The girl who never says no

[BiBunny]

"Hey how are you" is just fine, I do that all the time-- I say it to people I am not sexually attracted to, even. Old guys, young girls, tired sagging moms. That's what I would call the social contract, and it's not what we are talking about here.

I remember being very tired ill depressed whatever and someone smiled and said "Great tits."

I remember some old man in the subway telling me I was his future wife, and 'introducing me' to his friends as the same.

I remember being chased down the street by a man-- a gorgeous man, in fact-- saying "Hey, I'm talking to you!"
Eventually I turned and said "No, you're shouting at me."
He said "oh my god you're right, I'm sorry-- want to go have a drink?" When I said no thanks, he called me a bitch and a whore.

That's the contract I'm talking about; men succumb to the instinct to own the toys, and women pretend it's okay because that's what boys do.

Um...ok? I assumed that since you quoted me, you were talking about the same social contract I was talking about.

 

[Netzach]

That was a pretty good breakdown of asshole entitled dude brain at work though.

 

[intothewoods]

There are definitely women out there who are socially clueless but the difference, for me, is that I don't feel threatened.

And I totally do (or did - I'm rarely out alone anymore and besides I'm OLD) what Netz is describing all the time, and people have said that I'm a total bitch, and I always have felt somewhat guilty about that but DUH it's a fucking protective instinct. Sorry, it's so obvious but I never really appreciated how much guilt I've always felt over coming from a place of bitchy distrust with men.

 

[Netzach]

There are definitely women out there who are socially clueless but the difference, for me, is that I don't feel threatened.

And I totally do (or did - I'm rarely out alone anymore and besides I'm OLD) what Netz is describing all the time, and people have said that I'm a total bitch, and I always have felt somewhat guilty about that but DUH it's a fucking protective instinct. Sorry, it's so obvious but I never really appreciated how much guilt I've always felt over coming from a place of bitchy distrust with men.

Have a little ceremony, burn a piece of paper with "guilt" written on it, and say hello to the awesome reputation of "wow I thought you were a bitch, but then I got to know you and you're not." Or just channel your guilt into appropriate Jewish kid places - being nice to randy strangers is not on that list.

I'm totally happy with that. There is nothing bitchy about distrust or wanting to be alone or uninterrupted.

 

[Keroin]

What's interesting about the discussion of rude, entitled men is that since moving to small town/island living I rarely if ever experience this anymore. Why? I don't know. I assume I'm still attractive to men??

But, honestly, in my small towns, I can strike up or participate in friendly conversations with men I don't know and never worry about the unrelenting pick-up fest that used to happen to me in the city. Maybe that's a function of anonymity? Maybe you're less likely to harass someone if you know you're going to run into them on a regular basis in all kinds of environments? In fact, that's one of the things I love about where I live, people love to talk to each other...anywhere. Community is awesome.

As for the rudeness and guilt, I've gotten over it. When I'm in an environment where I don't want to encourage the "won't take no for an answer" men, I just shut right down. Netz is 100% correct - works like a hot damn.

Solution? Want to stay polite with strange men - move to a small town.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If we all move to small towns, they wont be small anymore...

 

[KoPilot]

I guess the big city is the closest thing to IRL internet as you're going to get

 

[Netzach]

What's interesting about the discussion of rude, entitled men is that since moving to small town/island living I rarely if ever experience this anymore. Why? I don't know. I assume I'm still attractive to men??

But, honestly, in my small towns, I can strike up or participate in friendly conversations with men I don't know and never worry about the unrelenting pick-up fest that used to happen to me in the city. Maybe that's a function of anonymity? Maybe you're less likely to harass someone if you know you're going to run into them on a regular basis in all kinds of environments? In fact, that's one of the things I love about where I live, people love to talk to each other...anywhere. Community is awesome.

As for the rudeness and guilt, I've gotten over it. When I'm in an environment where I don't want to encourage the "won't take no for an answer" men, I just shut right down. Netz is 100% correct - works like a hot damn.

Solution? Want to stay polite with strange men - move to a small town.

Sorta. Depends on how well you fit in in other parameters. They have their own weirdness, underneath all the happy functionality.

Nothing in my brush-off technique is *rude* or confrontational - confrontational is too satisfying to guys.

I'm just role-playing a very flat, boring person with no social skills. I'm just morphing into something very neutral and suddenly less appealing.

 

[Netzach]

I guess the big city is the closest thing to IRL internet as you're going to get

This. OMG this. I think NYC was the only reason my head hasn't exploded in the transition from a C64 and Vectrex childhood to the info superhighway.

 

[Keroin]

If we all move to small towns, they wont be small anymore...

Paradox.

I guess the big city is the closest thing to IRL internet as you're going to get

HA! Good one.

Sorta. Depends on how well you fit in in other parameters. They have their own weirdness, underneath all the happy functionality.

Oh sure. But I'm referring to one set of behaviour. Weirdness does not go away in small towns. Weirdness just finds other ways to manifest.

Nothing in my brush-off technique is *rude* or confrontational - confrontational is too satisfying to guys.

I'm just role-playing a very flat, boring person with no social skills. I'm just morphing into something very neutral and suddenly less appealing.

Exactly. But when you're used to be open, friendly, talkative, *not* engaging someone can feel rude and confrontational. Once you realize it's not, then it gets easy.

 

[KoPilot]

Sorta. Depends on how well you fit in in other parameters. They have their own weirdness, underneath all the happy functionality.

Nothing in my brush-off technique is *rude* or confrontational - confrontational is too satisfying to guys.

I'm just role-playing a very flat, boring person with no social skills. I'm just morphing into something very neutral and suddenly less appealing.

Learning how to walk past buskers, panhandlers, and Greenpeace hustlers with a "vegetative" face on was a life skill I learned in NYC. Shitty skill, but omg so important. It can be used on just about anyone!

 

[Keroin]

Learning how to walk past buskers, panhandlers, and Greenpeace hustlers with a "vegetative" face on was a life skill I learned in NYC. Shitty skill, but omg so important. It can be used on just about anyone!

Vegetative face OR Bitchy Resting Face?

 

[KoPilot]

Vegetative face OR Bitchy Resting Face?

Holy shit, best thing.

 

[intothewoods]

Have a little ceremony, burn a piece of paper with "guilt" written on it, and say hello to the awesome reputation of "wow I thought you were a bitch, but then I got to know you and you're not." Or just channel your guilt into appropriate Jewish kid places - being nice to randy strangers is not on that list.

I'm totally happy with that. There is nothing bitchy about distrust or wanting to be alone or uninterrupted.

Definitely. Some jerks act like non-enthused is bitchy...or maybe they can sense I feel a bit guilty? I'd believe that actually.

What's interesting about the discussion of rude, entitled men is that since moving to small town/island living I rarely if ever experience this anymore. Why? I don't know. I assume I'm still attractive to men??

But, honestly, in my small towns, I can strike up or participate in friendly conversations with men I don't know and never worry about the unrelenting pick-up fest that used to happen to me in the city. Maybe that's a function of anonymity? Maybe you're less likely to harass someone if you know you're going to run into them on a regular basis in all kinds of environments? In fact, that's one of the things I love about where I live, people love to talk to each other...anywhere. Community is awesome.

As for the rudeness and guilt, I've gotten over it. When I'm in an environment where I don't want to encourage the "won't take no for an answer" men, I just shut right down. Netz is 100% correct - works like a hot damn.

Solution? Want to stay polite with strange men - move to a small town.

Ehhh, I wish, but I grew up in a small town and there were plenty of entitled jerks around. I really don't encounter it much anymore because I don't go to bars all that often, and I never go to clubs. That's where I typically met those kinds of guys.

Vegetative face OR Bitchy Resting Face?

I actually have that.

 

[Keroin]

Ehhh, I wish, but I grew up in a small town and there were plenty of entitled jerks around. I really don't encounter it much anymore because I don't go to bars all that often, and I never go to clubs. That's where I typically met those kinds of guys.

Well, there's that. The only time I've been to a bar in Nelson was to watch the UFC fights and once to watch my brother do a rap show. Yes, he raps. (And he's very good at it, actually). Anyway, I had no problem at either venue but I chalk that up to the fact that I look like someone's mom now.

But that other poster, Pachet, was talking about being approached on the street and being harassed this way. This is something I can't see ever happening in the small towns in which I've lived. OK, in Nelson they might ask if you have some weed but they'll take no for an answer.

And yes, all small towns are different. Maybe I've just lived in the cool ones?

I actually have that.

HA! Oh...sorry.

 

[Ahlam]

I'm going to practice bitchy resting face in the mirror.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Vegetative face OR Bitchy Resting Face?

Some good points about that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrIegPtey4

And just like women learn that not wearing a default smile among people is bitchy we learn that "No, thank you" or "No, sorry but I can't/don't want to" is bitchy or rude and needs a lot of softening smiling, explaining and even excusing.

 

[seela]

Some good points about that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrIegPtey4

And just like women learn that not wearing a default smile among people is bitchy we learn that "No, thank you" or "No, sorry but I can't/don't want to" is bitchy or rude and needs a lot of softening smiling, explaining and even excusing.

Do you find this not "smiling = bitchy" and "women being asked to smile more" thing relevant where you live, too? Because I can't imagine anyone ever telling someone to smile more, where I live. Not smiling isn't automatically thought of being bitchy, and I'm glad for that.

I usually soften my "No thank you with a smile", but so does J. I sometimes explain, too, really depends on the situation. I rarely feel the need to explain anything to strangers, though.

I've never encountered a situation where someone would have approached me sober and not believe a no thank you really means no thank you. Drunk people are a different animal altogether, and I treat them much like I would a troll - I ignore them and they go away (although I do play with trolls on Lit sometimes, never in real life, though). Then again, it's really not that common for people to ask strangers for a cup of coffee - the few times it's happened to me, it's usually been a foreigner who's done that.

All in all, I feel like women here have much less expectations to act woman-ish than women in the US. I've never been to the States so it's hard for me to compare, but based on what I've read on Lit, there seems to be a difference. It's hard for me to relate to the situations described sometimes. In my relationship we have fairly traditional gender roles, and we've had to explain it a lot at times.

There are very few SAHMs here, except when the kids are really young, and homemakers without kids...well, I've never heard of one. I have a feeling this has something to do with the expected gender roles. But this is kinda OT now.

Interesting video, nevertheless. The idea of having to fix that "Bitchy Resing Face" sounds creepy.

 

[Pachet]

I totally have bitchy resting face. New friends always ask me a few times "are you ok", before they realize that I am, I just don't walk around with a huge grin all the time.

The worst is walking down the street feeling perfectly happy thank you and having some guy (well meaning or otherwise) say "smile, it can't be that bad!"

 

[Keroin]

Some good points about that here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrIegPtey4

And just like women learn that not wearing a default smile among people is bitchy we learn that "No, thank you" or "No, sorry but I can't/don't want to" is bitchy or rude and needs a lot of softening smiling, explaining and even excusing.

Wow. Just wow. I thought the Bitchy Resting Face video was just...funny. People will make a "thing" out of anything, won't they?

ETA: Her comments were very good, and humorous.

 

[Keroin]

Do you find this not "smiling = bitchy" and "women being asked to smile more" thing relevant where you live, too? Because I can't imagine anyone ever telling someone to smile more, where I live. Not smiling isn't automatically thought of being bitchy, and I'm glad for that.

Different cultures have varying interpretations of facial expressions but I agree that the "not smiling = bitchy" is a real thing for women in N. America.

Funny thing is, socialization or not, I'm a natural smiler. It is really rare to find me not smiling to some degree. I'm just, generally, happy. And I know how fake that sounds but it's true. Just walking down the street to buy groceries, I'll always find some little thing--the shape of a cloud, the sound of crows "talking", someone's garden--that makes me feel good about life. I smile when no one's around.

Interestingly, I frown, deeply, when I am writing. For a long time, L would ask me "What's wrong?" when I was working. It was very disconcerting for him. He eventually figured it out and left me alone.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Wow. Just wow. I thought the Bitchy Resting Face video was just...funny. People will make a "thing" out of anything, won't they?

ETA: Her comments were very good, and humorous.

It was funny. But then... some plastic surgeon comes onto mainstream TV show to push snake oil cure? That's not funny.

 

[Keroin]

It was funny. But then... some plastic surgeon comes onto mainstream TV show to push snake oil cure? That's not funny.

Nope. Not funny at all. So the lesson is? We can't even laugh at our own stereotypes?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Nope. Not funny at all. So the lesson is? We can't even laugh at our own stereotypes?

I'm laughing at the stereotype of the greedy motherfucking plastic surgeon. I don't think what he's saying is funny, but he, and his culture, is a buffoon.

 

[Keroin]

I'm laughing at the stereotype of the greedy motherfucking plastic surgeon. I don't think what he's saying is funny, but he, and his culture, is a buffoon.

Ahhh. Yes, fucking plastic surgeon vultures.