it in hopes of getting what they want, rather than either abiding by it or ignoring it altogether. I would at least have respect for the person who has the balls to ignore it altogether, even if I did think he or she was rude as hell.

And also, please note that I'm saying "people" and not "men" because women are just as guilty of it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And also, please note that I'm saying "people" and not "men" because women are just as guilty of it.

Yep, And you know who really gets shit on? The people who want to talk about this issue and change the contract our for something better.

 

[BiBunny]

Yep, And you know who really gets shit on? The people who want to talk about this issue and change the contract our for something better.

I personally don't have a problem with the contract. I mean, I know some people do, but I don't. Like I said, it makes me happy to make other people smile or whatever. A smile, a nod, and a "Hey, how are you?" as I'm walking past someone in the dollar store does not put me out in any way. I can remember times when I was very ill/tired/depressed/what-have-you, and someone smiled and said "Hey" or whatever to me as I passed. It made me feel better. Maybe I can pay it forward. *Shrug*

 

[Stella_Omega]

I personally don't have a problem with the contract. I mean, I know some people do, but I don't. Like I said, it makes me happy to make other people smile or whatever. A smile, a nod, and a "Hey, how are you?" as I'm walking past someone in the dollar store does not put me out in any way. I can remember times when I was very ill/tired/depressed/what-have-you, and someone smiled and said "Hey" or whatever to me as I passed. It made me feel better. Maybe I can pay it forward. *Shrug*

"Hey how are you" is just fine, I do that all the time-- I say it to people I am not sexually attracted to, even. Old guys, young girls, tired sagging moms. That's what I would call the social contract, and it's not what we are talking about here.

I remember being very tired ill depressed whatever and someone smiled and said "Great tits."

I remember some old man in the subway telling me I was his future wife, and 'introducing me' to his friends as the same.

I remember being chased down the street by a man-- a gorgeous man, in fact-- saying "Hey, I'm talking to you!"
Eventually I turned and said "No, you're shouting at me."
He said "oh my god you're right, I'm sorry-- want to go have a drink?" When I said no thanks, he called me a bitch and a whore.

That's the contract I'm talking about; men succumb to the instinct to own the toys, and women pretend it's okay because that's what boys do.