Zootonius
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FYI, 50 years ago Edmund Muskie appeared to cry when defending his wife over accusation. It ended the presidential asperations.
The Miseducation of the American Boy
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NightPorter
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That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. How women react to men plays a role in their behavior. That was my only point.
TheRedChamber
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Okay, got to read the piece.
I have to say, this article to me is the very definition of 'woke'. Not that woke is necessarily bad, nor that positive social change can't occur as a result of 'wokeness'. But it did feel like the sort of article I've been reading for nearly a decade and which has all the usual emotional beats from that certain segment of the media which is branded 'woke'
The article admits that in most ways current young males are less sexist, homophobic, and racist than previous generations - but still wants to push further (okay)
There's a vague and nebulous set of problems which when extrapolated mean that the whole universe is crumbling - 'the successful athlete defines success through athletics', 'the less sexist member of a bunch of sexists jocks sometimes wishes the rest of the team was less sexist', 'it sucks to be the only gay person in a group', 'first time sex often goes embarrassingly wrong' (and interestingly the girls here seem to be just as toxic as the boys)
There's a bit of data hinted at in the background, but it's not the focus - the 'real-life stories' are the focus. Having said how tragic it is that men define themselves through athleticism she goes off and interviews all the 'bro athletes' and, surprise, surprise, finds that they're all bros. They tell rape jokes, which she doesn't like (fair enough), but then we get paragraphs on paragraphs on what these rape jokes actually mean to society. How does she know? (For the record, I don't tell rape jokes, especially not in the locker room because I'm very unmasculinely non-athletic, I have occassionally laughted at a Jimmy Carr joke).
Finally, we get to her suggestions. In terms of actual actionable solutions, we have
We end up with a badly defined problem and a barely defined solution.
Anyway, I probably am frothing at the mouth now, so I'll stop. We need new and better models of journalism.
I have to say, this article to me is the very definition of 'woke'. Not that woke is necessarily bad, nor that positive social change can't occur as a result of 'wokeness'. But it did feel like the sort of article I've been reading for nearly a decade and which has all the usual emotional beats from that certain segment of the media which is branded 'woke'
The article admits that in most ways current young males are less sexist, homophobic, and racist than previous generations - but still wants to push further (okay)
There's a vague and nebulous set of problems which when extrapolated mean that the whole universe is crumbling - 'the successful athlete defines success through athletics', 'the less sexist member of a bunch of sexists jocks sometimes wishes the rest of the team was less sexist', 'it sucks to be the only gay person in a group', 'first time sex often goes embarrassingly wrong' (and interestingly the girls here seem to be just as toxic as the boys)
There's a bit of data hinted at in the background, but it's not the focus - the 'real-life stories' are the focus. Having said how tragic it is that men define themselves through athleticism she goes off and interviews all the 'bro athletes' and, surprise, surprise, finds that they're all bros. They tell rape jokes, which she doesn't like (fair enough), but then we get paragraphs on paragraphs on what these rape jokes actually mean to society. How does she know? (For the record, I don't tell rape jokes, especially not in the locker room because I'm very unmasculinely non-athletic, I have occassionally laughted at a Jimmy Carr joke).
Finally, we get to her suggestions. In terms of actual actionable solutions, we have
Nothing concrete at all - what does she want from boys - again, the last thing we were talking about was NOT telling rape jokes. What is this mythical model of manhood neither shaming nor regressive and why are the boys going to like it.
We end up with a badly defined problem and a barely defined solution.
Anyway, I probably am frothing at the mouth now, so I'll stop. We need new and better models of journalism.
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tenyari
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The geek in me is going to pull from 'Nu-Trek' right now so some of you can roll your eyes right about... now.
But yeah - I often thing the modern roles defined as 'new acceptable masculinity' are severely lacking in appeal for both men and women. And I'd not really seen any good counter points until the actor Anson Mount started playing the role of Captain Pike in Star Trek: Strange New World. There's a model of a man who can be sensitive and compassionate, a great leader, and yet also very manly and cause panties to just drop with a glance.
As in... Anson Mount managed to capture all the things folks say a new modern man should be doing, while also being extremely masculine, full of appeal, and yeah...
(I'm usually not a fan of the 'straight white guy hero' but Anson just does it all exactly right while also showing a role model for a modern man that I wish more young men could see.)
And while we're pulling from 'Nu-Trek', I feel the other main 'Nu-Trek' show just took all the things that are 'wrong' with "my side of social politics" and put them on screen. While it does a lot of "representation" it seems to somehow make characters annoying in how they present themselves. Everyone and everything feels preachy and even if it's preaching my own politics it grates on me. Which really bothers me because the cast is like a list of actors I love. But in those roles they just annoy me.
TheRedChamber
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Okay, this is going to be interesting as there's more than one way to 'read' a character in fiction.
But to me, the Pike character basically is Kirk. To the point where we're already in season two and when he hails an enemy vessel and says 'This is Captain X Y of the Starship Enterprise', I still do a double take and go 'Oh, yeah right, he's not Kirk, he's the pilot version of Kirk'. Sure, Pike may have fewer fist-fights with alien lizards and bed fewer alien women (fewer isn't none though), but Anston Mount is channeling that Kirk character most of the time (and he does it brilliantly). So, what do you see as the fundamental new part of the character?
And, just to warn you, I'd noticed the constant cooking. At which point I mentally go 'why has Captain Kirk suddenly turned into Captain Sisko?'
(The less said about Discovery the better, but suffered from characters who should have been 'Ships Doctor who has some gay relationship issues' it ended up as 'Guy with gay relationship issues who occasionally does some Doctoring') - This from a guy who thinks it's shameful that Trek didn't get to a regular homosexual character in a much earlier series.
Stimtheone
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Man, I could go for hours on what is specifically wrong about this from multiple angles with a supporting web of facts and logic. No, not that the idea is wrong, the idea is CORRECT, but why it is as such.
I think a point I had in DE is that at times just a human from 60 years ago might as well be a fucking alien.
I think a point I had in DE is that at times just a human from 60 years ago might as well be a fucking alien.
OverconfidentSarcasm
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I mean... In a way... Yes?
Or, to say it in the words of Chris Rock: "Only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally."
Don't get me wrong, I'm truly happy your boyfriend has such an understanding and caring girlfriend, but at the end of the day, the only reason he can do that is because you allow him to. That's because you care about him. But in order to reach that stage where a woman truly cares about us, we need to put up with some crap from people who don't really care first. Yes, "most well-adjusted guys cry"... but most of them have learned to do that when no witnesses are around.
When I speak with my male friends about this (which is admittedly a rather small sample size but still bigger than the number of examples presented in that article), turns out we all had the very same experiences that started when we grew up and hold true till today.
When we get the flu, it's the women in our lives who tell us the same joke for the millionth time, about how men always act like they're dying when they have a cold.
When we hit a bump in the road or get hurt, it's the women in our lives (minus our mothers) who tell us to "man up".
When we can't open a pickle jar, other guys will give us a look saying "What's wrong with that jar!?", while it's the women witnessing it who start to crack jokes about our lacking strength.
When we encounter a lone crying child on the street and want to comfort it to try and find out what's wrong, we can expect some random woman to inject herself into the scene in an attempt to separate us from that child. Because her first thought when seeing a man next to a crying child is that he's probably the reason the child is crying.
And I AM the guy who got dumped by his girlfriend after she saw me cry because the vet had to put my cat down (which had been with me for eighteen years at the time).
At the end of the day, boys will behave in the way they see girls appreciate. And, let's be honest here, not many teenage girls crush on the 5-foot-tall, pimple-faced, and morbidly obese nerd because the teacher just announced that he got an A in his chemistry exam. But that's mainly because teenagers, in general, don't think about how they want their life to look like ten years from now. They don't think about the value of a mutually supportive relationship, 401k's, mortgages, and whether or not their partner would make a good parent. They pick their partners because either they do something for them or because of their looks. It's only much later, when we move out of our parent's houses and actually have to keep ourselves alive, that we start to change those values.
But, by then, we're too old to be part of that article.
StillStunned
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That's not "women", that's a bitch.
Kumquatqueen
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I don't know - they know who's talking about it, which may be accurate in high school (but I doubt it!) but by the time they get to college age, the guys who treat women like humans rather than slot machines are often doing pretty well.
I suspect there's a huge divide in both US and UK between small-town culture and the people that choose to stay there, and cities. Certainly local (London UK) secondary schools (age 11-18) are pretty diverse with plenty of hard-working boys, the performing arts kids (they seem to model themselves on that US show Glee - is that not a viable option for US kids?), the various gamer geeks, the bodybuilders who are and arent into roadman (wannabe gangsta) culture...
That said, when I last went round America a couple years ago, I was struck by the conformity of most teens in hairstyle and clothing. In particular I had a 14yo English nephew along. He has straight hair in a chin-length bob - think Depp's Wonka. He has never been mistaken once for a girl in the UK. In America suddenly it was happening multiple times a day in a small city and a rural area, and even a few times in NYC.
Luckily he was confident enough to find it hilarious. The lack of sports clothing probably didn't help.
I recall a geeky mate responding to some smug rugby bloke at college, who claimed he could pull a girl every night. Response: I find it easier to convince girls I'm worth fucking *more* than once.
OverconfidentSarcasm
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Yes. But you say that now, when you're probably not a teenager anymore.
StillStunned
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Fair enough.
ETA: I doubt most girlfriends would react that way, even in their teens. The ones that do aren't representative of "women".
Voboy
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Mmhmm. Cute.
I'm not sure how anyone would know that?
I suspect there are plenty of well-adjusted people who don't cry (guys and gals), and plenty who do. It'd be interesting to do that research.
Cagivagurl
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Em,
You are wasting your time....
The cave dwellers are out...
Run for your life.
If they catch you, they will burn you at the stake.
Cagivagurl
Kelliezgirl
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I don't think it is necessarily blaming women, but the author talks about what "society" expects of men, and women make up a significant and in the case of teenage boys, very influential segment of society.
Boys on social media see women talking about how they want a man who is "six foot tall and makes six figures". Why do boys put value on those things? Because women tell them it is valuable/desirable.
Also, I really don't understand the issue with crying.
The article takes it as a given that boys "need" to cry more, but never offers any proof.
Some people cry, some people don't. You can be a perfectly happy, well adjusted person either way.
Frankly, I wish women would cry less sometimes.
Kelliezgirl
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People seem to be discussing the issue in a polite and respectful manner, why must we demean them as "cave dwellers"?
Cagivagurl
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Because they act like it
SimonDoom
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My impression is that the article conflates two issues: one issue is the way boys are raised to show what are considered traditionally "masculine" traits, such as emotional stoicism, and the other is misogyny. I don't think they are the same. I'm an American male in my 50s. I went to college. That article does not describe the way I dealt with my male peers or the way I saw them behave, or the way we talked about women, for the most part. I don't deny that behavior exists; I know that it does, and I know from speaking with my post-college-age children that these problems continue to exist. But I separate those issues from things like emotional stoicism. I almost never cry. I just don't. It's not because I had an overbearing father--far from it. I prefer to be stoic. I see it as a virtue in a man. I don't see good evidence to believe that we'd be better as men if we cried more.
Winter_Fare
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Women have been observed scientifically to suffer less severe symptoms from respiratory infection. It's weirdly true that men get sicker.
I just take the pickle jar from him and open it, and he says that means I have "man hands". He has a soft accountant's hands.
You honestly had a lucky escape, that is some toxic shit.
Everyone does, outside of literal gold diggers, and people in arranged marriages.
XerXesXu
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I know nothing about American boys or girls. I was raised in London in an entirely different culture. So far as crying is concerned, I’ve searched my memory and can’t recall any person, male or female, crying after they grew beyond childhood, at about 10. Crying was for children.
AlinaX
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(I actually loved a lot about Discovery, especially the characters. The logic in the plots could be infuriatingly bad, even by the standards of Star Trek, but for the first three seasons I loved watching it anyway. And then it was pulled off Netflix completely, despite many other Star Trek series still being there; but Netflix has proved several times in recent years that it is hostile to series with queer casts and female leads.)
Devinter
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I certainly do not think it is women's fault how men acts - but of course men are influenced by the people (men and women) around them, and how these people react to things that they do or say. This is especially true for younger boys. Some behaviour is more rewarded than others. Being vulnerable is oftentimes of less value to others than being strong, and it is not rare that this manifests in a tangible way. However, from my personal experience, I find both intelligence and charisma to be highly valued by women - and also increases your status amongst your male peers - and that it is more about being somewhat socially aware rather than awkward that matters. Treat a woman kindly and act a little flirtatious and you'll probably be alright.
That being said, it is not strange that a man could feel inferior if he doesn't live up to the "societal ideal" - and that standard is certainly set by both gender. Below, for example, is a height filter chart form the online dating app Bumble. It shows that if you're below 5'10, only a very small group of female users will even be able to see you on the app at all instead of filtering you out instantly. Imagine already being automatically eliminated by 85% of all women just based on height, and then obviously needing to apply a bunch of other criteria afterwards. (Good looks, socially comfortable, intelligent, caring, ambitious, etc.) - In the end, you end up with rather poor odds of finding a match. And with online dating being on the rise, and approaching women outside isn't appreciated a whole lot, this creates an issue for them.
I believe this pushes some men to think of it as a number's game. "If more women prefer X than Y, I need to increase my X" - whether that is muscles, money, status, and so on. The problem with this is that these men thus do not feel comfortable being themselves, and that they feel that who they are currently "isn't good enough". It's also deeply problematic that what these men think women want more of isn't necessarily true, or a high priority for them. "If more women prefer me to have more money than less money, I should focus all my efforts on getting more money". No. You should focus your efforts on learning how to talk to a woman, and treat her nicely, and she wouldn't care about how much money you have. A lot of men don't understand this, I think.
That being said, it is not strange that a man could feel inferior if he doesn't live up to the "societal ideal" - and that standard is certainly set by both gender. Below, for example, is a height filter chart form the online dating app Bumble. It shows that if you're below 5'10, only a very small group of female users will even be able to see you on the app at all instead of filtering you out instantly. Imagine already being automatically eliminated by 85% of all women just based on height, and then obviously needing to apply a bunch of other criteria afterwards. (Good looks, socially comfortable, intelligent, caring, ambitious, etc.) - In the end, you end up with rather poor odds of finding a match. And with online dating being on the rise, and approaching women outside isn't appreciated a whole lot, this creates an issue for them.
I believe this pushes some men to think of it as a number's game. "If more women prefer X than Y, I need to increase my X" - whether that is muscles, money, status, and so on. The problem with this is that these men thus do not feel comfortable being themselves, and that they feel that who they are currently "isn't good enough". It's also deeply problematic that what these men think women want more of isn't necessarily true, or a high priority for them. "If more women prefer me to have more money than less money, I should focus all my efforts on getting more money". No. You should focus your efforts on learning how to talk to a woman, and treat her nicely, and she wouldn't care about how much money you have. A lot of men don't understand this, I think.
AlinaX
Asymmetric Snowflake
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More on topic: Crying itself is something of a red herring. Society generally sees vulnerability as something to be feared and despised. You see it in the way we treat disabled people and people out of work and even the elderly. The media frames them as a drain on resources, the enemy, as a way to whip us into being predictable and productive and, ultimately, controllable.
There is a cultural ideal, an archetype of a man, one who is calm and proficient in daily life, compassionate within reason but ruthless when necessary, and emotionally available and loving within the sanctum of marriage. We see this superman in countless romantic fictions and worshipped as a hero throughout history. Odysseus was an asshole, but we call him a hero.
There is a cultural ideal, an archetype of a man, one who is calm and proficient in daily life, compassionate within reason but ruthless when necessary, and emotionally available and loving within the sanctum of marriage. We see this superman in countless romantic fictions and worshipped as a hero throughout history. Odysseus was an asshole, but we call him a hero.
onehitwanda
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oh, and the constant use of Spartans as paragons of manhood.
Spartans were widely regarded as complete cunts by the rest of the ancient Greeks.
ToPleaseHim
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Another excellent read on this topic is the book Real Boys by William Pollack. NY Times Archived Chapter 1 Excerpt
I’m sure some of this will be dated as it was published in the late 90s (before cyber bullying and all things internet), but much will still hit.
I’m sure some of this will be dated as it was published in the late 90s (before cyber bullying and all things internet), but much will still hit.
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