The validity of online relationships.

[sallythescorpian]

Sally, not to stir the pot, but aside the fact that changes occur in any given relationship... which I certainly agree.

Isn't it honesty and respect that keeps a marriage together? Isn't Hikari right in asserting that it's selfish and cowardly to keep things from your partner, such as the fact you have an online girlfriend you claim to be in love with, while they go on believing they are in a happy and healthy relationship?

I understand the concept of "live and let live" but I do not think that it applies in situations where people are willingly and knowingly behaving in a way that can and eventually will hurt another person. Your entire argument about "tolerance" doesn't read as tolerant at all. It reads as immoral.

And a tad hypocritical because I would be very surprised if you kept company with people that regularly engaged in dishonest and malicious behavior. You may not condemn them as publicly as has been done here, but you avoid them, and that's a judgement as much as this is.

The point I currently making (which I freely admit has wandered away from the OP) was that I disagree with Hikari's assertion that if you know your partner well enough, and they dont have character weakness that are an issue for you, that providing you love one another enough, you can get through anything.

I dont agree. I think all of the above means that you have an excellent basis for things, but sometimes unexpected things happen that DO change people fundamentally - loss of a child, unemployment & poverty, infertility, illness, mental health issues - depression etc, loss of libido, tragedy etc. None of that can be anticipated, and it does change people, and sometimes, two people who ought to be very compatible, who have a good, strong, relationship, can be torn apart by unforseen factors.

That, essentially was my point.

As for my tolerance of people who engage in malicious and dishonest behaviour.... I think you are making reference to people in committed relationships who have an on line boyfriend / girlfriend behind their SO's back....

To me, and this is just my stand point, on line love affairs (for want of a better description) are pretty much in a similar category to having a crush on an actor etc. I can't imagine them being very 'real'. Now, that's not to say they aren't very real to the people that are in them, but for me, I could never take something like that seriously. (I'm not trying to re-ignite an argument here, I am merely stating MY OWN view, as it relates to me).

That said, although its not something I myself would do, I genuinely would not judge someone else adversely for doing so. I don't live there life, I'm not in there shoes, and I certainly wouldn't put myself up as judge jury and executioner! I might be a little disappointed in them, but I certainly wouldn't cut off diplomatic relations with them.

I don't fool around behind my husband's back, either here, or in RL, and to put it bluntly, I would cut off his balls if he did it to me!. It is something I take a dim view of, but even in real life, I know people who have had affairs, etc, and I try not to judge.

To be honest, I am far more likely to avoid maliciousness, bitchiness, and spitefulness. I dislike duality, and there are some people on this site that I avoid as much as possible.

I enjoy Lit as it allows me to combine two of my favourite things - erotica and writing, and that is primarily why I am here. For me, this is escapism, similar to losing yourself in a book, and a good way of blowing off stress.

What you see as hypocritical, I see as minding my own business. Certainly, I am not without my own character flaws, and I truly do subscribe to the Live and Let Live philosophy.

 

[Light Ice]

I just don't understand the lack of moral backbone in that argument. This isn't an indictment of your character, Sal, because I think very highly of you. I just don't see how the position you are taking on this particular issue is anything more than a cop out. It's unrealistic and without principle.

That said, I do agree with you on the nature of relationships. I believe that the factors weighing on a relationship are so diverse, and so extensive, that there is never any real certainty that the person you are with is forever or that the relationship will always be happy.

I think Hikari's approach, however, certainly gives you the very best chance.

 

[Hikari]

Sorry I just think that the way you guys describe unforeseen hardship sounds like you're describing a natural disaster. Maybe the fact I've personally been through a ton of hardship makes my view a bit skewed. Seeing as things have been so fucked up in my past that everything, no matter how shitty, feels like a improvement to me.

It just sounds like a cop out to state every hardship as if an uncontrollable flood has come by and swept your life away. It just seems to lack accountability. There are going to be horrible things that will happen sometimes, but you compromise and work through it where you can.

 

[Light Ice]

Sorry I just think that the way you guys describe unforeseen hardship sounds like you're describing a natural disaster. Maybe the fact I've personally been through a ton of hardship makes my view a bit skewed. Seeing as things have been so fucked up in my past that everything, no matter how shitty, feels like a improvement to me.

It just sounds like a cop out to state every hardship as if an uncontrollable flood has come by and swept your life away. It just seems to lack accountability. There are going to be horrible things that will happen sometimes, but you compromise and work through it where you can.

I'd agree with that.

Again, in most aspects Sally's idea of strain and live and let live are applicable in a relationship. Even healthy.

Just not in this one. Lying. Dishonesty. Cowardice. It's not the circumstance that truly dictates the ebb and flow of a relationship, it's the way the people involved handle those circumstances. It's the decisions they make and how accountable they make themselves. Those things describe the character of an individual. Those things describe the character of the partnership.

Excusing infidelity and dishonesty as circumstantial is wrong. The only circumstance involved is the abject lack of character in the cheater.

Claiming you don't judge, and turning a blind eye to that behavior, isn't "live and let live." Society doesn't function if it's acceptable for everyone to lie and hurt one another. You're simply using a cop out to avoid being envisioned as "mean" to the people who are acting dishonestly.

To claim that you don't judge people is nonsense. Everyone judges people. To claim that you don't tolerate infidelity when it hits close to home, but that you don't feel right judging it in other people's situation, is hypocritical.

 

[Magnes1976]

In my own personal view. Infidelity is unacceptable. I would not accept it in my own relationship and i would not accept it in my friends. The only thing i could do about that was to cut my friends loose though. Being unfaithful stand against everything i believe in. I would not like to be around cheaters.

If my girlfriend cheated on me i would cut her loose as well. The same would apply if she was my wife. The reason of why she cheated would mean nothing to me. I have no interest in why. The important thing is that she did cheat. I understand that hardships can ruin a relationships. You never know where life will take you. Life can take you and your spouse in different directions.

The key is communication. Always talk with your significant other. If the talking stops it may be to late.

 

[sallythescorpian]

Just for the purposes of clarity, I do not condone adultery and I don't accept that it is a cop out, or a lack of moral fibre to refuse to judge others.

I'm not particularly religious, but I do subscribe to the "judge not, lest ye be judged" and "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" philosophy.

I live in a country where lack of tolerance has resulted in bloodshed, misery, and hatred. Young girls have died giving birth to babies in fields, alone, where single mothers have been fired due to the judgement of others, teenage moms forced to leave school. The excuse then was protecting the moral fibre of society. Thank God for the tolerance that is there now.

Morality, in my view, is primarily a personal code of conduct, and I see no reason why I should try to impose my code of conduct on another (save for my children, of course).

 

[girlsmiley]

Claiming you don't judge, and turning a blind eye to that behavior, isn't "live and let live."
You're right, It's more like "yeah, I don't want my head dented in"

I just don't understand the lack of moral backbone in that argument
Of course you don't.

To claim that you don't judge people is nonsense
Utter shit. You're just the type of bloke who's looking for a head denting...



A couple in their 70's are approached by an unfamiliar face at dinner. The unfamiliar old man gets to chatting with the old woman. He says, "It's me! Remember me?! You were in my class back in the 50's. You know me, geez I can't believe it! I see you are still with your husband after what he did 50 years ago. Where are your morals? What's wrong with you? Don't you have any self respect? I know you have 5 grandkids but still, why are you with him after what he did?"

The son overheard the whole conversation and approaches the old "friend"

"Hey mate."

The stranger realises this is Jane's boy.

"Oh, g'day mate. I was just chatting with your mother"

The 40 year old son says, "Yeah, I see that. Come over here mate."

The stranger follows him to another table.

The younger says, "You know mate, in my experience, a holier than thou bloke usually gets his head dented in. And your head doesn't look nice when it's dented."

 

[Hikari]

Claiming you don't judge, and turning a blind eye to that behavior, isn't "live and let live."
You're right, It's more like "yeah, I don't want my head dented in"

I just don't understand the lack of moral backbone in that argument
Of course you don't.

To claim that you don't judge people is nonsense
Utter shit. You're just the type of bloke who's looking for a head denting...



A couple in their 70's are approached by an unfamiliar face at dinner. The unfamiliar old man gets to chatting with the old woman. He says, "It's me! Remember me?! You were in my class back in the 50's. You know me, geez I can't believe it! I see you are still with your husband after what he did 50 years ago. Where are your morals? What's wrong with you? Don't you have any self respect? I know you have 5 grandkids but still, why are you with him after what he did?"

The son overheard the whole conversation and approaches the old "friend"

"Hey mate."

The stranger realises this is Jane's boy.

"Oh, g'day mate. I was just chatting with your mother"

The 40 year old son says, "Yeah, I see that. Come over here mate."

The stranger follows him to another table.

The younger says, "You know mate, in my experience, a holier than thou bloke usually gets his head dented in. And your head doesn't look nice when it's dented."

You know beliefs that can't satisfy proper reason are usually enforced by violence.

My mother stayed in a shitty abusive relationship for years. I kind of wish someone had come up to a table and said that nine years ago, because her staying up rooted the whole family and destroyed most of my respect for her.


Maybe it's best to judge people sometimes. It may not be polite, but manners are mainly about appearance anyway. It's about creating the appearance of being respectful while usually not having beliefs or nature to match such behavior.


Manners are merely this. A man may beat his wife, but hey, he always knows the correct fork to use at dinner! It's about making others comfortable when it suits you to do so. Though it's impossible to live life without offending people, because even the most polite behavior is going to be offensive to someone.


The truth is, that if something looks too perfect, it's probably not. If you can see the serious problems, there are probably worse things taking place that you aren't seeing. Maybe it would be good if the average person stepped in to intervene.


People minding their own business, is not calling the police when you hear excessive screams from children next door, or people accepting "I fell down the stairs" as an adequate excuse for black eyes.


If I scream really loud and the police bust down my door to find me having kinky sex with someone, I'll know someone cares about my safety. I'd rather be inconvenienced than dead.

 

[_Raven_]

I don't want to pointedly call out any post but I do have some things to add to this particular part of the conversation in this thread. There have been some saying things like illness, hardships in your financial status, lack of libido, active career or even infertility are all ways that a marraige can be compromised or fail and in return, make someone feel justified in cheating by having an online "love" or emotional connection behind your SO or spouses back.

I have to call bullshit on this because I tend to agree with the fact that if you are married or in a committed relationship with someone that means through thick and thin. Not just in the good times. Everyone has problems, mountain's to climb and obsticles to to overcome but as a couple you both have to be willing to do the work. When you love someone you work at your relationship. You're honest with your partner and do your best to understand and meet each others needs. It's not easy, especially when you get curve balls thrown at you time and time again.

Integrity to me, is much more important to have than a RP fuck behind your spouse or SO's back just because your too cowardly to be honest to them and yourself. Personally I think that if your spouse is overcome with an illness and fighting to stay alive, heal and recouperate, if you use that as an excuse to leave them or cheat, your a pretty sorry individual. I know from experience with Cherry going through cancer just how hard it is to have your partner struck by illness and the ups and downs that come with it, financial hardships, libido issues, combining that with owning and running my own business and getting full custody of my 4 year old son. It was rough, but I would NEVER, ever had even thought to leave her or cheat on her. That is unthinkable, unforgivable, and I would be less of a man if I ever would have thought myself justified to do anything behind her back due to our troubles. Instead we leaned on each other and fought through it, we didn't give up and take the cowards way of letting it bust us apart because we love each other and are willing to do the work to live our life together in an honest path.

If you are so unhappy in a marriage that your seeking out someone else online to make you feel good, you need to either do the work to fix your relationship or get out of it instead of living the life of a dishonerable person. I don't see how you can live your life being a sneak unable and unwilling to give fully of yourself to your partner like you should because you have a fixation on someone in an online or even RL scenario. You have to have communication and honesty. I just don't understand the need to lie and decieve the person you say you love.

As far as the original reason this thread came about, I do think you can form the beginning of a valid relationship online. But for it to come to fruition you have to meet and see how that person truly is IRL. I believe you can really make connections that are intense and caring, but for it to be a real loving relationship I don't see how that can come about when you haven't even touched that person, held them or actually gone through ups and downs with them IRL. Maybe part of the reason I feel that way is because I'm a very hands on kind of guy, I have to have that loving touch, hugs, kisses and just the closeness of cuddling someone close to feel loves intensity. The warmth of someone's skin is not something you can get online.

 

[girlsmiley]

You know beliefs that can't satisfy proper reason are usually enforced by violence.

My mother stayed in a shitty abusive relationship for years. I kind of wish someone had come up to a table and said that nine years ago, because her staying up rooted the whole family and destroyed most of my respect for her.


Maybe it's best to judge people sometimes. It may not be polite, but manners are mainly about appearance anyway. It's about creating the appearance of being respectful while usually not having beliefs or nature to match such behavior.


Manners are merely this. A man may beat his wife, but hey, he always knows the correct fork to use at dinner! It's about making others comfortable when it suits you to do so. Though it's impossible to live life without offending people, because even the most polite behavior is going to be offensive to someone.


The truth is, that if something looks too perfect, it's probably not. If you can see the serious problems, there are probably worse things taking place that you aren't seeing. Maybe it would be good if the average person stepped in to intervene.


People minding their own business, is not calling the police when you hear excessive screams from children next door, or people accepting "I fell down the stairs" as an adequate excuse for black eyes.


If I scream really loud and the police bust down my door to find me having kinky sex with someone, I'll know someone cares about my safety. I'd rather be inconvenienced than dead.

Hikari. If someone is in an abusive relationship, I try not to be judgemental. I may ask him and/or her if they want my advice/help. In your case I can understand you judging because that's your mum and you want the best for your family You are a part of that family so you have a right to judge.

However, if someone you have no personal ties with says they wish to be/stay married, then that's their decision. You may speak with them, up to you. But let me make this clear, you have no right to judge because you are not personally involved in the decision making process in that marriage. (Don't want you getting your head dented in hun )
If someone you have no personal ties with believes that they are in a relationship then they are. Again, the decision on whether it is a healthy relationship based on the circumstances is not yours.

Funny thing about this thread. It's all about the 'validity' pfft. It doesn't matter whether we think online relationships are valid or not!
A marriage, whether good or bad, is a marriage. A relationship, real life or online, is a relationship. Simple as that.

 

[Hikari]

Hikari. If someone is in an abusive relationship, I try not to be judgemental. I may ask him and/or her if they want my advice/help. In your case I can understand you judging because that's your mum and you want the best for your family You are a part of that family so you have a right to judge.

However, if someone you have no personal ties with says they wish to be/stay married, then that's their decision. You may speak with them, up to you. But let me make this clear, you have no right to judge because you are not personally involved in the decision making process in that marriage. (Don't want you getting your head dented in hun )
If someone you have no personal ties with believes that they are in a relationship then they are. Again, the decision on whether it is a healthy relationship based on the circumstances is not yours.

Funny thing about this thread. It's all about the 'validity' pfft. It doesn't matter whether we think online relationships are valid or not!
A marriage, whether good or bad, is a marriage. A relationship, real life or online, is a relationship. Simple as that.

People often need help getting out of abusive relationships. They feel as though there's nothing else and no alternative. You don't know what it's like until you've seen one from the inside. They might pretend they are okay with it, but they aren't.

Yeah sure, don't call the cops when you know a man is beating his wife next door and verbally humiliating her in public. It's nobody's business but there's right? Who are the cops or friends, or the average person to step in?



Let's step back onto the topic of online relationships for a second.


There are only about three reasons to enter an online romantic relationship.

1. You're too much of a pussy to opt out of your current relationship.

2. You're a societal reject who can't find love in real life for obvious reasons.

3. You believe you are a flawed human being who can't find love in real life.



None of these are really justifiable.

If you're in a relationship you should opt out of that one first, before entering another.

If there are obvious reasons why people don't want you otherwise, you should work on those problems before even attempting to date someone.

If you only believe you are a sucky human being then you obviously have issues with concepts of self image and self worth. These are things that should be set straight before dating another human being. Insecure people tend to be more violent and possessive. So it's pretty fucking important that it's taken care of.


With any of these scenarios, you'd have at best a fuck buddy pen pal relationship on shaky ground. Even if you brought it to real life, those problems would still be there. It can be the perfect formula for a self-destructive real life relationship entirely devoid of honesty, warmth, or chemistry.


So yes online romance can be rewarding and wonderful if maintained by lies, hiding certain truths, and never meeting.

 

[sallythescorpian]

Raven, speaking with regard to my own posts, I feel I should clarify what you have misconstrued.

A while back, it was asserted that marriages only fall apart because couples dont take the time to know each other, and if you totally know each other, you can withstand anything. The point I was making was that while I agree that knowing one another, and being compatible gives a couple the best chance, that people continue to change throughout the lives, and sometimes people do encounter insurmountable problems, and sometime they do grow apart. Its life, it does happen.

I never suggested that if a couple were having difficulties it was okay to hook up with someone else, either in RL or on line! I don't agree with that, but I think that infidelity is something for someone's own conscious, and I don't feel the need to publically cast judgement on others. In the same way, some people have sexual kinks etc that I don't like, but I don't feel the need to point fingers and shout "omg! That's sick!!" It's none of my business.

Hikari, you example of domestic abuse is something that I am familiar with.

But while providing help, resources and support to someone who is in an abusive relationship is good, judging them is not. Judging someone is not the same as helping them. Someone who is the victim of domestic abuse does not benefit from others judging them. A neighbour pointing fingers and complaining about the lack of self respect, the negligence of returning to a situation like that, is being judgemental, but is not providing any support whatsoever. All that judgement does, is force victims to feel they have something to be ashamed of, and make them even less likely to get the practical physical, emotional and financial support that they require. Statistically, women are likely to be assaulted an average of four times before they break out of the relationship.

Finally, back to the original thing about on line relationships I wish to give two examples of people I have chatted with here. I give these examples only as the person involved is no longer on lit.

Any couple need sex as part of their relationship, it is a vital part of any healthy relationship. One guy I know is married for twenty six years. His wife has MS, and sex is no longer possible. He gets his rocks off, chatting to women here. He takes care of his wife, but she is very religious, and would not understand.

Now, according to all of you, he would be a better person if he divorced his wife, leaving her with no insurance, and no one to take care, but once he was divorced, it would be quite okay to have an on line sexual relationship.

For my point of view, I think he is doing the best he can. Sure he could have a RL relationship, sure he could leave his wife, but I think he is doing the best he can in the circumstances.

For the purposes of clarity, I never cybered with this guy, we are friends, that's all.

 

[Hikari]

Raven, speaking with regard to my own posts, I feel I should clarify what you have misconstrued.

A while back, it was asserted that marriages only fall apart because couples dont take the time to know each other, and if you totally know each other, you can withstand anything. The point I was making was that while I agree that knowing one another, and being compatible gives a couple the best chance, that people continue to change throughout the lives, and sometimes people do encounter insurmountable problems, and sometime they do grow apart. Its life, it does happen.

I never suggested that if a couple were having difficulties it was okay to hook up with someone else, either in RL or on line! I don't agree with that, but I think that infidelity is something for someone's own conscious, and I don't feel the need to publically cast judgement on others. In the same way, some people have sexual kinks etc that I don't like, but I don't feel the need to point fingers and shout "omg! That's sick!!" It's none of my business.

Hikari, you example of domestic abuse is something that I am familiar with.

But while providing help, resources and support to someone who is in an abusive relationship is good, judging them is not. Judging someone is not the same as helping them. Someone who is the victim of domestic abuse does not benefit from others judging them. A neighbour pointing fingers and complaining about the lack of self respect, the negligence of returning to a situation like that, is being judgemental, but is not providing any support whatsoever. All that judgement does, is force victims to feel they have something to be ashamed of, and make them even less likely to get the practical physical, emotional and financial support that they require. Statistically, women are likely to be assaulted an average of four times before they break out of the relationship.

Finally, back to the original thing about on line relationships I wish to give two examples of people I have chatted with here. I give these examples only as the person involved is no longer on lit.

Any couple need sex as part of their relationship, it is a vital part of any healthy relationship. One guy I know is married for twenty six years. His wife has MS, and sex is no longer possible. He gets his rocks off, chatting to women here. He takes care of his wife, but she is very religious, and would not understand.

Now, according to all of you, he would be a better person if he divorced his wife, leaving her with no insurance, and no one to take care, but once he was divorced, it would be quite okay to have an on line sexual relationship.

For my point of view, I think he is doing the best he can. Sure he could have a RL relationship, sure he could leave his wife, but I think he is doing the best he can in the circumstances.

For the purposes of clarity, I never cybered with this guy, we are friends, that's all.

Are you fucking serious?

Telling them they are deserving of self-respect and proper treatment isn't helpful? What do you think therapists tell them?

Have you been drinking or something?

Is sense of self-worth not the issue here period? These people in these sorts of relationships must lack real friends that have their back. A real friend is going to notice the abuse and do what they can to stop it. What we have here are women without strong emotional bonds with people. Women like that could use outside help.

Sometimes things are exactly as they appear and people do nothing. They believe they shouldn't judge, but it's the fact that no one steps in that this sort of thing happens and continues.


The idea that we shouldn't judge comes from outdated Judeo-christian dogma which also states that it's okay to sell your daughter into slavery.


We make judgments everyday. It's a natural method of survival. No don't judge the tiger over there! He may not want to eat me. He might want to be friends!


As far as the dude who's wife has MS. He chose to marry a frigid Christian. Even if she wasn't disabled, it's something he'd have to deal with anyway. He chose to marry someone that believes a magical sky daddy is going to be upset if you fuck in a manner displeasing to him.

 

[Light Ice]

Sally, I don't understand your argument about the man whose wife has MS. You are essentially saying it is alright for a very sick woman's husband to lie to her because she is too ill to satisfy him sexually.

That's not something I can sympathize with.

 

[sallythescorpian]

]

Are you fucking serious?

Telling them they are deserving of self-respect and proper treatment isn't helpful? What do you think therapists tell them?

There you go again. Jumping to conclusions. I didn't not say anything of the sort. This is what I said. Try reading it.

But while providing help, resources and support to someone who is in an abusive relationship is good, judging them is not. Judging someone is not the same as helping them. Someone who is the victim of domestic abuse does not benefit from others judging them. A neighbour pointing fingers and complaining about the lack of self respect, the negligence of returning to a situation like that, is being judgemental, but is not providing any support whatsoever. All that judgement does, is force victims to feel they have something to be ashamed of, and make them even less likely to get the practical physical, emotional and financial support that they require.(/B]

Have you been drinking or something?

No. And despite you personal insults, I am trying to avoid dishing out some back. You dont seem to be able to debate something Hikari, without being abusive.

For your information, this is an area I work in, day in, day out, for the past 8 years, so I am speaking from broad experience.

However, I sure you 100% right about everything, 100% of the time.

That's not something I can sympathize with.

I know that LI, and I respect you opinion, although my own differs. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

 

[Hikari]

]

There you go again. Jumping to conclusions. I didn't not say anything of the sort. This is what I said. Try reading it.

But while providing help, resources and support to someone who is in an abusive relationship is good, judging them is not. Judging someone is not the same as helping them. Someone who is the victim of domestic abuse does not benefit from others judging them. A neighbour pointing fingers and complaining about the lack of self respect, the negligence of returning to a situation like that, is being judgemental, but is not providing any support whatsoever. All that judgement does, is force victims to feel they have something to be ashamed of, and make them even less likely to get the practical physical, emotional and financial support that they require.(/B]


No. And despite you personal insults, I am trying to avoid dishing out some back. You dont seem to be able to debate something Hikari, without being abusive.

For your information, this is an area I work in, day in, day out, for the past 8 years, so I am speaking from broad experience.

However, I sure you 100% right about everything, 100% of the time.






I know that LI, and I respect you opinion, although my own differs. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

Because you seem to lack an understanding of the word judgment I will post the definition.

judg·ment 
 
[juhj-muhnt] Show IPA
–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.\

2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.

3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.

4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.

5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.

6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, especially a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, especially a debtor.

7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.

8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.


What part of this outside of divine or legal judgment are you exactly talking about?

What you mean to say is don't make harsh assumptions or blame the victim. A judgment means forming a critical opinion or making a decision based upon gathered information.

We make judgments everyday. They are important.

People can have harsh opinions and not act upon them, but you seem to be instructing us to not form an educated opinion at all. You can have an opinion and not share it.

To say that people do not form educated opinions of others is silly. They do it all the time. To judge means to think critically. To say that you yourself do not pass judgment is most certainly false.


I just want to know whether you are asleep at the wheel when you're typing some of this.

 

[sallythescorpian]

Because you seem to lack an understanding of the word judgment I will post the definition.

judg·ment 
 
[juhj-muhnt] Show IPA
–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.\

2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.

3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.

4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.

5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.

6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, especially a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, especially a debtor.

7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.

8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.


What part of this outside of divine or legal judgment are you exactly talking about?

What you mean to say is don't make harsh assumptions or blame the victim. A judgment means forming a critical opinion or making a decision based upon gathered information.

We make judgments everyday. They are important.

People can have harsh opinions and not act upon them, but you seem to be instructing us to not form an educated opinion at all. You can have an opinion and not share it.

To say that people do not form educated opinions of others is silly. They do it all the time. To judge means to think critically. To say that you yourself do not pass judgment is most certainly false.


I just want to know whether you are asleep at the wheel when you're typing some of this.

I have a degree in English sweetheart, and I certainly dont need you and you on line dictionary to tell me what something means.

Once more very slowly this time. My point was that people who are in a bad situation need SUPPORT- FINANCIAL, PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL. That is what helps them get out, helps them to get to a place psychologically where they realise they can get out.

 

[_Raven_]

Sally, I don't understand your argument about the man whose wife has MS. You are essentially saying it is alright for a very sick woman's husband to lie to her because she is too ill to satisfy him sexually.

That's not something I can sympathize with.

Exactly!!!!!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself. He should be more concerned about his wife than his dick. Plain and simple. If he needs to get off, he can jerk off with out having to lie or cheat on his wife. Her illness is no excuse for him to lie. It just shows what a shady character he has and proves he's selfish.

 

[Hikari]

I have a degree in English sweetheart, and I certainly dont need you and you on line dictionary to tell me what something means.

Once more very slowly this time. My point was that people who are in a bad situation need SUPPORT, FINANCIAL, PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL. That is what helps them get out, helps them to get to a place psychologically where they realise they can get out.

Yeah that and a restraining order...

If you have an english degree, couldn't you have been more specific? You could have said harsh judgment or harsh opinions. An opinion is not necessarily bad on it's own.

The best thing to do is support them and then empower them to stop being a victim, because some people choose to stay victims the rest of their lives. That's something you want to avoid.

In conversation you can say something along the lines of, "Wow your boyfriend/husband is a total asshole! You deserve so much better than that! You can stay at my place till this blows over."

Not so difficult. You make an open offer to help and condemn the correct person in one go.

 

[sallythescorpian]

Okay, I take your points. But a marriage is made up of many components, and sex is one of those, an important part. Sex is a primal drive, not far behind the need for food and shelter.

Surely the selfish thing to do, or the easy thing to do, is to get a divorce. I know I would find it very difficult to be in a sexless relationship. I hope, if I was in that situation, that I would have the strength of character to remain faithful. Raven, you seem to believe that you would, LI likewise.

I hope I could be morally upstanding, if I was in that situation, but I cannot say with certainty that I would. Therefore, I dont pass judgement.

That's where I'm coming from on it.

I know we disagree on this, but life would be boring if everyone felt the same way about everything.

 

[_Raven_]

Surely the selfish thing to do, or the easy thing to do, is to get a divorce. I know I would find it very difficult to be in a sexless relationship. I hope, if I was in that situation, that I would have the strength of character to remain faithful. Raven, you seem to believe that you would, LI likewise.

Not just would, I did. My woman had ovarian cancer, a hysterectomy and two harsh rounds of chemo. She was what was important to me. Sex is a gift, not a priority, and when the one you love is ill, foremost thought in my opinion is caretaking, not sex. Of course I missed it when she was so sick. She gorgeous and sexy as hell. But it would be completely selfish to not think of her first. We aren't even married yet and I would never have been unfaithful. I was raised with morals and values that a commitment is a commitment.

Also just want to add Sally, I'm not trying to come down on you personally and be an ass. Just that going through all Cherry and I did, I know for a fact when you love someone, you just don't give up and go with a dishonest path. It's cowardly. And even if your partner is sick, they still deserve respect.

 

[Light Ice]

Okay, I take your points. But a marriage is made up of many components, and sex is one of those, an important part. Sex is a primal drive, not far behind the need for food and shelter.

I agree with this.

Surely the selfish thing to do, or the easy thing to do, is to get a divorce.

I doubt your understanding of a divorce, Sally. They are almost never easy and they are not always selfish. They are often financially devastating, emotionally devastating, and frequently one of the most stressful things that an individual can go through. It represents the end of a life as it had been planned. It represents the destruction of a home.

But if unhappiness reaches the point that a partner is beginning to look outside the relationship for sex, or emotional support, and being dishonest with the other then it is necessary.

It's selfish to -not- get a divorce in that instance. It's selfish -not- to admit that your interests have fallen somewhere else. It's selfish to lie to your partner for your own happiness while simultaneously denying them a chance for their own. I don't understand how you can fail to see that.

I hope I could be morally upstanding, if I was in that situation, but I cannot say with certainty that I would. Therefore, I dont pass judgement.

That's where I'm coming from on it.

I know we disagree on this, but life would be boring if everyone felt the same way about everything.

But there has to be a moral standard for society to function. This is where I struggle with what you're saying. You seem to believe that any flaw in your character immediately excuses immoral behavior in others. That's an absolutely nonsensical argument.

I, for instance, am not entirely certain that when pushed to the brink I could refrain from harming someone on purpose. (Even to the point of killing them.) I would like very much to say that I would refrain, I'd like very much to believe that there is not a situation that would push me to knowingly kill another person, but I cannot say for certain.

Using your logic, Sally, that means I'm incapable of condemning killing as wrong.

It's nonsense.

Lying to your partner, lying to someone you made a promise to, is wrong. Period. Fucking two women while one is unaware is wrong. Period. Failing to discuss your needs with your partner, out of cowardice, is wrong. Period.

This isn't a huge leap, Sally. This isn't the kind of judgment that speaks of arrogance and intolerance. It's a judgment of moral decency and humanity. It's treat others how you would like to be treated. It's about treating human beings like more than means to an end.

And that's where your argument, to me, is horrific. You're essentially saying that the dignity of a person can be shit on whenever you feel your needs aren't being met. That's awful.

Could you stay in a sexless marriage? That's not the question that is being addressed by your posts. You could easily say "No." and I would understand. I would sympathize. I wouldn't "judge", as you keep putting it.

The real question ,however, is "How would you conduct yourself in confronting a sexless marriage?"

And those are very different questions.

If you would turn to lies and dishonesty to see your needs met, I'll judge your conduct as dishonest. If you address it openly, accept the consequences, and seek your own happiness with courage? I can respect that. I may not do the same but at least I can respect your position.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Hikari]

Okay, I take your points. But a marriage is made up of many components, and sex is one of those, an important part. Sex is a primal drive, not far behind the need for food and shelter.

Surely the selfish thing to do, or the easy thing to do, is to get a divorce. I know I would find it very difficult to be in a sexless relationship. I hope, if I was in that situation, that I would have the strength of character to remain faithful. Raven, you seem to believe that you would, LI likewise.

I hope I could be morally upstanding, if I was in that situation, but I cannot say with certainty that I would. Therefore, I dont pass judgement.

That's where I'm coming from on it.

I know we disagree on this, but life would be boring if everyone felt the same way about everything.

There's lot's of ways to liven your sex life. People are not a naturally monogamous species. The form of family that has been in practice for the majority of human existence has been one man and many women rather than one man and one woman.

If you look at genetics, there are signs of infidelity everywhere. Historically there has never been a time when people didn't cheat on their spouses.

While it may make scientific sense to cheat, it doesn't override the fact that when you marry someone you usually promise to be faithful. People should try to keep their promises to their loved ones.

As far as morals go, it depends on what your morality is. I personally would rather resort to swinging, rather than lose my partner to someone else due to a boring sex life.

 

[Chgris]

But there has to be a moral standard for society to function. This is where I struggle with what you're saying. You seem to believe that any flaw in your character immediately excuses immoral behavior in others. That's an absolutely nonsensical argument.

I, for instance, am not entirely certain that when pushed to the brink I could refrain from harming someone on purpose. (Even to the point of killing them.) I would like very much to say that I would refrain, I'd like very much to believe that there is not a situation that would push me to knowingly kill another person, but I cannot say for certain.

Using your logic, Sally, that means I'm incapable of condemning killing as wrong.

I've refrained from entering this thread at all, but this point just struck me. LI, I can understand your wishing you could say you wouldn't ever kill another person. I even respect it, as your choice.

But, I find it to be something I am opposite on. If someone means to harm me or those I care for, I will stop them. If they keep coming, I will kill them. With hand, blade, or whatever weapon comes to hand. I will put them down. Period.

There are homo sapiens walking this earth who do not deserve to continue to breathe. They are so far beyond the pale that there is no excuse to let them continue to exist.

I can continue to condemn killing. In fact I do, and will intervene if someone is harming an innocent. But there are times when it becomes necessary for the rough men guarding the sleeping citizens to perform their duty.

 

[Hikari]

I've refrained from entering this thread at all, but this point just struck me. LI, I can understand your wishing you could say you wouldn't ever kill another person. I even respect it, as your choice.

But, I find it to be something I am opposite on. If someone means to harm me or those I care for. I will stop them. If they keep coming, I will kill them. With hand, blade, or whatever weapon comes to hand. I will put them down. Period.

There are homo sapiens walking this earth who do not deserve to continue to breathe. They are so far beyond the pale that there is no excuse to let them continue to exist.

I can continue to condemn killing. In fact I do, and will intervene if someone is harming an innocent. But there are times when it necessary for the rough men guarding the sleeping citizens to perform their duty.

There may be horrible people in the world, but not a single person has the right to decide who should die and who shouldn't.

Certainly self-defense is an understandable reason to cause a person's death, but anything else is quite unethical.


We determine a killer's right to live depending on the circumstances of the killing. A soldier and a serial killer do the same job. One is insane and the other is committing what is considered socially justifiable manslaughter. Yet we give one medals and the other a death sentence. Why?


The serial killer destroys a few lives and the soldier destroys many. One is placed on a pedestal and the other is condemned.


The people you kill, supposedly have one life. Now imagine for a moment that there is no afterlife. No pretty clouds or paradise. You are just dead in the ground. It changes the whole game. You aren't sending someone to their maker, you are removing their very existence to suit your own selfish needs.


What then gives you the right to determine a person's worth and right to life based squarely upon their morality?