THIS is PATHETIC

[WickedEve]

Ha! I was wondering if Senna had ever left praise for any poet at Literotica, but then again, I think he did for Eve. Once.


kidding kidding

I'll go look.

 

[Guest]

I'll go look.

It might've been a poem you deleted. If it was, we will never know. haha. I think Senna said so in the forum about something you wrote.

 

[wildsweetone]

poetry is something else
01/29/06 by Senna Jawa in sqrt(-1)
A poor poem. Too much around "me". "Let me shine" is particularly pathetic.

Poor language, e.g. "I give to her my mane". Word "this" occurs twice, and it is awful on both occasions. Several adjectives weaken the effect by plying and stuffing the reader with unnecessary words--Ezra Pound would say that these adjectives "dull the image". Etc, etc.

If the above comment contains any ads, links, or breaks Literotica rules, please report it.

This post is not meant to offend, it is merely to point out the particular words that could be reworded. I have done this recently elsewhere on the 'net when a fight occurred because a couple of inflammatory words were used that the recipient was unable to sidestep because of personal baggage. Sometimes people simply haven't a clue that some words can cause personal hurt. And sometimes people haven't the skill to use more appropriate internet language that doesn't need tone to portray it correctly.

So, Senna, if you are interested in what words have caused a problem, here they are:

'pathetic'
'awful'
'plying and stuffing the reader'

the first two words carry negative connotations that are used in common day vocal language and are generally derogative to people (they are not often seen when referring to written language) - they carry personal baggage that can close the recipient's mind thus making any worthwhile comments you have, useless.

If you're going to take the time to impart your knowledge then you may as well do it so that it is received in a more favourable light. a man with your knowledge and skill does have the ability to choose the appropriate words.

here's my slight fiddling with your comments that would make it a simple matter for the poet to be openminded enough to receive them in the light they are intended - ie he/she might actually work more on the poem:

A poor poem. Too much around "me". "Let me shine" is particularly useless/weak because... (here you could state why it is not good, or advise you are available by PM/email to discuss this point further.)

Poor language, e.g. "I give to her my mane". Word "this" occurs twice, and it is awful(perhaps misused? or, and it could be a stronger word?) on both occasions. Several adjectives weaken the effect by plying and stuffing(perhaps these don't need changing when the other words have been removed, however you could simply say 'filling' or 'giving') the reader with unnecessary words--Ezra Pound would say that these adjectives "dull the image". Etc, etc. (if you have more skill, more comments, and don't mind imparting your knowledge, then state at the end what i said above, that you are available for further discussion. 'Etc.' sometimes comes across as one having knowledge but not feeling particularly bothered about passing it on. it's not helpful.)

It doesn't take much effort for wordsmiths to choose the right words that keep the flow of language moving, in my opinion.

 

[lindiana]

PishPosh

Poets should not rate poets.

What one likes and dislikes is subjective.

I happened to like the poem. Yes it could use some polish but then I have read a shitload of poems on this site that need polish.

There are probably about two dozen poets, tops, on this site that put out terrific poem after terrific poem. And I eagerly read them as they come out. Most of those poets have been, fairly enough, nominated for an Annual Reward.

I write some good stuff, some mediocre stuff and some piss poor stuff and I know it. But the point is I keep writing. If you guys say "Lindiana, you so suck!", I am going to shrug my shoulders and keep writing. I know the majority of writers on literotica take criticism very personal. I don't. Everyone in this world is entitled to their opinion. If we all posted in here that James Frey (Author of "A Million Little Pieces") is a liar and a fake, no one in literotica would get upset. But if we criticize one of our own, the mommy in some of us comes out.

You can't always protect your kids, moms. Eventually they have to leave the nest.

 

[DeepAsleep]

You know, I like my new avatar a whole helluva lot,

AND I DIDN'T READ THE POEM IN QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK THIS WHOLE THREAD IS A MARKETING PLOY. WHERE ARE ALL MY TINFOIL HAT AT?

Pppppppppllllllllllllllllbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbtttttttttttttt! (with spittle!)

~R
Ok, so I read it, but I'm not gonna tell you what I think. Neener.

 

[flyguy69]

You know, I like my new avatar a whole helluva lot,

AND I DIDN'T READ THE POEM IN QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK THIS WHOLE THREAD IS A MARKETING PLOY. WHERE ARE ALL MY TINFOIL HAT AT?

Pppppppppllllllllllllllllbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbtttttttttttttt! (with spittle!)

~R
Ok, so I read it, but I'm not gonna tell you what I think. Neener.

And I'd like to consign your av to the fires of hell, at 350 degrees for 50 minutes.

 

[DeepAsleep]

You Can't Put Jebus In The Ubben!

 

[Angeline]

And I'd like to consign your av to the fires of hell, at 350 degrees for 50 minutes.

I'm betting you'll like my poem in the other thread.

 

[flyguy69]

You Can't Put Jebus In The Ubben!

Where do you think the host crackers come from?

 

[My Erotic Trail]

posted on the commenting vs reading then comment ; yesterday

Seena posted this in his opening post of a thread he made...

excerpt,

Originally Posted by Senna Jawa
The mechanical critical attitude blinds the critic to poetry.


then turns around and disects a poem (or vise versa) I have a mental list of those who do not know how to leave comments and I delete them rather than read them. It is obviously a personality thing, wicked leaves a critic and I listen, ange, liar, lebroz, wild, blue and a few more who tell me what is wrong with the poem. The Rain Man leaves long indepth critics but rarely have I seen him become rude when he does so, I feel a lot of what he says is missed by the new poet, one PM me and asks "What does he mean?" SO a handfull of commentors here can not contain their need to use HARSH words. It is their personality spilled into their words. There are several here that can not leave a comment with out showing their unhappiness with the world. Then others shine with polite, kind, courteous and encouraging words.

I have to say this again; this is not a school but a public site for sharing and reading works, If some one wants feedback they simply and readily make a thread or submit to the discussion circle. I find it hard to swallow that some must look down their noses at others by grading their literary creations when we all know who writes good poetry and who is new and struggling to learn from a site with a grand mix of opinions. They feel a need to express their knowledge more than to critic a poem.

If a man on the street corner yells at you to give him a dollar you'll likely ignore him and not give your hard earned money to an obviouis baligerant attitude. But if they ask nicely you may just hand the vagrant a coin or two. It is the way the world works, some just cant help but verbalize harshly, that does not mean we should have to listen to them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
anna writes~
But really people, come on, if you do not want to be a "serious" poet then shrug off the comments and say "Oh well, whatever, I don't want to be a serious poet anyway this person made a mistake"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know any one who does not want to learn and become better, so your saying we should accept these rude teachers, learn from their words of 'pathetic'...'aweful' and 'sorry' ... I think it is more important to bring such critics into the light so each can decide rather or not to listen to the arragant because they know something about poetry. If your stead fast in need of learning their are courses for about 40$ you can take to learn from those type folk.

I personally have found there are several here to teach what they know in a polite way and rudeness is not a teaching tool. The most we can do when ugly comments are made by a critic is feedback the poet and offer a freindly and kind advice that the critic only speaks for themselves and their are some good poets and TEACHERS in the forum, please continue to share poetry and find those at lit with a nicer way of wording things. We have to accept the fact that not every one is a nice and 'inspiring' person.

 

[cloudy]

A few comments, just for y'all to consider:

1) Do any of you realize how many fledgling poets won't dare post a poem at lit because of comments like that that started this thread? Do any of you even care?

2) I don't post in this forum simply because I don't like the elitist attitudes that flow so easily from so many. "serious poet"...."they can't take critique"

What if I don't have a care in the world whether I'm a "serious poet" or not? Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?

Glass houses, folks, glass houses.

I don't post here because of those things, and I guarantee you I'm not the only one.

When my poem won it's category for November, it was IMMEDIATELY attacked, and the rating plummeted. Why? It was fine before it was mentioned, but I suppose that since I've not been rated a "serious poet" nothing I put out is worth anything.

C'mon, people. We're ALL putting our poetry out there. Critique is fine, and I have a fairly thick skin, but there's a HUGE difference between critique, and being an asshole.

Senna Jawa may know everything there is to know about poetry, but you know what? Who cares. He can't impart that knowledge in a way that can be used, so all he says is "pathetic."

Rant over. Start bombing everything I've written. I don't care.

 

[annaswirls]

People who are not interested in critical comments do not need to accept or learn from anything-- not what I said MET.

This is the absolutely easiest most friendly place on the net that I have been to new poets and to poets at all. BY FAR.

I posted poems for several months at a very active board, left NICE comments, and never ever had a single comment on a poem. THAT is a reason to leave, I got nothing from that place.


I think the comments I leave here are helpful and not mean and evil, which is one reason I think it is funny to be thrown into the group of snotty etc. critics.

carry on...

 

[annaswirls]

Cloudy "Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?"

The poet. When a poet does not want anything but praise they are saying "I am not serious."

 

[My Erotic Trail]

A few comments, just for y'all to consider:

1) Do any of you realize how many fledgling poets won't dare post a poem at lit because of comments like that that started this thread? Do any of you even care?

2) I don't post in this forum simply because I don't like the elitist attitudes that flow so easily from so many. "serious poet"...."they can't take critique"

What if I don't have a care in the world whether I'm a "serious poet" or not? Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?

Glass houses, folks, glass houses.

I don't post here because of those things, and I guarantee you I'm not the only one.

When my poem won it's category for November, it was IMMEDIATELY attacked, and the rating plummeted. Why? It was fine before it was mentioned, but I suppose that since I've not been rated a "serious poet" nothing I put out is worth anything.

C'mon, people. We're ALL putting our poetry out there. Critique is fine, and I have a fairly thick skin, but there's a HUGE difference between critique, and being an asshole.

Senna Jawa may know everything there is to know about poetry, but you know what? Who cares. He can't impart that knowledge in a way that can be used, so all he says is "pathetic."

Rant over. Start bombing everything I've written. I don't care.

amen sister, I for one miss your smiling face over here. I had a list at one time that showed those who had left for this same reason and rather than make another the point was that their is a gaunlet of critics here and you learn to over look them or figure out who is helpful and who is not (that takes time) some do not invest the time for the scars and wounds they recieved from critics needing to cast their intelligence with a sword of words rather than offer a polite meal of information that satisfys and fills the newer poet.

The poetry attacks has been under discussion many times, I still feel the dr jeckle and mr hyde syndrome is sad, they are right here in front of us yet, slashing our literary creations with low votes that do not refelct the poem/stories worth but rather to pull them down in the top lists. My poems are fine till they reach this level then they are bombarded, I don't understand it but after the wind blows from the west most of the time you tend to know when and where it will blow again.

posted by anna~
Cloudy "Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?"

The poet. When a poet does not want anything but praise they are saying "I am not serious."

I have never heard from anyone that they only want praise. I think most here will say they love to hear what people think of their poetry with out rudeness.

 

[annaswirls]

I have never heard from anyone that they only want praise. I think most here will say they love to hear what people think of their poetry with out rudeness.
__________________
.......................................................Art~

well I will agree to that, of course, rudeness is not a good quality to have to live with but we all live with it everywhere, and to expect that some people without social graces won't show up here...well that is setting the standards pretty high.

This is not to support rudeness, but to support people who are hurt to just try to get something good out of it... not easy, but to try to get around the rudeness and find something worthwhile (of course it might not be there at all, for instance YOU CALL THIS POETRY THIS SUCKS did not really help me too much.) but I can laugh now....

 

[Samandiriel]

If I may, the problem arises when the unconstructive criticism results in us losing truly beautiful words from a fledgling poet (or regular) and not being able to see them grow.
It is a grievable loss to all.
JMHO.

 

[bogusbrig]

I think the comments I leave here are helpful and not mean and evil, which is one reason I think it is funny to be thrown into the group of snotty etc. critics.

carry on...

You've made me go ouch on occasion.

But then I like a little evil in a woman.

 

[Angeline]

A few comments, just for y'all to consider:

1) Do any of you realize how many fledgling poets won't dare post a poem at lit because of comments like that that started this thread? Do any of you even care?

2) I don't post in this forum simply because I don't like the elitist attitudes that flow so easily from so many. "serious poet"...."they can't take critique"

What if I don't have a care in the world whether I'm a "serious poet" or not? Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?

Glass houses, folks, glass houses.

I don't post here because of those things, and I guarantee you I'm not the only one.

When my poem won it's category for November, it was IMMEDIATELY attacked, and the rating plummeted. Why? It was fine before it was mentioned, but I suppose that since I've not been rated a "serious poet" nothing I put out is worth anything.

C'mon, people. We're ALL putting our poetry out there. Critique is fine, and I have a fairly thick skin, but there's a HUGE difference between critique, and being an asshole.

Senna Jawa may know everything there is to know about poetry, but you know what? Who cares. He can't impart that knowledge in a way that can be used, so all he says is "pathetic."

Rant over. Start bombing everything I've written. I don't care.

If you really don't care, then why rant?

I don't give opinions on poems unless I'm asked for them. I respect that not everyone wants to be a "serious" poet, and I don't judge anyone on the basis of whether or not they do.

My poems get one-bombed all the time and yet I've never given a one to a poem in the almost four years I've been here. I've "lost" plenty of contests here (and elsewhere) and had many poems I've submitted elsewhere rejected. I've been told "No thanks" in a less than kind way many times. Sure it hurts sometimes, but I don't take it personally. I get over it.

I care about people's feelings. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I'm also not going to lie and say something is wonderful if I don't think it is. I do understand what you're saying about Senna's tone--I wouldn't put things that way myself, but realistically people need to recognize that when they post a poem online, they lose control over how readers are going to react to it. Neither I nor anyone here has any control over how anyone else gives feedback. There's no concerted effort to maintain an "in crowd." That's just ridiculous.

Most people on this forum bend over backwards to help those who post poems and ask for feedback. They're rarely thanked for their efforts. The vast majority of people here who give feedback--Eve, Anna, Rainman, jthserra, Tristesse, Rybka, and many others--do so in a kind and respectful way. I've seen this for years and still there are accusations of elitism. And none of these people comment on poems unless they're asked to or the comment option is on for a given poem.

There are lots of online poetry forums where all people do is praise each other's poems. If someone has that much ego invested in some online stranger's opinion--that it might be less than wonderful--they should seek out those places.

 

[cloudy]

If you really don't care, then why rant?

I said I didn't care if MY poems were bombed. I DO, however, care about the attitude expressed so casually here in the poetry forum by some, not all. There are some very helpful people here. There are some elitiest assholes, too. To pretend no one here is like that is laughable.

I can't believe that some are defending the "pathetic" comment! How damned rude does it have to be before someone cries foul???? Jeez. Fortunately, I have a thick skin, and don't mind calling someone on their rude comments, as recently when I was called an "eighth grader." Not everyone is like me, however, nor should they be.

I care because maybe, just maybe, there's a poet out there that has been hounded from this forum, and from lit, by that attitude.

People here should care, too, but apparently, if someone is a "serious poet" they should just take any and all abuse handed to them, yes?

eta: Angeline, most of what I've said isn't directed at you, or really at anyone in particular. I don't post here much, and I've explained why, but I do notice that you, and others, offer critiques in a way that provides guidance, and doesn't tear a fledgling poet down. It is appreciated. Not everyone is like you and those others, unfortunately, and obviously delight in being assholes, as if it somehow props their own fragile egos up. Who knows.

 

[Guest]

I should've never started anything like this and said I wasn't going to come back. I always come back. I had to come back to these ridiculous comments. Being it was after 1am when I started the thread, I thought I could be wrong and shouldn't have said anything, but after waking up and reading "thank you" emails" for starting this thread, I feel even more confident that I'm right. It's just a shame those won't come in to speak their mind as well. I've only seen one person. Gee, it makes one wonder why with sarcastic comments like these below. Who'd want to?!

...is giving her a meaningful feedback (instead of joining your useless comment).

The poem you commented on and the one I'm speaking of was the first I read from Una. After getting an email from her, thanking me for the little constructive criticism I gave, she obviously very much appreciated it. I then decided to comment on her other poems by going into a little more detail. Again, she was very appreciative. She has another poem up that I didn't comment on yet, but I feel I was encouraging to this new poet where you were not.

You could've at least said something nice to this person such as "Keep writing" or "You can do it." something along those lines, or add a simple smilie face in your review to let her know you meant no harm. But I really don't think you have any class to do so. I wonder if it gives you a boner being cruel to others. And after all this time, I honestly believe you're the anonymous "crapola" guy.

After reading your bullshit threads for almost 3 years (Yes, I'm an alt of many) I guess I finally had enough of your conceited crap to want to say something. Jesus Christ! I know many of us poets are very competitive, but you?? Good Lord! You've gone overboard.

Do you think she'll want to come back after this?
She doesn't have to go away in the first place. If she's serious about poetry, she will appreciate my comment. If not then so be it. She is adult, responsible, there is no need to cry.

There is nothing to appreciate. You did nothing to help her in my opinion. She's going to look at the cruel words first. Well, maybe I shouldn't speak for her, but for me, I know I would being new to any poetry site.

Does it say "Be kind" in reviewing/commenting on Lit? Of course not. But have some damn class and respect for yourself. Think about how you'd want to be treated as a new poet sharing your work. Prehaps you didn't have a good experience yourself when you started, therefore, you want to deal out the same. I don't know.

Are you afraid she might improve and take you out of the fucking limelight or something?
(What limelight?!!) Yeah, sure If that was my preoccupation then I would live her to you, Saldne, so that she would stagnate for sure.

This made me laugh. That's all I have to say. You know nothing about me, pal. You've got another boner now. I know. This excites you to no end.

You should be ashamed of yourself for not giving any encouraging words to this new poet on Lit.
I did encourage her by reading her poem, by being serious about her poem (not like you), and by giving her a solid, meaningful feedback. Now she may follow up my comment, she is in a position to ask sensible questions, and so on. For instance, she may ask me about the "Etc. etc." in my comment, because, in a contrast to you, I am responsible--when I write "etc." there is indeed "etc." (read: there are more problems with the poem than I have listed in my comment).

Reading someone's poem does not mean you've been encouraging. You've got to be kidding me. Look up the word.

1.) furnishing support and encouragement
2.) giving courage or confidence or hope

Please point out where you were encouraging to this new poet. By saying "ect, ect." was prehaps laziness. Yeah, right, she's going to follow up with your comment. <grins> You want her to bow down to you, huh? Why didn't you finish if you felt there was more to say? And God forbid if you had.

Now I feel like I'm venting in public like twelveoone. But you know what? I'm not coming back to this thread. I'm done.
I understand. After all, you post on Literotica 16.6 times per day, you need a breather.

Not that I have to explain myself but I feel no shame in saying that I'm disabled, have children in school all day, and if I find being here enjoyable, then this is where I'll be. And I had a breather. I finally told off some conceited assmunch after all these years. I'm breathing mighty fine, babe.

I just had to say you're fucking rotten.
So you are the second person that just has voted 1 on my "achilles". Oh, how simple (simplistic) this is

A little paranoid, I see - just like you were with Liar. I didn't comment or vote on your poem because I didn't see you had a poem up. But I'll certainly check it out, hon. I know you like the attention, people reading your work, and counting every person who does. I can be completely honest in my review ignoring the person's personality who wrote the poem. I just don't have to like YOU - not your work. They are separate.

Anyway, all poems should be treated objectively, regardless of the status of their author being "new" or "regular" or a favorite of Saldne. Also, we have right to our opinions without being exposed to the brutal abuse of language (to say the least) as practiced by Saldne.

Abuse of language as practiced by saldne?? (lowercase) Well, I guess you just met your match. (in a sense) But I have a little more class than you. It just took me a while to speak my mind. No regrets here.

 

[Liar]

Cloudy,

What I don't understand is why equally mean (and worse) comments on stories doesn't seem to cause authors to not dare submit them.

"What kind of worthless pliee of SHIT is this!?"

That's my latest email on a story I wrote. Every time I browse around among stories on this site, I see brutal, mean-spirited and hurtful comments. Now, IO haven't been keeping up with the comings and gopings in the Story Feedback forum... is the same debate raging here as there?

Point is, there is rudeness everywhere. Why is it more terrible when it happens among poets?

 

[TheRainMan]

1) Do any of you realize how many fledgling poets won't dare post a poem at lit because of comments like that that started this thread? Do any of you even care?

Yes, cloudy.

I do.

2) I don't post in this forum simply because I don't like the elitist attitudes that flow so easily from so many. "serious poet"...."they can't take critique"

What if I don't have a care in the world whether I'm a "serious poet" or not? Who decides who is a "serious poet" and who isn't?

In my experience, the great majority of the comments from what I consider good writers are very polite, and attempt to be constructive.

There is certainly a big difference between constructive criticism and blatant ill manners --

but I really don't get the 'elitist attitude' comment of yours. Unless you consider the offering of opinion or suggestion in either a pleasant or neutral tone 'elitism.'

I don't post here because of those things, and I guarantee you I'm not the only one.

If I recall, you had a poem here not long ago that was lavished over by your friends (most of whom came only to read your poem, and no one else's). Flyguy expressed shock at their praise (instead of judging your poem), and he did apologize for that. I chose not to leave a comment on the poem, since it was being drooled over not for its quality, but because you are probably a good friend and a nice person, which you truly seem to be.

If that type of praise pleases you and you think it reflects the true quality of your writing, that's fine with me, and most others, I'm sure.

When my poem won it's category for November, it was IMMEDIATELY attacked, and the rating plummeted. Why? It was fine before it was mentioned, but I suppose that since I've not been rated a "serious poet" nothing I put out is worth anything.

If you are looking for fair judgement, you have every right to complain about being bombed by low votes unjustly, as long as you also complain about being bombed by high ones unjustly.

C'mon, people. We're ALL putting our poetry out there. Critique is fine, and I have a fairly thick skin, but there's a HUGE difference between critique, and being an asshole.

There most certainly is.

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy,

What I don't understand is why equally mean (and worse) comments on stories doesn't seem to cause authors to not dare submit them.

"What kind of worthless pliee of SHIT is this!?"

That's my latest email on a story I wrote. Every time I browse around among stories on this site, I see brutal, mean-spirited and hurtful comments. Now, IO haven't been keeping up with the comings and gopings in the Story Feedback forum... is the same debate raging here as there?

Point is, there is rudeness everywhere. Why is it more terrible when it happens among poets?

Good question.

One thing may be that the rude comments you usually receive on a story are anonymous, and usually they have nothing to do with the story, itself. As in one of my favorites "you sick fuck!"

Poetry is something I've never done well, nor do I have any pretensions about my poetry. The few I've written, though, are dragged, kicking and screaming, out into the open, and that may be the case with many folks who try their hand at poetry. I agonize much more over a poem than I do a story. I have no idea why, though.

I think another thing is what I mentioned above. Someone leaves a useless comment, critique-wise, and even worse, is as rude as they can be about it, and then is DEFENDED by others as "helping" the poet. I haven't seen that particular phenomenon in the AH.

 

[Liar]

Place high on the top list, win a monthly contest, of get an E or early H rating, and anybody's poem will get attacked and bomb.

At least mine does, and I'm supposedly part of the in-crowd here.

Just fer de record.

 

[Angeline]

I said I didn't care if MY poems were bombed. I DO, however, care about the attitude expressed so casually here in the poetry forum by some, not all. There are some very helpful people here. There are some elitiest assholes, too. To pretend no one here is like that is laughable.

I can't believe that some are defending the "pathetic" comment! How damned rude does it have to be before someone cries foul???? Jeez. Fortunately, I have a thick skin, and don't mind calling someone on their rude comments, as recently when I was called an "eighth grader." Not everyone is like me, however, nor should they be.

I care because maybe, just maybe, there's a poet out there that has been hounded from this forum, and from lit, by that attitude.

People here should care, too, but apparently, if someone is a "serious poet" they should just take any and all abuse handed to them, yes?

eta: Angeline, most of what I've said isn't directed at you, or really at anyone in particular. I don't post here much, and I've explained why, but I do notice that you, and others, offer critiques in a way that provides guidance, and doesn't tear a fledgling poet down. It is appreciated. Not everyone is like you and those others, unfortunately, and obviously delight in being assholes, as if it somehow props their own fragile egos up. Who knows.

I know.

I get annoyed sometimes, too. Can you tell?

But Senna is just Senna. And the others who come off sounding like they know the one right way to do it--that says more about them and their issues than anyone they seem to belittle. I wish more people could keep that in perspective.

I'm just venting, too.