The validity of online relationships.

[Ahren]

I'm mostly just a shit? Go back and read my posts in this thread. I've justified everything I've said in a pretty calm manner. Fuck off. I'm sick of trying to explain myself to you and everyone here since they'll just plug their ears and refuse to listen.

This forum is full of bad people who have questionable morals yet they want the whole forum to hold hands and fucking sing songs and get along like best friends. So if you argue against anything they say they get all offended.

I can't explain myself further. I never thought I'd have to explain "cheating on your wife is bad."

I'm done. Apart from my RP threads I'm done with this forum period. Congratulations, you all win. I have finally had enough. Have a little party because you got rid of the big bad troll.

I'm not checking this thread anymore. If you want to reply to me so badly, send a PM.

 

[Hikari]

Justify this or sit there and shut the fuck up.



Okay. Question. How long have you been with your partner? I ask because- I know LI's justification and his reasons behind most everything he says. Ahren's mostly just a shit- a smart little shit to be sure- but he likes the challenge of making himself look better than those around him.

But you.. I am curious about. What is at stake here for you?

I don't know about other people but I treat my relationship as if it might not be there tomorrow. I don't believe in taking people for granted.

My current relationship is two years in. I know it will eventually calm down like all relationships do. Such, is the nature of love. When the crazy irrational love is gone I'll still be left with someone I know and trust. Sure, that might all go out the window one day, but we're the kind of people that would be civil about it. It's not like I'm in any sort of rush to be married either. We're both really understanding and flexible people that get along and work through problems really well. We're not a perfect couple, but we accept each other's flaws.

However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the future of a marriage rests solely on the kind of person you choose to spend your life with.

There is not a single person with a failed marriage that had zero warning signs in the beginning. Lots of red flags will be present, but you're usually far too close to the situation to notice on your own. Then friends and family members tend to chicken out about telling you the shit they've noticed about your partner.

People don't just magically morph into complete douchebags after a couple of years. The only thing that really tends to change is perspective, allowing you to really see the person you married without frills.

If you commit to someone, you'd better be certain that they are worth it.

 

[Light Ice]

You're right. But much of the dishonesty in monogamous relationships is centered around the fact that people aren't honest with their partners.

This is one of the most retarded statements I have ever read on here and I am utterly shocked that it's coming from you. "Much of the dishonesty in monogamous relationships is centered around the fact that people aren't honest with their partners."

No shit.

Just because we have that "one true love" doesn't mean we don't want to fuc that hot piece of ass that just walked by. We are human. Period. Fuck LI, I bet you aren't always 100% honest with your partner, and if you told me that you were, I would call you a fucking liar. Cause you would be.

You believe in "one true love" but live a polyamorous lifestyle? What the fuck?! I live a monogamous lifestyle and I -don't- believe in one true love.

And I am 100% honest with my partner. Always.

We can't always be totally honest with our partners and sometimes we don't want them to know our proclivities, either out of fear of judgement or it being an unsafe environment.

No, this is absolutely not the case. This is the most tragic statement that has been made here. The entire point of finding a partner is finding a person whom we feel comfortable being honest with and living our lives besides. Is it easy? No. Are there a great deal of hurtles in the way, natural and unnatural? Yes.

Do most people settle for less than that? Absolutely. And I'm not talking about divorced people. There are a ton of people in lifelong relationships who cannot entirely trust their partners, don't feel that level of comfort to even attempt to, or are flat out unhappy.

But that doesn't make cheating on your partner or lying to them right. It certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible. And it absolutely does not mean it's not something to aspire to for yourself. Your argument here isn't about reality. It's about giving up.

And sometimes, we have to lie because we just aren't ready for our partners to know our thoughts. It took me months of preparing to have a discussion about being poly with Zom because, my head just wasn't wrapped around it yet. And when I finally did tell him, I ended up giving him an ultimatum even though I never intended that to be the case.

So yes. Sometimes you have to lie to your partner.

No, you don't have to lie to your partner. The fact Zom was open to it and stayed with you, and supported you, shows that you did not -have- to lie to your partner. You chose to lie to your partner because you were afraid. That's often the case with dishonesty (but not always).

And seriously- I'd bet most of the people who are being lied to- are pretty aware that they are being lied to, even if they can't admit it to themselves. And maybe that's fine for them.

That might be the case.

Case in point- FD's wife- ten to one odds that she knows something is up. But I bet she just doesn't want to fuck with it, or she doesn't care. Because maybe she's got something going on too. Who the fuck knows?

That doesn't make it right to be dishonest. Are you fucking kidding me? Did you really just make that a justification for cheating on his wife?

"She probably kinda maybe knows he's fucking around so clearly it's OK if he does!"

That's fucking retarded, Ausus. It's not just retarded but it's fucking scary retarded coming from someone I -know- values honesty and open communication in their own relationship.

Yes. Honesty is always the best bet. And the lying to your partner is a bad fucking idea. But then so is judging others based on your own narrow perceptions of black and white/right and wrong.

They're called principles. We judge people based on our own in order to surround ourselves with people with similar ones. That's life. The fact you're attempting to pretend that you don't do that is not only blatantly dishonest (or delusional if you somehow believe it) but absolutely hypocritical. Earlier in the thread you and I were on the absolute same page making fun of, and judging, Grant and Yeishia for their retarded online fantasy love.

Now, suddenly, you're telling people that judging anyone based on your own values is a "bad fucking idea".

I like you. I need to state that openly because I've been brutally critical of your last few posts. The truth of the matter, however, is that you started this thread with the idea it would become openly contentious and acted openly contentious yourself.

You've failed to read most of the posts you're attempting to address.

You've made outright nonsensical posts.

You've absolutely discarded any attempts at approaching this topic with logic, or reason, or more importantly consistency.

And you've failed to even effectively convey your own value system.

The truth of the matter is that if you really believe it's excusable to lie to people based on your own personal circumstances - you're completely fucked as a person. We all have circumstances in which we are tempted to lie. All of us lie in our youth. Most people continue to lie past adulthood do to weaknesses in their character or an abject hole in their principles (which is what your argument would suggest you have).

And you're right, they might not share my own principles and justify their dishonesty that way.

But most of us grow as people throughout our lives and begin to look for people, places, and happiness in life that doesn't require us to be dishonest. Most people dislike lying, find it disgusting, and embrace the truth. Most people don't feel justified robbing other people of their happiness for their own selfish motivations. Most people don't surround ourselves with people we cannot trust or do not care to trust, and call them friends.

That's just plain fucking reason.

If Zom was a completely dishonest person than I doubt you'd love him. I doubt you ever would have come to terms feeling comfortable enough to approach him about your existence (or decision to become) polyamorous. And I doubt very much his companionship and partnership would offer you any consolation or comfort when you required it.

You speak as though dishonesty is somehow tantamount to security.

That's just not the fucking truth.

And I can't really believe the way you've misrepresented your own value system in this threat. I've no idea what threw you so badly off your own emotional feet that you've said some of this shit but I know, through our conversations and most of your posts, that you don't even believe half the shit you're espousing.

 

[1FreakyGirl]

Who the fuck cares?! Do you all read what you're writing? And if you do, do you really 'hear' what's being written? NO.

Worry about your own life. Worry about your own spouse. Worry about your own love. A little thing called Karma is sure to surface in the end.

 

[grant_s]

There is something that really astounds me.

People here judge cheating and lying, yet advocate divorce as if it were a option and solution to all.

I know a couple, and despite the man being a total shit to his wife, she stays with him. If you ask her why, she will look you in the eye and tell you she can't, she made a vow before God, "till death do you part".

If she were to divorce, in the Catholic church, she will never be allowed to partake in Holy Communion, and yes, to some people, that is worse than anything life throws at them.

So basically, divorce is not such an option that it is being branded, and you should not judge people so lightly.

 

[orgasmsgalore]

I consider some people online as friends. I consider them real. I look forward to seeing them online. I realize many look at people online as losers who don't matter. And I suppose if you lie and carry on some online persona you wouldn't think anyone online is real because you aren't being.

 

[Britwitch]

There is something that really astounds me.

People here judge cheating and lying, yet advocate divorce as if it were a option and solution to all.

I know a couple, and despite the man being a total shit to his wife, she stays with him. If you ask her why, she will look you in the eye and tell you she can't, she made a vow before God, "till death do you part".

If she were to divorce, in the Catholic church, she will never be allowed to partake in Holy Communion, and yes, to some people, that is worse than anything life throws at them.

So basically, divorce is not such an option that it is being branded, and you should not judge people so lightly.

Fair point, for those so attached to their religion and beliefs, divorce might not be an option. It's true that in many cultures it is looked down upon and has stigma attached. Divorce can be messy when children are involved and I think we all know some unhappily married couples staying together for reasons greater than themselves.

However, to refer back to what has been talked about with regards to cheating and lying to your partner, oddly enough I'm not a Catholic but I'm fairly certain there are also vows about 'forsaking all others, be faithful to him/her' or 'honouring her/him all the days of my life' within the marriage ceremony.

I'm therefore assuming she does not/would never 'mess around' either online or in the RW, if she did, religious beliefs aside, she would be liable to be judged as everyone else is. You have to agree with that surely?

Only I'm not sure why you brought up this as it kinda sounds like you're trying to make an example for why people shouldn't judge those that lie and cheat rather than getting divorced...?

Hoping this isn't the case, obviously, and that it's just a classic case of misunderstanding. But I'd appreciate clarification.

 

[grant_s]

Marriages break up. We're adults. There's nobody saying that you need to stay with the one you marry forever because, legitimately, marriage is nothing more than an agreement.

If it's pretty much done between a couple, then they should split. Marital problems are going to affect children.

You're wasting the time your spouse could be having with someone else, that may care enough to honor their promises.

That is just plain cruelty. It's also selfishness of the worst kind.

There are those who feel their life is such crap they have to escape and have some little secret to make them feel like they have power over some little portion of their lives. Or a passive aggressive get back at who they feel has done them wrong

I added this to show an example of what has been said, and divorce was thrown in as an answer to the problem.

I'm therefore assuming she does not/would never 'mess around' either online or in the RW, if she did, religious beliefs aside, she would be liable to be judged as everyone else is. You have to agree with that surely?

Only I'm not sure why you brought up this as it kinda sounds like you're trying to make an example for why people shouldn't judge those that lie and cheat rather than getting divorced...?

Hoping this isn't the case, obviously, and that it's just a classic case of misunderstanding. But I'd appreciate clarification.

No, she wouldn't mess around, but she does need some escape, she spends hours in the gym, joined booked clubs all just to be around people that will be 'nice' to her.

So while I am not advocating 'lying and cheating', there may be a reason for it, and whilst we do not know the people's reason, sadly some people may drink themselves into a stupor to numb the pain, and some turn to drugs, but all in all, its an escape, and that is why I brought this up

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Oh FFS. I have never wanted to slap people as much as I do right now. THe point of this thread was whether an on line relationship is valid or not. Not whether or not the people who indulge in them are lying, cheating cunts. How the hell did it devolve this way?

Who gave anyone the right to sit in judgment on another by answering the original post in this thread? Ausus said she didn`t want contention here, she wanted conversation. Why is that an impossibility in this case?

 

[Rick345]

My current relationship is two years in. I know it will eventually calm down like all relationships do. Such, is the nature of love. When the crazy irrational love is gone I'll still be left with someone I know and trust. Sure, that might all go out the window one day, but we're the kind of people that would be civil about it. It's not like I'm in any sort of rush to be married either. We're both really understanding and flexible people that get along and work through problems really well. We're not a perfect couple, but we accept each other's flaws.

However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the future of a marriage rests solely on the kind of person you choose to spend your life with.

People don't just magically morph into complete douchebags after a couple of years. The only thing that really tends to change is perspective, allowing you to really see the person you married without frills.

If you commit to someone, you'd better be certain that they are worth it.

Once someone makes a commitment they should do their damndest to carry it out. You have been in a relationship a very short time (two years) and your absolutely right understanding and flexibility are the keys to sustaining any relationship. But, the notion that within two years you have any idea what this person will be like in say twenty years is ridiculous. People are not stagnate and more importantly neither is the world. Life is a bumpy road even in the best times and the world always has a way of throwing obstacles in one's path and how we deal with these obstacles is a measure of who we are and helps us grow.

Commitment means we will follow the choice(s) we made even if it/they turn out to be a bad one.

Loss of a job, loss of a parent, loss of a child, debilitating illness are just some of the things most of us will face and all of these things have a profound effect on the people they involve. All these things can put a terrible stain on a marriage and I think a much more pronounced effect on a marriage than dishonestly. Without question honesty is preferable to discreet but, dishonesty in and of itself is not a deal breaker its an opportunity for a discussion and opportunity to examine a relationship and reexamine one's actions after all if someone is cheating on you odds are 50/50 your part of the problem and since none of us can change the way someone else thinks, feels or acts we are left with the only alterative and that is to change our behavior.

The two flaws in your argument as I understand it are these: You must be sure of the other person before you commit which is and of itself an impossibility. People change and we change over time odds are the person you marry today will not be that same person 30 years from now and since we have no control over anyone but, ourselves we have to be the change we want to see in the world.

Secondly we can find happiness from outside ourselves, that also is an impossibility if we disregarded certain medical conditions happiness by and large is really a matter of personal choice and the key to happiness is ourselves. Happiness is really a matter of personal choice we can choose to accept our circumstances and be happy or wish things were different and be miserable. That is not to say we can't work toward solutions but, often we have to learn to accept the things we cannot change before we find happiness. Whenever, you look to someone else for your own happiness you're looking in the wrong place.

While I'm not religious I do believe we should go out of our way not to do harm to others and so I don't think divorce is ever a good option and seldom an option at all.

 

[sallythescorpian]

Oh good god! This has gotten way out of hand!

Whatever happened to the milk of human kindness, to tolerance, live and let live? The sanctimonious views from the holier than thou brigade are hard to take.

The point of this thread was to examine and ascertain views on the validity of on line relationships. How did that evolve into this?

It must be wonderful to be so goddamned perfect that you feel you can sit in judgement of others! Whether people are married or in in a relationship, whether their partner knows they are on here or not, is a matter solely between that person and their SO. No one outside that relationship knows the dynamics at play in their relationship, various factors why they stay together, whether they are happy or not, what their reasons are for being on here.

I know a good number of guys on here who are married, and their wives have no idea they are on here, or playing on yahoo or whatever, and I know some who are unhappily married but who remain together for reasons that are pretty selfless. That is not for me (or anyone else for that matter) to judge. That is a matter for that person to weigh on their own conscience.

Personally, while I think it is possible to have on line friendships ( and I have a few that I consider good friends) to me, it does not equate as the same a RL friendships. That doesn't necessarily mean I think less of them, just not the same. I still look forward to a PM from one of them, or to hear their news etc. I guess a romantic on-line relationship is similar to a progression of that, and I suppose it is hypocritical of me to say that I don't believe in them. But that is JUST MY OPINION. It relates to me, and my feelings. In real life, I am quite reserved, and slow to let people in. My close friends I have know for years. Because of that, I know I could not fall in love with the one dimensional aspect of someone's personality that you see on line. For me, my emotions run deep, and I just could not have a significant enough connection with someone to fall for them. And that, I guess is why I am sceptical of them. Of course, I am in a happy RL relationship, and perhaps if I wasn't, my desire to feel loved might extend to believing that an online relationship could fill that void. But as I am not in that situation, I simply hypothesising, and cannot categorically say one way other.

That's not to say that people don't form connections on here, and if it brings them happiness, good luck to them. I really don't see why it should concern anyone else but those involved.

I think partly the reason why there is so much scepticism about on line romances is that in the 15 months I have been on here, I have seen so many who meet someone in the lounges, and a couple of days later is "I love him / her so much, they're the only one for me" etc etc posted all over the lounge. A week later its "I hate him / her" and the next days its "I love someone else" The whole thing is very shallow, and there seems to be desperation to form a connection with someone - to be so-and-so's special such-and-such. Undoubtedly such behaviour has skewed my opinion on such. Of course, there are plenty of others who have something genuine which means a lot to them, and hey, if it brings them happiness what's the harm in that?

For a discussion thread on a sex site, some of you are demonstrating such dogmatic views, lacking in tolerance to such a degree, it's worthy of Taliban membership!!!

I was going to say "that, for what its worth is my ten cents on the issue", but looking at how much I posted, I guess it should be "that's my Euro on the issue!!"

 

[Alana_]

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, as I'm hitting a bunch of bases and trying to tie in some points. I'd promised myself Friday night I wasn't visiting this thread again, but one person I respect posted here this morning and I respect her too much not to at least read her view. So I've back read and I'll try say my own part and not sound critical while being honest.

I don't see what being a Catholic has to do with this subject firstly. I don't see what having faith of any kind has to do with marriage vows. As a Catholic, I married my husband in a Church wedding, because doing other wise never crossed our minds. But it had nothing to do with the dept of our vows or commitment. Our faith has nothing to do with remaining with him.
It has nothing to do with us staying together after we lost two babies, and I had a run in with a cancer scare. What keeps us going after over 2 decades together is is respect first, love after. If you don't respect your partner, and you hit a bad patch, no amount of love will get you back on track. Loyalty is a combination of both. You can not have the respect, trust or love from anyone when you can't truly 'see' them.


I think, and it's a hard one to call as it's not happened., but I think I could forgive my husband a RL affair, if God forbid it was to happen. I think. BUT I couldn't forgive him an online affair. Ever.! For me that crosses a border between an emotional real need and sleaze. I won't speak for him, but I believe he would feel the same, because we've been together too long to throw what we have away on an affair. In a RL situation, I'd have a physical person to 'fight' ( I'm not talking fistycuffs). I'd have a sense of my husband not having something with me that he needed, and I would either chose to work on our relationship, or not.

On the net however, I'd rip the computer out, and toss him and it out the door without looking back. I could not respect any man that said he loved me, then got sexed up by some female online who he never touched, and who in the context of the internet took himself away from me for a life on a screen that isn't ''real''.

It's been days now. Can we not let this go? Stuff's getting said over and over, and at times it's gotten very ugly. I think it's safely established that there is no yes or no answer to the question. It's what each of us think personally, and what each of us needs in our lives.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Alana, have i told you lately that you are awesome? No? Well consider it said.

Sally, thanks for your euro. I knew I semi stalked your posts for a reason.

The point of this thread was conversation. I have commented twice but I guess my pov wasn`t mean enough, not filled with enough vitrol, to warrant any response. Fine. I hate to see those I like and respect being painted as bad guys for thier views. I dislike the entire convo after page 4.

I read this thread because it was a convo that started out well and showed differing views. It has become a train wreck. I hope we can get back to the original premise or let it fade away.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I have no doubt that this post will be torn apart, and that I will again be accused of not reading- before I was- now I'm not- except for Alana's above- she said it well.

Different strokes for different folks.

To a degree, some of the things that I've said are mostly to throw a wrench into the whole- "Lying is always bad, and makes you a bad person!!" thinking that I'm seeing over and over. Whenever I see someone get into a narrow view of thinking, or a fundamentalist view on things, I have to throw wrenches in there. I do this because, narrow views on things annoy me, and they don't always give credence to the mess of a human life- and well, what works for me- doesn't always work for others.

I have, will have- online relationships. They will range from love to friendship. I will continue to do this because in my mind- connections with people are amazing, wonderful, can prepare me for life, can support me, can titillate me, it's great to have friends, be they online or off.

So yes. I will continue to validate my relationships here.

HOWEVER, I do recognize that they are not equivalent to the ones I have in RL. Not matter how much I want them to be. They just aren't. And it was Light Ice who taught me that.

It is a total dichotomy, yes. I appreciate those in my life.

And yes, LI my darling wonderful man, I did meet the man of my dreams, my partner in crime, my best friend. I love Zom with every ounce of my being and he feels the same for me. I am so unbelievably fortunate to have met the love of my life at such a young age, I still have no idea how I got so lucky. The thing is, you think I'm poly because there is something missing from my relationship. There isn't. But in being honest with him and creating our life together, building a poly relationship was worked in. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with surrounding yourself with people who love you. That's why I am poly. You've seen how happy I've been these last few weeks, and it's because I have gone from practicing with online relationships, to actually having RL ones.

How fortunate am I to have a partner who loves me, a Daddy Dominant who adores me, a cuddly gf, and my girls- including Angel- that adore and love me?

Not to mention here, and all the myriad of amazing folks that have come my way. I am extraordinarily fortunate, and so thankful to see a group of people online so very passionate about their beliefs and feelings.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to unsubscribe to this thread. I, for one, am done here. If there are any of you who feel slighted or hurt by what I've done here, please feel free to find me, hunt me down.

Kisses,
Aus.

 

[Hikari]

Once someone makes a commitment they should do their damndest to carry it out. You have been in a relationship a very short time (two years) and your absolutely right understanding and flexibility are the keys to sustaining any relationship. But, the notion that within two years you have any idea what this person will be like in say twenty years is ridiculous. People are not stagnate and more importantly neither is the world. Life is a bumpy road even in the best times and the world always has a way of throwing obstacles in one's path and how we deal with these obstacles is a measure of who we are and helps us grow.

Commitment means we will follow the choice(s) we made even if it/they turn out to be a bad one.

Loss of a job, loss of a parent, loss of a child, debilitating illness are just some of the things most of us will face and all of these things have a profound effect on the people they involve. All these things can put a terrible stain on a marriage and I think a much more pronounced effect on a marriage than dishonestly. Without question honesty is preferable to discreet but, dishonesty in and of itself is not a deal breaker its an opportunity for a discussion and opportunity to examine a relationship and reexamine one's actions after all if someone is cheating on you odds are 50/50 your part of the problem and since none of us can change the way someone else thinks, feels or acts we are left with the only alterative and that is to change our behavior.

The two flaws in your argument as I understand it are these: You must be sure of the other person before you commit which is and of itself an impossibility. People change and we change over time odds are the person you marry today will not be that same person 30 years from now and since we have no control over anyone but, ourselves we have to be the change we want to see in the world.

Secondly we can find happiness from outside ourselves, that also is an impossibility if we disregarded certain medical conditions happiness by and large is really a matter of personal choice and the key to happiness is ourselves. Happiness is really a matter of personal choice we can choose to accept our circumstances and be happy or wish things were different and be miserable. That is not to say we can't work toward solutions but, often we have to learn to accept the things we cannot change before we find happiness. Whenever, you look to someone else for your own happiness you're looking in the wrong place.

While I'm not religious I do believe we should go out of our way not to do harm to others and so I don't think divorce is ever a good option and seldom an option at all.

You obviously did not pay attention to what I wrote.

I've been in more than one relationship and I'm not saying I know all there is to know about him. That why we're not engaged or married. Like I said no rush. We're the patient type and can wait as long as is needed.

To say that a person will be vastly different in 20 years personality wise is ridiculous. Like I said before, people don't really change in the way you describe, they just stop trying so hard to lie. People often marry without allowing themselves to see the person's flaws.

I know my man's flaws. They exist, but they aren't something I can't deal with.

Commitment is not always about staying the course no matter what. If a person treats you poorly and begins beating you, I hardly think that's a commitment a person should stick with. After awhile that kind of reasoning screams lack of self-respect. If you have a shitty partner, get a new one. Life is too short to try and prop up a failure.

There are levels of commitment. I would say dating greatly differs from marriage in the beginning. Marriage is a heavier commitment. I am saying you can realistically look at a person after several years and know whether you should marry them.

You can look at them and know whether this person will break under pressure and whether or not you can handle what life throws at you. People say they don't know what they can handle, but I think they do when they're honest with themselves. People choose not to look at it realistically out of fear.

There is a reason why the divorce rate in the US is so high. It's because people don't think long enough on their chosen partner before taking the plunge. If I find that my boyfriend is not someone I believe I can make things work with three years from now, I will be sad, but I will be grateful to have had the time that I was given.

I know of a friend my age with three kids who is obtaining a divorce from her husband. They were together five years and he started seeing another person on the side and stopped sending her and the kids money. It's not change that happened to end the relationship, but lack of change. She assumed he would grow out of childish behavior on his own, but he never did. So she decided she wasn't going to live with that. Which is the correct decision.

Staying the course in marriages like that or to even suggest it to someone, it's sadistic.

So people should be miserable trying to make things work? How could anyone realistically be happy when their marriage is in shambles and never had legs to stand on?

Humans are not wired for monogamy. Therefore you'd best be with someone that doesn't mind compromising on some level.

The kind of partner I'm suggesting here is not an impossibility or unrealistic. It just means imagining the worst case scenario and taking gathered information to determine whether you'd make it through that together.

Circumstances may change but it doesn't change that person, it just drives a person's true nature to the surface. Which is why the waters should be tested and you should live together first.

This is just plain common sense.

There are some exceptions. Life changing catalysts can occur, but they are rare. The average relationship isn't going to involve major rehabilitation of a loved one. Things like war or becoming physically disabled can change everything. Though it's mainly because the parameters of your relationship changed. You entered into a relationship not expecting to go from lover to caretaker in a matter of minutes. You married them not expecting cognitive dissonance to reek havoc upon your partner's values and perspective.

These are freak occurrences. If your partner becomes an entirely different person overnight they might need treatment for a mental disorder.

 

[Light Ice]

Sally, and Luna, both asked the question "Why are we talking about lying and cheating, anyway?"

The reason, ladies (both of whom I respect) is that in a post several pages back Firmhanded_Daddy confessed himself as an adulterer to his real-life wife by keeping an online girlfriend whom he claimed to love. He did this in order to claim that his online love was valid in some way.

That, alone, wasn't enough to turn the conversation but the rabid defense by a few people here of the right, and reasons, he had to cheat definitely skewed the page off topic.

I think the conversation here has remained, while heated, surprisingly well-spoken. The topic has followed a natural arc (for the most part) and I'm very surprised at how many arguments have been made and how many points stated. It's a lot to read and the content, in general, is very good.

But this thread was not made for earnest discussion. I know Ausus claims that in her first post, but later in this thread she admitted her point was to kick the hornet's nest and stir up a fight. People should listen when she said that. She's been extremely successful in her goal, which I knew she would when she told me she was posting up this thread.

A, this part's for you. I doubt very much you won't read this but I've no desire to track you down after your dramatic departure. I've been openly critical of many of the things you've said and I think it'd be fairly stupid for me not to put some open support on here as well.

The thing is, you think I'm poly because there is something missing from my relationship. There isn't. But in being honest with him and creating our life together, building a poly relationship was worked in.

No, I do not think you are missing something from your life and that you are attempting to fill that through polyamory. I've never said that here and I would not say that here. I am not critical of the polyamorous lifestyle. I do not believe monogamy is the only answer for people in their pursuit of romantic happiness.

I am extremely critical of your half-assed attempts to stir up shit with arguments that run in direct conflict with your own system of values as you've shared them with me. I'm extremely critical of your decision to attempt and defend dishonest behavior through half-assed justifications and an extremely empty post about the many circumstances that provoke people to lie to their partners.

However, at the end of the day, I know you are yourself a person that strives to be honest to themselves and with the people close to them. I know that your romances, and fucks, are a part of a system of trust and understanding you've built with your partner (and partners), and that you live your life based on a code of values.

--------------

I'm -not- leaving this thread but I don't have much else to say. The two major discussions that have occurred here:

1. Are online relationships valid and, if so, in what way?

2. Is cheating on your spouse with an online partner wrong and why?

Well, they have played out with my opinions pretty clearly defined and all the arguments I see worth replying to, replied to. I'll certainly keep reading to see if something else worth replying pops up.

 

[zydrate]

--------------

I'm -not- leaving this thread but I don't have much else to say. The two major discussions that have occurred here:

1. Are online relationships valid and, if so, in what way?

2. Is cheating on your spouse with an online partner wrong and why?

Well, they have played out with my opinions pretty clearly defined and all the arguments I see worth replying to, replied to. I'll certainly keep reading to see if something else worth replying pops up.

1-To me personally, No, they are not valid.
2-Yes because it hurts and it's happened to me personally. My then BF claimed to have loved me. But I found his shit online and his 'online' GF. It pissed me off because it hurt me. I kicked his ass out that day. Never spoke to him again. Still don't.

I know, pretty weird coming from someone who always whines about no one 'claiming' her, blah blah, well, for me, coming online is a character thing. Zydrate is a character for me to play. Lit is my stage.

BUT, don't get me wrong, there are a few certain individuals that have been special enough to have gotten my personal email and/or facebook, even phone number. But all in all, they are my friends. Some I consider very good friends who know the real Zydrate.

Back to my goofy self.

EDIT: This is the opinion of Zydrate only and not of any one else. Tax, title and license extra.

 

[grant_s]

To a degree, some of the things that I've said are mostly to throw a wrench into the whole- "Lying is always bad, and makes you a bad person!!" thinking that I'm seeing over and over. Whenever I see someone get into a narrow view of thinking, or a fundamentalist view on things, I have to throw wrenches in there. I do this because, narrow views on things annoy me, and they don't always give credence to the mess of a human life- and well, what works for me- doesn't always work for others.

Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to unsubscribe to this thread. I, for one, am done here. If there are any of you who feel slighted or hurt by what I've done here, please feel free to find me, hunt me down.

Kisses,
Aus.

Is it just me that is disgusted by this, to be used as a toy and manipulated for her amusement. To be honest, I have absolutely no respect for such behavior or people that behave like that.

The most cowardly of acts to 'run and hide', why not stay and see what people have to say to her, I will not look for her, to be part of another game she wants to play.

 

[Trixabell]

I told my self to not respond to this anymore but my masochistic tendancies must need to be fed today so here I go.

Sally – thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking but writing in down in a way that I could not.
Grant - I agree completely

To say that a person will be vastly different in 20 years personality wise is ridiculous. Like I said before, people don't really change in the way you describe, they just stop trying so hard to lie. People often marry without allowing themselves to see the person's flaws.

Drastic change is not the issue. The reality is that people do grow and change over the years in ways that are not predictable. I am not the person I was 20 years ago (thank goodness) and I will continue to grow and change in the next 20 years.

Commitment is not always about staying the course no matter what. If a person treats you poorly and begins beating you, I hardly think that's a commitment a person should stick with. After awhile that kind of reasoning screams lack of self-respect. If you have a shitty partner, get a new one. Life is too short to try and prop up a failure.

This is true but again this is an extreme example. The reality is much more difficult. People grow apart and change but a life has been made together. Homes built and children created. A life is much harder to walk away from than just a shitty partner.

I am saying you can realistically look at a person after several years and know whether you should marry them.

On that day yes but add 20 years and there is no way to predict.

There is a reason why the divorce rate in the US is so high. It's because people don't think long enough on their chosen partner before taking the plunge. If I find that my boyfriend is not someone I believe I can make things work with three years from now, I will be sad, but I will be grateful to have had the time that I was given.


Staying the course in marriages like that or to even suggest it to someone, it's sadistic.

Circumstances may change but it doesn't change that person, it just drives a person's true nature to the surface. Which is why the waters should be tested and you should live together first.

This is just plain common sense.

Common sense is sometimes wrong. The truth is that the divorce rate is higher among people that have lived together before getting married.

There are some exceptions. Life changing catalysts can occur, but they are rare. The average relationship isn't going to involve major rehabilitation of a loved one. Things like war or becoming physically disabled can change everything. Though it's mainly because the parameters of your relationship changed. You entered into a relationship not expecting to go from lover to caretaker in a matter of minutes. You married them not expecting cognitive dissonance to reek havoc upon your partner's values and perspective.

These are freak occurrences. If your partner becomes an entirely different person overnight they might need treatment for a mental disorder.

People don’t change overnight but after many years we do change. I never would have guessed in a million years that I would be the person I am today 20 years ago. Please do not think that you can date someone for 2 years and know what you two will be like down the road. If we could predict the future there would be no divorce.

 

[Hikari]

Okay Trixibell this is what I have to say on your response.

Drastic change is not the issue. The reality is that people do grow and change over the years in ways that are not predictable. I am not the person I was 20 years ago (thank goodness) and I will continue to grow and change in the next 20 years.

We change more in our youth. Teens and early twenties. After a certain point not much changes. What does change is our perspective and our values according to that new perspective. It comes with age.

The things that aren't predictable aren't usually that important. What kind of unpredictable change are we talking here? A kind person doesn't just become a selfish asshole. What we have is a person trying not as hard to be nice anymore. They may have been an asshole all along but they made an effort to be nice for appearances.

Think about the BTK killer. He was viewed as a religious family man. They believed him a good god fearing individual. Yet he killed ten people. He didn't just get up one day and decide to murder. It was something that had been building within this man for years. He'd tortured animals as a child and developed a fetish for women's underwear early on. He'd later steal and wear the underwear of his victims.

Somethings may change but their nature does not. Certainly behaviors might change, but it does not change the essence of who they are.

This is true but again this is an extreme example. The reality is much more difficult. People grow apart and change but a life has been made together. Homes built and children created. A life is much harder to walk away from than just a shitty partner.

Your partner doesn't necessarily dictate your life and who you are. It's never easy, but doing the right thing never is. How many people have you seen staying in sexless unhappy relationships for the sake of children? Those people are miserable. It also doesn't make for a better life for the children either. The reality is that if you are unhappy, you are responsible for making things better.

On that day yes but add 20 years and there is no way to predict.

Again what are we predicting? A career change? Developing an inabilty to tolerate bullshit? Those things are incredibily predictable.

Common sense is sometimes wrong. The truth is that the divorce rate is higher among people that have lived together before getting married.

The divorce rate is also lowest amongst Atheist couples, but you don't see people in any hurry to throw down their bibles do you?

The truth behind that study is that it never said cohabitation was the cause of divorce, but more that the kind of people that live together first tend to have divorce as a part of their value system. Meaning that some people might stay together despite unhappiness due to religious beliefs. Where as the more independent people who would move in together, are more likely to respect themselves and end a failing relationship.


People don’t change overnight but after many years we do change. I never would have guessed in a million years that I would be the person I am today 20 years ago. Please do not think that you can date someone for 2 years and know what you two will be like down the road. If we could predict the future there would be no divorce.


If you are in your twenties, the amount of change you experienced is the normal amount. Things tend to slow down as you begin to get older. If you are not vastly different at 28 than you were at age 4, there are some serious problems in your mental development.

 

[Trixabell]

Hikari - i am not trying to pick a fight I just felt that it was important to point out that people do change. If this is not your experience then great and I wish you the best of luck. Ill take a minute to respond to a few things you said because they are important to me.

We change more in our youth. Teens and early twenties. After a certain point not much changes. What does change is our perspective and our values according to that new perspective. It comes with age.

Not much changes after the age of 20? I’ll take a guess and assume you are about 20 then. We all change and my point was that it doesn't have to be a drastic change that causes discord in relationships, more often than not its the everyday stuff that after 20 years changes you and your relationship. You speak in such absolutes - life is not black and white, I believe you really have to look at every situation individually.

Think about the BTK killer. He was viewed as a religious family man. They believed him a good god fearing individual. Yet he killed ten people. He didn't just get up one day and decide to murder. It was something that had been building within this man for years. He'd tortured animals as a child and developed a fetish for women's underwear early on. He'd later steal and wear the underwear of his victims.

You use such extreme examples that have no bearing on the majority of relationships. Once again, I was simply trying to point out that people and marriages all change and evolve over time. Please do not be so quick to judge people that are living in a reality that you have yet to experience.

The divorce rate is also lowest amongst Atheist couples, but you don't see people in any hurry to throw down their bibles do you?

Not at all, I was simply pointing out that living together before marriage does not contribute to a sustainable relationship which is the point I felt you were trying to make.

 

[sallythescorpian]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Trix has said.

People continue to change throughout the lives. It doesn't slow down or stop. Many things alter who we are, how we behave. Things like financial pressures, sharing housework, job losses, children, career pressures, disappointments, achievements, family involvement, issues with kids - bullying, learning difficulties, etc etc all have an impact.

A point in time when things can fall apart, is when a woman who has given up her career to be a stay at home mom, sees her children reared, and realises that she and her husband no longer have much in common.

It may also be the case that someone having a heart attach, or a cancer scare might suddenly realise that the life they have, is not the life they envisaged for themselves, or indeed their partner, when the relief dies down, might be shocked that they were not as upset at the thought of being alone, as they might have imagined.

I know people who have gone through profound changes in their 30s and 40s. Its not that they were being ill used in any way, more a growing realisation that their life was ticking away, and they weren't getting what they wanted out of it. A colleague of mine, at 37 went home from work one Thursday to find a note from his wife to the effect that the kids were at his mother's, and the car at the airport - she'd flown to Boston to be with her one true love!! (leaving her kids behind!)

Tragedies both personal and those on the periphery often affect people profoundly - health scares, or even death of a sibling / friend / colleague or even a parent make us aware of our own longevity, the passage of time.

Even in old age, people may change profoundly - I'm not referring to Alzheimers, I'm thinking more of people becoming progressively more intractable, set in their ways. Sometimes people can hit massive difficulties when one or other retires, and they find themselves suddenly thrown together all the time, discovering that their partner grates on their nerves intensly.

We change continuously, from the cradle to the grave. The lucky couple's personalities change in such a way as they still dovetail, and they still enjoy being together.

 

[Noon_Shadow]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Trix has said.

Sounds like you're trying to get into her pants

smiles.

 

[Trixabell]

Sounds like you're trying to get into her pants

smiles.

Noon!!

This is the sort of thread derailment I can support!

 

[SoulWeaver]

Sounds like you're trying to get into her pants

smiles.

Stop that. Thread derailments with attempts at jocularity will attract a stoning.