The Miseducation of the American Boy

[stickygirl]

I think it helps that I’m the product of a “mixed marriage” - Dad is blue, Mom is red (but more old school red). They seem to find ways to get along. I try to as well.

Em

eeew, you're purple! You should see a doctor about that, but put some ice on it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I am not sure if anyone has pointed out this yet, but it is not as simple as boys crying being OK or not. In a better world, we could all get in touch with our sensitive sides and express our feelings more. I wish that world becomes reality one day, although I am not holding my breath there. But the world being what it is, a cruel, unforgiving place... As a parent, what would you do? Would you teach your boys to be sensitive, to cry when they need to cry; would you cuddle them and protect them every time they need it, or would you maybe teach them to be tough, to stand on their own, to fight if needed... Which one is better for them, what do you think? And I don't mean this in the sense of happiness, but in the sense of survival, of making it in the real world?

 

[EmilyMiller]

Reminds me of a time when I was in my early 20s (a long time ago). I had a live-in girlfriend, and my Mom called to tell me they had to put to sleep my beloved mutt dog that I grew up. When she told me, I could feel the pressure building behind my eyes as I wanted to cry, but the old real-men-don't-cry mentality won over, and I held off the tears. After the call, when I told my girlfriend about my dog, she looked at me incredulously like I had 2 heads. She said something like, "And you didn't cry when your Mom told you?" She was blown away that I didn't cry, and I felt her estimate of me slip a notch. At that moment, I felt like it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Years later, after my first wife divorced me, I was seeing a counselor, and she told me it was ok to cry and how guys would come to see her and it just killed her to see how much guys would fight it to not cry in front of her. She said women could come in and cry their eyes out, but men felt lesser if they did.

We put too much pressure on men

FWIW I’d view my bf as not sharing with me if he didn’t open up about emotions.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

eeew, you're purple! You should see a doctor about that, but put some ice on it.

Not purple. It’s probably quite obvious what the “color” the gay girl is. But I try not to go on about politics. Morality is another matter.

Em

 

[StillStunned]

I wrote a story about a troll. By the end I was fighting back tears. First time I've felt any urge to cry in years.

 

[djrip]

I wrote a story about a troll. By the end I was fighting back tears. First time I've felt any urge to cry in years.

I'm always getting runny eyes reading various things here. Wanda's particularly. Allergy season maybe.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I am not sure if anyone has pointed out this yet, but it is not as simple as boys crying being OK or not. In a better world, we could all get in touch with our sensitive sides and express our feelings more. I wish that world becomes reality one day, although I am not holding my breath there. But the world being what it is, a cruel, unforgiving place... As a parent, what would you do? Would you teach your boys to be sensitive, to cry when they need to cry; would you cuddle them and protect them every time they need it, or would you maybe teach them to be tough, to stand on their own, to fight if needed... Which one is better for them, what do you think? And I don't mean this in the sense of happiness, but in the sense of survival, of making it in the real world?

That's so bleak. You view the world as a battlefield, so you continue to train boys as "warriors", which perpetuates that world view?

I'm glad my dad didn't have that attitude, because it means I don't, and my son doesn't, and seeing my son with his son, he won't either.

 

[policywank]

I am not sure if anyone has pointed out this yet, but it is not as simple as boys crying being OK or not. In a better world, we could all get in touch with our sensitive sides and express our feelings more. I wish that world becomes reality one day, although I am not holding my breath there. But the world being what it is, a cruel, unforgiving place... As a parent, what would you do? Would you teach your boys to be sensitive, to cry when they need to cry; would you cuddle them and protect them every time they need it, or would you maybe teach them to be tough, to stand on their own, to fight if needed... Which one is better for them, what do you think? And I don't mean this in the sense of happiness, but in the sense of survival, of making it in the real world?

In my view it is necessary to teach children of both genders to be resilient. And men do face different reality so arguably a certain different brand of toughness is necessary. But I would also argue that the key element in that teaching is helping them see the world for what it is and preparing them for it. And yes that means deliberate steps to not shelter them from reality - or expose them to it and its consequences - as they are ready.

But there is no empirical basis for equating those things with being unable to cry or show emotion. Who is more resilient and ready to take on the world? A male who cries but faces his fears, understands them and overcomes them or a male who suppresses his emotions and puts up a facade of toughness rather than seeking to understand his fears?

The idea that crying equates with weakness is just a made up social construct. If we are using warrior metaphors it is roughly equivalent to equating retreat with defeat. Retreat might be a sign of defeat just like crying might be indicative of weakness, but any thinking person needs to look at the overall picture rather than those simple equations.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Why assume he did?

Because a harp isn't a manly enough lute?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

That's so bleak. You view the world as a battlefield, so you continue to train boys as "warriors", which perpetuates that world view?

I'm glad my dad didn't have that attitude, because it means I don't, and my son doesn't, and seeing my son with his son, he won't either.

I don't see it as a battlefield. Battlefield is a pretty straightforward place. The world we live in is a nasty thing that can backstab you at any moment. Sure, it is also beautiful in some other ways, but this is about being ready for the nasty bit. I wasn't taught this approach by my parents. They lived in a different, better era and their worldviews were more naive at the time. This is pure me. Also, there is a difference between perpetuating a worldview and just being ready for it. I was brought up with some idealistic values that had no basis in reality, so when the real world started hitting me I wasn't ready for it. I should have been, and that's all there is to it.

 

[AchtungNight]

I’m an American boy, and I can appreciate this thread. I’m also thankful to not have suffered too much from miseducation.

 

[AchtungNight]

I think it helps that I’m the product of a “mixed marriage” - Dad is blue, Mom is red (but more old school red). They seem to find ways to get along. I try to as well.

Favorite moments from the Preacher comic books-

Northern Ireland Kid- “Ever notice how our mom’s Catholic and Dad’s a Proddy?”

His brother- “I… shit, you’re right. How the fuck do they get along?”

First kid- “They don’t always… but you suppose they’re in love?”

***

Hippie woman- “Babykiller!” [spits on soldier who gapes at her]

Her kid thirty some years later- “That’s how my Mom and Dad met up.”

 

[AchtungNight]

Harlan Ellison wrote an essay entitled "The Three Most important Things In Life" He stated they were in order, sex, violence, and labor relations. Sex because without it there are no people and because it is a motivator for so many things. Violence -- not as a participant but rather an awareness that violence can stike us at virtually any time and any place. Labor relations because if you can't work well with others life is going to be that much harder for you. He didn't go into specifics on the first the second he related a tale of random violence breaking out in a movie theater during "Save the Tiger" over a minor noise complaint. The last example he gave is infamous. He was hired by Walt Disney Studios. The first day at lunch he regales his fellow writers with the idea of making a pornographic Disney cartoon where Mickey fucks Minnie in lurid closeups, etc. What NONE of his fellow writers told him was that Roy Disney, Walt's brother was dining at the next table taking it all in. When Ellison finished lunch he found out that his name had been removed from his office door and he was escorted from the building! I think his mantra still holds. The problem is that today's young men have a much more narrow path to manhood than previous generations. There is no defining war, no defining movement, no clear path to manhood. Girls are told they can be anything. Boys are told to be men or else they are gay, betas, or cucks. We need to make clear to boys that men can be anything they want as well and that aging should be a broadening, not a narrowing experience. Men can and should be sensitive. "suck it up" helps no one.

There’s such a thing as toxic feminism too. I know women who have suffered shame for being lesbians, tomboys, and other things. I won’t go into it, but it happens and awareness is important.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Because a harp isn't a manly enough lute?

I don't think your average teenage boy has any awareness that a harp is a "women's instrument".
You're just a kid in orchestra to them.

 

[AchtungNight]

I don't think your average teenage boy has any awareness that a harp is a "women's instrument".
Your just a kid in orchestra to them.

Didn’t Orpheus play a harp? Famous Greek minstrel, if anyone doesn’t know.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Didn’t Orpheus play a harp? Famous Greek minstrel, if anyone doesn’t know.

It is more a reference, going back to the original comment about it, that these days it is exceedingly rare to see a male playing the harp. Harpist? Not sure on that one.

 

[Voboy]

Achilles played the lyre, which 99% of modern humans would identify as a “harp.”

Achilles was a badass.

 

[Devinter]

Because a harp isn't a manly enough lute?

Imagine you take someone to bed - girl or boy - and as you undress them, you notice the red blisters around their sex, and realize they have harpist.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Imagine you take someone to bed - girl or boy - and as you undress them, you notice the red blisters around their sex, and realize they have harpist.

Worst joke ever on Lit. And the competition is strong!

Em

 

[Devinter]

Worst joke ever on Lit. And the competition is strong!

Em

Thank you, thank you. I will wear that as a badge of honour.

EDIT: Let me know when someone dethrones me and I will think of something even worse!

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I don't think your average teenage boy has any awareness that a harp is a "women's instrument".
You're just a kid in orchestra to them.

It was a joke. I never said it was a womans instrument, but yeah, commonly played by women.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Imagine you take someone to bed - girl or boy - and as you undress them, you notice the red blisters around their sex, and realize they have harpist.

If it gives me the lute playing skills I'm severely lacking, I won't mind.

"How are you so good with a sitar?"
"Oh... it's just something I caught on to."

 

[M_K_Babalon]

A lot of this shit comes down to the hedgemony, ie; societal standards and expectations. Men and women have their places. Sometimes it seems like nowadays women have a bit more freedom, or at least less scrutiny. Whatever kinda man you are, you still need to uphold some degree or percentage of typical masculinity. And in some ways, one could call these things generationsl curses.

As far as the crying thing goes; I know I'm not the only one as a kid that was given an extra serving of a beating for crying. Sometimes it's hard for me to even cry alone. I really gotta be fucked up to actually cry. Sometimes I feel stupid for doing it, even though I shouldn't. Then there's the trust issue, who can I trust to even show some kinda emotion around? Once I had a devestating breakup and I guess my friends that witnessed it didn't know what to do, since they never seen me cry before. One of them would just cry out of nowhere from his thoughts, I guess.

 

[StillStunned]

"How are you so good with a sitar?"
"Oh... it's just something I caught on to."

I'm great at playing the air clitar.

 

[Bramblethorn]

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php

"After the funeral games, the men left the assembly and scattered each to their own ship, ready for supper and then their fill of sweet sleep. But Achilles wept in remembrance of his friend, and sleep that conquers all refused to come. He tossed this way and that, regretting Patroclus' bravery and strength, remembering all they had done together and the hardships they had shared, embroiled in war or on the cruel sea. He shed great tears, thinking of these things, lying now on his side, his back, or on his face. Each night he would stagger to his feet, at last, and wander grieving along the sand."

Later, after he kills Hector in revenge for Patroclus' death, Hector's father Priam comes to beg for the return of his son's body; Achilles is moved to tears again, and after agreeing to Priam's request, encourages him to "grieve for him with a flood of tears".

Even in a much more violent age than our own, the Greeks didn't seem to see anything unmanly in the idea of the greatest warrior of his age weeping profusely over the death of his lover cousin and on other occasions. I'm not by any means suggesting that the ancient Greek model of masculinity was a healthy one, but it's a reminder that "boys don't cry" is not a universal fact of history.

(Odysseus is shown as concealing tears in various places, but then he's defined more by his guile than by his fighting skills.)