The Miseducation of the American Boy

[MillieDynamite]

Will do, but first, I'm fishing another one that's been brewing for a long, long, time.

I like writing about older women seducing young men. The me know if you ever finish it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I've never heard men claim it's "unmanly" to cry at funerals and other events of similar importance.

Achilles also cries when Agamemnon calls dibs on the woman he wanted:

"So he spoke, and Patroclus obeyed his dear comrade, and led forth from the hut the fair-cheeked Briseis, and gave her to them to lead away. So the two went back beside the ships of the Achaeans, and with them, all unwilling, went the woman. But Achilles burst into tears, and withdrew apart from his comrades, and sat down on the shore of the grey sea, looking forth over the wine-dark deep. Earnestly he prayed to his dear mother with hands outstretched: "Mother, since you bore me, though to so brief a span of life, honour surely ought the Olympian to have given into my hands, Zeus who thunders on high; but now he has honoured me not a bit. Truly the son of Atreus, wide-ruling Agamemnon has dishonoured me: for he has taken and keeps my prize through his own arrogant act. So he spoke, weeping, and his lady mother heard him, as she sat in the depths of the sea beside the old man, her father."

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Achilles also cries when Agamemnon calls dibs on the woman he wanted:

"So he spoke, and Patroclus obeyed his dear comrade, and led forth from the hut the fair-cheeked Briseis, and gave her to them to lead away. So the two went back beside the ships of the Achaeans, and with them, all unwilling, went the woman. But Achilles burst into tears, and withdrew apart from his comrades, and sat down on the shore of the grey sea, looking forth over the wine-dark deep. Earnestly he prayed to his dear mother with hands outstretched: "Mother, since you bore me, though to so brief a span of life, honour surely ought the Olympian to have given into my hands, Zeus who thunders on high; but now he has honoured me not a bit. Truly the son of Atreus, wide-ruling Agamemnon has dishonoured me: for he has taken and keeps my prize through his own arrogant act. So he spoke, weeping, and his lady mother heard him, as she sat in the depths of the sea beside the old man, her father."

That remarkably misrepresents the issue.
Achilles felt he was disrespected as a warrior because his King took a slave he felt he was entitled to.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That remarkably misrepresents the issue.
Achilles felt he was disrespected as a warrior because his King took a slave he felt he was entitled to.

That's right there in the quote: "wide-ruling Agamemnon has dishonoured me". Not sure what you think has been "misrepresented" here, but the point remains: it wasn't just funerals that Achilles cried about.

 

[Voboy]

That's right there in the quote: "wide-ruling Agamemnon has dishonoured me". Not sure what you think has been "misrepresented" here, but the point remains: it wasn't just funerals that Achilles cried about.

Agamemnon insulted Achilles by taking the spoils to which he was entitled. Briseis represented a prize that Achilles had earned due to his skill at arms. In taking her from him, Agamemnon was slighting his achievements. It wasn't that Achilles "wanted a girl."

Achilles, it must be said, behaves like a spoiled brat, and I'm NOT saying so because he cried a few times. His mom wasn't exactly an expert at letting him find his own way, and forge his own character.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

That's right there in the quote: "wide-ruling Agamemnon has dishonoured me". Not sure what you think has been "misrepresented" here, but the point remains: it wasn't just funerals that Achilles cried about.

You characterized that passage as about "calling dibs on a girl".

 

[Bramblethorn]

Bramblethorn characterized that passage as about "calling dibs on a girl".

Okay, apparently I need to use emojis to signal when I'm being flippant...

Yes, if one were to read that slightly tongue-in-cheek sentence on its own, it would give a misleading idea of what Achilles was upset about.

But I didn't post that sentence on its own. I posted it immediately followed by a quote which makes clear what Achilles was actually mad about. I assumed that people would read the whole post, not just that one sentence, but if I assumed wrong mea culpa.

 

[Voboy]

It's been awhile since I read the Iliad... anyone know whether Achilles' tears are abnormal? Or are many of the Greeks described crying?

I'm now curious.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's been awhile since I read the Iliad... anyone know whether Achilles' tears are abnormal? Or are many of the Greeks described crying?

I'm now curious.

IIRC many others are mentioned as weeping for the fallen, and there are a few who weep from fear at one point or another. Achilles does do quite a bit of the weeping overall, but I'm not sure whether it's intended to come across as "abnormal" or just the consequence of choosing a short and sorrowful life.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Who are both sides targeting at that age? ( as you admit you did? )

That specific immature, hormone blinded age range is going to generate this kind of skewed perception and behavior.

The article was covering “boys” from 16 to 21. I’d expect 19 - 21 yos to be rather different. But YMMV. In fact, on Lit, YMWV.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay, apparently I need to use emojis to signal when I'm being flippant...

Yes, if one were to read that slightly tongue-in-cheek sentence on its own, it would give a misleading idea of what Achilles was upset about.

But I didn't post that sentence on its own. I posted it immediately followed by a quote which makes clear what Achilles was actually mad about. I assumed that people would read the whole post, not just that one sentence, but if I assumed wrong mea culpa.

I love how you completely put your foot in your mouth and your immediate response is to double down.
Why put that "tongue in cheek" sentence anyway? It doesn't help your case, in fact it does the exact opposite.

But since we are discussing mischaracterization, I've never said funerals were the only time they cried. I've simply observed that's the only examples people have used.
And, since we're on the topic, I'm not sure pointing out that the guy who threw his boss under the bus over a woman he wanted to use as a sex slave is a good positive example of masculinity, even if he cries a lot.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's been awhile since I read the Iliad... anyone know whether Achilles' tears are abnormal? Or are many of the Greeks described crying?

I'm now curious.

https://chs.harvard.edu/chapter/par...ii-1-crying-in-the-heroic-space-of-the-iliad/

It's fairly common, scholars debate what it all means

 

[Voboy]

https://chs.harvard.edu/chapter/par...ii-1-crying-in-the-heroic-space-of-the-iliad/

It's fairly common, scholars debate what it all means

Wow. The epigraph and opening paragraph are precisely what this thread is about. Apparently, we're continuing a 2,500 year old debate.

___

Then we should be right in doing away with the lamentations of men of note and in attributing them to women and not to the most worthy of them either, and to inferior men, in that those whom we say we are breeding for the guardianship of the land may disdain to act like these.

Plato Republic III 387e–388a

In Books 2 and 3 of the Republic, Socrates and Adeimantus discuss the program of education that would be implemented in their ideal city. The idea is proposed that the legislature should control the fables and myths of the poets, that they should “edit” a sort of orthodox Homer whose heroes do not cry.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Wow. The epigraph and opening paragraph are precisely what this thread is about. Apparently, we're continuing a 2,500 year old debate.

___

Then we should be right in doing away with the lamentations of men of note and in attributing them to women and not to the most worthy of them either, and to inferior men, in that those whom we say we are breeding for the guardianship of the land may disdain to act like these.

Plato Republic III 387e–388a

In Books 2 and 3 of the Republic, Socrates and Adeimantus discuss the program of education that would be implemented in their ideal city. The idea is proposed that the legislature should control the fables and myths of the poets, that they should “edit” a sort of orthodox Homer whose heroes do not cry.

Yeah, probably an argument they will be having 2000 years from now.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Wow. The epigraph and opening paragraph are precisely what this thread is about. Apparently, we're continuing a 2,500 year old debate.

___

Then we should be right in doing away with the lamentations of men of note and in attributing them to women and not to the most worthy of them either, and to inferior men, in that those whom we say we are breeding for the guardianship of the land may disdain to act like these.

Plato Republic III 387e–388a

In Books 2 and 3 of the Republic, Socrates and Adeimantus discuss the program of education that would be implemented in their ideal city. The idea is proposed that the legislature should control the fables and myths of the poets, that they should “edit” a sort of orthodox Homer whose heroes do not cry.

I think this is telling, and directly applicable to the discussion:

The space of war is thus the only place where it is permissible, if not compulsory, to shed tears. In this respect, the episode involving Thersites marks well the boundary between acceptable, noble tears and tears of weakness, which are admonished and derided.


End quote.

Crying was only acceptable in a specific context, which is the situation we have now.

 

[TheRedChamber]

It’s a more successful strategy to try to get to know girls and to open up about yourself. If that doesn’t work, you’re doing it with the wrong type of girl.

Em

There is nothing, not manifesto promises, not Nigerian Princes, not Creationist literature, that a man is more cynical about than a woman telling them how to get a girl.

It's probably relevant to the thread to note that when I first read this my reaction was 'open up?' what the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

[RejectReality]

The article was covering “boys” from 16 to 21. I’d expect 19 - 21 yos to be rather different. But YMMV. In fact, on Lit, YMWV.

Em

Yeah. With less adult supervision, increased mobility, and access to drugs and alcohol, most of them get even worse.

 

[StillStunned]

It's been awhile since I read the Iliad... anyone know whether Achilles' tears are abnormal? Or are many of the Greeks described crying?

I'm now curious.

A line that's stuck with me from Euripedes's Medea: "For I am a weak woman, with a tendency towards tears." Or alternatively: "For woman is weak, with a tendency towards tears." (In the version I had to translate, either version was correct.)

This is what Medea tells Jason before [spoiler] she goes on a roaring rampage of revenge and kills Jason's bride, the bride's father and her own children by Jason.

 

[EmilyMiller]

A line that's stuck with me from Euripedes's Medea: "For I am a weak woman, with a tendency towards tears." Or alternatively: "For woman is weak, with a tendency towards tears." (In the version I had to translate, either version was correct.)

This is what Medea tells Jason before [spoiler] she goes on a roaring rampage of revenge and kills Jason's bride, the bride's father and her own children by Jason.

Medea is such a cheerful play…

 

[StillStunned]

Medea is such a cheerful play…

Feelgood fun for the whole family!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Feelgood fun for the whole family!

At least no human sacrifice of your daughter to appease the Gods…

Em (who is up way too late and has drunk way too much - what’s new there?)

 

[StillStunned]

Em (who is up way too late and has drunk way too much - what’s new there?)

That was me 7 hours ago. There's nothing new in the world.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I love how you completely put your foot in your mouth and your immediate response is to double down.

Given some of our previous interactions, this is kind of hilarious.

Why put that "tongue in cheek" sentence anyway? It doesn't help your case, in fact it does the exact opposite.

Because sometimes I make the mistake of assuming I'm having an amicable conversation with room for a tiny speck of facetious humour. Don't worry, won't happen again.

But since we are discussing mischaracterization, I've never said funerals were the only time they cried. I've simply observed that's the only examples people have used.

Which is why I then posted a non-funeral example.

And, since we're on the topic, I'm not sure pointing out that the guy who threw his boss under the bus over a woman he wanted to use as a sex slave is a good positive example of masculinity, even if he cries a lot.

You're right, I should have included some kind of disclaimer along the lines of "I'm not by any means suggesting that the ancient Greek model of masculinity was a healthy one".

...oh, wait, I did.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Oh dear - this is me at to be about boys’ emotions, not girls’

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Oh dear - this is me at to be about boys’ emotions, not girls’

Em

I am mostly amused by the use of The Iliad as a credible source of the customs of the time.