The Miseducation of the American Boy

[stickygirl]

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php

"After the funeral games, the men left the assembly and scattered each to their own ship, ready for supper and then their fill of sweet sleep. But Achilles wept in remembrance of his friend, and sleep that conquers all refused to come. He tossed this way and that, regretting Patroclus' bravery and strength, remembering all they had done together and the hardships they had shared, embroiled in war or on the cruel sea. He shed great tears, thinking of these things, lying now on his side, his back, or on his face. Each night he would stagger to his feet, at last, and wander grieving along the sand."

Later, after he kills Hector in revenge for Patroclus' death, Hector's father Priam comes to beg for the return of his son's body; Achilles is moved to tears again, and after agreeing to Priam's request, encourages him to "grieve for him with a flood of tears".

Even in a much more violent age than our own, the Greeks didn't seem to see anything unmanly in the idea of the greatest warrior of his age weeping profusely over the death of his lover cousin and on other occasions. I'm not by any means suggesting that the ancient Greek model of masculinity was a healthy one, but it's a reminder that "boys don't cry" is not a universal fact of history.

(Odysseus is shown as concealing tears in various places, but then he's defined more by his guile than by his fighting skills.)

Heroic tears, but as I mentioned before, the Mediterranean peoples are far more demonstrative in expressing their feelings. ( Don't get me started on Spanish soccer supremos )

It's the northern Europeans with all their Lutheran / Protestant / Victorian suppression that was exported with the pilgrims to the US. Because their culture is based around patriarchy ( sorry, yes that word again ) then the men were held to account but if their chattel wives wept and tore their hair, it didn't really matter.

ETA
There is a BBC radio 4 podcast by Natalie Haynes focusing on the life of Demeter. Witty and very funny but may not be available outside the UK...
'Hades conspires with his siblings Zeus and Gaia to abduct Persephone and force her to live with him in the underworld as his wife. Many versions of this story are sanitized for children but the original is not. It is clear that Persephone is tricked and trafficked, that she hates and fears Hades and never becomes accustomed to life among the dead. And that her mother Demeter is furious and grief-stricken.'

 

[Kelliezgirl]

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php

"After the funeral games, the men left the assembly and scattered each to their own ship, ready for supper and then their fill of sweet sleep. But Achilles wept in remembrance of his friend, and sleep that conquers all refused to come. He tossed this way and that, regretting Patroclus' bravery and strength, remembering all they had done together and the hardships they had shared, embroiled in war or on the cruel sea. He shed great tears, thinking of these things, lying now on his side, his back, or on his face. Each night he would stagger to his feet, at last, and wander grieving along the sand."

Later, after he kills Hector in revenge for Patroclus' death, Hector's father Priam comes to beg for the return of his son's body; Achilles is moved to tears again, and after agreeing to Priam's request, encourages him to "grieve for him with a flood of tears".

Even in a much more violent age than our own, the Greeks didn't seem to see anything unmanly in the idea of the greatest warrior of his age weeping profusely over the death of his lover cousin and on other occasions. I'm not by any means suggesting that the ancient Greek model of masculinity was a healthy one, but it's a reminder that "boys don't cry" is not a universal fact of history.

(Odysseus is shown as concealing tears in various places, but then he's defined more by his guile than by his fighting skills.)

I've never heard men claim it's "unmanly" to cry at funerals and other events of similar importance.

 

[TadOverdon]

Boys quickly learn who's getting laid.

They quickly learn who's bragging about getting laid.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Heroic tears, but as I mentioned before, the Mediterranean peoples are far more demonstrative in expressing their feelings. (

It is very country-dependent. Mediterranean hosts a true variety of cultures.

 

[Voboy]

https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Greek/Iliad24.php

"After the funeral games, the men left the assembly and scattered each to their own ship, ready for supper and then their fill of sweet sleep. But Achilles wept in remembrance of his friend, and sleep that conquers all refused to come. He tossed this way and that, regretting Patroclus' bravery and strength, remembering all they had done together and the hardships they had shared, embroiled in war or on the cruel sea. He shed great tears, thinking of these things, lying now on his side, his back, or on his face. Each night he would stagger to his feet, at last, and wander grieving along the sand."

Later, after he kills Hector in revenge for Patroclus' death, Hector's father Priam comes to beg for the return of his son's body; Achilles is moved to tears again, and after agreeing to Priam's request, encourages him to "grieve for him with a flood of tears".

Even in a much more violent age than our own, the Greeks didn't seem to see anything unmanly in the idea of the greatest warrior of his age weeping profusely over the death of his lover cousin and on other occasions. I'm not by any means suggesting that the ancient Greek model of masculinity was a healthy one, but it's a reminder that "boys don't cry" is not a universal fact of history.

(Odysseus is shown as concealing tears in various places, but then he's defined more by his guile than by his fighting skills.)

Excellent example.

And you're right: Greek masculinity was hardly "healthy," since it also included pederasty (voluntary or un-).

It does point out that these ideas change with time and place. It's worth remembering, in a different millieu, that samurai were expected to be skilled swordsmen and decent poets. The European knight, in a more idealized sense, was supposed to be able to handle flowers and poetry as well.

 

[stickygirl]

It is very country-dependent. Mediterranean hosts a true variety of cultures.

Okay, tell me one Mediterranean country that isn't.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Okay, tell me one Mediterranean country that isn't.

The Mediterranean is a big place. There is a notable difference in how they express themselves between Spanish and Italians on one side, and African and Asian Mediterranean countries on the other side, with Balkan countries being somewhere in the middle. Overall, people there are more expressive than in northern, western, or eastern Europe, but it still depends a lot on the specific country.

 

[lovecraft68]

The perpetuating of male victimhood. What a shock.

Poor boys and evil women, all part of the incel manifesto.

 

[stickygirl]

I've never heard men claim it's "unmanly" to cry at funerals and other events of similar importance.

So you're limiting where they can cry in your example?

Maybe part of the problem is that the permission is established through cultural norms rather than an individual's feelings?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

So you're limiting where they can cry in your example?

Maybe part of the problem is that the permission is established through cultural norms rather than an individual's feeling.

No, just observing that many of the examples being provided would be regarded as an acceptable venue for tears in a "Boys don't cry" philosophy.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

The perpetuating of male victimhood. What a shock.

Poor boys and evil women, all part of the incel manifesto.

The perpetuating of female victim hood.
Poor women and evil men.
All part of the radical feminist manifesto.

Ohhh, look we've both made ridiculous statements that trivializes a problem and reduces it to stereotypes instead of trying to understand a different perspective.

 

[EmilyMiller]

They quickly learn who's bragging about getting laid.

This totally.

It’s insecurity and FOMO.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Okay, tell me one Mediterranean country that isn't.

Algeria?

Em

 

[stickygirl]

Algeria?

Em

bosh

 

[MillieDynamite]

And bragging doesn't always mean it's true.

They quickly learn who's bragging about getting laid.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

bosh

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-p...requires-immediate-end-violence-against-women

All that male affection is certainly benefitting women...

 

[RejectReality]

Sure, pretend the shorthand is specific.

Girls aren't to blame for how boys behave, but you can bet your ass the boys would at least fake it if it was a successful strategy.

 

[EmilyMiller]

bosh

I know nothing about Algeria - save its location .

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

Girls aren't to blame for how boys behave, but you can bet your ass the boys would at least fake it if it was a successful strategy.

It’s a more successful strategy to try to get to know girls and to open up about yourself. If that doesn’t work, you’re doing it with the wrong type of girl.

Em

 

[Zootonius]

They quickly learn who's bragging about getting laid.

Funny thing. The first woman I had sex with later bragged to her girlfriends about taking my virginity. (I was her third)

 

[MillieDynamite]

I have an unfinished story about a group of Cougars who set out to find the obvious freshman virgin boys at the local college. They have a kind of cherry-picker club, keeping score with the socially inept, shy geeks and nerds they initiate into all kinds of sex. They are 40somethings hunting 18 and 19-year-olds to add to their collection. I did a Dragnet-style introduction, "These are the predators, three oversexed, sexually aggressive, middle-aged women, who hunt young, unsuspecting, virgin men to add to their collection."

Funny thing. The first woman I had sex with later bragged to her girlfriends about taking my virginity. (I was her third)

 

[Zootonius]

I have an unfinished story about a group of Cougars who set out to find the obvious freshman virgin boys at the local college. They have a kind of cherry-picker club, keeping score with the socially inept, shy geeks and nerds they initiate into all kinds of sex. They are 40somethings hunting 18 and 19-year-olds to add to their collection. I did a Dragnet-style introduction, "These are the predators, three oversexed, sexually aggressive, middle-aged women, who hunt young, unsuspecting, virgin men to add to their collection."

I like writing about older women seducing young men. The me know if you ever finish it.

 

[RejectReality]

It’s a more successful strategy to try to get to know girls and to open up about yourself. If that doesn’t work, you’re doing it with the wrong type of girl.

Em

There's a very specific age range attached to the original article. Who are the majority of girls that same age selecting? You don't get to lump boys together and then single out the 'right girl'.

 

[EmilyMiller]

There's a very specific age range attached to the original article. Who are the majority of girls that same age selecting? You don't get to lump boys together and then single out the 'right girl'.

I think you are making assumptions based on the most visible / “popular” cohort of girls. The problem is if a boy is targeting only them*. Cast the net wider.

Em

* I did this the other way round at high school, I learned from my utter failure and took a different approach in college.

 

[RejectReality]

I think you are making assumptions based on the most visible / “popular” cohort of girls. The problem is if a boy is targeting only them*. Cast the net wider.

Em

* I did this the other way round at high school, I learned from my utter failure and took a different approach in college.

Who are both sides targeting at that age? ( as you admit you did? )

That specific immature, hormone blinded age range is going to generate this kind of skewed perception and behavior.