The Miseducation of the American Boy

[EmilyMiller]

I suspect there are plenty of well-adjusted people who don't cry (guys and gals), and plenty who do. It'd be interesting to do that research.

To be accurate, it’s about suppressing crying. If someone doesn’t cry, then fine. It’s when they battle against it because they think it’s not allowed.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I recall a geeky mate responding to some smug rugby bloke at college, who claimed he could pull a girl every night. Response: I find it easier to convince girls I'm worth fucking *more* than once.

This so much

 

[EmilyMiller]

Don't get me wrong, I'm truly happy your boyfriend has such an understanding and caring girlfriend, but at the end of the day, the only reason he can do that is because you allow him to.

It’s not like that.

I often get people here ask, “does your bf let you sleep with other people?” This is such a messed up way of thinking. He doesn’t give me permission to do things, I don’t give him permission to do things. We talk and decide together. It’s not about control or power either way.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

 

[onehitwanda]

We talk and decide together.

Honestly, you'd think this was witchcraft. It's exhausting.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

It’s not like that.

I often get people here ask, “does your bf let you sleep with other people?” This is such a messed up way of thinking. He doesn’t give me permission to do things, I don’t give him permission to do things. We talk and decide together. It’s not about control or power either way.

Em

I really have no idea why you get asked a question like that... but I guess people are weird.

What I meant with my comment, though, was not that he needs to ask you permission to cry, if that's how it sounded. I meant that you caring for him is what enables him to cry in front of you.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I really have no idea why you get asked a question like that... but I guess people are weird.

It’s a sex site:

Guy: Hey wanna talk?

Me: Sure, but I don’t sext. Happy to talk. Thought I’d make that clear.

Guy: Why not?

Me: I have a boyfriend / I’m in a relationship / I’m getting married (delete as applicable to context)

Guy: Oh. Congratulations, I guess. Does he let you sleep with other people?

Me: *sigh*

[I had this twice just last week]

What I meant with my comment, though, was not that he needs to ask you permission to cry, if that's how it sounded. I meant that you caring for him is what enables him to cry in front of you.

I know he cried at work when a guy on his team told him that his wife had cancer. They both cried. He cried again when he told me about it.

I don’t know if this is a cultural thing. He’s American and was brought up here. But his parents are British. They emigrated here when he and his sister were kids.

Maybe it’s not “societal” expectations, but what your parents instill in you.

Em

 

[alohadave]

That said, when I last went round America a couple years ago, I was struck by the conformity of most teens in hairstyle and clothing. In particular I had a 14yo English nephew along. He has straight hair in a chin-length bob - think Depp's Wonka. He has never been mistaken once for a girl in the UK. In America suddenly it was happening multiple times a day in a small city and a rural area, and even a few times in NYC.

The US is deeply conservative in many ways, and gender expression is one of them.

Long hair on a man makes you a target. You stand out because men wear their hair short in the US.

If you deviate from that, you stand out.

It's not as bad as it used to be, but the norm is definitely toward the shorter end.

 

[alohadave]

Also, I really don't understand the issue with crying.
The article takes it as a given that boys "need" to cry more, but never offers any proof.
Some people cry, some people don't. You can be a perfectly happy, well adjusted person either way.

The issue isn't strictly with crying. It's not being able to express painful emotions when doing so should be appropriate or helpful.

Pushing it down for so long that you can't express your emotions openly tends to make them come out in unhealthy ways.

There is also a fair amount of shame involved if you expose yourself to the wrong people. I don't think it's as much of a problem as an adult, but for a kid or teen, if you show weakness in front of someone who will taunt you for it, you learn really quickly that showing some emotions leads to ridicule and bullying.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The issue isn't strictly with crying. It's not being able to express painful emotions when doing so should be appropriate or helpful.

Pushing it down for so long that you can't express your emotions openly tends to make them come out in unhealthy ways.

There is also a fair amount of shame involved if you expose yourself to the wrong people. I don't think it's as much of a problem as an adult, but for a kid or teen, if you show weakness in front of someone who will taunt you for it, you learn really quickly that showing some emotions leads to ridicule and bullying.

I don't disagree with most of that, but none of that is a strictly male problem, and none of it really has much to do with crying.

Some people, male and female, aren't really cryers, it's not because of society, it's just their personality. This fixation on crying doesn't help them at all.
There are plenty of healthy ways to express ourselves outside of crying. To use Em's example, if a friend or colleague told me their spouse had cancer I wouldn't cry. I'd certainly offer my shoulder if they needed it and be a supportive as possible, but I wouldn't cry. I've just never found it to be this great cathartic thing.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don't disagree with most of that, but none of that is a strictly male problem, and none of it really has much to do with crying.

Some people, male and female, aren't really cryers, it's not because of society, it's just their personality. This fixation on crying doesn't help them at all.
There are plenty of healthy ways to express ourselves outside of crying. To use Em's example, if a friend or colleague told me their spouse had cancer I wouldn't cry. I'd certainly offer my shoulder if they needed it and be a supportive as possible, but I wouldn't cry. I've just never found it to be this great cathartic thing.

People are different - I agree crying isn’t the issue - suppressing emotions (however they are expressed) is as per what @alohadave said.

Em

 

[lc69hunter]

There's something to the idea that girls have more paths to excellence than boys do. I don't think there's any doubt that modern high school culture finds it MUCH more acceptable for girls to be intelligent and personable, versus boys. A girl can legitimately excel in sports, but she can also stand out in the arts, or academically, without paying a social penalty. A smart, mature boy who can't play sports, in many towns, is going to be taking a backseat to a functionally illiterate, immature boy who can.

It's highly unfortunate, but I find that's still the case even in the "very liberal" part of the country where I live. There's a premium placed on athletic achievement and traditional maleness that is impossible not to notice.

Went to the Symphony Concert yesterday. (have been as season ticket since 1992). I was actually a bit shocked. The Harpist was a fairly young man. I had never seen a male harpist. He played with the grace and beauty of a woman. Imagine what ridicule and crap he endured growing up.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Went to the Symphony Concert yesterday. (have been as season ticket since 1992). I was actually a bit shocked. The Harpist was a fairly young man. I had never seen a male harpist. He played with the grace and beauty of a woman. Imagine what ridicule and crap he endured growing up.

Why assume he did?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

People are different - I agree crying isn’t the issue - suppressing emotions (however they are expressed) is as per what @alohadave said.

Em

Then we should express it that way. We have these linguistical campaigns to stop using certain words, remember a few years ago when it was verboten to refer to a girl as "bossy"?
But none of that addresses the actual issue.
We can ban (and I'm using that in a loose philosophical sense) "bossy" or "Boys don't cry" or "Boys will be boys" or whatever term we want, but none of that actually solves a problem.
The first step in solving a problem is accurately defining it, but we don't do that because pressuring people to stop using words is easier, and more satisfying to some folks darker nature, than actually solving a problem.

 

[StillStunned]

There is also a fair amount of shame involved if you expose yourself to the wrong people.

Just to lighten the mood, I'll add a Beavis & Butthead "huh-huh, huh-huh" here.

 

[Devinter]

Maybe it’s not “societal” expectations, but what your parents instill in you.

I believe nothing plays a greater part than this. However, your parents might still be influenced by societal expectations I suppose.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I believe nothing plays a greater part than this. However, your parents might still be influenced by societal expectations I suppose.

And by their parents…

Em

 

[Comshaw]

To be accurate, it’s about suppressing crying. If someone doesn’t cry, then fine. It’s when they battle against it because they think it’s not allowed.

Em

We've had this discussion before and you so much as told me I was a sad human male because of my viewpoint on crying. RedChamber touched on it with the comment about being vulnerable. The places men have been assigned to go (read WAR in that comment) and the things we are historically assigned by society to do, do not allow for vulnerability. There ain't no room for crying in a foxhole, or any place else for that matter UNLESS you completely trust the one you're with, male or female.

The American male pattern has historically been the anchor point of families, the one who is supposed to be brave, stoic and a rock for everyone around them. How many do you think in that scenario want to see the person considered the center crying? Yeah, not many. That doesn't mean the male gets to make all the rules "give permission" to his mate so to speak. In my life and the way I figured out as I matured, that kind of thing is done as a team, a family team.

There is one other thing, most of what the article is talking about are alpha male attributes. Along with the questions asked, if they had asked about how in reality each young male responded, as well as what you THINK is the best way to be, I believe you would have seen a wide disparity in the answers. Of course, most young males would see the attributes of an alpha as a positive, BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF FEMALES SEE ALPHAS AS DESIRABLE. But not all males want to be that way either. The gamma and beta male personality can't be stuffed into that form and as we grow and mature we figure that out.

Surveys are always fun because most times they are limited in scope and myopic in their conclusions.


Comshaw

 

[EmilyMiller]

We've had this discussion before and you so much as told me I was a sad human male because of my viewpoint on crying.

I’m sorry. Like anyone I can get carried away with an argument. That wasn’t a cool thing to do. Please accept my apology.

Em

 

[StillStunned]

The American male pattern has historically been the anchor point of families, the one who is supposed to be brave, stoic and a rock for everyone around them.

Not American, but pish, tosh and pshaw! How many mothers are the rock of their families? How many mothers keep the family going through whatever crisis is happening? How many mothers hold it together so their families can take comfort in their braveness and calm?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

We've had this discussion before and you so much as told me I was a sad human male because of my viewpoint on crying. RedChamber touched on it with the comment about being vulnerable. The places men have been assigned to go (read WAR in that comment) and the things we are historically assigned by society to do, do not allow for vulnerability. There ain't no room for crying in a foxhole, or any place else for that matter UNLESS you completely trust the one you're with, male or female.

The American male pattern has historically been the anchor point of families, the one who is supposed to be brave, stoic and a rock for everyone around them. How many do you think in that scenario want to see the person considered the center crying? Yeah, not many. That doesn't mean the male gets to make all the rules "give permission" to his mate so to speak. In my life and the way I figured out as I matured, that kind of thing is done as a team, a family team.

There is one other thing, most of what the article is talking about are alpha male attributes. Along with the questions asked, if they had asked about how in reality each young male responded, as well as what you THINK is the best way to be, I believe you would have seen a wide disparity in the answers. Of course, most young males would see the attributes of an alpha as a positive, BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF FEMALES SEE ALPHAS AS DESIRABLE. But not all males want to be that way either. The gamma and beta male personality can't be stuffed into that form and as we grow and mature we figure that out.

Surveys are always fun because most times they are limited in scope and myopic in their conclusions.


Comshaw

Interesting point about power structures and leadership. One of the reasons crying is discouraged in men is because it is a signifier of having lost control of your emotions. That isn't a desirable quality in a leader.

Another interesting aspect of this is that all the people she interviewed self-selected.
That is a pretty good indicator that they aren't representative of the population as a whole.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I will try to steer away from discussing "woke" and its variants in modern society even though this topic touches its ideas on many points.
There is one simple truth here. We are all deeply sexual and emotional beings. We define ourselves through success in those areas, especially in those young years. There is also one simple, albeit a little sad fact of life. At least it is a fact in my eyes, since I saw it through my own eyes when I was a teenager and I've seen it during the last fifteen or so years of being a teacher to teenagers. Those "bad boys" who act like jocks, who show aggression, who act cocky, who do well in sports but suck at science, they are doing so, so much better with the girls than those who do well in science and are generally well-behaved and tempered, often even regardless of their looks. No, it is not the fault of girls. They are who they are, they are attracted to certain traits in men.

To be completely fair here, the same goes for the other side. It doesn't matter how smart, talented, responsible, or good-natured a girl is, she will always lose the fight for male attention against pretty, or even against girls who only act and dress coquettishly and basically lack any other remarkable trait.

It is not the fault of girls for liking bad boys, or guys for liking pretty or flirty girls. We are who we are. Can society really change such primal instincts that define our sexual attraction? I honestly have no idea, but a kind of indoctrination such as some variants of "woke" culture preach is not the answer, that much I am sure of.

To summarize, it is really hard to fight a certain type of behavior that gets rewarded by the attention of the opposite sex, something that is so important to us all, teenagers especially. I hope there is a way to evolve in that regard, but I am not an optimist...

 

[Comshaw]

Not American, but pish, tosh and pshaw! How many mothers are the rock of their families? How many mothers keep the family going through whatever crisis is happening? How many mothers hold it together so their families can take comfort in their braveness and calm?

Don't get your panties in a knot. There are many women who do that. In my own life I've had some strong women that held a family together. I never said the male WAS ALWAYS AND MUST BE the center. I said the American male PATTERN was that way. That is what is EXPECTED of the us, DEMANDED of the male by MOST OF society.

And btw I'm not addressing other countries because I have no knowledge of how it is in other places.


Comshaw

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Not American, but pish, tosh and pshaw! How many mothers are the rock of their families? How many mothers keep the family going through whatever crisis is happening? How many mothers hold it together so their families can take comfort in their braveness and calm?

Why can't people say something positive about men without someone else needing to jump in and scream "but women".
We all get it, Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but backward in high heels!
It isn't a competition, what Comshaw said was 100% accurate as to the ideal of the American nuclear family. That doesn't take away from women's contributions in any way.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I will try to steer away from discussing "woke" and its variants in modern society even though this topic touches its ideas on many points.
There is one simple truth here. We are all deeply sexual and emotional beings. We define ourselves through success in those areas, especially in those young years. There is also one simple, albeit a little sad fact of life. At least it is a fact in my eyes, since I saw it through my own eyes when I was a teenager and I've seen it during the last fifteen or so years of being a teacher to teenagers. Those "bad boys" who act like jocks, who show aggression, who act cocky, who do well in sports but suck at science, they are doing so, so much better with the girls than those who do well in science and are generally well-behaved and tempered, often even regardless of their looks. No, it is not the fault of girls. They are who they are, they are attracted to certain traits in men.

To be completely fair here, the same goes for the other side. It doesn't matter how smart, talented, responsible, or good-natured a girl is, she will always lose the fight for male attention against pretty, or even against girls who only act and dress coquettishly and basically lack any other remarkable trait.

It is not the fault of girls for liking bad boys, or guys for liking pretty or flirty girls. We are who we are. Can society really change such primal instincts that define our sexual attraction? I honestly have no idea, but a kind of indoctrination such as some variants of "woke" culture preach is not the answer, that much I am sure of.

At High School maybe - and yes I’ll admit to liking the types of guys you mention (they didn’t much like me again for the reasons you mention). But college is different. There are still the popular kids (both genders), but more room to find genuine people.

Em