The Miseducation of the American Boy

[Devinter]

And btw I'm not addressing other countries because I have no knowledge of how it is in other places.

I think it's fairly similar in Sweden/Scandinavia where I'm from, but we certainly value intelligence incredibly highly; and more importantly, a person could never be popular or seen as a good role model or anything like that if they weren't nice to others. In American movies, the athletic guys that are dickheads appear to be popular, and the women who act rude is put in a similar role. That would never work here. No matter how good at sports you'd be, or how good looking, and so on. To be accepted by your peers, you have to behave nicely.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

At High School maybe - and yes I’ll admit to liking the types of guys you mention (they didn’t much like me (again for the reasons you mention). But college is different. There are still the popular kids (both genders), but more room to find genuine people.

Em

That is true, definitely, but keep in mind that college and university are great filters. Many of those "bad boys" don't even apply to college, often because their grades suck. Some do get in through sports, but that can't be a huge percentage? The same goes for the flirty girls.

What you said reminds me of a funny anecdote. A woman I know took her 3-year-old kid to a pediatrician and she asked the doctor:
"Please, tell me what is the appropriate age to start educating my boy about how to behave and what to do and what not to do?"
"Oh, I am afraid you are already three years too late..."

College-age might be too late for any significant change

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think it's fairly similar in Sweden/Scandinavia where I'm from, but we certainly value intelligence incredibly highly; and more importantly, a person could never be popular or seen as a good role model or anything like that if they weren't nice to others. In American movies, the athletic guys that are dickheads appear to be popular, and the women who act rude is put in a similar role. That would never work here. No matter how good at sports you'd be, or how good looking, and so on. To be accepted by your peers, you have to behave nicely.

It's more a stereotype than a reality.
Maybe archetype would be a better fit actually. I grew up in a smallish town in a football obsessed part of the country (our HS coach had his own radio show).
The football players weren't the stars of the school who could get away with anything, and the head cheerleader didn't even date a member of the team, let alone the quarterback.
In fact, "dumb jock" clichés aside, our quarterback went to Notre Dame on an academic scholarship and was a super nice guy.
Most of my college friends said similar things.
Hollywood HS and actual HS are two very different things.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That is true, definitely, but keep in mind that college and university are great filters. Many of those "bad boys" don't even apply to college, often because their grades suck. Some do get in through sports, but that can't be a huge percentage? The same goes for the flirty girls.

What you said reminds me of a funny anecdote. A woman I know took her 3-year-old kid to a pediatrician and she asked the doctor:
"Please, tell me what is the appropriate age to start educating my boy about how to behave and what to do and what not to do?"
"Oh, I am afraid you are already three years too late..."

College-age might be too late for any significant change

I had my share of problems with asshole guys at college, but there is a filtering as you say. Plus I discovered girls .

Em

 

[Comshaw]

I will try to steer away from discussing "woke" and its variants in modern society even though this topic touches its ideas on many points.
There is one simple truth here. We are all deeply sexual and emotional beings. We define ourselves through success in those areas, especially in those young years. There is also one simple, albeit a little sad fact of life. At least it is a fact in my eyes, since I saw it through my own eyes when I was a teenager and I've seen it during the last fifteen or so years of being a teacher to teenagers. Those "bad boys" who act like jocks, who show aggression, who act cocky, who do well in sports but suck at science, they are doing so, so much better with the girls than those who do well in science and are generally well-behaved and tempered, often even regardless of their looks. No, it is not the fault of girls. They are who they are, they are attracted to certain traits in men.

To be completely fair here, the same goes for the other side. It doesn't matter how smart, talented, responsible, or good-natured a girl is, she will always lose the fight for male attention against pretty, or even against girls who only act and dress coquettishly and basically lack any other remarkable trait.

It is not the fault of girls for liking bad boys, or guys for liking pretty or flirty girls. We are who we are. Can society really change such primal instincts that define our sexual attraction? I honestly have no idea, but a kind of indoctrination such as some variants of "woke" culture preach is not the answer, that much I am sure of.

To summarize, it is really hard to fight a certain type of behavior that gets rewarded by the attention of the opposite sex, something that is so important to us all, teenagers especially. I hope there is a way to evolve in that regard, but I am not an optimist...

And here we have the biggest reason for anything humans of that age in the survey do what they do: mate attraction. The hormones are boiling in their blood and they have, as of yet figured out how to handle that. Their brains and emotions have yet to reach maturity, but they get this massive amount of hormones dumped into their system that's telling them to seek out the opposite sex. Neither gender knows how to or why. All they know is what works. So if money, attractive looks, and athletic ability are all good attributes to attract the mate they want, they are going to see it as a positive. The ones who get left behind are the ones who are confused by all that, who aren't attracted to what everyone else is. They are the ones who have the most difficult time. Sometimes that difficulty and confusion last well into adulthood before they figure it out. And sometimes they never figure it out because society tells them it's wrong.

Yeah, given the choice to, I would never go back to that stage of life.


Comshaw

 

[Devinter]

Their brains and emotions have yet to reach maturity, but they get this massive amount of hormones dumped into their system that's telling them to seek out the opposite sex. Neither gender knows how to or why. All they know is what works. So if money, attractive looks, and athletic ability are all good attributes to attract the mate they want, they are going to see it as a positive.

I would have to argue that this way of thinking and acting might be more successful and applicable if you only care to find a temporary mate.

From my experience, the people who make genuine connections with each other stay together far longer, and if you're looking for a lasting relationship - which some men do, even at a young age, despite what others might claim - this is not necessarily the best way to go about it.I know two couples that met in high school (or Swedish equivalent) and that got married later, and are still together today. All of them were a little "weird" in the best of ways. Most importantly, they dared to be themselves and that's incredibly important if you're trying to build something lasting.

 

[stickygirl]

"Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants."
Socrates 470BC
Nothing's changed since then. I doubt there's been any substantive change in how societies have applauded athletic, loud mouth men and swooned at attractive, fertile women.

Tears are a different problem and perhaps due to religious straitjackets? The ancient Greeks men cried heroically, but the Mediterranean man has always been emotional.
"In Homer’s Iliad the entire Greek army bursts into unanimous tears no less than three times. King Priam not only cries but tears his hair and grovels in the dirt for woe. Zeus weeps tears of blood, and even the immortal horses of Achilles cry buckets at the death of Patroklos." Do tears of blood count as proper tears though?

Nothing in the Atlantic will convince me society is teetering on the brink of calamity, any more than it has been since Caxton inked up his roller for Le Morte d'Arthur.

 

[StillStunned]

Nothing in the Atlantic will convince me society is teetering on the brink of calamity, any more than it has been since Caxton inked up his roller for Le Morte d'Arthur.

His version made a huge disaster of Mallory's original. A great example of people discovering a new technology and not understanding how to use it.

 

[stickygirl]

His version made a huge disaster of Mallory's original. A great example of people discovering a new technology and not understanding how to use it.

Yes, quite

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

"Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants."
Socrates 470BC
Nothing's changed since then. I doubt there's been any substantive change in how societies have applauded athletic, loud mouth men and swooned at attractive, fertile women.

Tears are a different problem and perhaps due to religious straitjackets? The ancient Greeks men cried heroically, but the Mediterranean man has always been emotional.
"In Homer’s Iliad the entire Greek army bursts into unanimous tears no less than three times. King Priam not only cries but tears his hair and grovels in the dirt for woe. Zeus weeps tears of blood, and even the immortal horses of Achilles cry buckets at the death of Patroklos." Do tears of blood count as proper tears though?

Nothing in the Atlantic will convince me society is teetering on the brink of calamity, any more than it has been since Caxton inked up his roller for Le Morte d'Arthur.

Not up on the Caxton issue, but since you brought the story up, Arthur's fight with Mordred is my all-time favorite passage in all of literature. Damn, Arthur was a badass.

 

[StillStunned]

Not up on the Caxton issue, but since you brought the story up, Arthur's fight with Mordred is my all-time favorite passage in all of literature. Damn, Arthur was a badass.

It's been a while since I read Mallory. I ought to dig out my copy.
That said, I always disliked it for being Frenchified. Lancelot is the great hero, and Gawain becomes a boor and a slob, not to mention how Kay is treated. I prefer the older stories, where Gawain is more heroic, and in some cases very human. Despite being a sun god and all.

 

[AG31]

she will always lose the fight for male attention against pretty, or even against girls who only act and dress coquettishly and basically lack any other remarkable trait.

Nonsense. Not true of men that care about/respect.... hell, know!

 

[Comshaw]

"Children; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room, they contradict their parents and tyrannize their teachers. Children are now tyrants."
Socrates 470BC
Nothing's changed since then. I doubt there's been any substantive change in how societies have applauded athletic, loud mouth men and swooned at attractive, fertile women.

Tears are a different problem and perhaps due to religious straitjackets? The ancient Greeks men cried heroically, but the Mediterranean man has always been emotional.
"In Homer’s Iliad the entire Greek army bursts into unanimous tears no less than three times. King Priam not only cries but tears his hair and grovels in the dirt for woe. Zeus weeps tears of blood, and even the immortal horses of Achilles cry buckets at the death of Patroklos." Do tears of blood count as proper tears though?

Nothing in the Atlantic will convince me society is teetering on the brink of calamity, any more than it has been since Caxton inked up his roller for Le Morte d'Arthur.

I totally agree. The problem as I see it is older adults look at the younger generation and can't see the trees for the forest. They see a few acting out and ignore the majority who are good kids.
And the 'net is responsible for more of that kind of mindset than ever. A story from the East Coast about a kid doing something bad gets broadcast over the entire country. After a few of those people begin to assume that most of the kids of today are bad. As always the squeaky wheel gets the news coverage. And the kids who work for the food bank, those who get good grades, who do things for the community get ignored. And the cry goes up, "This new generation doesn't have manners, is lazy, are all bad, we're doomed!"

All they have to do is look back at their young lives to see the youngins' of today aren't doing anything different than what was done before.

Truthful hindsight isn't something most have.


Comshaw

 

[djrip]

It’s a sex site:

Guy: Hey wanna talk?

Me: Sure, but I don’t sext. Happy to talk. Thought I’d make that clear.

Guy: Why not?

Me: I have a boyfriend / I’m in a relationship / I’m getting married (delete as applicable to context)

Guy: Oh. Congratulations, I guess. Does he let you sleep with other people?

Me: *sigh*

[I had this twice just last week]

I think it's just shorthand for "are you in a relationship where it has been agreed that you can sleep with other people without violating the mutual commitments that have been made?"

 

[Comshaw]

I think it's just shorthand for "are you in a relationship where it has been agreed that you can sleep with other people without violating the mutual commitments that have been made?"

Precisely. It's all in the interpretation. If I and my wife decide and agree we want to allow the other to sleep with outside interests, it's still a matter of me giving her permission and visa versa. So "does he let you..." doesn't mean he has the ultimate say on such things, it could mean it was a MUTUAL decision and permission was given from his side in that context.

Comshaw

 

[BBlaketbv]

From my European perspective the American (sex)education was already wildly lacking and insufficient, and the political fighting is now hurting it even more.

Watch tip: "Modern Masculinity" by The Guardian on YouTube.

 

[AG31]

From my European perspective the American (sex)education was already wildly lacking and insufficient, and the political fighting is now hurting it even more.

Watch tip: "Modern Masculinity" by The Guardian on YouTube.

Any particular episode? It sounded like there were earlier ones.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Just found this thread. Has anyone said boys will be boys yet? Is that a standard excuse for such misbehavior?

 

[onehitwanda]

 

[MillieDynamite]

Wine and popcorn, that just sounds YUCK!

 

[onehitwanda]

Wine and popcorn, that just sounds YUCK!

it's like medicine, the worse it tastes the better it works. Or so my mum always told me, anyway

 

[StillStunned]

it's like medicine, the worse it tastes the better it works. Or so my mum always told me, anyway

I've tried telling my wife the same thing, but she isn't buying it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Not up on the Caxton issue, but since you brought the story up, Arthur's fight with Mordred is my all-time favorite passage in all of literature. Damn, Arthur was a badass.

I subverted all that in my take on the Arthurian myth. Arthur's daughter - Mordred's twin - now she was the badass in my version.

The Dark Chronicles

 

[Voboy]

The issue isn't strictly with crying. It's not being able to express painful emotions when doing so should be appropriate or helpful.

"Should" is carrying a lot of water here.

Nobody can tell me when or how I "should" express my painful emotions. That's my business and not theirs, surely. If they wish to bawl for hours over a painful emotion, more power to them. If I don't, then why would anyone assume I'm somehow flawed or stunted?

Perhaps I'm simply *GASP! SHOCK HORROR!* different from them.

The places men have been assigned to go (read WAR in that comment) and the things we are historically assigned by society to do, do not allow for vulnerability. There ain't no room for crying in a foxhole, or any place else for that matter UNLESS you completely trust the one you're with, male or female.

Actually, the last time I cried I was in a foxhole. And my buddies didn't think any less of me at all, nor I of them. And not because I trusted them, nor even liked them.

 

[Comshaw]

"Should" is carrying a lot of water here.

Nobody can tell me when or how I "should" express my painful emotions. That's my business and not theirs, surely. If they wish to bawl for hours over a painful emotion, more power to them. If I don't, then why would anyone assume I'm somehow flawed or stunted?

Perhaps I'm simply *GASP! SHOCK HORROR!* different from them.



Actually, the last time I cried I was in a foxhole. And my buddies didn't think any less of me at all, nor I of them. And not because I trusted them, nor even liked them.

Then you are the exception, not the rule. And much more self-assured and self-confident than most.

Edited to add: Or it could be, because you didn't like them or trust them, you didn't give a shit what they thought. The human psyche is a strange thing. We can do things in front of those we care little for, or care little about their opinion, that we won't or refuse to do in front of those we respect and love. Humans be strange creatures sometimes.
Comshaw